Empiree:

Listen man, am not here for cheap (out of contest) propaganda. Keep your eyes wide open. The day Zionists go down the lizard's hole (hell), they will take you with them. If Israel is democratic, perhaps the allegation that her 3 citizens were killed by militants must have been investigated. Then provide evidence to back her claim. You don't go out bombing people on preconceived notion. Where is due process if Israel is the only democracy in the region?. Stupid flimsy excuses and so fourth."human shield" same crap we hear anytime rogue state commits fasad. Believe in whatever you want man. Truth stands clear from falsehood.

Omo, I would have engaged you constructively if you were objective; unfortunately, you are blinded by your hate for Israel and Jews - it's not surprising because the same hate is taught in the Quran and by Mohammad against Jews and Christians. I have said and will continue to say that peace between Palestinians and Israelis is a two party state solution. Until Hamas, Muslims and their supporters realize that Israel has every right to exist and accept it as such - the likes of what is happening in Gaza will pop it's head up again.

You can continue to wish for the day Israel will go down any hole. Una try in 1948 and were beaten like kids. Later in 1967, tiny Israel made a show of all Arab countries and defeated them. That wasn't enough, Syria and Egypt tried another stunt in 1973 and was woefully defeated and trashed. So, keep on wishing and acting stupi.d because of your groundless and baseless hate for Israel.

Israel is not like other coward states that will quiver in fear when Islamist and jihadist beat war drums. You act stupid and attack them, they respond back with more force. You kill one of them, they kill 100 of you. So while you continue your wishful thinking of Israel destruction; please realize that it will not happen in your generation or any other generation you can think of. One of my favorite words are from Abraham Lincoln - Be soft with soft people and hard with harder people. Your Muslim brothers should have realized this by now. You can't pick a fight and start complaining that your opponent is too strong and over-reacting. You threaten their cities, they level yours so next time you think before you start a fight.

vedaxcool:

Ali r.a did say something about. Wise would lose arguement with an ignorant person. The truth remains very simple, and most christians on nairaland show how morally bankrupt they are, we wouldn't expect any better from hatheists as hate seems to be the basis of their thinking. The whole palestine issue started when christian tried eliminating jews (which they did in millions over the years) and then came up with a solution of sending them off to palestine, ever since then the same christians who succeeded in driving them away to Israel, have continued using spurious ideology in defending the continued theft and murder of palestine land and palestines generally. Christians would not mind defending homosexuals or even the devil if it spite muslims, that shows moral bankruptcy. My point u need not waste time on people who have been brainwashed to defend through lies, the state of Israel. I think we should focus more on what the op is saying, Re invigorating muslims mindset towards increasing our taqwa.

Increasing your taqwa? Are you deluded? You are a Sunni and you insult your Shia opponents here on NL yet you come here and speak of Christians killing Jews? Can you show me in the Bible where it is taught that the God of the Bible hates Jews and that Christians should kill Jews?

Empiree: [s][/s]

Oops, you have decided to remove your thinking cap

Here are your friends Hamas telling their people to be human shields:

http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4340.htm

I am hurt about the deaths of innocent people but I make no apologies to a party that will use it's own people as human shields to score political points. If they want to fight, let them come out and fight

Empiree: cloudstar

Modern Jews really care less about what Old T says about Holy Land being theirs since donkey years. Usually they would say "UN gave it to them". Exactly what former NY mayor said upon arrival in Israel. Two ways to look into this. From Muslim perceptive, the problem is NOT the land itself (as in material reality). Rather spiritual and Divine attachment and phenomenon. Quran does not shy away from saying God gave them (Jews) the Holy Land on conditions. It is same Quran which says they violated the conditions and they were kicked out twice.

Go on with your theory Bros, you are entitled to it. While you are at it, I employ you to come back to the real world, Israel is not going anywhere. The combination of all Arabian armies will not be able to remove it - they tried several times since 1948. The solution is a two state agreement; if Hamas doesn't want it; it should be ready to take the blame of the destruction is it bringing on itself.

