achorladey:



Discussion coming to a halt.....

You have the answer already. Isaiah 53:10 states his offspring. Call it literal or figurative or spiritual.

Not one single child was attributed to Jesus while on earth. Neither was he even married.

Who brought to existence the brothers?

Those 144,000 in the book of revelation your religious organization called Jesus' brothers are they figurative or literal? Who didn't bring them into existence figuratively. Who died figuratively for them. Who didn't empty himself figuratively to live as humans and not ashamed to call them brothers.

He was created just like his brothers yet all other things were created through him or all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Who brought to existence the brothers? The one that apart from him not even one thing came to existence is not ashamed to call them brothers.

This is like trying to say your Dad is your creator because you were made through him.

Instrument is not creator!

Creator is the source ( 1Cor 8:6 The Father, from whom all things came )

Many can act as instrument to bring further life, but none is the Creator

If Jesus wasn't created like the Father, he won't have such description as " firstborn " and " Son " .

achorladey:


From spiritual to figurative offspring.
Isaiah 53:10 his offspring with no quote are his kids.

Those he died for and not ashamed to called brothers are not figurative? Are they?

Those 144,000 in the book of revelation your religious organization called Jesus' brothers are they figurative or literal?
He was created just like his brothers yet all other things were created through him or all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Who brought to existence the brothers?

When you produce the child Jesus has on earth as a Messiah, we will discuss.

That aside , while God used Jesus to accomplish some things. The Fact remain

Angels = Sons of God [the Father]

Adam = Son of God [the Father ]

Jesus = Son of God [ the Father ]

All of them are brothers because they have the same Father. But what united them all is that they proceed as a Creation from the Father. Hence " Sons " , with Jesus reference to as the " Firstborn among many brothers "

Such a description like firstborn or son was never applied to the Father for one reason. He doesn't have a Father , neither proceeding from anyone

achorladey:

Now
Spiritual what first?

Figurative " offspring" . can you Show me Jesus Kids when he was on Earth?

Emusan:


Yes! Holy Spirit knows God's mind.
That makes the Holy spirit to be a person and whoever knows your mind actually knows ALL THINGS.

Jesus as the Word of God and God Almighty is ONE with the Father.

Just as @achorladey piint ed out as quoted in that Rev Jesus has a NAME only Him knows, I know you won't hesitate to say of course the Father will know the name as well.

Neglecting the that fact the scripture was clear as ONLY ONE PERSON KNOWS.

He has a name "WRITTEN " . The writer is excluded. The word " Written" indicated an action of writing.

The same way it says at Rev 2:17 that the person from that congregation who conquers has a name written which only him knows. Once again, excluding the writer.

I need to know : Who gave the Father the permission or right to know the day and hour so we can exclude him?

Secondly, no one knows the Father deeply than the son, Are you saying holy spirit knows the Father much more than the son who doesn't know ?

achorladey:






You are the one saying......




Now....

.

I forgot it is not through Jesus that those he called brothers were created and you are the one differentiating true offspring from fake offspring.



You started from.....



When Isaiah said he has offspring you entered. Offspring in quote despite your religious publications defending why he is called eternal father using that same scripture and others.



Jesus calling humans brothers will indeed be a problem despite your belief that God used him to create humans.

The event of Isaiah 53 applies to Jesus days as Human, he has no literal offspring or children. He died single, The reference was spiritual. That is why the initial commentary was wise enough to use quotes

Romans 8:29 said he is the " Firstborn among many brothers "

The term " Firstborn " and Son of God " were frequently applied to him because he was created just like his brother's, The only person excluded from such terms is the Father , the Uncreated one.

achorladey:

Now that Isaiah didn't put offspring in quote you enter.......
I wonder, they were his imaginary offspring. He is not ashamed to call them brothers.
The same person that is not ashamed to empty his position and die for those he is not ashamed to call brothers.

How can you be ashamed to call fellow persons created BY YOUR FATHER, Brothers ?

The Bible said he is not ashamed to call us brothers because we all have the same Father and Source.

Anyone born by your Father is your brother.

He will never call us brothers if we are his children. Show me anywhere the Father call us brothers ? Never.

achorladey:


Isaiah 53:10 But it was Jehovah’s will to crush him, and he let him become sick. If you will present his life as a guilt offering, He will see his offspring, he will prolong his days, And through him the delight of Jehovah will have success.
Isaiah who penned it down didn't put offspring in quote.

