AlBaqir

Like I challenged your compatriot: Do you believe in that "Allah" or His word, Qur'an being divine scripture or His prophet and messenger, Muhammad (saws)?

I provided an answer but so far - you are scared to provide an answer to my question

And I say best of luck to you as your entire belief and prayers revolved round the "sacrificed blood of that young lamb".

Irrelevant - trying to run in another direction will not save you. PLEASE TELL US IF ALLAH INSTRUCTED MUSLIMS TO CIRCLE THE KABBAH 7 TIMES AND KISS IT

AlBaqir:

No you know not. You are a bloody liar. Do you believe in "Allah" or His word "Qur'an" or His prophet and messenger, Muhammad? In those 3 questions lies answer to your silly allegation.

Okay then - can you show me in the Quran where Allah instructed any Muslim to circle the Kabbah or kiss it?

BetaThings:

At least your forward religion is ordaining h.o.m.o.s.i.c.k priests
in defiance of soddom and gommorah
In.c.e.st is next
After that a loving and caring relationship with dogs
Carry on with your religion of "forwardness"
By the time you finish, you will have nothing called religion left

Perhaps you can show us in the Bible where "homo-sick" priest are ordained

AlBaqir

First you don't believe in Qur'an being word of God.

I believe some historical accounts that have been proven i.e. I believe Mohammad taught Monotheism which was a BIG deal in 7th century Arabia at that time. I believe he married a 40 year old woman when he was 25 and a 6 year old girl when he was over 50. Those accounts are historic and can be traced. However, I do not believe in the theological accounts that has no historical basis i.e. Adam was over 60 cubits tall. Also, the Quran gives several different accounts about the creation of the universe.

Second you don't believe in Muhammad being prophet of God or his sayings being inspired by God.

That is because God is consistent. The law of abrogation is not the nature of the true supreme ruler of heavens and earth. Why would God in the Quran make one statement and later change his mind. Can't the Almighty God that is infinite in wisdom and knows all give one command and not change his mind? Was the God in the Quran not sure when he revealed his words through Gabriel to Mohammad in as much that He had to change it? Also, the Quran makes several claims that are incorrect when magnified under the microscope of proven and tested science.

Third you don't even believe in "Allah" being the true God who created all things.

I believe in the one and only true God. The maker or heaven and earth. The Almighty God that made every single one of us. The all powerful, all knowledgeable and all supreme God. If this is the God that muslims believe in when they refer to God - they yes, it is the same God I believe in. However, the characteristics of Allah as described in the Quran and Hadith is different from the Almighty God as described in the Bible. Allah hates Jews and Christians; Allah willfully deceives when he chooses to; Allah prefers Muslims over His other creations. Those attributes of Allah and his character is not consistent with God Almighty.

So please tell me how any of Islamic rites and rituals can ever seem right to you when you don't believe in any of the above?

Because Allah never instructed Muslims to kiss the Kabbah or circle it 7 times. To disarm my argument, please show me in the Quran where Allah instructs Muslims to circle the Kabbah and kiss it?

Your biggest problem is you simply don't want to treat Islam in its own terms, conditions and history. You adamantly compare with your "standard" always. If it doesn't compatible with your "standard", its incorrect.

The standard is the same standard that Islam uses. I haven't used any other standard than Islamic standard. All I asked was - where in the Quran did Allah instruct Muslims to circle the Kabbah 7 times or voluntarily kiss it? I haven't used any other standard to pose this question to you.

I choose not to waste my time replying your allegations because as usual its a sheer waste of time and energy.

That is because you haven't answered the single direct question I have been asking. Where in the Quran did Allah instruct Muslims to circle the Kabbah and kiss it?

BetaThings

And yours guys go to Redeemed camp every month, don't you?
Do you do that to enrich anyone?
Tell me the budget for hajj and let us see how it enriches Saudi Arabia
Tell me how many Saudis drive the buses and sell the food during hajj
Tell me how many pilgrims go to Mecca 2-3m in two weeks and how much do they spend?
What is Saudi's GDP?

Another ignorant individual with nothing important to say. Did God in the Bible order anyone to go to the Redeem camp? Do Christians worship any stone in that camp? I have asked all muslims yet haven't received any answer. Did Allah order any Muslim to kiss the black stone? Did he order Muslims to circle the black stone

Muslims don't pray to human beings, you guys do. Have you ever seen a Muslim ask from the black stone? And less than 3% of Muslims will ever perform hajj in their lifetine So?

Really, who are the humans that Christians pray to? Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the rites at the Hajj before you make a fool of yourself.

Please debate what you know -this is not a beer parlour

I know this - Allah never instructed any Muslim in the Quran to kiss or circle the Kabbah

AlBaqir: "And there is nothing like Him" ~Quran says

God has no hand you can ever imagine. This expression is figure of speech: metaphor or simile. Many a time Quran talk to us in a simple language we can easily understand hence the use of hands, face etc for God, while in many other places He balanced, no imaginary description for God.

For example as reported in the Qur'an:"The jews says 'God's hands are TIED up. Be their hands tied up...Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He give and spend (of His bounty) as He pleases..." Quran 5: 67
What does Hand signify here? Generosity.

Irrelevant again - how does this tie into the black stone and the worship of it?

AlBaqir

It is however established that the holy prophet (saws) whenever he passed by the "Black stone", apparently the starting point of Tawaaf (circumambulation of Kaaba), he (saws) will touch and kiss the stone.

Is Mohammad Allah, did Allah command him to kiss the black stone or pay reference to it? Sometimes, it surprises me that "educated" people will ignore all reason to approve acts not instituted by Allah.

It is obvious this companion doesn't know or understand the symbolism of this Stone. Apart from the ancient story that characterized this stone, it is surely among the 'symbols of God (sha'air LLAH)' talked about in sura al-Maida vs 3:

You are the same one who claim that some Hadiths are weak and some are strong. You pick and chose what you want to believe. Can you show us in the Quran where Allah said that the black stone in the Kabbah was a symbol he asked Muslims to kiss and venerate?

