@Nezan

The 12 apostles never heard of the trinity, the Jews rejected the religion of their Roman occupiers, so the apostles rejected the doctrine too.

Evidence PROVING that Ignatius never believed Jesus was God:

But shun divisions, as the beginning of evils. Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment.

Crocus also, worthy both of God and you, whom we have received as the manifestation of your love to us, hath in all things refreshed me, and "hath not been ashamed of my chain," as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will also refresh.


The Shocking Facts about Ignatius:

(1). He never mentions the four Gospels.

(2). He never mentions the trinity.

(3). He is the first to record a physical resurrection.

(4). He is the first to mention Jesus in physical form.

(5). He is the first to use the word ‘gospel’ outside the NT.

(6). All of his epistles are acknowledged to be forgeries.

The Church fathers rejected the “divinity” of Jesus:

Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E.,[/b] called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is "other than the God who made all things." [b]He said that Jesus was inferior to God and "never did anything except what the Creator . . . willed him to do and say."

Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E.[/b], called Jesus in his prehuman existence [b]"a creature" but called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.

Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E.,[/b] said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . [b]But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.

Origen, who died about 250 C.E[/b]., said that [b]"the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light.


Waiting for your rebuttal, Sir Nezan

@Nezan


Let us expose Ignatius you have been suporting all these while. Take time to read the truth please and judge yourself.

Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, was a student of the Apostle John. Prior to being martyred in A.D. 107, Ignatius penned or dictated seven letters. His writings drip with language about the divinity of Jesus:

Ignatius, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia; a church, forever united and chosen, through real suffering, by the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God, Being imitators of God, you have, once restored to new life in the Blood of God, perfectly accomplished the task so natural to you. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Ephesians, prologue and chapter 1)

Once again, thank you so much for displaying your ignorance here. It was in Antioch the name 'christian' was first given and started. Mind you, Pagan was first called that name before you accepted same

There is only one Physician –
Very flesh, yet Spirit too;
uncreated, and yet born;
God-and-Man in One agreed,
Very-Life-in-Death indeed,
Fruit of God and Mary’s seed;
At once impassible and torn
By pain and suffering here below:
Jesus Christ, whom as our Lord we know.
(Ignatius, Epistle to the Ephesians, chapter 7)

Jesus Christ our God was conceived by Mary of the seed of David and of the Spirit of God, The age-old empire of evil was overthrown, for God was now appearing in human form to bring in a new order, even life without end. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Ephesians, chapters 18 and 19)

All perfect happiness in Jesus Christ our God, to you who are bodily and spiritually at one with all His commandments, (Ignatius, Epistle to the Romans, prologue)

Leave me to imitate the Passion of my God. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Romans, chapter 6)

Glory be to Jesus Christ, the Divine One, (Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, chapter 1)

Farewell always in our God Jesus Christ. (Ignatius, Epistle to Polycarp, chapter

This last quotation is especially noteworthy. Here Ignatius is writing to another disciple of the Apostle John, Polycarp the Bishop of Smyrna. If Ignatius were making a doctrinal error in calling Jesus God, surely Polycarp would have corrected him. However, we see the opposite occur: after Polycarp received this letter and copies of the other letters penned by Ignatius, Polycarp had them copied and circulated to the various churches in the region – in essence validating their doctrinal content!

WHO IS IGNATIUS SEF?

St. Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch after Saint Peter and St. Evodius, who died around AD 67. Eusebius records that St. Ignatius succeeded St. Evodius. Making his apostolic succession even more immediate, Theodoret (Dial. Immutab., I, iv, 33a) reported that Peter himself appointed Ignatius to the see of Antioch.

St. Ignatius is one of the Apostolic Fathers (the earliest authoritative group of the Church Fathers). He based his authority on being a bishop of the Church, living his life in the imitation of Christ . Assuming that all the writings attributed to him were authentic, in none of them is there an equality of Father, Son, and holy spirit.

Ignatius DID NOT in anyway states that Holy Spirit was equal to God nor Son equal to father but that Jesus is in subjection to God.

Ignatius calls Almighty God “the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son,” showing the distinction between God and His Son.He speaks of “God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” And he declares: “There is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son.”

Ignatius shows that the Son was not eternal as a person but was created, for he has the Son saying: “The Lord [Almighty God] created Me, the beginning of His ways.” Similarly, Ignatius said: “There is one God of the universe, the Father of Christ, ‘of whom are all things;’ and one Lord Jesus Christ, our Lord, ‘by whom are all things.’” He also writes:

“The Holy Spirit does not speak His own things, but those of Christ, . . . even as the Lord also announced to us the things that He received from the Fathe[/b]r. For, [b]says He [the Son], ‘the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father’s, who sent Me.’”

“There is one God who manifested himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his Word which proceeded from silence and in every respect pleased him [God] who sent him. . . . Jesus Christ was subject to the Father.”

However, are the 15 letters attributed to Ignatius accepted as authentic? In The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, editors Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson state:[/b]

[b]“It is now the universal opinion of critics, that the first eight of these professedly Ignatian letters are spurious. T[b]hey bear in themselves indubitable proofs of being the production of a later age . . . and they are now by common consent set aside as forgeries.”[/b]

The original followers of Jesus were never called Christians. They were called Nazarenes The gospels showed that the Galilean was normally referred to as Jesus the Nazarene (Mark 1:24; John 18:5). Most modern New Testament translations render this as "Jesus of Nazareth" but the former represents the more common form of words in the original Greek version. (online Source)

The earliest followers of Jesus were known as Nazarenes, and perhaps later, Ebionites, and form an important part of the picture of Palestinian Jewish groups in late 2nd Temple times.

The Ebionite/Nazarene movement was made up of mostly Jewish/Israelite followers of John the Baptizer and later Jesus, who were concentrated in Palestine and surrounding regions and led by "James the Just" (the oldest brother of Jesus), and flourished between the years 30-80 C.E. (1)

The Nazarenes and Ebionites are by all the Church historians unanimously acknowledged to have been the first Christians, or those who believed in Christ among the Jews with which, his own people, he lived and died, they having been the witness of his actions, and of whom were all the Apostles. (John Toland, The Nazarenes, p. 6)

The Jesus movements which started in Galilee during the 30s and 40s were Jewish; they rejected the divinity of Jesus long before Constantine appeared on the scene. Shamoun is referring to the Pauline Christians, who are not the true Christians of Jewish descent.

In 325 A.D., the famous Council of Nicea was held. The doctrine of the Trinity was declared to be the official doctrine of the Pauline Church, and one of the consequences of this decision was that out of the three hundred or so Gospels extant at that time, four were chosen as the official Gospels of the Church. The remaining Gospels, including the Gospel of Barnabas, were ordered to be destroyed completely. It was also decided that all Gospels written in Hebrew should be destroyed. An edict was issued stating that would found in possession of an unauthorised Gospel would be put to death.

“…With the development, formulation and official acceptance in 325 A.D. of the doctrine of Trinity…The four accepted Gospels were selected and all the other Scriptures written after Jesus’ birth were banned. [/b]

Constantine signed the decree at the Council of Nicea which transformed Jesus into God![b][/b]

The bishop Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, and Iranaeus were pagan converts to Christianity, it is obvious for them to deify Jesus, because they worshipped a man-god aforetime.

