frosbel:

Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ , Son of GOD and King of the new heaven and earth ?

That is exactly what it is that I believe and what Scripture ask me to confess and believe. What I do not believe and confess is the foolish, false, demonic, and deceptive doctrine "Jesus IS Go!", since nowhere in Scripture is this ever said.

"Jesus IS God!"?
http://frank4yahweh.webs.com

Mr anony:
I was going to reply you but when I saw you use the phrase "so called New Testament" I decided not to bother. It makes no sense arguing with someone when we don't have anything in common upon which to base our arguments. If you don't respect the New Testament, there is no point proving anything to you from it.

I have never said that I have no respect for the so-called "New Testament". Have you not seen me in this forum thread constantly quoting it?

frosbel:

Mary was engaged to be married to Joseph - Fact

As was the customer of those days , she was a virgin, a position strengthened by bible accounts - Fact

She was found to be with child, in other words pregnant before the consummation of her marriage with Joseph - Fact

Joseph decided to put her away because of the enormous shame that will result if his fiancée was found to be with child before marriage.- Fact

An Angel told Joseph in a dream that this child was of the Holy Spirit, in other words the act of conceiving was supernaturally initiated by the Spirit of GOD- Fact

The bible debunks your position all over, sorry Sir.

No, it is erroneous translations that you are attempting to debunk my position by and this error most certainly is not "all over" your so-called "Holy Bible", but has only been placed in a few passages of Scripture.

FYI, not all so-called "Holy Bible" translations use the word 'virgin'. I side with the translations that do not use the word 'virgin' since in the original prophecy it speaks of a young woman or maiden and I am already aware of another prophecy that says that Yahshua would be of the seed of and a desendant of David. This prophecy allows for a proper translation of the words that have been erroneously translated as 'virgin'.
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/pareidolia.htm

Yahshua can not be a descendant of David and of the seed of David and at the same time be miraculously born of a 'virgin.' So, I have to choose between these two concepts and find that I must choose that he was in fact of the seed of and a descendant of David and not born of a 'virgin' as it has been falsely translated using the Greek Septuagint. In their translating from the Greek Septuagint they in turn inherited the Greek concept of a 'virgin' birth that is a concept that goes along with their Greek soter (saviour) that was born of a virgin. The so-called "Church" changed many doctrines taught in Scripture to match pagan doctrines to better encourage these pangans to convert to thier form of Christianity.

He will speak against the Most High and oppress His set apart people and try to change the set times and His instruction [torah, law]. The set apart people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time (Daniyl 7:25).

I would encourage you to read and study the following article:

Virgin Birth Issues
http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/topicindex/225-virgin-birth-issues.html

Mee234:
Bros HE was talking about him pre existing Abraham because the question He was answering was '' though are not yet 50....... '' not between u and father Abraham who greater

The "though are not yet 50" is the misundestanding of the Sanhedrin. I take the side of the Messiah Yahshua, not the side of the Sanhedrin that were out to entrap Yahshua in his words. The Sanhedrin falsley accused Yahshua of blasphemy by making himself out to be "God" when in fact he had told them that he was the SON of Yahweh ["God"]. They also falsely accused him of breaking the Sabbath http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/729504257/did-yahshua-messiah-break-the-sabbath .

Why would anyone use the deceptive words of the Sanhedrin to defend a doctrine that Yahshua did not teach? No, he was or is not Yahweh, but he is as Scripture clearly teaches and asks us to believe and confess, that He is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh ["God"]. This is what was exactly revealed to Kepha by Father Yahweh Himself:

Yahshua replied, "Blessed are you, Simon ben [son of] Yahnah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven (Mattithyah [Matthew] 16:17).

Note that this verse makes known that FATHER Yahweh was not flesh and blood, but spirit. His SON Yahshua was flesh and blood, so he can not be his own FATHER Yahweh ["God"]. Any simplton knows that one can not be their own father and that one can not be their own son!

I would encourage you to read and study the following article:

Virgin Birth Issues
http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/topicindex/225-virgin-birth-issues.html

frosbel:


I disagree with you.

Read this :

"His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”)." - Matthew 1

Yes, I know that you disagree with me and I have read and studied a large number of translations of this prophecy in the so-called "Old Testament" and the so-called "New Testament", but again, this prophecy said that she was a young woman or maiden in it's original state in the so-called "Old Testament.", not a virgin. Note that the translation that you submitted not only uses the word 'virgin', but also goes so far as to embelish with other specific words in this translation to promote the "vigin birth" doctrine compared to the translation that I had submitted previously:

"Mark! The maiden will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call His name Immanuel" --a word which signifies 'God with us' (Mattithyah [Matthew] 1:23 - Weymouth New Testament).

If you can not see the embelishment in the translation that you submitted, then you are blind!

FTI, I am not an inerrantist concerning Scripture translations. I believe that there is bias in translation and especially by Trinitarian translators.

"The author of the Gospel of Matthew used the Septuagint's translation of the Hebrew word almah as the Greek parthenos (unequivocally a virgin) in support of his concept of the virgin birth of Jesus. Scholars agree that almah has nothing to do with virginity 'per se', but many conservative Christians still judge the acceptability of new Bible translations by the way they deal with Isaiah 7:14." SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_7:14

frosbel:


I was going to like your theology until I realised you do not believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, please explain.