Dr. Ali Shariati writes:
What does this stone symbolize? It symbolizes a hand - a right hand! The 'right hand' of Allah!

This is shirk - You are placing a stone as part of Allah even if it's symbolic. To explain the idolatry of stone worship, you are desperately trying to inject teaching that is not in the Quran or that wasn't instructed by Allah.

At the black stone, the moment of selection, you must choose your path, goal, and future. When joining the people, you must shake hands with Allah who is extending His right hand - therefore taking oath to become Allah's confederate. You will be free from all previous allegiances; no longer will you be an ally of the powers, the hypocrites, the tribal chiefs, the rulers on this earth, the aristocrats of Quraish, the landlords, nor money. You are Free!

The black stone worship was an old Arabian pagan ritual that happened before Mohammad advocated monotheism. Why he decided to keep the practice is a question you should ask yourself. However, Allah never revealed it or taught it in the Quran.

"The Hand of Allah is over their hands" ~Qur'an 48 :10. Touch Allah's 'hand'. He is superior to all who have TIED your hands in previous allegiances!

Irrelevant nonsense

nairalife2013

there is no shame there I wonder how u see things. I am in my worship place and I chose to kiss what ever I kiss and u from outside stood there and say am worshiping the thing.

Okay. Where in the Quran did Allah tell you to kiss a stone that is in Mecca?

Swear to d holy bible that am worshipping the thing now since u are so sure, say if am not worshipping d thing make motor jam u or make u get bad luck and get knocked down and

James 5:12 = But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation

Kissing and performing a ritual to a stone which Allah hasn't commanded you is idolatry. You can defend it all you want, that is your cup of tea. Muslims are quick to call others polytheist yet you are the ones that circle a dead stone that can't even speak and kiss it. You will face Allah

... U argue wid a biased mind cos u hate pilgrimage, or any thing done in freewill.

Pilgrimage is not the issue, idol worship is. The ritual of kissing the stone and circling around it is not found in the Quran and Allah never instructed it. I have asked you several times to show us where it is in the Quran but so far, all you have done is beat empty air.

U make allusions dat are ridiculous and beyond reason- main road or is it middle of d road mosque... Do the needful as I said and I will believe u... I will giv u list of what to swear. I dey wid u and y'all w'likemind

My yes is my yes and my no is my no - my word is my bond. I don't need to swear to prove anything. Asking you to show us where kissing and circle the Kabbah is instructed in the Quran is allusion abi? Take your swear list, put it on the Quran and ask Allah to show you where He instructed any Muslim to kiss the Kabbah or circle it 7 times. I dey for you

AlBaqir:

Dear brother, kindly ignore cloudstar. He's among the faceless NL member that intrude a lot into Islamic forum. And he keep going in a cyclic direction no end.

In a short while, in sha Allah, I planned to open a thread on the spirituality of Hajj where each rites are discussed.

When difficult subjects are brought up in Islam, folks like you start complaining and shouting wolf. When it's to debate and call names against your Sunni Muslim house-hold; you are quick to defend Shism. Now you are hear complaining and haven't provided any response to the question about Muslims circle an object and kissing it when Allah hasn't instructed it.

AlBaqir:

Here's Islamic taught about "Tawaf" (circling 7times):
www.nairaland.com/1804065/spiritual-significance-hajj-pilgrimage-mecca#24536356

"Touching and kissing of Black stone"
www.nairaland.com/1806347/symbolism-black-stone-polytheism-monotheism

Again, you haven't answered my question. Did Allah instruct Muslims to circle the Kabbah 7 times and kiss it if they so choose?

nairalife2013

how many times must I tell u kissing d kabbah is just a choice?

Why should anyone travel thousands of miles from their homeland to Mecca to decide where to kiss a stone or not. Are the stones in your village not good enough. Is circling the Kabbah 7 times another choice as well. The rituals speak of idolatry yet you incest otherwise. I have asked you several times, where in the Quran did Allah give Muslim the choice to circle the Kabbah and/or kiss it? Shame no gree you answer

It has nothing to do wid worship. I hav said dis several times but u chose to ignore it.

It has everything to do with worship. It's a ritualistic form of worship. We can easily prove whether it's worship or not. Take any stone and put it in the middle of road in front of your house. At random times, circle it 7 times and recite your prayers and if you feel like it or not; go ahead and kiss it. When you are done, ask them people what they call that.

Yur other questions and instances are irrelevant cos one: u contradict yur own self, two: u do not see dat d Quran doesn't instruct u on d choice of personal behavior as to all u do and where u must worship. It beats me to know u think like this. U could really cause disaffection out of nothing. This is how it starts. I knew your mindset from when u insisted on d difference between the God of Christians and those of the moslems. Let me tell u, u will not succeed in this. And those who think and behave like u will always be the few. But God will help u and us all.

You seem to enjoy living in ignorance. Christians and Muslims believe in one God - they are monotheist. However, the character and attributes of Allah and Yahweh are worlds apart. Allah hates Christians and Jews and curse them; Yahweh doesn't hate anyone.

Christians believe in the deity of Jesus Christ - Muslims vehemently deny it and claim Christians are polytheist. Should I go on?

barackodam

R u kidding me??.??.??

Wat I quoted out and even bolded it, u say u didn't restrict that??.??.??

Well, I now believe u r a former Muslim, its a pity though. Look at it again.

