qstar:

Oh really, you encountered him? was he Caucasian, Mongolian or Ethiopian?

did he look anything like the girl's painting that was posted by braveguy is another question i will like him to answer. . . .

italo:

You don't have a creed. You can't have a creed.

You just claim nonsense you can't defend...and refute what you don't know or understand.

atheism is confusion.

Which nonsense? that your god is nothing but a a man made idea just like all the other gods out there or that your religion is nothing but ancient fiction and mythology just like all the other religions out there?. . .Which of them haven't I defended?. . .

italo:


I see!

It only becomes rational when the entire universe pops out on its own...out of nothing. And somehow, that thoughtless and random process miraculously created logic and reason...

...yet 'miracles are "illogical."

grin grin

The confusion of Atheism!

*edited. So what do you believe the universe popped out from?

God?

And which atheist code tells you that atheist believe or claim that randomness is responsible for the universe?. . .Show me that atheist creed. . .

italo:

In the piece I posted, Dr Theillier talks about "miracles" occurring in Lourdes.

Miracles that happens when most of the people there were already on medication, right?. . .Well done. . .

italo:

It is good to see that you accept the words of Dr Patrick Theillier.

Let us read more from him:


Doctor Patrick Theillier, who retired from leadership of the bureau last year, stated this in an interview with France Catholique.

The cure, he explained, "might not be as spectacular as to be considered a miracle."

However, the physician added, it can affect "in a profound and lasting way the person who experiences it, in all his being, body, soul and spirit."

Doctor Theillier affirmed that "these cures are truly innumerable."

The bureau is a medical organization run by doctors that operates within the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes, which, among other things, is responsible for the medical investigation of cures associated with the shrine.

The doctor noted that there are, of course, miraculous cures as well in Lourdes, and 67 have been officially recognized as such.

He affirmed that these miracles are sometimes "necessary," such as at the beginning of the Church. "For faith to increase, it must be supported by miracles," Doctor Theillier said.

Moral sufferings

Yet today, he continued, perhaps more than a century ago, we have a need "to be relieved from moral sufferings and the wounds of life, of a psychological-spiritual order, which goes beyond medicine."

"Here is where Lourdes responds to a very present need, which undoubtedly corresponds more to its original message," the physician stated.

He asserted that these types of "miracles" are "much greater" than the bodily cures, as souls are "regenerated." These miracles, he said, can take place if you desire them, hope with faith, and pray to God.

"Extraordinary physical cures have become rare," Doctor Theillier observed, given that "God acts in the first place through human mediation, through medicine and doctors."

This year, Lourdes will be the site of the international congress for the World Federation for the Catholic Medical Associations. The theme for this May 6-7 event will be "Medicine and Faith."

Doctor Theillier issued an invitation for all doctors worldwide to go to Lourdes on this occasion in order to network with colleagues, hear addresses on the application of faith to medicine, and make a pilgrimage as an "occasion to experience the cure that we all need."

"My hope at this time is that numerous Catholic doctors who suffer much at present because of their faith […] will come to find by Our Lady's side consolation and cure," he said.

He invited all Catholics, "Speak with your doctor!"

The physician concluded, "As those who have come to previous congresses have shown, the doctors who attend will be able to experience God's mercy in this place of graces."
http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/doctor-says-many-are-cured-in-lourdes

Miracles happen in Lourdes!

I know that will drive you crazy and you'll start saying nonsense again.

Did I read the same article as you?. . .the piece you posted actually debunks all the claims you have been making. . . .From what you posted. . .

"Doctor Patrick Theillier, who retired from leadership of the bureau last year, stated this in an interview with France Catholique.

The cure, he explained, "might not be as spectacular as to be considered a miracle."

I gave you an example from the economist article which says that most of the people there were already taken medication so its hard to claim that there cures were miraculous. . .No clear cut case of any miracle there. . .

Funny. . Even his Christian brothers are seeing through his shenanigans. . .