With all your finger-pointing at Israel - it has the best and most stable democracy in the Middle East. It is more technologically advanced than any of it's peers in the Middle East as well. Millions of Jews were killed and slaughtered during war war II but they used that as a pivot to become a great nation. Instead of the Muslims/Arabs to take notice and do the same; all they want to do is fight.

Hamas started this conflict. Hamas is using it's populace as human shields. Hamas as refused to accept the deal offered by Egypt that the US, Europe and Israel agreed to. Hamas is trying to win a political war at the sacrifice of innocent and ordinary people in Gaza.

To the video posted on youtube, I watched it (not all of it to be honest). Before we go any further on that, this is what I have to say. The video is not an authority on the subject. Jews are not Christians - So the author using the Bible as his authority is flawed. Not-with-standing, the Bible predates the Quran by 600 years. In simple terms, the historical account of the Bible SETS PRECEDENCE over the Quran. I am almost certain that you will strongly object and honestly, I do not blame you.

It boils down to claim - who can claim access to the land? Israel and Palestinians have legitimacy to the land and a two party state is the solution. Fatah has accepted Israel as a sovereign country; Hamas is the one refusing to do the same.

tbaba1234

If ifa worshippers lived on a piece of land, thousands of years ago, does it make it right for them to come and bulldoze the home of people living there now.

You still didn't answer my question - who has right to the land? Your response shows that you do not know. The Israelis and Palestinians both can lay claim to the land so no one party can say they own the land 100%. The Palestinians are saying the deed on their land dates back before 1948 before the state of Israel was formed. The Israelis and Jews are saying their deed dates back to David and Solomon and Christ. So, if you want to go by oldest deed; then you can easily figure out who has the 1st right to the land.

I am sorry, that argument is silly, beyond ridiculous.

Your point of view. This is the claim Israel is making. Israel doesn't mind a two party state. If Arabs can recognize Israel and co-exist in peace; all this wahala will not be happening.

It is either they resist or they give up.

Giving up is not an option; you of all people should already know that

What is happening in the west bank with relative peace??

In the Gaza Strip, the government is led by the radical Islamist movement Hamas. In the West Bank, Fatah, a political party formerly known as the Palestinian National Liberation Movement, is in power. Both Hamas and Fatah are predominantly Sunni Muslim groups. Israel considers the leadership of the West Bank to be its legitimate negotiating partner for the Palestinian territories.

While both groups were created with the goal of reclaiming land from Israel, Fatah has accepted the existence of Israel, but Hamas hasn’t. Hamas, headed by Khaled Mashal, is considered a terrorist organization by Israel, the U.S., Canada, Egypt and Jordan, as well as the European Union. Israel refuses to consider Hamas a legitimate government, and Hamas refuses to acknowledge the State of Israel.

Until recently, Fatah also refused to recognize Hamas as a legitimate government

Continous land theft.

In the 1967 Six-Day War, aka the Arab-Israeli War, Israel defeated Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Among other territory, it then occupied the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, as well as the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt. Palestinians had lived on much of the land taken by Israel during the war.

In 1978, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin signed the Camp David Accords, promoted by U.S. President Jimmy Carter. It was the first peace treaty signed between Israel and an Arab country. One of the accord’s conditions was that an autonomous government be set up in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Once that was established, Israeli troops had to leave the territories. Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt and left the Gaza Strip

AlBaqir: 'The world stands disgraced' - Israeli shelling of school kills at least 15
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel


A Palestinian collects body parts in a classroom at the Abu Hussein UN school. Photograph: Lefteris Pitarakis/AP

Perhaps you should also inform us why Hamas is using innocent civilians as human shields:

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/16/hamas-spokesman-defends-using-civilians-as-human-shields-video/

LagosShia

you are very silly. you believe in a god who steals land to give his people, while we dont believe in such a god.

Answer the gentlemen, who can lay claim to the land?

AlBaqir

Oh! Your extended family live there for you to get 'real info'?