@Nezan

You stubbornly refused to read my earlier post dealing with the Trinity. As an intelligent mind, I dont repeat myself rhetorically but engage new issues.

I didnt not see that sir and you could do a re-poste here. Meanwhile, you could attempt this:

Does your trinity has any biblical backing?

Was it preached by any of the OT prophets?

Did Jesus preach Trinity?

If your Jesus is God, who did he pray to when he learnt that they wanted to kill him?

Now I know you are not been sincere. Even the earliest Church fathers believed in the Trinity:

Let us see who is not being sincere. Was it preached before before and do early christians preach same. Do you care to tell me OT prophets that preached same and when done, I would post here unitarians that didnt support your false and man made doctrines.

In The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, we find that the Holy Spirit is alive and is a person:

As surely as God lives, as Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Ghost also (on whom are set the faith and hope of God’s elect), (The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, chapter 58)

You further nailed yourself. You claimed in the first epistle. Do we have that of Clement in the bible/ I thought Davidylan and Noetic claimed that they do not believe what is outside the bible!! If the above holds water, why is it not included in your bible?

Note that this passage tells us that (1) the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, but rather is alive (he "also" lives) and (2) the Holy Spirit is a person not an "it" ("on whom" our hopes are set, not "on which".

Hold sir. Holy spirit is God's active force and that is what God strenghtened Jesus with. Jesus couldnt do anything by himself but by God's intervention through sending of Holy spirit and that doesnt mean that Holy Spirit is equal to God, Holy Spirit is God's messenger that carries message for Him.

The introduction to the edition I read explains that this epistle "is one of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament,

Further nailing . Why is it outside the bible and not part of the bible since it is very important?

Of the authenticity of this epistle there is no doubt. Its author was the Clement who is mentioned fourth (after Peter, Linus and Anencletus) in the most reliable lists of the Bishops of Rome, The date of the epistle is generally reckoned to be about A.D. 96."

Where is this in the bible so I go read? Why is this important doctrine not included in your book?


Let me stop in order to respond to the claim by Ignatius.

@Nezan


Pathetic if that is all you could up with after exposing the prophecies falsely attributed to Jesus and TRINITY which you couldnt explain. Your case is not an exception because I remembered tutoring Davidylan on Zechariah when he brought it to deceive me.

Whether you like it or not, the Trinity doesnt act independently. Jesus cannot act outside of the Triune. His actions has to be in complete harmony with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Since you are stubbornly supporting trinity, why not attempt those questions posed at you rather than beating around the bush.

I read that sin against the son of man has forgiveness but that of holy spirit doesnt. Could you explain that if they are equal.

Why was God Jesus that created trees not aware of season to the extent of cursing a fig tree?

Why did Jesus say, 'why called me good, none is GOOD EXCEOT GOD?

Why are you suddenly afraid of discussing satanic verses here?

Well, I can see that you are a newbie hence you response that I became suddenly afraid. If you care to know, Babs has never been because Allah has promised and its happening. Christians say you will never gain paradise unless you become a xtian, Allah says its their vain desire, let them produce their proof if they are honest and you have displayed that for the fact you couldnt defend DOCTRINE OF TRINITY you have been displaying since.

I know you people of diverting threads when you have been corned, let us leave this as it is and create a thread for Muhammed (saw) and I will engage you.

@Nezan

What about the famed satanic verses?

Create a thread for that please and assist Salman Rushdie

@Nezan


Create whatever thread you want to and I would come. You may also provide rebuttal to my posts.

Cheers

@Nezan

Did Matthew write the gospel really?
If Jesus could solely forgive sin without God's intervention, why did he say in John 8:28 that "I do nothing of myself"?

Kola Oloye exposed the verses in which you failed to in order to cover you claim.

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and[b] that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. [/b]

Did you see that, care to explain that to me?

Now, you tell me the origin of the satanic verses in the koran

I am tired of saying it over again, create a thread and I promise that Jarus would not provided you provide your facts and even if you do not, he would still not because I believe you are very ignorant of that.

@Nezan

Jesus came to FULFILL the scriptures, NOT TO QUOTE scriptures

What scriptures and do you care to furnish where OT prophets preached TRINITY?

The solution is simple when we learn that according to Jewish custom any part of a day, however small, is included as part of a full day. "Since the Jews reckoned part of a day as a full day, the 'three days and three nights' could permit a Friday crucifixion." This phenomena is exemplified in scripture in the book of Esther. "Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way," (Esther 4:16 ). Then, in Esther 5:1 it says, "Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace in front of the king’s rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace." We can see that even though the three days and nights had not been completed, Esther went in to see the King on the third day even though she said to fast for three days and nights. We see that "on the third day" is equivalent to "after three days."

Additionally, Mark 8:31 says, "And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." Yet, 1 Cor. 15:4 says, "and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." Also, Luke 24:5-7, "and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, 'Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'" Here we can see that "after three days" is equivalent to mean "on the third day."

Therefore, we can see that because of the Jewish usage of counting any part of a day as the whole of the day, the term "three days and nights" is idiomatic and not literal.

You love beating around the bush. I asked ytou a very simple question but you went telling me tales by moonlight


I have engaged one of you on same issue and I would still enage you as well.

You know that your scriptures gave the time he was crucified. Was it in the 3rd hour or 6th hour and kindly interprete the meaning for me?

What exact day was he crucified as we all know that they start their next day from evening (the night before the next day) because one of your folks told me it was thurday and you should note that he rose on Sunday morning.

Mind you it was not literal as that is how the jews, arabs calculate their day

So do justice to that sir.

After defending my own

What have you defended sir?

, can you tell me more about the satanic verses in the koran?

Create a thread for that and I would oblige you and I promise that no locking of the thread.


You murdered sleep, Babs is still coming

@Nezan

He was taken from prison and from judgement, and who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off out of the living

The verse you quoted above is Isaiah 53:8, it finds its fulfillment in Matthew 27:

You even nailed yourself up. Was Jesus taken out of prison?

Go siddon . I have exposed that verse and it has nothing to do with Jesus. It was for Israel. Read it very well and you would see that it has nothing to do with Jesus.

"Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say." And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He did not answer. Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"

"But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death. But the governor said to them, "Which of the two do you want me to release for you?" And they said, "Barabbas." PIlate said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all said, "Crucify Him!" An he said, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they kept shouting all the more, saying, "crucify Him!"

"When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified." (Matthew 27:11-13, 20-26)

Where was he taken out of prison in the above verses sir Nezan

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong.


This verse is Isaiah 53:12. Beyond doubt, Isaiah 52:12-53:13 refers to Messiah Jesus. He is the one highly exalted before whom kings shut their mouths. Messiah is the shoot who sprung up from the fallen Davidic dynasty. He became the King of Kings. He provided the ultimate atonement.

It did not refer to Jesus in actual sense because spoil was not divided and it further exposed your falsehood, it referred to Israel.


Coming

@Nezan

I believe you did not read through my rigorous thesis? You shouldnt have been asking that question.

What rigorous thesis that have bben dealt with are you talking about?