Now tell me u didn't restrict it to Islam again

Perhaps you are so eager to prove your point that you are ignoring my post. Below was my post

Your response shows your level of thinking. As a former Muslim, I followed the Quran, the Al-Hadith, the Sunna and Sira of Mohammad. I didn't follow any and every response from Clerics and Scholars who are not living in the same society or environment as I am living in. Islam has so many opinions. Is it in the Quran that certain common things are haram. If Mohammad was alive, would watching football be haram? That is where you are failing to use your common sense and instead giving up reasoning to some cleric

Now, as a Christian - My primary example is not any pastor or reverend or bishop nor the Pope himself but Jesus the Christ. Common sense tells me that watching a national sport that doesn't hurt anyone or doesn't go against natural moral judgement is proper. I don't need a scholar that dresses like a 7th Century Arabian to tell me that

Abeg, open your eyes and read very well. I didn't limit it only to Islam - my point was to follow the direct founders of both faiths and not so called "Scholars", "Clerics" and "Pastors".

AlBaqir:

Thanks I appreciate that. It is not far from Islamic definition of "worship".

In explaining the verse :
"I do not create man and Jinn but to worship Me"

Muhammad Asad writes on the meaning of Ibadaat (worship):
"Thus, the innermost purpose of the creation of all rational beings is their cognition of the existence of Allah and, hence, their conscious willingness to conform their own existence to whatever they may perceive of His will and plan: and it is this twofold concept of cognition and willingness that gives the deepest meaning to what the Quran describes as "worship". As the next verse shows, this spiritual call does not arise from any supposed "need" on the part of the Creator, who is self-sufficient and infinite in His power, but is designed as an instrument for the inner development of the worshiper, who, by the act of his conscious self-surrender to the all-pervading Creative Will, may hope to come closer to an understanding of that Will and, thus closer to Allah Himself“

So how does kissing and touching the "black-stone" constitute to "worshiping it"?

The kissing the "black-stone" and "circling it 7 times" is a ritual and an act of Islamic worship. From your above description, Allah is and should be the only object of a Muslim respect, veneration and attention. It should be any in-animate object especially one Allah hasn't explicitly instructed Muslims to do.

Ramadan is another example of where worship, respect and veneration is easily recognized - Muslims pray and fast and those are acts of worship - it's an act instructed by Allah. So, when a Muslim circles a "black-stone" 7 times and kiss it - He/She is physically performing an act to an object other than Allah. It becomes a big issue especially when Allah didn't instruct Muslims to kiss the "black-stone" or circle it 7 times. The main question is what is the significance of the stone, why do Muslims kiss it and circle it 7 times?

nairalife2013

so if allah or d holly prophet asked his followers to kiss d kabbah it is a law and do all those things u pointed out itz a law.

Mohammad is not Allah, Mohammad is a man. Mohammad was the same person that encouraged the worship of Allah daughters to win favor with his tribe but later changed his mind. So, Allah is supposedly supreme and not Mohammad. Can you show me in the Quran where Allah tells Muslims to kiss the Kabbah and circle around it 7 times?

So if god asked moses or d isrealites to cross d red sea melt thier golds for sacrifice itz a law?

Crossing the red sea is not a ritual/veneration or worship of any object. Also, it wasn't God that told Israelite to melt their gold and silver; it was Aaron - please get your facts straight. Again, the issue is Muslims circling around an object 7 times and kissing it. Can you show us in the Quran where Allah instructs Muslims to do this?

So if budha whispers to his followers to carryout holy progression itz a law?

Buddah has nothing to do with the kissing the Kabbah and circling around it.

So if Jesus asked peter to walk on d sea or eat d last supper or if He himself used oil or sand to cure an ailment d action becomes a law?

Again, you are side-stepping from the question. The last supper and the instruction to walk on water has nothing to do with kissing a stone or circling around it 7 times. Those are pagan rituals and worship that Arabians performed many years before Mohammad came on the scene.

D holy books are commprehended only by divine common sense. Itz not by might else u follow HIM blindly to an imminent inner mind chaos, war wid your self or fellow human and d resultant altimate death. God help us all.

This is not an issue of Holy Books Bros. This is a simple question that you are ignoring and have so far stylishly refused to provide an answer. My question is simple:

1. If Allah is the only object of veneration, worship and respect in Islam - why do Muslims circle around a stone in Mecca and kiss it. Is Allah in the Kabbah?
2. Did Allah instruct this in the Quran?

barackodam:
U no I had earlier said, Wats u guys p with Islam.
Now there it is, u gave an example, and I sighted mine also, u are now restricting it to Islam alone at the bolded.
Didn't I just sight example of xtian also, try modifying it to the whole religion existing and not singling out Islam as though we d only ones that got scholars who spew trash

I was not restricting it to Islam. I was telling you it is irrelevant if it's not in your holy book. For all we know, another cleric can come out tomorrow and issue another fatwa that has not bearing to Muslims. My contention was to use your common sense.

Al-Baqir:


Be a gentleman cloudstar. Answer my questions first afterall I was the first that throw those questions to you.

Worship is to show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites. It can be expressed in many ways but usually worship involves an act.

nairalife2013

from your well lettered post, i suppose u are educated, that should therefor liberate yur mind and giv yur reasoning and comprehesion of societal values an edge... U dont hav to say "go and fight and kill" literally before u inspire violence. U brew up violence atimes by supporting issues dat may inspire violencce, either ignorantly or knowingly. U whip up sentiment by leaning (in dis case) to d personal beliefs of certain individuals while quoting d holybooks wrongly

Read my post again and AGAIN. There was no where I alluded, inferred or reference violence in anyway and at anytime. So, you have no point here

at 32 wid a wife and two kids, i have a responsibilty in my household and in d outside world to always say d right thing or remain silent, God never said u must worship Him in a particular place.