Wake up! How do you feel when some greedy powerful idiots occupy your land and on a mission to exterminate your generation? UN and even US (who are known to be real supporter of the state of Israel) have ordered Israel to stop the occupation of Gaza strip. It fell to deaf ears.

Who can lay claim to the land?

Gaza has turned to the largest open prison. Everything they eat and drink is being controlled by Israel.

Who's fault is that?

Adolf Hitler had a vision to wiped out those barbarian

I wonder why he failed? Reflect on that very well before you post such hateful comments online

LagosShia:

It always has to be a sect matter

olajide21:
Please tell me where the Gazans come from? Imagine if the Palestinians are the ones with the military mights as Israel, killing Israelis indiscriminately, I am sure regardless of what caused the fight, the world would have gone agog as to how barbaric the Palestinians are. But, why would people like you speak against the ills in Gaza Strip. Every one that know history know that Israel is unjust, and their act is horrific.
Israel could bring an end to the Gaza issues if they desire peace, but for people like you who are myopic and monolithic in their line of thinking, Israel just like the US feels, if they kill 200 people while aiming at just one so called terrorist, the killing is justified.........

When Hamas over-threw Fatah in Gaza years ago and killed hundreds of their own Muslims did you open your mouth to condemn them? The issue here is that Hamas has refused to recognized Israel as a sovereign nation. Hamas leaders calls for the destruction of Israel and fires hundreds of Missiles into Israel. The Israelis are smart and technologically advanced and have been able to reduce the impact of such attack. However, they won't stand-by and allow such actions to continue.

If and when Hamas decides to recognized Israel - this conflict will be over

olajide21:
Do you watch the news at all? You have spoken like a Novice which you are! What Rocket is Hamas firing? Their rocket is like fire cracker compared to Israelis bombs which are always fatal..... As at the last count their bomb has killed close to 200 Gazans and injured close to a 1000. What has the so called Hamas bomb done in Israel? It has killed 0; zero Israelis and injured 2. Is that a fair war to you? Have you ever boardered to go through History of Israel and her occupation of Palestinian lands? They are aggressors and oppressors........ Israel as a matter of fact controls all boarders of Palestinians. Their air, sea and land boarders are all Israelis.........
I abhor the murder of the innocent under whatever disguise....... But Israel is too brutal.......
Do you know what Israel call the room knocking concept? Listen, read and be informed!!!
It's amazing how the world stands with their hands behind their back...........

Most of the media is camouflaged anti-antisemitism propaganda. I regret the loss of lives of Palestinians and Israelis. However, you can start a fight and complain if your opponent decides to beat you up. The most cowardly and despicable action are those of Hamas that are using Palestinians as human shields. Hamas is putting rockets and bombs in Mosques and schools and firing from those places; what kind of people will do that?

So before you start complaining, please be objective and give both sides of the story

babylolaroy:
on the contrary, this is what i think. if christ is d leader, den his followers are christians...ofcourse. thats logical. that dont mean nohow that christ was a christian since he was the leader.
we shudnt say further that we muslims think he IS a muslim. yu know dah kinda thing nd we dont think him a word of God. we think we all are words of God. BE! and we were. thats it. hpw else dd we come about? only by that word which is BE! not jesus!

What you think is irrelevant - it doesn't change who Jesus is and what His message is about. The question you should ask yourself is what is historically true? This is what I suggest:

1. I suggest you research the accounts of the Bible and the Quran about Jesus. For example, do not believe what the Bible say about Jesus and do not believe that the Quran say either (even though this may be hard). Research early historical accounts about Jesus before both books were written or revealed. After that, compare your research findings with the Quranic and Biblical account and verify which is closer to your research.

Let me give you a simple example. The Bible claimed Jesus was crucified (the Bible came 600 years earlier than the Quran), the Quran states it wasn't so. In such a case, what do we believe? The answer is pretty simple - history from early sources i.e. Roman historians who were not Christians attest and confirmed that Jesus was crucified. You may ask - why should we believe these accounts - again, simple: They predate both the Biblical and Quranic accounts. So, even if you don't believe the Bible said it, you can't deny that Jesus the Christ was crucified. You may decide to ignore it and hold on to your original belief

I ask that you are objective when discussing matters of faith and use history as a litmus test to validate religious accounts. This goes for both Islam and Christianity.