For us Christians, the Bible flows, that is why you can not take a verse in isolation, the meaning will imply itself from the following verses.

Really, you didnt quote in isolation when you ignored John 10 v 29 that says God is greater than I and started from verse 30

That was why Jesus fulfilled the scriptures that were even written in the O.T.

What scriptures, could you tell where OT prophets preached DOCTRINE OF TRINITY?

As for abrogation, our God never claim to have three daughters and recanted, show me the abrogated verses and I will open up again on what you muslims hate to discuss- the satanic verses

Kindly create a thread for and you would asist Salman Rushdie.

Your people have been deleting my posts on that, you know?

Opsss. My posts have been deleted as well. Create a thread for that and I promise that Mod would not delete it.


You murdered sleep Nezan. Still coming

@Nezan



We read in John 1:1 that in the beginning Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.


John 1 v 1:


Can you tell me the meaning of the God used in John 1v 1?

Little wonder Jehovah Witness are not in agreement with them in that area. They used 'a god' and they have been saying that Jesus is a lesser god, 'TON THEON'

Can you still explain the meaning of
TON THEON
HO THEOS
and
O THEOS

We will also compare

Exodus 7 v 1 where God made Moses god to Pharaoh

Psalm 82 v 6: I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High

and relate the meaning of God therein whether it is TO THEON or HO THEON and has any relationship with that of John 1 v 1



The Greek term used by the anonymous author of the Fourth Gospel for “word” is logos. In doing so, the author identifies Jesus with the pagan logos of Greek philosophy, who was the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.
The concept defined by the term logos is also found in India, Egyptian and Persian Philosophical and Theological systems. (new encyclopaedia Britannica vol.7 p.440)

The idea of the logos in Greek thought may be traced back at least to the 6th-centrury-BC philosopher, Heracleitus, who proposed that there was a logos in the cosmic process analogous to the reasoning power in man. Later, the Stoics(Stoics were philosophers who followed the teaching of the thinker Zeno of Citicum- 4th-3rd century BC) defined the logos as an active, rational and spiritual principle that permeated all reality. they called the logos providence, mixture, god, and soul of the universe. The Greek-speaking Jewish philosopher, Judaeus Philo of Alexandria (15BC – 45 CE), taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and Cosmos, Being both the agent between God and the Cosmos, being both the agent of creation and the agent through which the human mind can comprehend God. According to Philo and the middle Platonists philosophers who interpreted in religious terms the teaching of the 4th- century-BC Greek master Philosopher immanent in the word and at the same time the transcendent divine mind. (new encyclopaedia vol.7p440).
The writings of Philo were preserved and cherished by the Church, and provided the inspiration for a sophisticated Christian philosophical theology. He departed from Platonic thought regarding the logos (word) and called it “the first begotten son of God”.

There is also John 10:30 where Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” We can see from scripture that although Jesus is God, just as the Father is God, the Father holds a higher ‘office’ than the Son. This does not mean that the Father is God and the other persons of the Trinity are not. Just as an earthly father is equally human with, but holds a higher office than his son, even so the Father and the Son in the Trinity are equal in essence, but different in function. In like manner, we speak of the president of our country as being a greater man, not by virtue of his character, but by virtue of his position. Therefore, Jesus cannot ever be said to say that He considered Himself anything less than God by nature.

Oga, why not quit this game. Read from verse 29 that says:

" My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL,

Since you claimed that Jesus is God because he said He and father are one, kindly explain this to me:

John 17v 20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE".


Still coming[color=#990000][/color]

@Nezan

We have verses where Jesus called himself son of man and not God

This sounds like some kind of contradiction at first glance, but in fact there is no contradiction. An examination of Scripture reveals that the phrase "Son of Man" carries broad significance.

First of all, even if the phrase “Son of Man” is a reference to Jesus' humanity, it is not a denial of His deity. By becoming a man, Jesus did not cease being God. The incarnation of Christ did not involve the subtraction of deity, but the addition of humanity. Jesus clearly claimed to be God on many occasions (Matthew 16:16,17; John 8:58; 10:30). But in addition to being divine, He was also human (see Philippians 2:6-. He had two natures (divine and human) conjoined in one person.

Further, Scripture indicates that Jesus was not denying His deity by referring to Himself as the Son of Man. In fact, it is highly revealing that the term “Son of Man” is used in Scripture in contexts of Christ's deity. For example, the Bible says that only God can forgive sins (Isaiah 43:25; Mark 2:7). But as the “Son of Man,” Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). Likewise, Christ will return to earth as the “Son of Man” in clouds of glory to reign on earth (Matthew 26:63-64). In this passage, Jesus is citing Daniel 7:13 where the Messiah is described as the "Ancient of Days," a phrase used to indicate His deity (cf. Daniel 7:9).

Further, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the “Son of God” (Matthew 26:63), He responded affirmatively, declaring that He was the “Son of Man” who would come in power and great glory (verse 64). This indicated that Jesus Himself used the phrase “Son of Man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.

Finally, the phrase “Son of Man” also emphasizes who Jesus is in relation to His incarnation and His work of salvation. In the Old Testament (Leviticus 25:25-26, 48-49; Ruth 2:20), the next of kin (one related by blood) always functioned as the "kinsman-redeemer" of a family member who needed redemption from jail. Jesus became related to us “by blood” (that is, He became a man) so He could function as our Kinsman-Redeemer and rescue us from sin.

Can you tell me where he said he was God?


Coming please

@Nezan

This statement by Jesus before his death on the cross shows us two things. Those words are a direct quotation from Psalms 22. Christ himself saw the numerous prophecies about him filling this portion of scripture which was written by David:

Ok let us read

Psalm 22:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [a]

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me [b] in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

We saw thed work of 'scribes' trying to falsely link pophecies to Jesus in which case it was not for him. The above was for David.

His incarnation would enable him to minister to other humans and to become the perfect sacrifice for their sins (22:22; Heb. 2:12, 17).

At his crucifixion, his garments would be divided and gambled for (22:18; Matt. 27:35).
On the cross he would:
echo David’s cry of anguish (22:1; Matt. 27:46)
be ridiculed (22:7-8; Matt. 27:42-43)
suffer the piercing of his hands and feet (22:16; Luke 24:39-40)
be publicly stared at (22:13, 17; Matt. 27:39, 47)
In general, 22:1-26 foreshadows Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, while 22:27–31 foreshadows his millennial reign.
Psalms 22 was written roughly 600 years before Jesus’ birth. What’s interesting to note is that crucifixion hadn’t even been invented yet. It was the Phoenicians who came up with the mode of execution and the Romans who had borrowed it from them. During the time that Rome occupied Israel, they had used it as the form of capitol punishment for the Jews who had up until that time performed executions by stoning.

Something else about this moment of Jesus’ agonizing crucifixion. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, it says that “for our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” Also in Galations 3:13 it says “Christ redeemed us, by becoming a curse for us.” In other words the only perfect human being who ever walked the face of the earth, the only man who never knew sin, became the sin of the world on the cross. That is what is meant when it is said that he became the sacrifice for us or that he is the lamb that was slain. He was innocent yet murdered as a criminal.