You must be clear on the God you are referring to. I have stated that the God as described in the Bible and the God in the Quran are two different beings. The Biblical God instruction of worship is simple: God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. The instruction here is direct - in Spirit and in truth. God didn't ask Christian to go to Jerusalem or to Rome or to anywhere else for that matter. The Islamic God made the Pilgrimage (hajj) to Mecca for those who are able as part of the 5 pillars of Islam. It is a requirement. The question you should ask if what happens at the Hajj. If you can describe the event i.e. the circling of the Kabbah, kissing of the sacred stone and the other religious rituals - it will be easy for us to determine if it's worship or not. Besides, Allah is not in the Kabbah so I don't see why millions of muslims will shave their hair, circle the kabbah several times, dress in white and kiss a stone if it was required by Allah.

If u chose to go to kabbah or jerusalem or europe or america or África to worship Him so be it; if u chose to kiss d church or d mosque or ornaments thereabouts so be it.

Unfortunately for you, your description of the practice can't simply be answered with "So be it". The difference is that Muslims are told to go to the Kabbah explicitly. Christianity doesn't have such practices - I have already made that clear.

who told u these people worship these things in place of allah or jesus. To venerate a person or thing is very difrent from to worship same.

Jesus has nothing to do with this matter. This is an issue with millions of Muslims performing the Hajj. Let me give you a summary of what happens at the hajj - I am not doing it because you do not know, I am doing it so that you don't play pretend and try and define the Hajj as veneration. The Hajj is composed of:

1. Putting on the ihram
2. Entering the Haram
3. Proceeding to Mina
4. Standing on the Plain of 'Arafat (obligatory)
5. The Three Pillars
6. The Sacrifice Ritual
7. Taking off the ihram
8. Making the Tawaf (obligatory): At the Sacred Mosque that encloses the Ka'ba (cube), the pilgrim positions himself or herself in front of the Black Stone (Hajar al-Aswad). From that position, he or she circumambulates the Ka'ba seven times, all the time reciting prayers.
9. Kissing the Hajar al-Aswad: While circling the Ka'ba, following the example of the Prophet, the pilgrim tries to get close to the Black Stone and, if possible, touch or kiss it. After the tawaf is complete, the pilgrim goes to the Place of Abraham, i.e., the place where Abraham stood and worshiped God.
10. Making the Sa'y

Please review steps 8 and 9. If you are honest and objective - there is no way in the world, you will claim a ritual of circling the Kabbah 7 times and kissing the stone is merely 'veneration'. This is the same practice that pagan Arabs did when they worshiped their 360 idols and allah being one of them.

D isrealites outrightly disowned d true God of thier fathers in prefarence to idols. Dis is an isolated case isnt it? When u pray always ask God to bless u wid simplicity of d soul, wid dat u can discern His ways and conquer yur mind. Dis is d shortcut, according to asham, from long wandering. Make same suplication for all men. Other points raised in yur post are apparently irrelevant. Thanks tho for corr on bhudism and s.arabian rigid laws

I am not doubting that you are honest before your God and wish to be a better person and raise your kids with good morals and help others. My point is you are either dis-missing your religious teachings (if you are a muslim) or you are not been honest.

barackodam:

1: oh! I see

2: fyn, no qualms with that.

3: if common sense would tell us we can't and science proof our stomach can't digest grass, why on earth would a pastor instruct his/her congregation to start eating grass,

Even claiming God TLD I'm to do so?

Bros, when did this discussion turn to pastor telling who to eat grass? I already addressed the case of "Scholars", "Clerics" and "Pastors". If anyone, irrespective of who they are; tell you something that is not in-line with the core values and beliefs of Islam, it holds no substance. I can't make the point any simpler than that

barackodam

U guys come here all the time claiming former Muslims, do u tink that wud nuv us any inch or wat??.

Nope, it just means we know the traditions and at one time listened to "scholars" just like you are doing now

By the way, ur reply said certain common things are forbidden, wud u mind giving me example of some??.

I was asking you a question, I wasn't making a statement. My bad if that didn't come across clear enough

If Mohammed wer alive football being forbidden is wat I cannot answer cos am not a messenger of God, buh like u said, common sense wud tell u that nothin in football is sin. Hadith said that anything that isn't against Islam socially is halal. So tell me wat is against Islam in football that makes it forbidden and or wud make us listen to d cleric.

That is the question for you to answer. If common sense tells you that there is nothing wrong with football and it's no sin. How in the world does some "scholar" deem it other-wise?

Al-Baqir:


Really the biggest problem with you in conversation is the fact that you are faceless with no identity to stand for or recognized.

Not christian Not Muslim Not Jew Not Atheist. Indeed you are "Cloud" star. Only when you have identity will you be "bright or visible" star.

Besides, just curious. What is worship in your own understanding?
And how does kissing, touching and embracing a symbolic stone constitute to "worshiping it" vis-a-vis idolatory?

The question should be - what is worship in Islam? After that, please explain in detail what a Muslim does when he/she visits Meccah or perform the Hajj?

Apatheist:
You are a Wahabbist?

Nope, I am not

nairalife2013

so dat should make some1 go to kill abi. Some of u christians dat use oil or cross or hymbooks or those who clap and dance madly and ostensibly like david and those who only stay in thier sit and do not clap or dance, or those dat burn insence or drink and sprinkle holy water or those dat do assignment or those who go to jerusalem to see many places and touch and bring bak so many objects for d much aclaimed divine connection do u go to war when others dont worship in yur own method?

Where in my post did you see anywhere I suggested violence or killing of any kind? Abeg, stick to the topic! Try as hard as you may, there are no laws in the Bible that encourages any Christian to visit Bethlehem or worship any image, stone or statue of any kind. Idolatry is one of the main reasons God punished Israel several times.

Muslims claim they are Monotheist, they claim they worship one God and no other. Also, the idea of Allah confined in a stone is an unforgivable sin in Islam call sirk. So, my question is simple - If Allah is not in the Kabbah and He didn't tell you to worship it - why do you guys go there and kiss it and venerate it? So, please answer my question before you go off point and start talking about Christians. Christians are not allowed in Saudi Arabia in the first place. Be objective and provide a straight forward answer.