Uzeinalkali

1. I dont know anything about Mary been 12yrs of age when she birthed Jesus.

Several muslims have claimed this to justify the fact that Mohammad married a 6 year old child

2. There is no proof whatsoever that the prophet(SAW) married a 6 yrs old girl. Its just one of the things Islam haters use in bringing the image of the prophet down. However we should note that the right of a girl to get married is based on maturity not by age and when I mean maturity I mean reaching the puberty stage. As long as a boy/girl reaches that stage he or she is free to get married. (Allah knows best)

I think you are incorrect. The Hadith Al-Bukhari made it clear that Aisha was 6 when Mohammad married her and consummated his marriage to her when she was 9 years old. Also, puberty is not a sign that a child can get married or is ready for sexual intercourse, all it means is that the child body is under-going hormonal changes. A 7 year old girl can start growing hair under her arm-pit; it doesn't mean it's time for Muslim men to marry her. We should use our common sense instead of following 7th century Arab traditions.

3. Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that
which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."
-----------------------
He doesn't know what would happen to him or to any one of
the messengers of Allah. He followed what is given to him
from his Creator. he comes as clear waner that to all man
kind, telling them follow what Allah reveald you. Being a muslim just not justify that you will make heaven, it all depends on your deeds.

You are not giving the full picture here. In Surah 19:71; The Quran states that every Muslim will go to hell. Whether Muslims will be there temporarily or pass over it is another subject of discussion but it raises eye-brows that after all your good deeds, Allah will still send you to hell at some point. The Quran also states that Allah is the best of deceivers and he can willingly deceive you irrespective of your good deeds.

Unlike Christianity that mentions that as long as you are a christian you will be saved, this is totally wrong

I think you need a clearer understanding of who a true Christian is. The term has been used loosely so many times and it carries no weight when people hear it anymore.

1. Christians believe that anyone born of a woman by a human father carries the gene called Sin. In simple terms, it's in your nature to do wrong i.e. lie, steal, possible kill, fornicate etc. This gene was passed to all man-kind because the first man and woman disobeyed and sinned against God. So, it's in our DNA - it's more spiritual than physical. It was passed down from our 1st parents to all humans.
2. No matter how hard we try, no matter how we strive to be the best people we can be - we will also fall short because our very nature is sinful. So, we can pray 100 times a day and wash our feet and faces but it will not change our characters because we do not personally have the power to do so.
3. Then came Jesus the Christ. The Quran and the Bible attest that the Spirit of God came upon Mary (A Virgin) and she gave birth to Him. What does that mean? - It means He had no earthly father - the DNA of sin couldn't reach him because He was not born of man but of God. That is why Christians believe He is the Son of God because it was God's spirit that came on Mary. The Quran confirmed that Jesus the Christ was sinless. It is not recorded anywhere in the Quran or in the Bible that Jesus sinned. So because He didn't sinned, He has the power to give anyone not to sin as well. The reason that sin is a big deal is because God is a Holy and Just God and will not tolerate sin in His presence i.e. you can't be good on Monday and be bad on Saturday.

I will leave it here for now

babylolaroy: First the reason you will leave is because you want to leave.
Next;because it is right to leave
Next; because you are convinced of its truth.
i tell you there are so many reasons buh you have to learn them from a mufti who can show you the truth face to face.
regarding that word picture, Aisha was his wife, how small so ever, so whats d big deal in handling one's wife¿?.
That jesus didnt marry doesnt make him any saint-er
do you know how old jesus' mother was?...she was 12 wen she had him...wic was not abnormal to people of that time, if she had been married normally

Normally, I will not respond to such statements but I am compelled to ask you for the source stating that Jesus mother was 12 when she had him. While you are looking that up, I will say this - anyone can decide to adhere to any form of worship or religion they choose. If you want to believe in a stone, that is your prerogative but don't throw your stone at others.

tbaba1234: ^ You mean the same state that meant destroying over 400 villages..