BraveGuy: @ TheBigUrban2
@ mazaje
@ mazaje1

I challenged you guys to the video of Isaac Newton private research discoveries; You are yet to report back if Isaac Newton was deluded and crazy, too. Was he?

If you forgot, here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7xTqx7tv_w

Happy Viewing

Issac newton said the world will end in the year 2060, eh?. . .You are deluded. . . .from a white girl's painting of a white man as god, to Issac newton saying that the world will end in 2060. . .brother go and sleep. . .

BraveGuy:

EVERYTHING!

The elusive particle is the SPOKEN WORD of God, which contains the energy that holds/supports/glues ALL things to be held together. I am happy that you will take the time to listen to some of the lectures of Dr Lipton. Afterwards, I will explain to you that all he was trying to explain was already in the Bible.

You are deluded and crazy. . .The spoken word is the word of god because you foolishly said so?. . .

Weah96:

I studied biology at the graduate and undergraduate levels at Georgia State and Clayton State. I completed both programs. What in the world are you talking about?

I TIRE!!!. .

Weah96: I remember discussing the evidence of divine authorship of the bible with a Christian right here on this site. I can't recall his handle, but he was very forthright and honest. He defended his beliefs about Jesus, by admitting that it was based on faith and corroborated by his experience only. He then astonished me by acknowledging that he understood the evidence required to link the bible with Yahweh, and that such evidence was unavailable. I couldn't help but respect the guy. He proved his faith by his honesty. The apologists I've encountered since then have turned out to be liars first and Christians second.

See delusion. . .

BraveGuy:
Hebrews 1:3,
"Who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

What has this got to do with scientist at CERN?

[quote author=BraveGuy]

You're just churning out nonsense without thinking!


How did you think paramedics came about the "Kiss of Life"?

Go and read more

[/quote

Kiss of life?. . Do you have a video evidence to show that the jewish god gave life to any man?. . .

BraveGuy:

God back to what the definition of who God is, then come back..... Let me point you in the right direction, before you make a fool of yourself again.... God breathed into his nostrils and he became a living soul..... Living God breathed into a lifeless body.....

You have a video evidence for this or are you just regurgitating ancient hebrew mythology and fiction?. . .

BraveGuy: "When atheism is stripped of pompous proclamations and arrogant allegations, its naked soul is seen for what it really is: weak, illogical, unscientific, and worthless. Atheists blindly believe that, for example, life came from non-life. Rather than accept what scientific experimentation has repeatedly concluded over the past 200 years (that in nature life comes only from life and that of its own kind), atheists remain committed to a disproven theory. Man has never witnessed mindlessness bring forth intelligence. He’s never seen something come from nothing." - Eric Lyons

Yet you believe your god created everything from nothing, eh?. . .

Weah96:

What he doesn't realize is that every argument he makes is simply a regurgitation of debunked ones. There is nothing new as far as the bible is concerned. The bible is a book of wrong prophecies. If Judaism could be uncoupled from Jewish nationalism and tradition, all the Jews would be atheists.

The problem is that Jews do not read the bible like Christians, if you notice he lifts his nonsense from christian apologist sites and not Jewish sites because the Jews for some reason are very honest, Rabbis will clearly tell you that Moses did nt write any pat of the books attributed to him because the standard biblical style of writing was not invented during the time of Moses, they will tell you that tradition is what ascribed the authorship to Moses, that;s just one aspect, Jews do not agree to most of the interpretations Christians give to the biblical stories, Jews see the adam and eve story as the age of awareness while christians see it as the fall of man etc. . .The jews will never tell you that Yahweh is all loving or all god, they will Just tell you that yahweh is a god of justice, christians ascribe various silly attributes to their god that leaves them lying all the time when they try to explain away all the contradictory attributes they assign to their god. . .The god of the jews is not the same as that of the christians. . .