System of worship is ceremonial and is not d means of acceptance by d true God.. If u touch a stone or rub olive oil it may not necesarily mean u are worshiping those objects and no sane man would kill or hate another becos he is different from them.

Again, I have not encouraged or mentioned anything about violence or killings. I forbid violence or the killing or anyone based on their beliefs or "mode of worship". So, if you decide to worship a stone, that is your cup of tea; just don't throw it at others. Regarding the system or mode of worship, I think you are been dishonest. Muslims claim that they are the only ones that truly perform the act of worship because they prostrate in the direction of Meccah. So, the ceremonial form or the system of worship is to prostrate and not to KISS A STONE . There is no where in the Quran it tells you to kiss the Kabbah in Meccah. This was an act that was performed by 7th century pagan Arabians. Except of course you are a polytheist.

This killins and rancour over religion and methods should be wholely discouraged where ever it is perrceived! Saudi arabia is one of d most decent countries in d world and they welcome improvement in human life and are moving fast in education for d liberation of d mind.

Again, I never mentioned killing or violence or anything of that sort. Saudi Arabia is a theocracy based on Sharia. To you that may be decent but to me, I will not stay there even if you paid me. It doesn't encourage free speech, it marginalizes minorities such as Shias. It has one of the worst cases of human abuse and women abuse to name a few.

God's children suffer for lack of knowledge both in islam n xtianity.

True but this is not related to Christianity. Please be objective here. To get one thing clear - the God in Christianity and Islam are too different beings, so it is important that we don't get it twisted.

The perpetrators of these acts are those wid narrowminds and are mostly ignorant and psycologically impeded. Any religion be it xtianity,islam or bhudism will continue to lose followers and gain universal condemnation due to a few unscroupulous elements widin them whose actions are hardly condemned by the majority of such religion-unknown to them they wil someday turn against thier own home in dat same spirit used against others.

Get your facts straight - Buddhism is not a religion. The issue here is that the "elements" you are talking about are almost always Muslims. Now, I am not saying that there are no bad eggs in other religion nor am I saying Islam is the only factor if violence in the world. I am saying that there is an interpretation problem in Islam. What makes one Muslim radical and another moderate. How can two muslims read the same passage and one interpret it differently than the other? The issue becomes very volatile when that has to do with violence and killing.

Look at the disgrace that is going on between Sunnis and Shittes. Look at the killings in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and a host of other Islamic territories. If it's not Boko Haram, it is ISIS. If that is not enough, it is Hamas or Al-Queda. Una no dey tire?

Why must u fight others in d first place? And when u see u are loosing u turn against yur own selves for final combat and self anihilation? A mad man(mentally challenged) is often d last one to know there is somthin wrong wid him dat he needs help. They will not stop, dis is for sure, they will fight and bomb but they will never win and take over kabbah, let alone saudi arabia. Extremists!!! All those who kill will be judged, i believe worst than others. God is not dumb dat if i wink at som1 who misbehaves or try to convince him he is wrong and go my way He(God)will punish me equally wid a man who actually kills all those he presumes to be misbehaving! If killing is so sweet and legal God has d power to do it better than man! But God has given us this freedom to do as we wish till judgement day.

All well said and done but what makes them extremist - why is it only MUSLIMS that are tempted to be extremist? Why can't Buddhist monks become extremist, why can't Catholic nuns become extremist?

barackodam:

Look bro/sis, I need not blame u wen most of Wat Jesus practiced during his lifetime, u ppl are not.

Now back to ur QST. U say we chose wat to do and Wat not to do, havnt we got brain. If we do all we are told to do, same set of u xtians wud come out and claim we are brainwashed, so if ur cleric tells u to praise god, won't u do that happily??, if the same cleric tells u to put ur hand inside fire, assuming u r so dumb to do DT, wud u have done it willingly without being reluctant or questioning him/her??.??.??

That's the answer to UR QST

Your response shows your level of thinking. As a former Muslim, I followed the Quran, the Al-Hadith, the Sunna and Sira of Mohammad. I didn't follow any and every response from Clerics and Scholars who are not living in the same society or environment as I am living in. Islam has so many opinions. Is it in the Quran that certain common things are haram. If Mohammad was alive, would watching football be haram? That is where you are failing to use your common sense and instead giving up reasoning to some cleric

Now, as a Christian - My primary example is not any pastor or reverend or bishop nor the Pope himself but Jesus the Christ. Common sense tells me that watching a national sport that doesn't hurt anyone or doesn't go against natural moral judgement is proper. I don't need a scholar that dresses like a 7th Century Arabian to tell me that

barackodam:


We have dozens of Islamic scholars, only one said its haram, and u ppl wud cum here and be saying trash.


BTW, if I may ask, is it any of u ppls concerns??.??.??
Are we the Muslims complaini ??.??.??
Why do u ppl get bothered about Islam??.??.??

Please. Pursue ur xtianity and leave Islam for its loyal worshippers

Oh shut up - that is the problem with some ignorant Muslims. You pick and chose what you want to accept and what you don't want to accept. The same class of scholars will tell you that using the left hand is haram but forgot that people are born that way. Others will tell you it is legal to beat your wife because it's the Sunnah of Mohammad. Don't you have a brain and free will - must a 7th century Arabian culture always tell you what you must do?

If kissing stone that was worshiped by 7th century Arabians is not idolatry then I do not know what is. Many Muslims claim they worship one God and they are Monotheist yet they travel at least one time in their life time and possibly spend their entire life savings to enrich Saudi Arabians who are already well off to to kiss the Kabbah and pay it homage. Wasn't that what the arab pagans did before Islam? If you guys are still doing it today, what is the difference between Allah then and the Allah now?

Is Allah in the Kabbah?

