@ Manosteel, he is the end time ANTICHRIST servant, and you gave him the right answer, Nobody should waste his/her time with him,

@ Tudor, nobody is threatening you, its a free world do what you like. According to the LAW OF KARMA which is the ultimate law in the world; WHAT EVER YOU SOW, YOU MUST DEFINATELY REAP,

When someone tells me they want ‘proof’ or ‘evidence’, not the Bible, my response is as follows:

‘You might not believe the Bible but I do. And I believe it gives me the right basis to understand this universe and correctly interpret the facts around me. I’m going to give you some examples of how building my thinking on the Bible explains the world and is not contradicted by science. For instance, the Bible states that God made distinct kinds of animals and plants. Let me show you what happens when I build my thinking on this presupposition. I will illustrate how processes such as natural selection, genetic drift, etc. can be explained and interpreted. You will see how the science of genetics makes sense based upon the Bible.’

One can of course do this with numerous scientific examples, showing how the issue of sin and judgment, for example, is relevant to geology and fossil evidence. And how the Fall of man, with the subsequent Curse on creation, makes sense of the evidence of harmful mutations, violence, and death.

Once I’ve explained some of this in detail, I then continue:
‘Now let me ask you to defend your position concerning these matters. Please show me how your way of thinking, based on your beliefs, makes sense of the same evidence.

In arguing this way, a Christian is:

1. Using biblical presuppositions to build a way of thinking to interpret the evidence.

2. Showing that the Bible and science go hand in hand.

3. Challenging the presuppositions of the other person (many are unaware they have these).
Forcing the debater to logically defend his position consistent with science and his own presuppositions (many will find that they cannot do this).

4. Honouring the Word of God that convicts the soul.

Those of you like Harakiri and Tudor arguing against creation may not even be conscious of their most basic presupposition, one which excludes God a priori, namely naturalism/materialism (everything came from matter, there is no supernatural, no prior creative intelligence).2 The following two real-life examples highlight some problems with that assumption:

1. A young man approached me at a seminar and stated, ‘Well, I still believe in the big bang, and that we arrived here by chance random processes. I don’t believe in God.’ I answered him, ‘Well, then obviously your brain, and your thought processes, are also the product of randomness. So you don’t know whether it evolved the right way, or even what right would mean in that context. Young man, you don’t know if you’re making correct statements or even whether you’re asking me the right questions.’
The young man looked at me and blurted out, ‘What was that book you recommended?’ He finally realized that his belief undercut its own foundations—such ‘reasoning’ destroys the very basis for reason.

2. On another occasion, a man came to me after a seminar and said, ‘Actually, I’m an atheist. Because I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in absolutes, so I recognize that I can’t even be sure of reality.’ I responded, ‘Then how do you know you’re really here making this statement?’ ‘Good point,’ he replied. ‘What point?’ I asked. The man looked at me, smiled, and said, ‘Maybe I should go home.’ I stated, ‘Maybe it won’t be there.’ ‘Good point,’ the man said. ‘What point?’ I replied.
This man certainly got the message. If there is no God, ultimately, philosophically, how can one talk about reality? How can one even rationally believe that there is such a thing as truth, let alone decide what it is?

So Haraki and Tudor, you guys better do a re-think, and let God into your life again,
Salvation is personal and its in ur hands, dnt look for evidences to prove nothing while the facts are everywhere,

Have a blessed day.

Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.

The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.

We all exist in the present—and the facts all exist in the present. When one is trying to understand how the evidence came about (Where did the animals come from? How did the fossil layers form? etc.), what we are actually trying to do is to connect the past to the present.

However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so we could know for sure about past events.

On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present.

Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the evidence, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions. That’s why the argument often turns into something like:

‘Can’t you see what I’m talking about?’

‘No, I can’t. Don’t you see how wrong you are?’

‘No, I’m not wrong. It’s obvious that I’m right.’

‘No, it’s not obvious.’ And so on.