It is written in Hab. 1:13 that God’s eyes are too pure to see evil or to look upon wrongdoing. Therefore, it is possible that when Jesus became sin for the world on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), that even the Father could not look upon him. It is likely that this was the moment that Christ cried out. I don’t think it is within our minds as humans to understand what this must have felt like. The one man who had lived his entire life in constant service, obedience and therefore sight of the Father, in his greatest service to humanity, was left in utter darkness.

One thing we can say with certainty. We have no ability to even begin to appreciate the utterly horrific experience that Jesus went through on the cross as he took upon himself the sins of the world. There was a physical pain that we cannot even imagine and a spiritual one we can never fathom.

Before I even explain your quotes up, I need your answers on:

1. Since he was God, why did he shout that 'why did you forsaken me'?
2 why did he say in Mark 10 v 18: Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."

also why did he say:
John 14 v 28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Also

If redemption through the blood of Christ, that one member of the Trinity, is all that is necessary for salvation, how are we to explain the many, many occasions in the Gospel that Jesus details the necessity of submitting directly to the One God - without ever mentioning the role of his (Jesus') redeeming blood?

@Nezan


I asked this:

Where did he claim to come and die for your sins

You replied:

From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Messiah. One prophet, Isaiah, described Him:

“Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:1-12). He likened the coming Sacrifice to a lamb, slaughtered for the sins of others.

Let us read the verses:

ISAIAH 53 V 1-12

1 Who has believed our message
       and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
       and like a root out of dry ground.
       He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
       nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
       a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
       Like one from whom men hide their faces
       he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
       and carried our sorrows,
       yet we considered him stricken by God,
       smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
       he was crushed for our iniquities;
       the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
       and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
       each of us has turned to his own way;
       and the LORD has laid on him
       the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
       yet he did not open his mouth;
       he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
       and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
       so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
       And who can speak of his descendants?
       For he was cut off from the land of the living;
       for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
       and with the rich in his death,
       though he had done no violence,
       nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
       and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
       he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
       and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
       he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
       by his knowledge [f] [b]my righteous servant will justify many,
       and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
       and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
       because he poured out his life unto death,
       and was numbered with the transgressors.
       For he bore the sin of many,
       and made intercession for the transgressors.

BTW, you people claim that he is not servant so come you are linking the verses to him?

The real prophecy starts at Isaiah 52 v 13 where God said that:[/b]

See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

[b]
The prophecy starts from 52 v 15 thus:[/color]

13 See, my servant will act wisely ;
       he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
       his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
       and his form marred beyond human likeness—

15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
       and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
       For what they were not told, they will see,
       and what they have not heard, they will understand.

It continued at Isaiah 53.


We need to identify who the Israel is here and we need to refer to some verses to get that.

Isaiah 41 v 8:"But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,


Isaiah 44 v 1 also states that "But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 45 v 4: For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me.


LET US SEE THE WORK OF MISCHIEF PEOPLE IN THE TRANSLATION OF YOUR BOOK AND LATER INSERTION and you would tell me which is correct.

ISAIAH 53 V 10-12

1

Greek Septuagint

The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed: the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities.


2nd

Hebrew translation

And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he shall have descendants [or, he shall see progeny], he shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand. From the toil of his soul he shall see [and he shall] be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, and their iniquities he shall carry. Therefore, I will allot him a portion among the multitudes, and with the mighty he shall share booty, because he has bared his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and he will [continue to] to intercede for the transgressors.


3rd

Christian Translation

Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was  numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.


Now wIth regards to later insertion, we read thus from NIV:

Isaiah 53 v 11: After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied.

But the footnotes states that:

Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint Masoretic Text does not have the light of life).

[color=#990000]The Christian scribes inserted the words “light of life” to support a Christian interpretation, by forgery and deceit.  [/b]

Christians reject the Septuagint, yet the New Testament writers used the Septuagint.
 
Christians reject the Septuagint, yet the sayings of Jesus were composed in Greek. 

The Old Testament of the Codex Sinaiticus is a Septuagint.

[b]Are you ok or need more?

Hundreds of years later, Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled in the perfect Lord Jesus, born of the virgin Mary. When the prophet John the Baptist saw Him, he cried, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). Crowds thronged Him for healing and teaching, but the religious leaders scorned Him. Mobs cried out, “Crucify Him!” Soldiers beat, mocked, and crucified Him. As Isaiah foretold, Jesus was crucified in between two criminals but was buried in a rich man’s tomb. But He didn’t remain in the grave. Because God accepted His Lamb’s sacrifice, He fulfilled another prophecy by raising Jesus from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 26:19).

Hold sir.


Jesus and his immediate followers were Pharisees. Jesus had no intention of founding a new religion. He regarded himself as the Messiah in the normal Jewish sense of the term, i.e. a human leader who would restore the Jewish monarchy, drive out the Roman invaders, set up an independent Jewish state, and inaugurate an era of peace, justice and prosperity (known as 'the kingdom of God,) for the whole world. Jesus believed himself to be the figure prophesied in the Hebrew Bible who would do all these things. He was not a militarist and did not build up an army to fight the Romans, since he believed that God would perform a great miracle to break the power of Rome. This miracle would take place on the Mount of Olives, as prophesied in the book of Zechariah. When this miracle did not occur, his mission had failed. He had no intention of being crucified in order to save mankind from eternal damnation by his sacrifice. He never regarded himself as a divine being, and would have regarded such an idea as pagan and idolatrous, an infringement of the first of the Ten Commandments. (Hyam Maccoby, The Problem of Paul)

Jesus had no foreknowledge of his failure and crucifixion. The Last Supper was a celebration with his closest disciples of his appearance as King and the imminent overthrow of the Roman power (Hyam Maccoby, Revolution in Judea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance)


Jesus was unwilling to be crucified:

Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."  (Matthew 26:38-39)


Hold please, coming

@Nezan

I promised to be back and expose the verses falsely attributed to Jesus and I here I respond to your posts.


Let me start on my questions on why he couldnt raise the dead and you provided rebuttal below:

Now you are really getting nuts. You mean because Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, he should have gone ahead to raise all dead people when he was on earth?

Point of correction oga, I have not said he should continue raising every dead person but asked you why he couldnt do that but had to ignore the dead. It showed that Jesus could not do anything on his own as he confessed in one of the verses and I would get to you and Kola Oloye there.

If Jesus is the beginning and end as you have been drumming, he should have gone there to wake the dead but it showed that he had to beg God first just like the case where he prayed more than three times to God to remove the cup from his head. He would have stood them without calling on his creatror if he has his own will but you forgot that he was sent by someone and came to do the will of that person as well. If we are to even go further, the bible portrayed him as a hypocrite for praying to God like that having forgotten how he himself told people to pray to God.

Let me tell you that mo never raised a dead man to life.

If you want to discuss Mohammed (saw), create a thread and I would oblige you. Not all prophets raise dead, Noah, Moses etc never did and a prophet did what Jesus never did in which his cloth touched the dead and was brought back to life (read your bible for that)

According to you, Jesus should continue raising dead people? Dont worry, He will do that when He comes to judge the world.

Number one, I have never said that so stop sounding like a weakling sir. I asked why didnt he wake that very dead which showed that he had limited power and has to beg God, seek his permission before doing anything.