Weah96:

And even if the bible and Job were the first, how does that prove that it is the word of an omnipotent deity? The square root of 2, for example, goes to infinity. Yahweh could have provided Job with the one billionth digit, or the 2 trillionth digit. Computers today could verify the data, and we would have a real puzzle on our hands. Instead, Job is talking about circles over deeps and other gibberish.

He goes to apologist sites that make things up and claim the bible says this or that, when shown clear scientific errors in the bible they same people will tell you that the bible is not a science text book . . .Funny people. . .I clearly showed him where the bible made wrong prophecies and he came up with answers like "ohh the place the bible mentioned is not the one in this earth but a supernatural one and the prophecy will happen in heaven". . .Pleas how deluded can one be?. . .

BraveGuy:
Job 36:26 Truly, God is great, greater than all our knowledge; the number of his years may not be searched out.
Job 36:27 For he takes up the drops from the sea; he sends them through his mist as rain,
Job 36:28 Flowing down from the sky, and dropping on the peoples.
Otherwise, please describe what the Water Cycle is, AVOIDING any similarity from the above description that was written some 3000 years ago.

Takes drops of water from the sea and sends them as rain isn't a complete picture of the water cycle, it is actually just one part of it. . .here is a complete picture. . .The water doesn't come from the sea alone. . .

BraveGuy:

You are the one talking thrash, because you can't backup you so-called "ancients" with when they claimed what and at where by whom?

I have shown you already, list one science book that says Job was the first to write that the earth was a sphere, list one science book that says that the bible was the first to say that the earth hangs on nothing. . .List one science book that gives the bible credit for being the first to make any scientific discovery. . .You are just ridiculous. . .

BraveGuy: The Hydrologic Water Cycle

Revealed in the Bible: Job 36:27-28 (some 2500 years ago)

The water cycle was not fully understood until about 30 B.C. by a Roman engineer named Marcus Vitruvius. Yet every aspect of the water cycle was fully revealed to mankind in 1600 B.C.! The Bible's description is in perfect harmony with modern science. Eccl 1:6-7; 11:3; Job 26:8; Amos 9:6.

Vitruvius was 1600 years too late!

The bible did not mention water cycle anywhere stop lying. . .

BraveGuy:

I just explained that at the time of the writing, there was no Hebrew word for "Sphere" or "globe", I checked my Strong's Concordance for the root word of the "Circle".

Another thing you fail to understand is that just because someone has a label of Christian or Reverend does not mean that he is a true believer of God and the Bible. Have you never heard of a "Bishop" who says he does not believe in the existence of God, or the Virgin Birth?

It was H.G. Wells who wrote, "Satan delights in statistics and quoting scriptures, too.

See: http://www.whale.to/c/bishops.html

The earth is not a circle, so the bible got it wrong. . .

Weah96: I make two points. One, the bible doesn't state the correct geometric shape of the earth.
Second point: even if it does, it wouldn't mean that an invisible entity called Yahweh could have been the ONLY source behind the information. Other humans figured the sh.it out using shadows and sticks. This evidence is inadmissible as far as divine origination is concerned.

He keeps talking thrash, the ancients knew the earth was round because they could see the shadow of the earth on the moon during a solar eclipse. He keeps saying the bible predicts stuffs when most of the bible was written after the events had already happened, many false prophecies abound in the bible, i listed some for him to lie and say that "ahh, the place is not really a physical place, its a place that is spiritual" . . .or "ahh its an allegory" or "ahh its going to happen in the future". . .The guy is clearly deluded and will lie to himself jst because he wants to keep believing in ancient fiction and mythology. . .

mmsen:

Did these people discount the other possible, more likely factors?

Did they turn their backs on modern medicine entirely? Would any rational person do that?

P. S.
I don't know what an olodo is. Please use English or Latin, the language of your overlords.

The article my economist magazine said most of them were already on medication even when at Lourdes. . .So I wonder why he keeps talking about a miracle. . .