Al-Baqir:


Please vedaxcool for once let's dialogue reasonably and stop childish act and propaganda. Qur'an calls for "dialogue with wisdom and good manners; and argument with solid clear evidence intellectually based".

Pardon my ignorance! Which "IsLaM" are you talking about please? That of Muhammad or Umar and co?

Some of what I can see is:

1. The prophet (saws) forbade Tarawih in Jama'a while Umar sanctioned it in Jama'a

2. The prophet (saws) never instructed Bilal "As-Salatu khair mina nawm" while Umar ordered it to be added in adhan

3. Bilal used to say "Haya ala khair amal" in adhan as instructed by the holy prophet (saws) while Umar erased it

4. Prophet (saws) never wipe his ears in wudhu (Qur'an says your head AND feet; while Uthman introduced ear's wiping.

5. Prophet (saws) said he left "book of God and his ahl al-bayt"; Umar said he (saws)'s talking nonsense (yahjur) and that "book of God is enough" while your Ulama advocate "Book of God and sunnah"

6. While the prophet (saws) never mentioned Abu Bakar, Umar and Uthman as "khulafau Rashidun" or said they will be 4, your creed said they were 4 and even ranked them in that order. 12 successors is what we found in your esteem collections of hadith.

These are just tips of the ice-berg!

Kindly provide intellectual explanation to all these

Were these changes had in Hadiths or were they added to the Quran after-ward?

The Shia-Sunni rivalry continues 1400 years later. Passing by and observing

LagosShia:

if you want to know who is behind any of these groups, trace its financial sponsors or its source of funds. going by news reports, most of the groups that carry out sectarian killings in pakistan are funded by the saudis, either directly, or indirectly by wealthy saudi individuals or its intelligence agency in secret. they will call ISIL a terrorist group within saudi arabia but calssify them as "Sunni rebels" when they are fighting Shia in Iraq and the government of assad in syria. double standards. and this yeye ISIL is made up mostly of foreign fighters who are not iraqis or syrian. they are in other words hired mercenaries to spill the blood of muslims.

This is true. However, some Muslims here in NL will ignore your statement because of sectarian reasons. The primary financial backers of groups like the Taliban, Al-Queda, ISIS and the likes are Sunni bodies and governments. What they are forgetting is that some of these groups will get out their control and will come back to bite them. I am watching how all this will go down

In summary, this is a Sunni and Shitte 1400 year old rivalry. It's nothing new, just old events in making new head-lines.

BetaThings:

The truth is that Christians attack Islam as a form of defence
There is NOTHING negative they can say about Islam that one cannot find excess of it in the history of Christianity

The Bible forbids a woman from speaking in church or leading men or to spare the life of an apostate or a witch
We can go on
They now say Islam commands killing even when they are on the queue to board a flight to go and live permanently in Dubai/Malaysia/Saudi Arabia, they claim women are oppressed by Muslims (tell that to Hilary Clinton) etc
Islam is intolerant - the height of it!!!!
Muslims go to work every Friday but Christians protested when the partly inconclusive election in Anambra was shifted to Sunday

Any Christian who truly understands the propaganda industry serving to cover the truth about Christianity will realise that he is misguided
Christians oppose as a REFLEX action anything done by muslims
They get excited and a darkness envelope their day when see a woman in hijab or a muslim who appears to be practising
We say if Christians want anything Christian Banking, Saturday and Sunday workfree etc, let them have it
But talk about things for Muslims, then you see "incomplete metamorphosis" of reasoning - the Osun worshippers will ask for their own, Nigeria is a secular state
As if when Easter Holiday was approved for them they cared about no holiday for Osun worshippers
Or when we used public money to pay for a NATIONAL Christmas Tree, the secularity of the nation was temporarily lifted

A Muslim is what every Christians pretends to be in tolerance, forthrightness etc

Perhaps the Killing between Shittes and Sunnis all over the world is caused by Christians too. Oh wait - ISIS/ISIL must somehow be orchestrated by Christians. Maybe it was Christians that started Sharia in Nigeria or that motivated the Sudanese government to threaten a women with death because she choose to be a Christian.

The blame game wouldn't get you anywhere. No one is denying that there were wars in the Bible; any Christian that denies that is ignorant or at best not honest. However, to liken the Christianity with Islam to justify and safe face is the hall-mark of hypocrisy

vedaxcool

but you said muslims are a favored race, now you are saying not all muslims are part of that favoured race, any case u know what is called a prediction? shey? in essence he foretold that 12 rulers would be from the quraysh let compare it to this prediction found in the bible,

It wasn't me that "said" anything. I quoted the Hadiths and Quran. Muslims are favored and are considered the best of people when it comes to non-muslims. So, whether it be a Shitte or Sunni, Allah consider them greater and better than non-muslims. Again, I didn't say that; it is stated in your Quran.

That the 12 rulers will be from his own tribe is favorism over other tribes in Arabia. He wanted to keep the succession of ruling in his own tribe. Ali wasn't from his tribe. As you are aware, this is one of the reason that caused the deep division between the Sunnis and Shias/Shittes. How many wars have been fought between Muslims for this single fact?

Jesus will be a member of the tribe of Judah. Prophecy: Genesis 49:10. Fulfilled: Luke 3:33.

let's repeat your allegation, who ever said the above placed the tribe of juda over all other tribes of Israel and other race,

Jesus will be from the lineage of King David. Prophecy: Jeremiah 23:5. Fulfilled: Matthew 1:6.

Here we see that David lineage (incidentally in the lineage there are many murderers and incest abominations) placed over every other family and groups in Israel.

You should be reminded that the 1st king Saul was from a different tribe than Judah. So, it's not a matter of tribe. And yes, David committed several sins and God punished him for it but unlike Saul, he repented. Compare that to Allah who deliberately mis-leads believers.