"All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us " - Isaiah 7:14

This is not a "virgin", but is a young woman or maiden.

"Mark! The maiden will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call His name Immanuel" --a word which signifies 'God with us' (Mattithyah [Matthew] 1:23 - Weymouth New Testament).


Betulah means virgin
Aalmah means young woman

Apparently, Strong's entry for 'aalmah (5959) admits that it is the feminine of 'elem' (5958). That entry lists "lad, young man, stripling" but accurately mentions nothing of virginity.

There is another word which can mean 'young woman'.

In Deuteronomy 22:25 we have 'naarah betulah' to mean ' young woman who is a virgin'. It does not mean 'young woman who is a young woman'.

Naarah is the feminine of naar (a youth) .

Saying that 'aalmah' does not mean 'young woman' because some young women are virgins is like a Turkish-speaker trying to convince an English-speaker that 'princess', although the feminine form of 'prince', actually means 'red-head' because some princesses have red hair.

Apologists try to get around this by pointing to Joel 1:8 where 'betulah' is used of a married woman. Therefore, they say, 'betulah' cannot mean virgin.

Normally, a woman does not lose her virginity during the marriage ceremony. It is quite in order for Joel to talk of a virgin who has suffered a grevious loss and lost her husband. The loss would be especially grevious if the marriage had not yet been consummated.

I believe that Yahshua had to be a man just like us in every way in that he would be able to sympathize with us.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15).

I believe Yahshua to be a descendant of David and of his seed. This is what Scripture clearly teaches. I can not see how he can be born of a virgin and be of the seed of David at the same time. Many Chistians simply explain this contradiction away by saying "He was "both God and man" or "a God-Man."

Yahshua, Born of A Virgin?
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/pareidolia.htm

Mee234:
And I suppose the verse of the Bible about' 'before Abraham I was' is not in your Bible.

Sure is! The problem is with one'e own private interpretation of this verse. Yahshua was not speaking of his pre-existing his birth before Abraham was born or existed, but he was answering the question posed by the Sanhedrin to him in their asking "Are you GREATER than our father Abraham?" In his use of the word "before" in this verse he is speaking of his preeminence over Abraham, not that he existed before him.

What did Yahshua mean when he said:

"Before Abraham Was, I Am"?
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/YAHWEHFrank/IAm.html

Mr anony: Frosbel's modus operandi.

Step 1. Open a thread and announce that you want to show that Christ did not pre-exist His birth

Step 2. When you are asked why you think Christ did not exist from the beginning, don't answer just accuse the person who asked you the question of arrogance

Step 3. When shown from the bible that Jesus clearly existed before His birth, ignore that too instead ask an irrelevant question pertaining to trinity

Step 4. When provided with more verse including those of Jesus Himself telling people that He existed before his physical birth, dodge those as well, instead ask the irrelevant question of whether the pre-existence of Christ is relevant to Christianity. Conveniently forget that you bothered to open a thread that you didn't think was relevant at all.

Step 5. When finally pressed to the wall and asked to make your case clear why you hold the opinions you hold. Promise everyone that you will come back to answer properly as soon as you "finish what you are doing now".

Step 6. Unfollow the thread. They can wait forever if they like.

Step 7. After a week or two, open another thread on the very same topic and repeat the process all over again

The problem is, nowhere in Scripture is it made known that he existed before His birth and nowhere in Scripture is there one verse telling or the Messiah himself telling people that he existed before his physical birth. There is no verse in Scripture that clearly or actually says 'Yahshua existed before his physical birth.' nor is he ever recorded in the so-called "New Testament" as saying 'I existed before my physical birth.'

shdemidemi:

I have never had a discussion with you, so I will like to ask if you believe in the bible before engaging you.

Is it not obvious that I believe Scripture from what I have posted? Just because I do not believe as you do does not mean that I do not believe what Scripture actually says.

shdemidemi:

You are too forward in this discussion. What do you understand by the Godhead?

I do not see the word 'Godhead' as being plural, since it does not say 'Godsheads (plural).' The head of EVERY man is Father Yahweh which most certainly includes THE MAN Yahshua.

Yahshua did not pre-exist His birth, since he is a mortal man and not an immortal 'god' or 'angel.'

Yahshua had the same origin as all men who are mortal beings:

For it was fitting that He [Yahweh], for Whom and by Whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to esteem, should make [Yahshua] the pioneer of their redemption perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sets apart and those who are set apart have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim Your name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise You (Hebrews 2:10-12; Psalm 22:22 RSV).

shdemidemi:

I am not here to out-argue(eme) you. I will just put what proves God in three persons right. Like you have rightly quoted Stephen called Christ a servant of God, fine. Lets check this part of the scripture to answer the reason why Christ could be regarded as a servant and not even a son by Stephen.

Philippians 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


please check that without being biased, so we can move on to other quotes.

This is a great point in that many are attempting to make Yahshua out to be "God" when in this verse it makes quite clear that Yahshua "made himself of no reputation."

Scripture clearly teaches that there is only one Mighty One ["God"] and that there is no other beside Him. He even says Himself "I know not any!"

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/761316151/elohim-one-or-more-than-one

I fully agree with you frosbel. I also believe that Yahshua was "a man" and not a "God-man" as many deceptively teach. Scripture clearly teaches that the Messaih had the same origin as all men and mankind most certainly did not pre-exist their birth.