BraveGuy:

Perhaps, you are just dancing around with semantics. Those Books were not classified as Genesis, Exodus, etc., in his lifetime, neither the Book of Joshua, not even the Gospels. Those people just wrote for others to read the intentions of God and the various aspects. They were not writing with the expectation of churning out Bestsellers. Please, add a little common sense to these things. They didn't the chapters and verses either.

You are the one that is supposed to use common sense, I have told you that Rabbinical TRADITION is what gave authorship to those books. . .Most of the authors of the books of the bible remain unknown. . .No body knows who wrote most of the books of the bible. . .The book of genesis alone has many authors. . .You can not tell me Moses wrote a book when the writing style used in such book were not in use during his life time. . .No bible scholar accepts this only deluded people like you that are blind to reason and open only to indoctrination. . . .I ask again, what do you know about the different writing styles that are present inside the bible?. . .Do you know in any of the languages written in the bible?. . .You don't even know what come is in any of the languages used yet you are here blabbing. . .

italo:

There's proof.

You just prefer to die in ignorance...than research the truth.

Lourdes Medical Bureau is looking for the most Atheist of scientists.

Have you made any effort?

The tilma has been found to have human properties by Atheist opthalmologists.

You...you're just a loud-mouthed olodo behind a keyboard.

Its a ruse cos the doctors are running away from Lourdes. . .

Now, Dr. Patrick Theiller, the secretary of the International Medical Committee of Lourdes, has announced that the panel will no longer be in the “miracle” business. “It’s a sort of rebellion, if you will, against laws that don’t concern us—and shouldn’t,” Theiller told the Associated Press’ Jamey Keaten (for an article published December 3, 2008). He added, “The medical corps must be independent of the ecclesiastic power.” The bishop of the local diocese did acknowledge: “It seems ‘miracle’ may not be the right word to use anymore. It’s no longer a black-and-white question.”

Now, appropriately, the church will be left to decide on so-called miracles; the panel will only indicate whether cases are “remarkable.” And remarkable healings can happen to anyone, independent of religious shrines and supposedly magical water. The $400 million that enrich Lourdes annually could be better spent on medical science than on superstitious beliefs from an earlier time.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/lourdes_medical_bureau_rebels/

italo:

The article corroborates my points.

That no miracle is approved without being rigorously scrutinized by scientists and declared to have defied scientific explanation by them.

Nothing I said is misleading or false.

It's just driving the devil in you crazy that there's hard evidence for miracles.

Hard evidence for Miracles you said. . .More from the article. .

" Of course, better tools also help to rule out one of the biggest problems in determining whether a cure surpasses medical expectation: misdiagnosis. A sudden cure from a malignant tumour might seem less miraculous if it turns out to be an abscess instead. New radiological instruments, such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), are particularly welcome. Indeed, the most recent cure to be declared “medically unexplainable”—a Frenchman paralysed with multiple sclerosis who was suddenly able to move after praying at Lourdes—was a difficult case for the medical committee to judge since there was no MRI (which the committee used in the 1990s to confirm his cure) prior to his self-declared recovery in 1987. His diagnosis was based only on symptoms, which are open to misinterpretation. In the end, the committee decided to pass his case on to the diocesan bishop, in Angoulême, who avoided the m-word, declaring his sudden and complete recovery “a personal gift from God and a sign of Christ the Saviour through the intercession of Our Lady of Lourdes.”

Most of the claims were actually from many many years ago, when medical science had not really advanced. . .

The articles concludes with this. . .

"Meanwhile, some scientists are concerned that the procedures used to assess miracles are a misuse of scientific methods. Others, less harshly, point out that what science has revealed about the inner workings of the cell would have seemed fantastic even a century ago; nature is, arguably, miraculous in itself. Researchers now know, for example, that certain genes switching on and off can cause spontaneous elimination of cancerous cells. But what suddenly initiates this process remains unknown. To the faithful, the trigger may as well be God.

Regardless of the sophistication of the medicine that the Church brings to the study of miracles, they remain, in the final analysis, a spiritual rather than a scientific matter. There is enough clarity in the miraculous to satisfy believers—and enough obscurity to satisfy sceptics."