He is not ashamed to call his offspring brothers.

He call them brothers.

He is not ashamed , because he knows he was created like others, he and us , all have ONE SOURCE.


If they were his true offspring, he would have been ashamed to call them brothers.

Nowhere will you see the Father call his creatures brothers. It's never done.

Emusan:


@achorladey has already done justice to that

But I know you people are shameless

No, the writer is not a dummy, he placed " Offspring" in quotes because he knows you can't be a brother with your offspring.

achorladey:


But it was Jehovah’s will to crush him, and he let him become sick. If you will present his life as a guilt offering, He will see his offspring, he will prolong his days, And through him the delight of Jehovah will have success.

Next Isaiah says something startling: “Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick. If you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong his days, and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear.” (Isaiah 53:10, 11) How could Jehovah possibly take delight in seeing this faithful servant crushed? Clearly, Jehovah did not personally inflict suffering upon his dear Son. Jesus’ enemies were fully responsible for what they did to him. But Jehovah permitted them to act cruelly. (John 19:11) For what reason? Surely the God of empathy and tender compassion was pained to see his innocent Son suffer. (Isaiah 63:9; Luke 1:77, 78) Jehovah was certainly not displeased in any way with Jesus. Even so, Jehovah took delight in his Son’s willingness to suffer because of all the blessings that would result from it.

31. (a) In what way did Jehovah set Jesus’ soul as “a guilt offering”? (b) After all the trouble that Jesus experienced as a human, what must be particularly satisfying for him?

31 For one thing, Jehovah set Jesus’ soul as “a guilt offering.” Hence, when Jesus ascended back to heaven, he entered Jehovah’s presence bearing the merit of his sacrificed human life as a guilt offering, and Jehovah was pleased to accept it in behalf of all mankind. (Hebrews 9:24; 10:5-14) By means of his guilt offering, Jesus acquired [b] “offspring.” As “Eternal Father,” he is able to give life​—eternal life—​to those who exercise faith in his shed blood[/b]. (Isaiah 9:6) After all the trouble that Jesus went through as a human soul, how satisfying it must be for him to have the prospect of delivering mankind from sin and death! Of course, it must be even more satisfying for him to know that his integrity provided his heavenly Father with an answer to the taunts of His Adversary, Satan the Devil.​—Proverbs 27:11.


That's your religious publication admittance of Jesus having OFFSPRING and being ETERNAL FATHER.

The writer put Offspring in " quotes" for a reason.

Regarding the same guilt offering

" For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers " Heb 2:11 .

Can you and your offspring Be BROTHERS?

Emusan:


Yes! 1 is true and not only that ALL THE THREE PERSONS OF THE HOLY TRINITY KNOW.

Quote the scripture and not your permutation.

Holy spirit knows God's mind, true or false?

Vs

ONLY THE FATHER

Jesus = ONLY THE FATHER/ONE PERSON know the day and hour

Emusan = You lied, Father , son , holy spirit knows, Three person's know the day and hour. It's not only the Father you liar .

You just make the Lord a Liar, you this shameless trinitarian?

Emusan:


Number 1 fact: Holy Spirit is PERSON....
Number 2 fact: Jesus said ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS THE HOUR
Number 3 fact: Holy spirit knows GOD'S MIND
Number 4 fact: You decided to use the word PERSON for your fraudulent motives.

If 1 is true, Do you agree two persons know the day and hour?

If 1 is False , Do you agree only the Father knows ?

Emusan:


So, you agree that scripture lied for saying Jesus is an ETERNAL FATHER

No wonder he couldn't answer my question

Lying liar.


How can Jesus be ETERNAL FATHER without haven't children?

Because you don't read , Eternal Father not OUR Father

" Government on his shoulder "

He is an appointed representative in Government to act as a Father. Nobody be him own Son or daughter, there's nothing like Jesus Children, what we have is Jesus BROTHERS.

God the Father is called " OUR FATHER" " Father of ALL " . Everybody that proceed from him is called " Sons" both in heaven and earth.

