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Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:22pm On Apr 28, 2022 |
OkCornel:How would you know my own understanding is of private interpretation when I have barely given it? At what point in our discussions have I proven myself to not be able to back up anything I have said? Lol. What even makes you think for e.g that the screenshot you have is something I agree with? Is it not already clear that I don't parrot the popular stuff? Will you agree for e.g that you never knew that the wrath of God was and the day of Christ were not the same because others you may have conversed with thought they were? My dear, I just don't want to veer off into the prophetic significance of the 7 churches listed. That you don't agree about their prophetic significance is of little to no import. I am yet to see you quote the verses that show for e.g that God is the restrainer etc even when I have mentioned in some instances 4 verses to validate any claims I have made. lol |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:14pm On Apr 28, 2022 |
OkCornel:It seems every thing I have shown you is flying over you. And I told you that I am avoiding long posts. So a little refresher: You once quoted 1 Peter 2 v 9 to show that the church was a holy nation, God's people, peculiar, elect etc. Yes, for the zillionth time in the church age you are right. However that church age will come to an end. You cannot study or use a verse out of context. It will confuse your overarching knowledge of the body of truth. Peter knew he was in the church age because as a Jew he also knew about Exodus 19 v 5-6 where those very same words were said about the Jews. Remember I told you that Jesus told the Jews in Matthew 21 v 43 that the kingdom was going to be taken from them and given to another nation. For the kingdom to be taken from them, it means they had the kingdom to begin with. Jesus told the woman at the well that salvation was of the Jews. Salvation came from them. They had the covenant. They were God's people. Now take a look at Daniel 9 v 20, 24. I am using my phone so I cannot quote the verses for you but Daniel says he is referring to his people - Israel. Take note of the prophecies being given. Daniel says those prophecies are about his people. Now take a good look at Daniel 12 v 1. It shows that Michael is fighting for Daniel's people during the middle of the tribulation or the beginning of the great tribulation. Daniel says Michael is the angel over his people Israel. Do you see this verse parallels with Revelation 12 v 6-7? It is a perfect match. The emphasis here is Daniel's people, Jews. Now let us examine Revelation 19 again to see the reference. The messenger tells John "I am of your brethren" but not just brethren because of Jewish heritage, but one that has the record of Jesus Christ. In other words, I am like you, a Jew who believes in Jesus Christ. That does not mean that gentiles are not part of the brethren like you think I am trying to say. But the time of that statement is key! It is being said at the point just before Jesus comes back to the earth which means that is not the church age. Don't take my word for it. Here is more. The same word used for brethren in the KJV is used as is in Revelation 22 v 9. (You might see why I warned you about the NIV). John again wanted to worship an "angel" but the angel told him, I am a fellow servant, and one of your brothers the prophets. In this context, will you generically use the same brothers and sisters translation? You simply cannot. Who are John’s brethren that are prophets? Jews. Now study Matthew 22 v 1-14. Is that not a parabolic prophecy about the marriage supper of the lamb? In that context who are the servants? Verse 5 says some of them were killed. Can you see why that messenger called himself a fellow servant? Does that verse 5 not flow perfectly with Matthew 23 v 34-39? If that is the case will that not be more specifically Jews? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:23pm On Apr 28, 2022 |
OkCornel:I am surprised that many don't know this and I probably will do a more comprehensive teaching on this but it will be a distraction for now. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 6:30pm On Apr 27, 2022 |
KaLuCh:of course the day of the Lord/Christ etc is a period not a 24 hour day. 2 Peter 3 let's us know even the melting and destruction of this world is part of that day. The wrath of God however is the tribulation which starts immediately after the rapture till the end of the tribulation. Joel 2 v 31 says so. It depends on who your man of God is but I have a feeling you are right! |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 6:28pm On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:Because John's brothers and sisters are the Jews as well just like the "Angel" that was talking to John. Only that at the time of the tribulation many of John's brothers will now have believed in Jesus. Why? Because the rapture that they claimed was a hoax had happened and it woke alot of people up. I pity those who don't believe in the rapture. Paul said Enoch was raptured by faith. Elijah told Elisha "if you see me when I am taken..." which means he knew he would be raptured as well. You have to believe in the rapture to qualify for it. You cannot disbelieve it and still be raptured. I weep for some Christians. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 6:25pm On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:Revelation had a lot of parenthetical chapters but it will bog me down to show you many instances where this was alluded to. For e.g in Revelation 12 v 5 I told you the man child (Jesus and his body) are taken away from the world to heaven. V 12 says those in heaven should rejoice while those still left on earth should be in woe because the devil will begin to massacre them like never before. If the people who were "caught up" in verse 5 only went there by dying then there is nothing to celebrate as the ones on earth will still be persecuted and killed by the devil/antichrist for refusing his mark and they'll still be in heaven right? So what is the big deal? The big deal is, the verse 5 people went to heaven like Enoch and Elijah. That is what Jesus meant by saying some people will be counted WORTHY to escape the wrath of the tribulation. So that proves some people left before the tribulation and not by dying or being killed. Next, take note that in the marriage supper of the lamb in Revelation 19, the church which is part of the bride is there already. Do you agree? Then later in that chapter Jesus prepares to come back down for his second coming. What does that tell you? That the church had to have been raptured before Jesus's second coming. Simple. If the question becomes pre tribulation or pre great tribulation (mid tribulation) I'll have to share another secret that many do not know. But that is for later. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 6:07pm On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:I don't like making long posts as I feel the essence is lost in many words. I already told you that each of the 7 churches also prophetically represent 7 dispensations or generations of the church age. So that Smyrna church is another generation entirely. I cannot say more than that now as I don't want to veer off. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 6:05pm On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel: Dear, an analogical teaching is not equivalent to a categorical teaching. The church is the BODY of Christ. Period. The church is NOT the bride of christ but is only a part of that bride. The OT saints and tribulation saints are part of the bride as well. There is no need for the back and forth as I can easily explain the verses of Paul you quoted above. Let us just follow exactly what the Bible says. Revelation 21:9-10 John is shown the wife of Jesus, the lamb's bride. It was the NEW JERUSALEM. It is not a new teaching. Isaiah prophesied it in Isaiah 62 v 4. Paul in Galatians 4 v 26 told us that the Jerusalem from above is EVERYONE'S mother. Everyone being jews and gentiles from the OT into the NT. I am really surprised at how badly you are struggling with basic truths that I feel the need to make longer posts. Church means ekklesia in Greek. A called-out assembly; a special section from the rest hence why they are called an ELECT. God has always had a Church across dispensations. In the OT the Jews were his Church. That is what Acts 7 v 38 clearly shows. That is why all the assignment about restraining evil was delegated to the Jews then to pray and salvation belonged to them. But that was just a shadow. GOD'S ideal Church was to initiated by his son. Jesus came to establish it but the Jews would have nothing of it (Matthew 21 v 43) so Jesus took it to the gentile nation instead. Study Romans 9 especially verse 25. That is why the body of christ AKA present day church today is the restrainer of evil etc. When that church age ends God will go back to the Jews like Romans 9 and Romans 11 explicate. They will become the "church" again. The only issue is, they will have to pass through God's wrath AKA Jacob's trouble/great tribulation while at it. Why do you think Jesus wept over Jerusalem in Matthew 23 v 37-39 (which incidentally led him to prophesy about the temple in Matthew 24 v 1)? Because the predominant sufferers during the tribulation will be the Jews and Jesus was also telling he planned to gather them into safety but they won't listen now their land is left to them DESOLATE and before they see him again they will now have to believe in him (which is what they will do courtesy of the 144k Jewish preachers and the 2 witnesses preaching to them during the tribulation period). |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 5:45pm On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:Can you provide verses to back this up? Let me show you verses proving this is false. Revelation 12 v 12; Revelation 13 v 7; even the 2 prophets sent by God during the great tribulation were killed with all the power they had (Revelation 11 v 10) the false Prophet will cause virtually anyone who refuses to bow to the antichrist to be killed Revelation 13 v 12-15 like are you for real? Did Revelation 6 v 10 not tell you that the people beheaded during that time were crying in heaven for God to avenge them? If they did not face the wrath why were they killed by an antichrist? Matthew 24 v 22 tells you that God had to reduce the great tribulation from 7 years to only 3.5 years or else NO FLESH would have been spared. Do you know what that means? Revelation 3 v 10 tells you it is for the whole world. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 5:26pm On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:Come on the strawman arguments are getting tedious now. Is the old testament not a shadow of the new? Did Jesus die in a Whale's belly like Jonah did even though Jesus compared his death and resurrection to being similar to Jonah and the Whale? If you are not trying to be facetious you'd see that Jesus was simply showing he would be buried for 3 days and 3 nights like Jonah. I have shown you copiously how Noah and Lot relate. Easy. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 5:20pm On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:Hahahaha. I like you alot it has to be said but you don't understand the full story. Jews always thought they will preach the gospel to other Jews around the world. That was their interpretation of those words. Study Matthew 10 v 5. That is why after Peter preached to Cornelius, James and the rest tackled him initially and only backed off when he told them the holy spirit bade him to go and how that the spirit was poured upon gentiles like over the Jews. It was at that point that James had an "aha" moment and went back to reinterpret an OT scripture lol Acts 11. Now read Matthew 24 v 1-3 Jesus had made a statement concerning the very well-known Jewish temple that took 49 years to build and said not even a stone will be left when that temple is destroyed. The disciples get shocked so they ask 3 Jewish questions. 