Again where is the hard evidence of miracles that you keep crying about?. . .

italo:

The article saying nothing against my points.

Point out the lie.

You are just a liar, didn't you see where it says most of the people were already on medication even when there at Lourdes so that disentangling its impact from the Lourdes effect is also increasingly difficult. . . .That alone says everything about the jargon you have been saying. . .

BraveGuy:



You are the one who should be quiet, my friend, you're the deluded one.

Please disprove the Isaac Newton one

I haven't watched it but, it will turn out to be another nonsense, you rushed to post a documentary by James Cameron without knowing that his other documentary runs contrary to everything the bible says, he claims Jesus had a son and he found his tomb, you posted the drawing of a white girl who painted a white man as her god, now another one from Issac Newton?. . .Why should i accept it when you have been posting rubbish since?. . .

BraveGuy:



Show me where Moses denied that he wrote it.

Joshua said he did
The prophets said he did
The Jews said he did
Jesus said he did
History said he did
Archeology said he did

You and your so-called Jewish rabbis deny that he did.

Who is Joshua and where did Joshua said Moses wrote genesis?. . .Where did Jesus say Moses wrote Leviticus?. . .Which archaeology and where does it say Moses wrote Exodus?. . .Moses wrote about his death and as well, eh?. . .I gave you a single point which is the different writing styles, which puts an end to all the nonsense you have been saying. . .You have a rabbinical tradition that says Moses wrote some things, the same Rabbis looked at it closely and realized that the tradition was wrong. . . .Keep dancing around. . .You have nothing to show only that I believe. . .Where did Moses claim authorship of any book in the bible?. . .Do you even know how those books were written?. . .Why is genesis two written in old hebrew and genesis one written in the standard biblical hebrew?. . .The standard biblical hebrew was invented very long after the supposed life time of Moses so how did Moses write it?. . .

BraveGuy:

My friend, you are the deluded one.

I have my STRONG'S that help me with Hebrew or GREEK. And for your information, the Old Testament wasn't written in just the Hebrew language, but also Aramaic.

The OT is also partly written in some kind of Canaanite language. . .You have your strong?. . .What's that?. . .what do you know about the different writing styles that are found inside the Hebrew bible?. . .Where did Moses claim authorship of any book?. . .Is your strong or what ever you call him/her a professor of Jewish history?. . .Is he a rabbi?. . .Hope you know that is is actually mordern day rabbis that challened the tradition that says Moses wrote the fist 5 books because of the different writing styles. . .The consensus amonst bible scholars is that Moses did not write anything. . .You are not a bible scholar, you don't even know what come is in Hebrew, Canaanite or Aramaic. . . So what are you blabbing about when rabbis that are professors of Jewish history are talking?. . .

BraveGuy: Sometimes, you atheists are so funnily incredible!
Most of you rely heavily on the evidence of Science (with gaps in it). What most of failed to acknowledge was that someone such as Isaac Newton was one of the founding fathers of modern science. And almost all you do today was as a result of the influence of his achievements, and these are firmly entrenched in his faith.

Be quite, you keep posting thrash, you posted a documentary by James Cameron a ridiculous fellow who claimed to have found the Tomb of the son of Jesus christ in his documentary tilled "The Last Tomb Of Christ". . .You keep posting thrash. . .From a white girls drawing of a white man as your god to documentary made by shady characters that are just out to get money. . .archaeologists have challenged his claims, saying that his idea fails to hold by by archaeological standards, but makes for profitable television. . . .You are very funny. . .

BraveGuy:

So, because a man (or some men) call themselves Jewish Rabbis, I must take their word as authority? What about a proper and well documented video such as below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ryGVTRop8

They gave their very cogent reason's with the different writing styles. . .What do you know about the Hebrew language?. . .You don't even know what come is in the Hebrew language yet you are blindly disputing Rabbis that are also professors of Jewish history. . .You are clearly deluded. . .Where is your own evidence to show that the writing styles are all the same or are not different?. . .What do you know about the different writing styles used in the bible?. . .