That is what your allegation sound like, in the hadith you stated you simply don't what you are talking about, Muhammed predicted 12 rulers who rule muslims, but historically there are over a hundred and then came the Turks, most of the hundreds are arabs who were from quraysh tribe but the prophet specifically mentioned 12, in essence what you claim is exalting the quraysh tribe was simply a prediction about what would happen in the future and guess what it did!

No kidding, Wasn't Ali more qualified than any other Muslim and on several occassions saved Mohammad's life several times? Why didn't Allah consider Ali?

poor you, u hurridly jump up when u reach 9:97 that u failed to reach 9:99

Really!. The greatest story of Mohammad's discrimination and double standards is reflected in his statement: "Succession after me should be vested only in Quraish". It appears you should read your Hadith more, I will quote the following:

Al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 704-705: Narrated Muhammad bin Jubair bin Mut'im:

That while he was with a delegation from Quraish to Muawiya, the latter heard the news that 'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As said that there would be a king from the tribe of Qahtan. On that Muawiya became angry, got up and then praised Allah as He deserved, and said, "Now then, I have heard that some men amongst you narrate things which are neither in the Holy Book, nor have been told by Allah's Apostle. Those men are the ignorant amongst you. Beware of such hopes as make the people go astray, for I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'Authority of ruling will remain with Quraish, and whoever bears hostility to them, Allah will destroy him as long as they abide by the laws of the religion.' "

Narrated Ibn Umar:

The Prophet said, "Authority of ruling will remain with Quraish, even if only two of them remained."

It only shows you don't read your Hadiths and display lack of knowledge when it comes to Islam history on this subject.

MOVING FORWARD: Muhammad's confederates, who came from outside Quraish, were his best supporters during his calling. Sa'd Ibn Ubadah was first on the list of Muhammad's successors because he received him at Medina, and called Muhammad's people to accept and support him. Had it not been for Sa'd, Muhammad's calling would have totally failed. Despite that, Muhammad ordered the succession to stay in his Quraish tribe. Although the people of Quraish persecuted him and declared war against him, he gave them, not his allies (the Ansars), the right to succeed him.

Here we read again:

Al-Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 254: Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "This matter (caliphate) will remain with the Quraish even if only two of them were still existing."

I can quote more hadiths but it's clear that he wanted his tribe to rule only. It pokes a hole in your explanation bros

so obviously u have no point. let compare it to an statement credited to Jesus;

It shows you don't read your Hadith and Quran extensively

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly."Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs." Yes it is, Lord," she said. "Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table." matt 15: 22 - 23

only one who is blind would fail to note the racist connotation of the verse

I guess the "racist" Jesus was "racist" enough to heal her daughter - hmmmmm!. Perhaps Mohammad can learn a thing or two

isn't ironical a hadith that demands every Muslim to obey their ruler even if his black is what you turn around to claim racism? you deserve everyones' pity and prayers! you have no point, even in the bible, Jesus never told his Jewish brethren to obey any black person, instead he restates the pre eminience of the Jews over non jews,

As always, you have to bring in the Bible to clarify the Islamic text, as if they can't exist without the Bible. No one is denying the hadith is talking about obeying your ruler irrespective of his color. The issue is the description of the "black ruler" in the hadith. Why couldn't Mo just say - "Hey guys, you can obey your ruler irrespective of his skin color or even if he is black. Attributing a black's man head to that of a raisin is at best belittling and insulting.

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly."Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs." Yes it is, Lord," she said. "Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table." matt 15: 22 - 23

You forgot to include verses 24 - 27 of Matthew 15. Jesus pointed out that the gospel was to be given first to the Jews. The woman understood Jesus implication and was willing to settle for "crumbs". What did Jesus do next? If we follow your line that he was racist; we wouldn't have what verse 28 says"

Matt 15: 28 = "Then Jesus answered, Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted. And her daughter was healed that very hour".

If it was an issue of race, He would have not healed her daughter.

Here, we clearly see that a non black slave was worth two black slaves

Sahih Muslim 10:3901 = J[i]abir (Allah be pleased with him) reported: There came a slave and pledg- ed allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man)[/i]

where is the racism or you want to start your usually tirades of desperation?

Where in that statement did I say he was racist - I said to Mohammad, he valued black slaves less as compared to non-black slaves since he traded two black slaves for a non-black slave. The fact is this - He was a slave owner; that alone doesn't speak well for someone who is suppose to be the best and perfect example to mankind.

Al-Tabari, Vol. 2, p. 11, p. 11 = Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African’s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.

A lot of tales in Tabari are not considered authentic.

Ah, the "Not authentic" phrase to your rescue huh? If it was a statement you agreed with; then it will be authentic . I rest my case. The fact that it is a Hadith is enough for me.

Sahih Bukhari 9:87:161 = Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I saw (in a dream) a black woman with unkempt hair going out of Medina and settling at Mahai'a, i.e., Al-Juhfa. I interpreted that as a symbol of epidemic of Medina being transferred to that place (Al-Juhfa)."

please can u point the racism here?

Where did I say he was racist in this statement? He likened a black woman with unkempt her to future epidemic to Mahai'a. That statement is degrading to say the least. It's like saying, black women with unkempt hair brings bad-luck.

There are two many Hadiths and Islamic sources to quote. It's hard to claim that Mohammad either didn't respect blacks or was racist.

No there are actually to many dishonest Islamophobes who resort to quoting wikiislam and making allegations that are applies more to the christianity!

That is your known strategy, to discredit Christianity and justify Mohammad actions - as if that answers the questions. We quote Muslim sources saying:

1. Mohammad struck his child bride in her chest and it caused her great pain as a result, he was violent: Muslims like you ignore the question and talk about the crusades
2. Mohammad said it is alright for muslims to marry up to 4 wives but he excluded himself from this rule and prevented his son-in-law from marrying another wife because his daughter who was his wife complained about it.