All you need to do is provide where Son was applied to God the Father at any point in history. Doesn't exist, because that title is for created ones

MaxInDHouse:


Hmmmmmmmmmm no wonder Jehovah has never addressed any human as His brother but Jesus said:

“Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my BROTHERS and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” John 20:17

Surely Jesus is one of Jehovah's Witnesses {Revelations 1:5} so he is one of our fellow wordhipers of the same FATHER who is Jehovah our GOD!

Thank you.
God the Father never address anyone as his Brother or himself as a Son of anyone. That's the uncreated one. Jesus is our brother

Emusan:


Shouting Trinity in mud million times won't stop the fact that you haven't proof where Jesus used the word PERSON.

Can you imagine...


I'm here proving the Person hood of the Holy Spirit using the scripture which you haven't countered and you're saying "I'm DENYING the same person hood"

O ma se ooo

Since you are proving the person hood.

@underlined, so once again: How many persons know the day and hour ? 😂

A. One person

B. Two persons.

Emusan:


So Jesus being an ETERNAL Father is useless to you
So why did Jesus was called ETERNAL FATHER?

Can a person who doesn't have son or daughter be called FATHER not to add ETERNAL?

There is no single reference to Jesus sons or daughters. He has none. Everybody has just one Father, the uncreated one, that's never a Son

Emusan:


Why didn't you provide where Jesus used the term PERSON?

Trinity in the mud 😂😂😂😂🤣

So you are denying the person hood of the The Father and Holy spirit now. What a useless doctrine

Emusan:


No! He is Father of the believers.

Gosh.... You don't even know the Fatherhood of God is for believers.

Christ became your BROTHER because He came to provide Salvation to your dying soul and it's also for BELIEVERS.

just give up, you already out of the track.

Son ,brother are all creatures from the ONE Father we all have.

Nobody is ever addressed as Son of Jesus, because he is our brother right from the beginning of time.

Emusan:


Just look at the lying liar mouth.

But the same has been trying to spin it that Father means uncreated.

Do you even know the meaning of ETERNAL?

Provide a single place where the Father of Jesus was ever addressed as " Son of someone" . That's why Jesus said you have ONE FATHER , the heavenly one

Every other Father that might exist are creatures that were once sons of someone .

Sons of Jesus ? Doesn't exist.

We are Jesus Brothers. Cos we are all created

Emusan:


Have proved that times without number.

He is a PERSON that is why He has the ability TO KNOW.

Jesus didn't use PERSON but The Father.

So, you know the reason WHY YOU DUBIOUSLY CHANGE FATHER TO PERSON.

Trinity in the mudddddd
😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Sand2022:


That is poor exegesis.

Jesus can be called Father. Now why he is called eternal Father is debatable. But he is also mighty God, he didn't become mighty God when he came in earth. He has always been such.

The scripture you quoted didn't say that God is a Father because he is uncreated. You assumed that Father of all means that. Someone might also say the same of Isaiah 9:6.

Jesus once called his disciples little children.

Jesus Christ is uncreated and in fact is worshipped. My next article will talk about worship, and subsequent one will go further to prove he is worshipped but at least we can agree that Jesus being praised as a creator at Heb 1:10 is of itself a worship. I wonder how one will worship a creature.

I will rather say that God as the one who beget the Son and not the other way around, can take the title Father to Jesus. Is that the case? The scripture didn't say.

But it is clear you cant prove it anywhere from the scriptures that the title Father means uncreated. So let's not wait our time on this.

This is poor exegesis

Jesus called Eternal Father doesn't mean he isn't created in fact let me shock you, Jesus have no SON.

Father of all was never a Son.

I repeat this again, Jesus is our Brother being a Created being like us.

Emusan:


But HE BECAME FATHER which shows human TERMINOLOGY as CREATED.

so, your argument holds no water.

The fact is, the TERM SON was USED FOR JESUS ON EARTH which was the same TIME THE TERM FATHER came on board.

He became Father when he Created us ALL, including our Brother , Christ. We are all sons with a beginning

kasim155:
Na wa, Naija too dey depot people back to their country. Anyway nice one sha.

😂😂😂😂

MaxInDHouse:


I thought they said Holy Spirit is a person so how come two persons knows something yet Jesus said ONLY the father?

😂😂😂😂

Emusan:


Yes!



The Holy Spirit knows the very MIND OF GOD.

TRUE OR FALSE?

Shey holy spirit no be person again ni?