If europeans came to Africa and forcibly cleared off, 400 villages to settle there.

Would you be throwing roses at them??

Stop been ridiculous!!

And please get educated, this video is by the jewish voice for peace.

Bros, no body can lay claim to the land. Israel can argue that their fore-fathers from the time of Solomon owned the land and they have a point. The solution is a two state agreement. Israel is not going anywhere neither are the Palestinians; so they should both go to the discussion table.

Whichever way we look at it, a military solution is not in the Palestinians favor.

mazaje:


The Arabs started it and they are the ones suffering today, if they had accepted Israel since from inception and allowed the Jews to live in peace non of what is going on today would have seen the light of the day. . .They refused to accept the creation of the Jewish state in mostly the desert part of the Palestinian mandate. They just want to own all the land. . .The world powers at that time declared two states to begin existence in 1948, a Jewish state called Israel and an Arab state called Palestine. They were to live side by side. The Jews got the inferior plot of land, but at least they had something.

The two states were to begin existing on May 15, 1948. Had both groups accepted this, there would be two states today and there will be no problem at all if they had accepted and agreed to live in peace.

The Arabs refused, they did not want the Jews to exist there at all. They wanted all of the land. Arab armies from Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria with the backing of Saudi Arabia waged war on the newly created Israel the very next day without provocation. The Israelis were vastly outnumbered but they still won the Arabs. . . .They wage war again in 1956 and lost. Another big war was waged in 1967, . Israel absolutely devastates the Arab armies and Israel captures more land in the process, all these wars were waged without provocation by the Arabs they claimed there were going to annihilate the Jews and send them into the sea but they failed. . .They tired in 1973 until the Jews got tired of them ganging on them and obtained an atomic bomb. . .

The Arab nations and their rulers all got the message accepted reality that they have lost many wars, and with Israel having an atomic bomb it will be foolish to engage them in any kind of war so they all stayed away. . The Arabs living in Gaza are indigenous to Egypt. Those living in the West Bank are indigenous to Jordan.There is no indigenous Arab population to Israel. The Israelis are not colonizers. There is no “occupied” Palestinian land. When Palestinians refer to the illegal occupation, they are referring to the entire state of Israel. The PLO led by Arafat began the movement of radical Islamic terrorism that exists to this day. They refuse to accept Israel and have vowed to destroy the country. . .They have stated many many times that their conflict with the Jews is a religious one and they are doing a religious duty by fighting the Jews, their duty as Muslims they have stated many times if to establish an Islamic nation of the dead bodies of the Jews after they have obliterated them. . .it will NEVER happen , not in their dreams. . .

They should keep throwing ineffective rockets targeting Israeli civilians while Israel keeps throwing real bombs and killing their own civilians. . .There is nothing that the Jews have not done for peace, but they are always meet with resistance. . .Mahmood Abbas stated openly that he will never accept the Jewish state, Hamas have said the same. . .They should not accept reality and keep holding onto their beliefs that is their problem and they are the ones that will keep suffering, as long as they refuse to accept the reality that a Jewish state has already been established then they can keep fighting a war they will never win and keep suffering as a result. . .If they truly want peace then they know what to do. . .

Well said

tbaba1234:

There can only be peace if it is a just peace. Will Israel be willing to give back stolen land? I doubt that, It continues to build illegal settlements in the west bank stealing more land.

A just peace needs a powerful impartial mediator, who will be tough to both parties but the US is too partial towards Israel. So far they have neglected 65 UN resolutions with no consequences.

A mother who loses her baby never forgets, A man who loses his family never forgets, a child who loses his parents never forgets.

Even when borders are agreed (say 1967), there will be a lot of really angry people. Reconciliation will take a longer time.

Israel gave back all the lands it captured from Egypt during the 7 day Arab-Israeli war because Egypt recognized Israel and settled for a political solution. So, I think the issue can be settled in several steps - 1st we need to start with the Arabs recognizing Israel as a legitimate country.