The fact is simple, if you state otherwise - you will betray your religion. So you rather justify whatever actions for religious reasons.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.

Here is Allah saying otherwise:

Ye (muslims) are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (Surah 3:110)

Here is Allah distinguishing and calling non-muslims the worst of creatures:

Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (Surah 98:6)

You keep shooting yourself in the foot

lanrexlan

Muslims are the best people evolved from mankind only if they enjoined what's right and forbids what's wrong and believe in the oneness of Allah.You can also join the best of mankind

Bros, that is not what the Quran said. The Quran said Muslims are the best of people because they are Muslims & believe in Allah. Stop adding salt and pepper to secularize the Surah. The second part of the Surah confirmed that some Jew & Christians have faith; so this is not an issue about faith or monotheism as Jews & Christians believe in One God.

What should I say about you? Can't reason or comprehend simple thing?? Humans are equal in the sight of Allah if faith is to be taken away,no white is superior to black nor vice versa because we are created equally and descended from Adam.
But when faith is included,some people accepted faith while others rejected faith then,the best of men are those who have faith and keep the commandments of Allah.

So, you know better than Allah that said non-muslims are the worst of creatures abi? The Quran claims to be very clear and anyone can understand it. So, why didn't Allah make himself clear? Why didn't he say Muslims, Christians and Jews are the best of peoples? You are here putting words in Allah's mouth.

A believer is beloved to Allah than a disbeliever.Why? Because of his faith in Allah and keeping his commandments.Is it hard to comprehend?

That makes sense, what doesn't make sense is for Allah to HATE people that don't have faith in him and deliberately mislead them.

Surah 36:7-10 = Certainly the word has proved true of most of them, so they do not believe. Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft. And We have made before them a barrier and a barrier behind them, then We have covered them over so that they do not see. And it is alike to them whether you warn them or warn them not: they do not believe.

How can "God" prevent disbelievers from believing in him; isn't "God" supposed to make a way for them to come to him? Na wa for Allah oh!

See this simple analogue,who's more beloved and dearer to an employer? A hard working employee or an employee that plays with his job? Reason yourself if you can.

An employer is NOT GOD for heavens sake bros. You can't compare the character of God to that of an employer.

Animals are better than disbelievers because they praise and glorify Allah.Then if animals glorify Allah and disbelievers don't,are the disbelievers not worst than animals? Verily,the words of Allah are true.
I am very sure you just jumped into conclusion,you didn't read those posts before posting.

WOW!. So animals glorify and praise Allah. So animals are Muslims too . You guys will kill me with laugh?. Again, Allah should be able to better express himself if he meant what you are saying. In so many worlds; you have said the same thing - If one doesn't believe in Allah, he is less than an animal. So, if you neighbor teenager who for the sake of explanation happens to be a Christian was drowning in a pool and a goat was drowning as well - by your explanation, Allah will save the goats life and leave the teenager to perish abi? What a god!

The Quran and prophet Muhammad(pbuh) last sermon never contradicts.The Quran says in Surah Al-Hujurat 49:13 -O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female,and made you into nations and tribes,that you may know one another.Verily,THE MOST HONORABLE OF YOU WITH ALLAH IS THAT (BELIEVER) WHO HAS AT-TAQWA [i.e. PIETY,SELF-CONTROL].Verily,Allah is All-Knowing,All-Aware.
Did prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said anything contradictory? Absolutely NO!
All mankind is from Adam and Eve,an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab;also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white EXCEPT BY PIETY AND GOOD ACTION.
You didn't read this abi? How did a black has superiority over a white? Through piety.How did a white has superiority over a black? Through piety.If a black man has piety and an arab rejects faith,the black is superior to that arab and vice versa.
Dude,next time if you don't have any tangible thing to contribute just keep watching you hear

Why didn't you tackle the verses I mentioned. If we are all equal in Allah's eyes as you want us to believe why can't Allah's character be the same irrespective of one's faith. Should a non-muslim be considered less than a goat or a dog because he doesn't believe in Allah or because he is not a muslim?

If Mohammad treated all men equal, why did he own and sell slaves?

Al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 351:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:

A man decided that a slave of his would be manumitted after his death and later on he was in need of money, so the Prophet took the slave and said, "Who will buy this slave from me?" Nu'aim bin 'Abdullah bought him for such and such price and the Prophet gave him the slave

Here is Allah transforming Jews in Swines and Pigs

Surah 5:60 = "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"

Can you explain to me, how can Allah who created everyone will decide to turn some of his creations in swines and pigs just because they don't believe in him.

Surah 2:65 = And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

Here, Allah transforms the Jews into apes because they didn't observe the Sabbath. Can you please explain why Allah will do something like this. Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath, does that mean Jesus will be transformed into an ape as well?

(Surah 3:32) Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith. So, if you don't believe in Allah, he hates you. How can the 'Almighty God' hate me because I don't believe in him? God hates sin, He doesn't hate people.

It's very clear that Allah is picky on who he chooses to love and hate based on their faith. I honestly pity his subjects

vedaxcool

lol so muslim is now a race?

So, you ignored the Surahs I quoted and decided to cherry pick my words. My mistake, Islam is not a race and muslims are not race. Can you please explain:

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (Surah 3:110)

Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (Surah 98:6)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (Surah 8:55)

If Allah loves everyone equally, why does describe non-muslims as the worst of creatures and muslims as the best of peoples?

https://www.nairaland.com/1264396/8-telling-signs-suffer-islamophobia

I have been called/termed worst! . I wear it with pride.

poor him indeed, he goes on in his next post to contradict his point, being a Muslim no longer makes you part of a favoured race but means you retain your race and could be discriminated by other races especially the arabs, why? Are u in any way related to Mitt? u know flip flopping?

That is what you are good at, ignoring the questions and running off in another direction .