Secondly, he would not judge thed world but the creator in which he begged when they wanted to kill and his sweat were like thick blood and also the person he shouted to on the cross that 'why has thou forsaken me' would judge the world.

If Jesus could solely forgive sin without God's intervention, why did he say in John 8:28 that "I do nothing of myself"?

That is part of what we have been saying all along, THE HOLY TRINITY, dude

Are you prepared for trinity sir?

Does your trinity has any biblical backing?

Was it preached by any of the OT prophets?

Did Jesus preach Trinity?

If your Jesus is God, who did he pray to when he learnt that they wanted to kill him?

In "The Dictionary of the Bible," John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899 bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:

"THE TRINITY OF GOD IS DEFINED BY THE CHURCH AS THE BELIEF THAT IN GOD ARE THREE PERSONS WHO SUBSIST IN ONE NATURE. THAT BELIEF AS SO DEFINED WAS REACHED ONLY IN THE 4th AND 5th CENTURIES AD AND HENCE IS NOT EXPLICITLY AND FORMALLY A BIBLICAL BELIEF.[/b]


[b]This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) Trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Jesus. The idea of "God the Son" is Babylonian paganism and mythology that was grafted into Christianity[/b]. Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the third century Church in Carthage, was the first to use the word "Trinity" when he put forth the theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father.

The Jews also reject the trinity, in addition to the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians never know about trinity doctrine at all. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet of God and against the trinity. [b]


Hold, still coming please

@Nezan

[bJesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:14)[/b]

Oga, let us discuss in a mature way. I asked why didnt he wake up the dead when his disciple told him about a dead person but rather told them that they should allow the dead to bury their dead?

“Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:1-12). He likened the coming Sacrifice to a lamb, slaughtered for the sins of others.

Note my highlighted words please and tell me how it referred to Jesus:


"When we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief, and we hid our faces from him: he was despised and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows, yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the punishment that brought us peace was upon him and with his stripes we are healed. All we, like sheep, have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way, but the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. [b]He was taken from prison and from judgement, and who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off out of the living. For the transgressions of my people was he stricken. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him. He has put him to grief: When you shall make his soul an offering (sacrifice) for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul and shall be satisfied. By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many (not ALL!), for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he has poured out his soul unto death and was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53).

Hundreds of years later, Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled in the perfect Lord Jesus, born of the virgin Mary. When the prophet John the Baptist saw Him, he cried, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). Crowds thronged Him for healing and teaching, but the religious leaders scorned Him. Mobs cried out, “Crucify Him!” Soldiers beat, mocked, and crucified Him. As Isaiah foretold, Jesus was crucified in between two criminals but was buried in a rich man’s tomb. But He didn’t remain in the grave. Because God accepted His Lamb’s sacrifice, He fulfilled another prophecy by raising Jesus from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 26:19).

He didnt even die let alone resurrecting. Can you do the 3 days and three nights calculation for me?

Please bear with me. I would be back later with detailed analysis and exposure of your write up

@Nezan

Mark 2.5ff: When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, "--A rather strong statement of divine authority, and the context SHOWS that it was a blasphemous assertion IF He was NOT God!. Notice that He does not answer their charges with a "Hold on now! I am not claiming to be God! I am claiming something less!"--not at all!

Did Matthew write the gospel really?
If Jesus could solely forgive sin without God's intervention, why did he say in John 8:28 that "I do nothing of myself"?

@Abuzola

It would be very fair of me if I didnt say one or two things with regards to the treatment of Muslims in NL.

I joined NL when I read how non muslims insult my prophet, misconstrue Islam and I have engaged the intelligent ones among them and Alhamdullillah, Allah is still by my side.

I feel what you you are going or what you may be going through and I can bet you that you may have attempted worse assuming you were here when sections were divided and debates were very hot but we muslims still stood our grounds and here we are today.

I can still bet it that you never know the reason a section was created for muslims and when when the prophet was termed 'great prophet' and the Quran 'great book'.

Relax man, two wrongs cannot make a right. I have known Mukina for years as well as Mustay and when Virgo challenged her being a Moderator and I can confidently tell you that Mukina is not what you may be thinking.

My posts have been deleted as well some Muslims here in this section in order to bring sanity and concentration on the OT.

Muslims do not post here again and prefer other section to this simply because they could not stomach the insults but we must still continue the Dawah regardless of what they do and they do that in order to divert threads when they have nothing sensible to ffer.
I could remember opening threads tagged 'strictly for Davidylan, No2atheism, Noetic,' in which none could stand the questions/debate and I am still available to christians if they need my attention.

Please thread softly and I Javalove asked you similar thing I asked on how a muslim should treat fellow Muslim openly, are we to expose, chastise fellow muslims openly before non muslims?

You do not put the sayings, doings of prophet into consideration in the course of your Dawah. No matter what Mukina might have done, you dont have to react the way you did openly to the extent of calling her names and saying you 'hate', very unacceptable and you should have used the word 'dislik' preferable because I see no reason why you should hate Allah's creation' .It is not even allowed to hate non muslims let alone Muslims!!

I would have loved to continue but my heart bleeds as a result of the way you over-reacted to your fellow Muslim.

May Allah forgive us all, make Dawah easier for us and increase our knowledge.

Maa Salam

@Nezan

Welcome once again dude. I like discussing with cool headed ones in which you happen to be one of them. I have forgotten giving you verses from your book to explain with regards to his deity but would do that we are rounding up our discussion.

This is a muslim forum, dont tell me you didnt see the thread on mo's poisoning.

I am very sorry sir. I have stumbled on it. Hope apology is accepted? . I have response from my brothers but if you are not satisfied, you let me know so I come in.

You are the one interpreting out of context. Can you show me a verse in the koran where mo even mentioned that every one who has seen him has seen the Father? Jesus was comfortable making this statement because he was one with the Father. No prophet ever made this claim.

Oga, if you want you and I to discuss Quran, kindly create a thread 'strictly for you and myself and I would oblige'. Besides, I dont fancy diversion of threads so as to grab, understand and work towards the same direction. We at most times agree to disagree.

Once again, welcome to my world if this is all you could say to all I pose to you and I would still rephrase it again and am using this medium to beg to always give me.

This is your quote

Jesus was clearly conscious of his deity and deliberately made that awareness known to others. Jesus identified himself so closely with the Father as to imply that he (Jesus) is God (which the Jews at that time would have understood as Yahweh). He made this association in many ways, including these:2

I asked you to give me where he was conscious of his deity and made same known but no response on that till now

Now back to your quote:

You are the one interpreting out of context. Can you show me a verse in the koran where mo even mentioned that every one who has seen him has seen the Father? Jesus was comfortable making this statement because he was one with the Father. No prophet ever made this claim.

I have never done that but you did. You were quick at giving me John 14 v 7 but ignored
the part where Jesus said God was greater than him.