Keemie: Laila ha illa lahu Muhammad rasulullah sala lahu aleyhi wa salam which roughly means there is no other God except Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.
So whatever you say and you do not believe the above how will you understand why pilgrims go for hajj and perform it's rituals.
To answer your questions the prophet gave instructions and we follow cos Allah said we should follow him
We worship Allah alone according to his instructions and Sunnah of the prophet. If you don't know what Sunnah is well too bad.
We don't worship any object we worship Allah
Ps I don't reason with unreasonable people.

Another ignorant and blind advocate. Allah is supreme and Mohammad is not. Mohammad is a human like you and I and was flawed like you and I. Allah instructed Muslims not to venerate any objects including stones yet Mohammad kissed the Kabbah. Between Allah and Mohammad, who should we obey?

lanrexlan: Abi,his own star is like a cumulus cloud.The guy daft pass shoe brush.

Shia and Sunni dey agree to attack "infidel". pathetic foul.s

lanrexlan:

Birds of a feather,your reasoning is all the same.

Shut up and take a chill pill

lanrexlan: Cave? Have you heard of something about life outside NL? Answer to who? To a person who has proven overtime to be an alpha idjit? It's like lending a blind man a reading glasses,it's of no use to him.

Oh boy - responding to you is tiring. Whenever you want to engage in constructive discussion and act like a human being - respond appropriately.

Mee234:
Instead of beating about the bush and trivialize the issue he raised by making found of his moniker, u guys will do well giving him/her a straight answer even if it's "I don't know" or "I will found out from ulama" .

It's typical of some Muslims here on NL. Whenever tough questions about Islam is brought to light; they tend to attack you and call you all sorts of names without providing an answer to the question you asked.

AlBaqir:

Na true talk you talk o dear brother. Imagine the name sef "cloudstar"? Stars are normally shining and bright. Its own is cloudy. No wonder why the guy is gullible.

It's amazing that both Shias and Sunnis will gang up and defend common interests yet be at each other throats and sometimes kill one another on theological differences and traditions. The same is evident here. Allah instructed all Muslims:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, [size=13pt](dedication of) stones[/size], and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

But Muslims like AlBaqir has transcended Mohammad to the level of Allah and said whatever Mohammad did was perfect and should be an example to all Muslims. Even when Mohammad kissed the stone directly disobeying the commandment of Allah in the Quran.

Based on your theory, Muslim men should dress in women clothing because Mohammed did it as well. Grown up Muslim men should be br.ea.st fed by women in order to nullify suspicion that they are not having an affair in private. Mohammad owned and sold slaves, perhaps you should too as well since he did it. He married his son's wife. I can go on and on.

To blind, hard core adherents that are not objective and who think everything Mohammad did was perfect, please read one of his prayers:

"Oh God, I acknowledge and confess before You, all my sins, please forgive them, as no one can forgive sins except You. Forgive my mistakes, those done intentionally, or out of my ignorance, with or without seriousness. Oh God, forgive my sins and my ignorance, forgive my sins of the past and of the future, which I did openly or secretly. Forgive the wrong I have done, jokingly or seriously. I seek Your protection from all the evil I have done. Wash away my sins, and cleanse my heart, from all the sins as a white garment is cleansed from the filth, and let there be long distance between me and my sins, as You made the East and West far from each other."

This is a synthesis of his personal prayers found in Sahih Bukhari Volume 8: #s 335, 379, 407, and 408. Please read it before you blindly chose to follow every and anything Mohammad did because you thought he was perfect. The Quran said he was a sinner, he said he was a sinner yet you want us to believe he was sinless.

AlBaqir: ^Thanks for wasting my time as usual. Am done with u forever on NL.

As usual, running away with your tails between your legs

AlBaqir:

That shouldn't be your headache since u are faceless and nameless. You simply like poke-nosing. I wonder what concern an Atheist with Muslim affair.