Why e hard you to say TWO persons Know

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Sand2022:

There is of course another option that can be explored even if we exclude the issue of creation about Jesus. As to the fact that he is not created, that is not negotiable. The scripture can't be understood underwise.

The Son is not said to be created, but Begotten. Man begets man. So God beget Jesus, who is of His nature. Now God doesn't give birth nor get pregnant. And the Sons begetal is from eternity. Prov 8.

Many have got different theories about this.

However, some early church fathers have theorized that Jesus was generated from the father through an eternal generation. You will have to notice that they will always add the word "eternal" to the generation. Why? Because there is no other way to say it without seeing some aspect of scriptures fight against you.

Some say the Father divided himself through His Word (Logos). I don't even understand that concept.

My own assumption is that the Father divided himself and called the other Facsimile Son. Perhaps since He initiated the splitting, it explains why He often receives praise most of the times for something done, while the Son shares in it. It may also explain why He took the function of Father and gave the Son to His facsimile. (I will explain the scriptural proof of this Facsimile word choice in my next article)

Perhaps that is why He occupies the role of Head and His Son that of submission.

Others like Prof Wayne Grudem, and Wares have stated that God has always existed that way with these functions in place from eternity.

All these are suppositions, the bible didn't go into such details. What we can be sure is that the Son has been there from eternity past. He was not created.

Everybody called " Son " has a beginning. Son proceed from a Father. Jesus is created.

Emusan:


At Jesus' mission on Earth

Now you where your argument fall flat.

[quotr]But nobody called God the Father a son at any point in history, Because he is uncreated. Everyone else called " Son " had a beginning. The exact same word was applied to every creature.

The term TERM FATHER is found used for HUMAN which means HEAD and A created BEING

That God takes the TITLE FATHER is for a purpose the same is for SON not that He was created.

Talk another thing, you list this one.

😂😂😂 Every Human called Father, was once a Son, true or false ?

But the heavenly Father, show me where he was ever called " Son" !!!

Sand2022:


The bible does not provide any direct answer to that question. If we are to assume that it is so because He has no beginning, well, neither is the Son. (John 1:3; Micah 5, Prov . That is why Fatherhood and Sonship of God the Father and Son are functions. We can't go beyond the scriptures.

Let's get to your interest, cos I don't understand.

Are you of the opinion that why God is called the Father is because he has no beginning? Is that your proof of His uncreated state?

If so, which scripture or lexicon are you relying on?

Eph 4:6 is my proof. " Father of ALL"

Uncreated, Nobody's Son.

But Jesus is a Son like everyone else, he is called our Brother. We are all created

Emusan:


The FATHER knows

" ONLY " The Father knows 😂😂

The Holy Spirit knows God's mind

You're the one USING PERSON for your dubious reason

Don't be ashamed, both are two persons . Tell us how many Knows 😂😂😂😂

Emusan:


No! Justified that you don't understand what Jesus was saying.

You who understands , only one person know the day and hour? 😂😂😂😂

Emusan:

To KNOW means the being is a PERSON

Proof me wrong on that first
because Jesus was addressing the limitation of creatures to phantom the MIND OF GOD.
Since Holy Spirit KNOWS the very MIND of God that's a very easy thing to understand.

Justification that JESUS LIED ?

Emusan:


OLODO...
It was given to him ON EARTH for His mission

Stop going in circle.

Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

At what point did God became Father of all?

Before Jesus came to earth or After .

This shows how empty you are in scriptural knowledge and you have hooked yourself with this.

Father itself is TITLE, which means the Title Father is what God added at a point not that God has ALWAYS BEEN A FATHER.

Psalm 2:7 that the New Testament writers paraphrase or quoted read:- The king proclaims the Lord’s decree: “The Lord said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father."

Which means there was a time God was not a Father too.

But nobody called God the Father a son at any point in history, Because he is uncreated. Everyone else called " Son " had a beginning. The exact same word was applied to every creature.

Emusan:

The first point here is that TO KNOW shows the being is a PEESON.
Then, the main point is that for Holy Spirit to know Gods mind means He is FULLY CONSCIOUS and Jesus point was about creature limitations mind.
No! Jesus is not a liar like those who lied against God and His word.

The fact that you haven't proof the scripture wrong that Holy spirit is a PERSON is a testament to this.

Understand Jesus point first.

If to know means it's a Person, how come ONLY ONE PERSON KNOWS instead of Two Person?