Muhammed (saw) didnt say that and that does not prove his deity. He made the assertion because he was doing God's work and following His command and anybody that believes in him has seen the father in the sense that, that person has seen God' work. It is like when people say that they are seeing God in you meaning that they are seeing His miracle, work in you and that they are seeing it you are worshipping Him, that He is being there for you. So also the case of Jesus when he made that statement that he happened to be His ambassador and anybody that sees him has seen his creator because they work hand in hand (doing the work he sent him). Since you are hellbent on Jesus being God because he said anybody that sees him has seen the father, you forgot that he said that nobody can come to him except father draws him (any further explanation to that?).

We have verses where Jesus called himself son of man and not God.

Dont twist that verse, please. Jesus specifically said anybody who has seen him has seen the Father. Again I repeat, who among the prophets ever made that assertion? Did mo ever said anybody who saw him saw God? NEVER, because Jesus is one with God.

Oga,since you dont want to read for comprehension, are you aware of another verse where Jesus said nobody has seen the father nor heard his voice at anytime? (I think you and I need to dig deep into your book since it happened to be first holy book).

Yes, he prayed for the disciples together with us believers to be one so that he will present us as his bride without sin before the Father on judgement day. That does not mean we are gods, are we?

Where did he claim to come and die for your sins? Please furnish me the biblical verse(s) please. I dey learn everyday . Since you claimed that he is God, why did he say God is greater than him?
Why did he begged, cried to God to save and his sweat were like thick blood?
Why did he cry that 'Why has thou forsaken me"
Why did he say that he couldnt do anything on his own?
Why did the sin against son of man has forgiven but that of holy spirit has no forgiveness?
Why is Jesus not aware of the judgement day?
Why is Jesus not aware of season (the fig tree scenario).

Sorry dude, we have scores to settle with regards to TRINITY and Deification of Jesus.

Good you said he represented God while on earth. It is quite true because he was forgiving people's sins while he was here. Which of the older prophets claimed to forgive sins? Did mo claim that? Jesus did all this because 'God came to dwelt with us'.

Dont mis-construe me sir. I meant that he happened to be ambassador, representative and that happened to all prophets as well and not only him.

Could you provide verses where he forgave sins?
Why couldnt he wake the dead and told his disciples that 'they should allow the dead to bury their dead?

Did mo ever called God father?

No sir.

Jesus bought us with his blood, [/quote

]in essence, presenting us to the Father as sons. 

Where sir (I love discussing using biblical and Quranic verses in most cases)?

We claim to be God's children because Jesus bought us with his blood for 'there is no way to God, except through Jesus'.

[Where did he claim to have died for you?
Where did he say that you would not gain paradise by not accepting him as your Lord and Savior

If there is no way to God except through Jesus, why did he tell someone to keep the commandment in order to have life?
Why did he tell someone to be like little child in order to gain paradise?

Assalamu alaikum, Abuzola,

Am afraid but I don't quite understand where you are driving to.

I dey corner dey watch too.

@Abuzola

I think you need to read 'the prophet's way of correcting people's mistakes' and when done, you learn how a muslim should treat fellow muslims publicly and the reward with regards to dealing with faults of muslims but all the same I still dey read from you and others. We learn everyday

Maa Salam.

@Noetic

The below caught my attention and felt as the most important

1. They are very un-objective. They dont want to discuss paedophilia, amputation, beheading, temporary marriages and other inhumane things in islam. They easily lock threads that discusses these issues, that constitutes e-terrorism.

Do you care to create threads for the emboldened words and we discuss?

@Nezan

How body bros?

Please remember to reply to my post on the thread on Mohammed's poisoning.

Kindly profer me the link sir

Jesus was clearly conscious of his deity and deliberately made that awareness known to others. Jesus identified himself so closely with the Father as to imply that he (Jesus) is God (which the Jews at that time would have understood as Yahweh). He made this association in many ways, including these:2

Hold it dude. You are one of those campaining for TRINITY and would be happy you are able to satisfy my curiosity whch would come in form of questions at the end of your write up here.

Lest I forget, could you show me where Jesus was conscious of his deity and made the awareness known?

To know Jesus is to know Yahweh: "If you knew me, you would know my Father also" (John 14:7).

Oga, who do you think you are deceiving here? Common man, dont lift out of context for me please. You intelligently left out part of the verses where JESUS said that GOD IS greater than him and if that should be the case, why are you still equating Jesus to God?

To see Jesus is to see Yahweh: "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).

Dude, in the book of Isaiah, we read that God is not author of confusion and also Peter said that there is no secret interpretation of the bible. If you you agree to the statement above, then you should not just bring verse ut of context or giving it wrong interpretation because it would not do you any good.

Now to the verse you gave your own interpretation, Jesus did not infer that you have seen God when you see him. He was trying to tell you that he was His ambassador and anything he says or does is wat his creator asked him to and he even made than known when he said that he was sent and could not do anything by himself and that as he hear, he judges for he did not come to do his will but that of the oe that sent him.

Jesus was telling us that he represented God through the message he brought from him and anybody that accept him, accept God. If you believe in Jesus, it means you have believe in God.

Have you forgotten that God is a spirit and those worshipping him must worship in same way, so how come Jesus is God when God is not a man and there are verses in your boo on that as well that God does not change (if you permit me, we would go into that together)?

To encounter Jesus is to encounter Yahweh: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me" (John 14:11).

Oga, RFLMAO. Are you also aware of another verse where Jesus said that the disciples are in him and that they might be one (I did not want to give you the verse because you already know it)?

To trust in Jesus is to trust in Yahweh: "Trust in God, trust also in me" (John 14:1).
As strict monotheists, many Jewish contemporaries of Jesus were outraged at his claims to divine authority. Their extreme reaction demonstrates that they understood Jesus to be claiming deity for himself.

Perfectly correct. He represented GOD on earth, he was sent by God and preached his message and anybody that accepted him, did that to the creator that sent hhim and that applies to all prophets. Trusting and believing in prophets is the same as beliving and trsuting in God that sent them.

If someone sends you a message to deliver and you did that perfectly and they believed you, is it not the same as believing and trusting the person that sent you because you did that on his behalf as well.

Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God (John 5:17-18).

Sir, if you are saying he is God just because he called God his father, what of the verse where he said that blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called sons of God?

Jesus' repeated insistence that he had an intimate and unique relationship to God the Father infuriated the crowds. Jesus didn't speak of God as "our Father," but as "my Father."

Was he the only one that called God 'father"? Why are you attaching different meaning to his own calling God, 'father'?

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him (John 8:58-59).

We would address this in due course but could you tell me why he didnt say efore Adam, Noah I was born?

When you serve rebuttal to my post, I would provide verses showing tha Jesus was never God and God is greater than him.

Have a fulfilled day.

@ahonohai

he came to fulfil what was written about him in these books
For your information, the Law refers to the "Torah" i.e the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy while the Prophets refer to the writings of the Old Testament Prophets

Good day sir. Please pardon my inquisitiveness. I be JJC and would like you to throw more light on how he fulfilled what was written in those books claimed by you.

Also I would appreciate if you could also tell me what was written about him in those books.

Thank and God bless sir.




@Nezan

The koran is just a plagiarization of Biblical accounts, Arabian fairy tales (the three daughters of allah) and rationalizations of the prosmiscous life of mohammed, nothing more.

Sir, do you care to create a thread for the above? We look at how the Quran plagiarized the bible, three daughters stuff and the life of the Holy Prophet.