Muslim affair! Are you high?. Who is the Atheist?

lanrexlan: Yorubas will say ''Omo ko mowe,Iya re ni akosile re danmoran,kini a n wi,kini o n wi?'' roughly translated 'A child is intellectually dull and drab and his mother said his handwriting is legible.What's the correlation?'
AlBaqir,please for the sake of Allah stop replying gullible goons on NL,it only lowers one's IQ.

You finally came from your cave? Please help your brother provide an answer

The Shias and Sunnis of NL are still at it? Na wa oh

AlBaqir: ^Now I know you have 'Armageddon of the brain'.

How Does the question: 'do u believe Muhammad was a divine prophet' got to do with all the gibberish above *he married at 26, a 40year old woman, and later married a 6year old*

Are you scared to hit the bulls eye? Your so-called answers to my questions showed you either don't understand the question or scared to hit the bulls eye. You are just beating round the bush.

Was Muhammad a divine prophet to you?
Is Quran a divine revelation?

My point in asking all these, because I know you NEVER believe in Muhammad as a prophet of God or Quran as a divine revelation, is that the 'practice of touching and kissing' the black stone is among the sunnah (practice) of the holy prophet Muhammad (saws) which Quran command in various chapters:

"You have the best examples in the messenger (Muhammad) of God; for whosoever believe in God and the hereafter..."

"Say (O Muhammad): 'if you (the believers) love Allah, FOLLOW me..."

Quran command muslims to pray and stipulated time for it. But how to pray was not mentioned.

Quran command zakat. But when and how and what to give as zakat were not mentioned. Etc etc

The practice of Muhammad explained all these. Likewise, there are many rites of Hajj among whom is the 'black stone' not mentioned in the Quran but commanded by the holy prophet (saws).

Mohammad is not Allah, this is what Allah said in the Quran:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

Surah 21:66 = He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you?"

So, there is no where in the Quran that Allah instructed any Muslim to venerate any object or the Kabbah. Allah explicitly tells Muslims that it is an abomination yet Mohammad did it. Go to your imam and ask him why Mohammad disobeyed Allah

true2god: I dont claim to be a prophet, it is just a username. Anyone that call himself a provide is expected to live a high moral standard as an example for his generation, and not otherwise.

If I am a prophet, my revelations should not be contradictory, I must not be lustfull, I must not engage in wars to force pple to accept me as a prophet, I must know that getting down with a girl of 9yrs (while I was 54) is morally wrong irrespective of what my culture says, sleeping with captured slaves, ets. All these are what your prophet did (all recorded in the hadith).

That aside anyway, concerning cloudstar question, is there anywhere, in the koran, that allah asked you guys to be kissing a black stone in mecca? Is there anywhere you guys were asked to encircle the kabba seven times? Are these practices carried out prior Islamic era or not, by the arabian pagan worshippers?

There is no where in the Quran that Allah instructs Muslims to venerate/respect or worship any object. This is what the Quran said:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

Surah 21:66 = He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you?"

So, any Muslim that tells you Allah instructed them to kiss and circle or venerate the Kabbah is a liar and is going against the Quran. Did Mohammad kiss the Kabbah, yes He did - that is not recorded in the Quran but in the Hadiths. It is the same Hadiths that Sunnis respect but Shias but into question. Be that as it may, why did Muhammad kiss an object that Allah explicitly forbid is the bone that Muslims need to answer

AlBaqir

Absolutely NO sir! You don't need to repeat yourself. Your biggest problem is you beat round bushes all the time.

Really, I am not the one that has gone around in circles just to answer a simple question

How does above 'reply of yours' answer the Question: "[u]Do you believe Muhammad was a prophet of God?" And Do you believe Quran is a divine revelation?

You asked me what I believed and I told you.

You see the reply is far away from the question yet you have audacity to abuse with silly words. You need to be examine by a psychiatrist with an 'Armageddon of the brain'.

No one abused you Bros. You are the one taking offense to a simple question.

So in your own definition how does "touching and kissing" the black stone amount to worship?

It is worship because Allah didn't instruct any Muslim to do it. Mohammad is not Allah and Mohammad is not perfect, he is a man just like you and I and wasn't sure if he will go to heaven or not. Ascribing partners to Allah and giving any other object worship is considered an abomination in Islam.