These two people are arguing about the same evidence, but they are looking at the evidence through different glasses.
It’s not until these two people recognize the argument is really about the presuppositions they have to start with, that they will begin to deal with the foundational reasons for their different beliefs. A person will not interpret the evidence differently until they put on a different set of glasses—which means to change one’s presuppositions.

I’ve found that a Christian who understands these things can actually put on the evolutionist’s glasses (without accepting the presuppositions as true) and understand how they look at evidence. However, for a number of reasons, including spiritual ones, a non-Christian usually can’t put on the Christian’s glasses—unless they recognize the presuppositional nature of the battle and are thus beginning to question their own presuppositions.

It is of course sometimes possible that just by presenting ‘evidence’, you can convince a person that a particular scientific argument for creation makes sense ‘on the facts’. But usually, if that person then hears a different interpretation of the same evidence that seems better than yours, that person will swing away from your argument, thinking they have found ‘stronger facts’.

However, if you had helped the person to understand this issue of presuppositions, then they will be better able to recognize this for what it is—a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions—i.e. starting beliefs.

When I was a teacher, I found that whenever I taught the students what I thought were the ‘facts’ for creation, then their other teacher would just re-interpret the facts. The students would then come back to me saying, ‘Well sir, you need to try again.’

However, when I learned to teach my students how we interpret facts, and how interpretations are based on our presuppositions, then when the other teacher tried to reinterpret the facts, the students would challenge the teacher’s basic assumptions. Then it wasn’t the students who came back to me, but the other teacher! This teacher was upset with me because the students wouldn’t accept her interpretation of the evidence and challenged the very basis of her thinking.

What was happening was that I had learned to teach the students how to think rather than just what to think. What a difference that made to my class! I have been overjoyed to find, sometimes decades later, some of those students telling me how they became active, solid Christians as a result.

, AND TO ALL YOU FELLOW BELIEVING CHRISTIANS OUT THERE, DON'T WASTE UR PRECIOUS GOD-GIVEN TIME WITH THESE ATHEISTS (HARAKIRI AND TUDOR) , YOU MUSTN'T ALLOW THEM TO USE THE DEVIL TO CONFUSE YOU, EVEN THE DEVIL KNOWS THE BIBLE MORE, GO AHEAD WITH YOUR FAITH AND AT THE END OF TIME, THE SHAFT SHALL BE SEPARATED FROM THE WHEAT,

THEY'RE USING SCIENCE AND THEIR UNBELIEF TO DECEIVE YOU ALL, FORGETTING THAT THERE'S IS BUT ONE, WHO CREATED SCIENCE, THEY FORGET HOW THEY CAME TO EXISTENCE, I WONDER IF GOD DID NOT BRING THEM TO THIS WORLD, IF THEY WOULD HAVE THE MOUTH TO SAY ALL THESE BLASPHEMY THEY ARE SAYING,

EVEN LOOK AT THE PROFILE PIC OF HARAKIRI, A PURE SIGN OF THE DRAGON, (ANTI-CHRIST), , MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON UR LOST SOULS,

@Harakiri and Tudor,

You guys are something else, you need proof concerning the bible and God? I'm sorry for your lost souls, Plus you and tudor, minus you, God is still God. Take it or leave it.

The end is really near like the bible say in 1Timothy 4:1-2; Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Whether you Harakiri or you Tudor belive it or not, it doesnt change who GOD is, he is still God. You guys should be wondering how you were formed from your mothers womb, no science or watever has proved that, Its only God that knows, So if u dnt believe, and ur waiting for any proof, i pray you wont wake up to see urself in hell one day and say like the rich young fool, HAD I KNOW,

@ harakiri,
I don't need you to believe in God cos i have been reading your comments all through and from the look of thing, its like you've made up ur mind concerning ur "FATE", and I dnt blame u cos every man is responsible for his own actions ."YOUR OWN SALVATION IS PERSONAL"

But one thing I would like to ask you and for you to think about is this;

1). Between when you sleep in the dead of the night and when you wake up, do u know what happens to you?