Be my guest sir.

@Noetic & tubabie

It seems this thread is going to another stage but it is still ok by me. I would use one stone (my post) to kill two birds (Noetic and Tubabies' posts)

STOP PRESS!!!!

I just came across this thread and am not convinced with the discussion so far that a jinn can disguise as Jesus!
Will the OP and others who are knowledgeable about this issue comment with facts instead of just giving the characteristics of jinns.

You would read that in my response to Noetic.

Why would a jinn want to pose as Jesus?

Of course to deceive man which has been happening. We have heard stories of beings claiming to have seen Jesus in dreams in which one happened to a friend of mine (I relayed that in a story here) and another from a woman, now an evangelist in a church (name withheld). The Jinn use what you believe in to deceive you. The Jinn knows that most people already know who God is and the next is to deceive people using false means (christianity and please I owe nobody any apology as it has been proven and can still be proven between up-to-the task-christian and myself)

How would a muslim tell if its a farce?

Muslims have been doing that and there have been testimonies from exorcists on that. I also asked your brother to just tell me the pic of Jesus he knows or describe the one he knows and I would give him more than two pics and description. We would even start with a very popular pic of Jesus having long in which evidence showed that he was not having long hair.

"The Modern Student's Life of Christ," by Philip Vollmer, published some years ago by Fleming H. Revell Company.

"Archaeologists object to the conventional pictures of Christ because they are not true to History. A German painter, L. Fahrenkrog, says: 'Christ certainly never wore a beard and his hair was beyond a doubt closely cut. For this we have historical proof. The oldest representations, going back to the first Christian centuries, and found chiefly in the catacombs of Rome, all pictured him without a beard. All the Christ pictures down to the beginning of the fourth century at least, and even later, are of this kind'."[/b]
[b]
The busts of General Pompey, Julius Caesar, Caesar Augustus, Emperor Trajan, and King Herod Agrippa - all showed that short hair was the style. The article stated: "For example, on pages 126-127 of Avi-Yonah's work (A History of the Holy Land) are found busts of Pompey, Augustus, and one believed to be Herod - all with short hair. All statues and carvings of legionnaires show them with closely cropped hair. A Roman with long hair was an oddity as is - used to be the case for men in our society. In fact, all Roman Emperors before, during, and after the time of Christ, from Julius Caesar to Trajan, wore short hair. And the emperor was the individual who set the pattern in style and mode of dress for the whole empire."

Just like this verse:

"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" I Corinthians 11:14[b][/b]

Lest I forget, how come we have pic of Jesus but we dont have that of those after him? This further shows that Satan is at work.

And why are you convinced that Jesus can not appear to people and instead it is a jinn?

That should be left for God and not Jesus. If that would happen, it would be a voice,signs and a not so called pic when we cannot lay hands on a specific pic.

Please lets share facts and not dilly-dallying or derailment!

Yes and take time to read through my post.





@Noetic

Do u know how silly this sounds?

Yes would sound silly to you because you are inclined to falsehood.

The topic of this thread says "Beware of Jinn disguising as Jesus" and all I am asking u to do is simply to prove the misinformation. is that too hard?

Nope its not hard dude, but your question seems stupid to me just like atheists have been asking you to proof the existence of the Creator, claiming that we evolved from ape and BBT hogwash.

There is a thread specifically for Jinn where it is said that Jinn take different forms, shapes and can appear to being in these forms and shapes. Its like a situation where is movement from invisible state to visible. The Jinn being invisible can become visible when the jinn assumes a shape and a particular form just like when Satan, leader of Jinn appeared in the form of an old man during the battle of Badr and even told then how they could release themselves from him by reciting Ayatul Qursiyy.

We also read how angel Jibril came in form of a man ( a companion named Dihyan) to Mary. We also read how angel came in form of a man taking different forms to the prophet on different accounts

Conclusively, the above showed that Jinn being Satan tools could take the shape and form of anything and get to wherever he wants to within twinkling of an eye and a very good example is that of Suleiman (Solomon)

Its still the very same Holy spirit. Do u now agree that mohammed was a plagiarist?

Na wa o. Let me know when you finish deceiving yourself. How could Jesus talked of holy spirit when he said 'another', does that not portray another holy spirit?

Jesus said the comforter would not come if he did not go meaning that the comforter would be a fresh being. He said another paraclete meaning that he is also a paraclete and using the word 'another' means that the comforter would be like him, so how does holy spirit fits in?

@Osisi, Noetic

Allah asked him to go and learn from Christians and he's calling Christians stupid

Could you please post the verse here for all to read?

I wonder why you even count yourself as part of those mentioned therein when you belief in trinity and the early christians happened to be Unitarian, do not believe in Trinity or deification of Jesus.

@Noetic

You are playing dumb here. Do you have any pic of Jesus to show me or you describe the pic you have and I would show you more than one which shows that the pic you are having could not be real Jesus.

Since you claim that Jesus talked about Holy Spirit, how many are we having since one is already in existence?

@Dankol

hahahahahahaha , what should i serve you? bread and tea or which ever. I served you with the truth, and yet you still ask for another truth. you are such a funny fellow. well, like i said earlier, take your time and refute them, then commit your silly fallacy as you have been fond of. huh MR. BABS

It showed that you are not ready to learn and face the truth. If you are up to the challenge, serve them to me like bread and tea and we discuss. You well displayed your fallacy in which you have been crying all these while

@Dankol

I am not surprised because you displayed your part of the fallacies mentioned by your very self.

@Noetic

must u constitute a nuisance on every thread? if jinns according to u, act like Jesus, why not just prove it here?

U read me perfectly, could you supply me the pictures of real Jesus and when you do that, I would come up with different pics buttressing my saying.

Ridiculous.

Was the holy spirit that existed prior to man dwelling amongst all humans, as at the time of Jesus speech?

If mohammed is/was the comforter, why is he dead now? since he is supposed to also teach and inspire later day believers (like me) the way of Jehovah God.

This is called plagiarism.

Poor you. U get comprehension problem, he may be dead as a human being but his teachings remains and would be with us for ever hence Jesus saying that the spirit would abide with us forever.

@Noetic2

Jinn is a figment of allah's imagination. Jehovah God has/had no business with allah's jinns.
what I am interested in is the topic of discussion. How does a jinn represent Jesus? why not just establish that fact.

Could you supply the real picture of Jesus and we start from there?

comforter means Holy Spirit. Are u saying that mohammed is the Holy Spirit?

Really? When you interpreted it to be Holy Spirit as said by Jesus, has holy spirit not been in existence since creation? Jesus said he woud send 'another comforter'' which means that the comforter would be like him. How could you say he referred to holy spirit when same has beeen in existence and how many would we be having since Jesus said 'another comforter' which to you means[b] 'another holy spirit'[/b]?

Oya explain sir?