1. When shall this thing be? 2. What is the sign of your coming? 3. What is the sign of the end of the age? Then Jesus answers their questions. So as you can see he did not talk about the rapture explicitly as it were because he had already told them he had a lot to say but that they would not understand it. That is why Paul called the rapture a mystery. Many of the early believers did not know about it nor understand it. That is why I told you Jesus told them about the rapture in codes. He said pray to be counted worthy to escape the wrath. He said a sign of his coming will be like Noah and Lot. These facts are easy to see man. So easy. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 12:53am On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel: The bride of christ is a CITY. The church is NOT the bride of christ. Because there was a church in the OT. Acts 7:38. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 12:49am On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:You simply have to answer my question. Did the angel not tell Lot that the destruction of Sodom will not begin until Lot was out of there? Just answer. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 12:48am On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:My dear, did the flood or brimstone occur until Noah and Lot where safely removed from the scene? The only wrath the Bible accounts for is the WRATH OF GOD THE FATHER. The day of the Lord like I have shown begins at the second coming. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 12:46am On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:Just be calming down brother. Your understanding of these books are really not at the level you think. Revelation 19 v 10 is a Jewish prophet whose new assignment is to deliver messages. If I was to guess, I'd say that was Daniel. That is not an "angel" like we have those spirit beings like Michael and Gabriel. This particular angel is a messenger who was once a human being. There is no where "angels" refer to humans as brothers or fellow servants. Go back and study the verses well. I can show you more proofs as to why that is not the angel you think it is. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 12:41am On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:You are confusing yourself and the issue is you are not answering questions nor are you just simply interpreting the verses as written. Every single person in this world during the tribulation will face the wrath of God. (All that talk about the day of the lord has been put to bed). I told you the wrath is the tribulation. For 3.5 years they'll be overwhelmed but the antichrist at the time is pretending to be a man of peace. Then he will become a tyrant midway into the 7 years (3.5 years) because the devil controlling him will let him know they don't have much time because of what happened in the heavenlies. Satan is booted from that realm so he makes the antichrist focus his attention on the Jews. That is when he matches towards Jerusalem, commits the abomination which leads to desolstion and gets his gentile army to behead any jew they see etc. The jews start fleeing to the Jordanian mountains where God has prepared for some of them who can make it to get supernatural help. Arch Angel Micheal is the angel over Israel. That is what Revelation 12 v 7 was referring to. Michael fights for Israel. So compare scriptures and you'd see that Jesus said when they see the abominable act by the antichrist, the jews around Judea should start running towards Jordan. That is what it is. I would put Bible references but I expect you to know where they are. That is why I have told you repeatedly that the time of JACOB'S trouble is called that because JACOB is ISRAEL. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 12:31am On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:I completely get where you are coming from but prophecy is not for only future events. Prophecy talks about the past, present and future as well. That is prophecy 101. Second, when studying Bible prophecy you need to be able to account for every aspect of it or else you will most likely be misunderstanding it. Remember that Jews till date are still expecting a messiah to come for the first time even though a lot of prophecies were given. How did they miss it? Because a lot of Bible prophecies are double referenced. Now answer one question, I can show you more. What tribulation was going to come over the whole world at that time? Revelation 3 v 10. Thanks. Your answer will help you understand prophecies. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 12:27am On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:Destruction of the temple. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 12:27am On Apr 27, 2022 |
OkCornel:He was talking to Jewish disciples who did not even know at the time that Gentiles were going to be part of the church. I already preempted you by reminding you that the church age started after this. Also, read the questions Jesus was asked from Matthew 24 v 1. He was answering Jewish people about the future of the Jews. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:55pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: I already answered the question. I just added the FYI in a second post because you said the disciples believed in him at the time of speaking. Yes but that was not the church age since the church started after the resurrection. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:53pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: Double reference. Matthew doesn't provide a chronology. He just states everything Jesus stated. Luke is more comprehensive because he had consulted all the books prior and was able to provide a chronology. I gave you solid proof about that. Great tribulation is futuristic. It is proof that part of what Matthew presents is Double referenced prophecy. That is a prophecy that refers to more than 1 event. It is nuanced words that help us divide properly. The destruction of the temple was in 70AD but there is going to be another futuristic destruction by the newer temple that will occur during the 2nd 3.5 years. Simple. That 2nd 3.5 years is what is called the GREAT tribulation. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:44pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: The church age commenced after the resurrection of Jesus FYI. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:43pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: Please read slowly. Noah preached to people who did not listen. They went on eating, drinking etc. Then the day came. Noah was safely in the ark and the flood killed every one else that was not in the ark. Jesus said his coming will be similar. People will not believe in it and think life will continue as is. But they will be surprised to experience the worst things ever. I told you that just like in Noah's time, the righteous people will be safe in a place that the worst things coming won't get to them. Is that simple enough? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:29pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: That is my point exactly. That words like God's elect, saints, holy people is for the church today because the Jews lost out (Matthew 21:43). They used to be it before but they rejected Jesus and lost it. By the time the church age ends God will focus on them again. That is why John could not call those people in Revelation 13 the church. Is that hard to understand? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:27pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: This is another example of a double reference. Study Luke 21 to get the actual chronology. Luke says so in verse 12. See verse 20-27. Take note of verse 24 which he connects to events preceding the 2nd coming of Jesus. Jesus did not come again 70AD did he? Now go to Revelation 11 vs 2. Remember this is futuristic yet you see a new temple and a Jerusalem that is going to be treaded upon for 42 months (3.5 years) that matches perfectly with what Jesus said. I can show you at least 3 more double references from the OT that people felt was only literal till Jesus came to show that some of it was yet to be fulfilled. The desecration of the temple by before Jesus was born on earth is another example. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:14pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: The "they" that were eating and drinking are the group from which people were taken away. Is that too hard or the 'they' was not Jesus's words? Lol |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:12pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: So that is how double references work. A prophecy can be declared about an event or a person in the literal sense and then also refer to a futuristic event. That is why a Bible student has to be careful in studying prophecies. Or else, tell us about the tribulation that was to take over the whole world? As for keeping the commandments of God and testimony of Jesus. I already told you, this is no different than how you tried to define "elect". I told you during the church age that definition holds true for the definition of the church but the rapture will end that church age. The people at the time who will now believe in God's word and in Jesus Christ were simply referred to as saints or God's holy people. Both words that were used to define Jews from the OT already before the church age. How did I prove it to you? Jesus told the church that we would have authority over ALL the powers of the devil himself but the saints in Revelation 13 v 7-8 the devil not only has power over them but will overcome them. You will have the most difficult time in the word trying to reconcile the 2. Except that the saints in the tribulation are not the church. I showed you more references. Paul says Jesus washed the church himself and gave us robes of righteousness however John says those tribulation saints did it by themselves. Can you reconcile it? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:53pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: Hope you know this verse is not saying Noah did not know what would happen? It is the people who did not listen to Noah who did not know. They were the ones left behind to perish. FYI |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:50pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: Stop this strawman type argument please. The flood did not take people away. They died. They perished. Noah and his family were lifted into safety courtesy of being in the ark. That is besides the point even. The flood did not start until Noah and his family were safely tucked into the ark. Noah had to be removed from the scene before the judgment could begin. Jesus said the period before his coming will be the same. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:47pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: By the way, what pronoun will be apposite for the church? Will the body have a different pronoun than the head? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:46pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel:I can answer your question. I just want you to know that is not the rapture. That is all. The people being taken are Jews when the antichrist and his army will match towards Jerusalem to tread upon it. That is why Jesus said those in that area should flee the very moment they see the antichrist desecrate the temple. They should also pray that it is not winter because it will make running away difficult |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:41pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: How about you show anywhere he mentioned the restrainer to be God? I have mentioned 2 verses to that effect and I have more even from Paul but you have made a claim and the burden is on you to prove it. Because I am a good sport, Ephesians 6:11-16 is another place Paul shows who is delegated to restrain evil and the wicked one. Now let us see you do same in the church age. Thanks |
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