"Say (O Muhammad): 'if you (the believers) love God, then Follow me..."

"You (the believers) have the best examples in the messenger of God; for those who believe in God and the hereafter...

"Obey God and His messenger...

Can you please quote the verses you mentioned so we can refer to them and put them in context.

Those Quranic command (and more) compelled us, the followers of Muhammad, to 'kiss and touch' the black stone after the practice and instructions of the holy prophet (saws).

No it didn't. The Quran never tells Muslims to do any such thing. Mohammad decided to do what he wanted against the Quran instructions. The Quran explicitly tells Mulsims not to venerate any object:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. I am quoting from Yusuf Ali.

Surah 21:66 = He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you?"

So, the Quran and Allah teaches that the veneration or worship of any object or stones or the Kabbah in this case is idolatry. Yet Mohammad didn't heed Allah's instructions for reasons unknown to us. And here you are telling us that Allah's words are not as important as Mohammad's actions.

The issue then comes up - Did Mohammad disobey Allah or did Allah provide an incorrect commandant?

AlBaqir:

Answer my questions and I will show you where it is. Again did you believe in the Qur'an as a divine book of God revealed to Muhammad? Then Do you believe in Muhammad being a prophet of God sent with the Qur'an?

Bros, in case you have reading problems, I will repeat my answer again:

Your Question: First you don't believe in Qur'an being word of God.

My Answer: That is because God is consistent. The law of abrogation is not the nature of the true supreme ruler of heavens and earth. Why would God in the Quran make one statement and later change his mind. Can't the Almighty God that is infinite in wisdom and knows all give one command and not change his mind? Was the God in the Quran not sure when he revealed his words through Gabriel to Mohammad in as much that He had to change it? Also, the Quran makes several claims that are incorrect when magnified under the microscope of proven and tested science.

Your Question: Do you believe in Muhammad being a prophet of God sent with the Qur'an?

My Answer: I believe traceable historical accounts that have been proven i.e. I believe Mohammad taught Monotheism which was a BIG deal in 7th century Arabia at that time. I believe he married a 40 year old woman when he was 25 and a 6 year old girl when he was over 50. Those accounts are historic and can be traced. However, I do not believe in the theological accounts that has no historical basis i.e. Adam was over 60 cubits tall. Also, the Quran gives several different accounts about the creation of the universe.

In case you need me to write it again, I will. Now, please show us in the Quran where Allah instructed Muslims to circle the Kabbah and kiss it

AlBaqir

I've known you to be a shameless liar and you repeat the same in a cycling direction. You can re-read your reply to my questions and tell me how you answer them. Not every comment/reply to questions hit the bulls eye. Answer to the so-called question of yours is in the Quran. And the simple question you FAILED to answer is: Do you believe in the Qur'an as a divine book of God?

Are you blind or stupid? Let me repeat myself:

I believe some historical accounts that have been proven i.e. I believe Mohammad taught Monotheism which was a BIG deal in 7th century Arabia at that time. I believe he married a 40 year old woman when he was 25 and a 6 year old girl when he was over 50. Those accounts are historic and can be traced. However, I do not believe in the theological accounts that has no historical basis i.e. Adam was over 60 cubits tall. Also, the Quran gives several different accounts about the creation of the universe.

Run away? If you open your eye to read and free your reasoning from hatred, then you will realize the following:

1. I ask what is the meaning of "Worship"?

2. How is "worship" in that context (as in 1 however you interpret it) apply to "touching and kissing" a stone?

3. Do you believe in the Qur'an as divine book to be asking for prove in it?

However, my reply of "sacrifice of young Lamb" has nothing to do with you. It is in response to Unbias in the context of "worship". What concern you are highlighted above.

You and I have defined what worship is - all I have asked you is this - WHERE IN THE QURAN DID ALLAH INSTRUCT MUSLIMS TO KISS THE KABBAH AND CIRCLE AROUND IT?