Toward a Good End

Allah's mercy embraces each and every thing in the universe. Almighty Allah enjoined people to perform righteous deeds in this world. If they do, He will consequently raise their ranks in the hereafter. Therefore, Muslims should be perseverant in obeying Him and should strive in worshipping Him. If they show patience in times of hardship, this will be for their own good in the hereafter. If they are thankful and grateful to Allah for the favors He bestows upon them, it would be good for them in the hereafter too. Allah says about such Muslims,

(Those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure.) (Az-Zumar 39:10)


Life is humans' wealth in this world. If they make good use of it, it will surely benefit them in the hereafter and their actions will be profitable. On the other hand, if they misuse their lives by committing sins and disobeying Allah until they meet Him in such a state, they will surely be losers. Those who have good sense should call themselves to account, before Allah calls them to account on the Day of Judgment. In the hereafter, those who committed sins in the worldly life will try to go faraway from them before these sins lead them to destruction in Hellfire.

Abandonment of sins and fear from Allah are important elements that help one gain a good end. `Abdullah ibn Mas`ud said, "[True] believers see themselves with their sins as if they were sitting beside a mountain, fearing that it will soon fall upon them" (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

Many times a person persists on committing a minor sin while he or she knows it is a sin. Such a person considers it to be nothing, not thinking of the greatness of the One being disobeyed! In many cases, this minor sin can be the bad end of a person's life, and so this person would be admitted to Hellfire. Anas ibn Malik said, "You do deeds that you consider more minute than a hair, but we used to consider them major sins at the time of the Prophet" (Al-Bukhari).

In the Glorious Qur'an, Almighty Allah draws the believers' attention to the importance of the good end of one's life and deeds; He says,

(O you who believe, be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care that is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims.) ([/b]Aal `Imran 3:102)

He also says,

[b] (And serve your Lord until there comes to you that which is certain.) (Al-Hijr 15:99)

In the previous verses, Almighty Allah commands us to fear Him and worship Him (alone) until we die, so that a good end could be attained. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said that there are some people who strive in obeying Allah for a long time of their lives, but shortly before they die they commit sins and end their lives as sinners. The Prophet said,

[b]"A person may do deeds that characterize the people of Hellfire, so that there is only a cubit between him and it, and then what has been written transcends, so he starts doing deeds that characterize the people of Paradise and enters Paradise . Similarly, a person may do deeds that characterize the people of Paradise , so that there is only a cubit between him and it, and then what has been written transcends, so he starts doing deeds of the people of Hellfire and enters Hellfire."([/b]Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Sa`d ibn Sahl As-Sa`idi narrated that [during one of the battles with the disbelievers] the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) looked at a man fighting against the pagans and he was one of the most competent persons fighting on behalf of the Muslims. The Prophet said, "Let him who wants to look at a man from the dwellers of the Hellfire, look at this (man)." Another man followed him and kept on following him till he (the fighter) was injured and, seeking to die quickly, he placed the blade tip of his sword between his breasts and leaned over it till it passed through his shoulders (i.e., committed suicide)." The Prophet added,

"A person may do deeds that seem to the people as the deeds of the people of Paradise while in fact, he is from the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire: and similarly a person may do deeds that seem to the people as the deeds of the people of the Hellfire while in fact, he is from the dwellers of Paradise. Verily, the (results of) deeds done depend upon the last actions." (Al-Bukhari)

Almighty Allah describes the believers as those who combine both fear of Allah's punishment and sincerity in worship in their hearts:
[b]
(Verily those who go in awe for fear of their Lord and those who believe in the signs of their Lord and those who do not associate (aught) with their Lord and those who give what they give (in alms) while their hearts are full of fear that to their Lord they will return —these hasten to good things and they are foremost in (attaining) them.)([/b]Al-Mu'minun 23:57–61)

This was the state of the reverend Companions. It was narrated that Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said, "I wish I were a hair in a believer's body." He used to touch his tongue saying, "This would lead me to the ways of destruction."

Another element of the work aiming at a good end is detaching low, worldly desires from one's heart. It is reported that `Ali ibn Abi Talib used to fear two things: having long hope and pursuing desires. He said, "Long hope makes [you] forget all about the hereafter, and pursuing desires swerves [you] from the way of truth."

He also used to say,” Verily this world has run away, and the hereafter is approaching very fast. And there are people for both, so be of the people of the hereafter, and do not be of the worshippers of this world, for in this world there are deeds without reckoning. But tomorrow [on the Day of Judgment], there will be reckoning without deeds."

Reminding oneself that death may come all of a sudden urges one to be ready for that destiny. Moreover, in Islam, sudden death is a detested thing, because it gives the individual no time for repentance. A person might get used to doing something evil, and sudden death can make this person's life end in such a state.

The righteous predecessors used to dread the bad end of one's life. Sahl At-Tusturi, one of the righteous predecessors, said, "Truthful persons used to fear the bad end of one's life in any move or at any moment. In the Glorious Qur'an, they are described by Allah as (Their hearts are full of fear) [Al-Mu'minun 23:60]."

Fear of a bad end of one's life should be present before one's eyes all the time, for fear induces people to do good deeds. The Prophet said,

[b]"Whoever fears should walk at night [i.e., begin very early, work very hard to complete his or her journey, and race for good deeds], and whoever walks at night reaches home [ Paradise ]. Allah's commodity is expensive — Allah's commodity is Paradise ."([/b]At-Tirmidhi)

However, when a person comes close to death, he or she should have more hope for Allah's mercy and should look forward to meeting Allah, for Allah likes to meet those who like to meet Him. The Prophet said,"None of you [Muslims] should die without having a good thought about Allah"(Muslim).

But many laypersons among Muslims depend on Allah's abundant mercy and forgiveness and keep on disobeying Him. Knowing that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful, they are tempted to commit more sins! This is a fatal error and a destructive way of thinking. Although Allah is Most Merciful and Forgiving, He is also the Severest in punishment. In the Glorious Qur'an, He says,

[b](Inform My servants that I am the Forgiving, the Merciful, and that My punishment is the painful punishment.)([/b]Al-Hijr 15:49–50)

He also says,

[b](The revelation of the Book is from Allah, the Mighty, the Knowing,the Forgiver of the faults and the Acceptor of repentance, the Stern in punishment, the Bountiful ; there is no god but He; to Him is the eventual coming.)([/b]Ghafir 40:2–3)

Ma`ruf Al-Karkhi, one of the righteous predecessors, said, "Your hope in the mercy of the One Whom you do not obey is foolishness and disappointment [for you]."

A Muslim should always be keen to pay back people's debts and to give them their rights, for rights due to others will surely be taken back on the Day of Resurrection, if not in this worldly life. If the debtor has no rewards to his credit on the Day of Judgment, the creditor's sins will be laid on the debtor's repository of sins (and eventually be admitted to Hell).

The Prophet informed us that a believer's soul will be hindered from getting into Paradise by his or her debts, until these debts are paid on this believer's behalf back to the creditor.

Fearing Allah, remembering death, doing good, repenting, and forsaking sins lead to a good end; this is the way of those addressed by the Forgiver in the following verse:

((To the righteous soul will be said "O (you) soul at rest, return to your Lord well-pleased (with him), well-pleasing (Him), so enter among My servants and enter My Heaven!" (Al-Fajr 89:27–30)

@Dankol

are you angry, sorry ooooooooo, the truth is bitter so the saying goes.

Angry ke, far from that sir . You should be able to refute all the exposure I gave to the so called 'write up'