2). When you sleep, you see yourself in dreams and some of your dreams come to reality right? Have you ever asked yourself, who is that person in my dream that looks like me, and wat is he doing there?

3). Have you ever asked yourself when sleeping who is responsible for, why your body is left behind on the bed and ur other self wondering all over the earth and after wondering, comes back to ur other body in the bed and u wake up?

4). What if, the other body that leaves ur body in the bed dies in it's ventures all over the earth and doesn't come back to the body in your bed? Have you ever wondered what will happen to your body in the bed?

Whether you believe it or not, there's someone, a Spiritual Being up there that gave you that second body that makes u walk and breath and one day, that Being will require it from you and ur other body will go to were it was created from, DUST,

Have a nice day and think about it,

There is another argument which can be made against the eternality of hell. which cannot be applied against the eternality of God the Father, God the Spirit, and Heaven. If one were to take the poisition that hell were to last only a thousand years, to be consistent he would also have to contend that the Father, Spirit and Heaven will last for only a thousand years. That is true for the same word used to describe the duration of Hell's punishment is also used to describe the duration of the Father, Spirit and Heaven.

Finally; The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46).

Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36)

If hell will last only for a 100years, then people will not mind to bear it for 1000years and come out, I'm not a pastor but to an extent i have knowledge of scripture,

Look at these scriptures,;

Hell is eternal. According to Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal". Romans 16:26, speaks of the everlasting God. Hebrews 9:14 refers to the eternal spirit.

There are four expressions in these three verses to be considered. They are "everlasting punishment", "eternal life", everlasting God", and "eternal spirit". The only difference between everlasting and eternal in our language is a difference in spelling. They mean the same thing. The Greek word translated as everlasting or eternal in these three passages is the same. It is "ionious" which means eternal, everlasting, without end, never to cease, or indeterminate as to duration.

[b]Those who feel that eternal punishment is too long, reflect upon every system of justice in the world. How does one determine the enormity of an act? By the time it takes to perform it? or by the act itself? For example, in fifteen seconds, a man could kill a dozen people by throwing a hand grenade into a crowded store. If that were done, should the killer go to prison for only fifteen seconds? Should he be placed in the penitentiary for only sixty seconds? Would the demands of justice be satisfied if he served a jail sentence of two minutes? Oh, no, if he were able to escape execution, he would have to spend the rest of his life behind bars for an act which took only fifteen seconds to perform. The heinousness of evil is seen in the act itself, rather than by the time involved in its perpetration. The most horrible thing one can do is live in rebellion to the will of Almighty God. Those who live five years, five months, or five days in defiance of the Lord, and die in that condition will be punished in hell forever.[/b]

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, hell exists and the Bible says that it is never full. I've heard folks say that hell is not mentioned in the Bible or that hell is just the grave. Well, let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with hell and the lake of fire (at the final judgment, hell, death and those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire):

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), , Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

[b]Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.[/b]

@ Missy B, and all y'all unbelievers, Please read and don't be deceived,

[i][i]"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
[/i][/i][/color]

How many times have I heard someone say, "A loving God wouldn't put His creatures in hell." Well I have news for you, friend, God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (II Peter 3:9). Know ye not that hell was not created for man? Hell was created for the devil and his angels--

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)

[color=#000099]Think about this, God, out of profound love for you--a vile sinner who has transgressed His commandments--let His own beautiful, dear Son be sacrificed for YOUR sins! Jesus wasn't a sinner. He didn't sin one time. He didn't die for Himself. He died for you. To save YOU. That's why He is called the Saviour. Because He SAVES from hell! If you reject His sacrifice and trod it underfoot it should not be too hard for you to understand that the same God who sacrificed His beloved Son will expeditiously cast your rebellious hind parts into hell and the lake of fire. NOTHING unclean will ever enter God's heaven--and all unregenerate people are unclean. I too was once dead in trespasses and sins, but one lovely day I turned my face to Jesus and got washed in the blood. You can too--no matter what you've done.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18[/i]

@ miss Estille; as requested: Alfred Esi, alfred0092002@yahoo.com, 08025112599,