BraveGuy: @KAY17
@mazaje1
@mazaje

There is evidence within the Pentateuch, which points to Mosaic authorship, since it clearly portrays Moses as the author of certain portions. “And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD” (Exodus 24:4, KJV). “And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people” (Exodus 24:7, KJV). “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel’” (Exodus 34:27, RSV). To these references many others could be added.

Moses was even referred to in teh 3rd person. . .No where in any of the books did Moses personally claim authorship. . .Rabbinical tradition is what ascribed the books to Moses and nothing else. . .The difference in writing styles destroys all claims that Moses wrote anything in the boks ascribed to his name. . .Provide your own evidence to counter the different biblical writing styles. . .

Not only does the internal evidence of the Scriptures make it clear that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, but other Old Testament books confirmed that Moses wrote those Books.
Joshua 8:32 (KJV) refers to “the law of Moses, which he wrote.”
Additional Old Testament references include I Kings 2:3, II Kings 14:6, and Joshua 23:6, which attribute to Moses as the writer of the Pentateuch.

Jewish tradition is firm in its belief in Mosaic authorship. Ecclesiasticus, one of the books of the apocrypha, written about 180 b.c., states, “All this is the covenant-book of God Most High, the Law which Moses enacted to be the heritage of the assemblies of Jacob” (Ecclesiasticus 24:23). The Talmud, in Baba Bathra, 146, which is a Jewish commentary on the first five books (around 200 b.c.), along with the writings of Flavius Josephus (born a.d. 37) and philo (a.d. 20) also concur.

The Jews, at the time of Jesus also confirmed this:
Mark 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

Early Christian tradition likewise agrees that Moses composed the Pentateuch. Go and check the writings of Junilius (a.d. 527–565) and Leontius of Byzantium (sixth century a.d.) along with Church fathers Melito (a.d. 175), Cyril of Jerusalem (a.d. 348–386), and Hilary (a.d. 366) teach that Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

Add to this the testimony of the New Testament. The apostles believed that “Moses wrote unto us” (Mark 12:19, KJV) as did the apostle Paul, who when speaking of a passage in the Pentateuch said, “Moses describeth” (Romans 10:5, KJV).

However, the issue as to the writer of the first five books is once-and-for-all solved by the testimony of the God-man, Jesus Christ. Jesus made it clear that Moses wrote these books (Mark 7:10; 10:3–5; 12:26; Luke 5:14; 16:29–31; 24:27, 44; John 7:19, 23).

In John 5:45–47, Jesus states, “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (NASB).

I would like to add two other points. Have you (or your sources) examined the evidence of history and archaeology?

Those who advocate that Moses is not the writer usually hold to the idea that there is no supernatural work of God in the world (as in your atheistic beliefs), nor has there ever been. So, it would be FOOLISH for you to believe all the historical information written about the creation of the world, the crossing of the Red Sea, conversations between God and Moses, or even the historical evidence that Moses, a prophet of God, wrote the account in the first place. The whole idea is more of a story.

First, you need to examine the evidence and then decide your case. I am not saying that simply examining the evidence means you will agree with someone else’s conclusions, but it does mean you are not rejecting the conclusions out of ignorance, but I think that is what you have leaned to do.

Second, in recent times (last 60-100yrs) archaeological finds have vindicated many of the Old Testament claims supporting the likelihood of Moses' to be the writer. This is because most all of the finds demonstrate that only someone who lived during the time the Bible claimed that Moses lived could have known and written about the things in these books.

I believe you will reconsider or review your sources again, making Wiki your final authority is the beginning of failure! There are better authority sources to check and re-check.

More thrash. there is a different between reality and tradition. . The tradition has always stated that Moses wrote it but the reality is that he didn't now where did he claim authorship, writings were done in 3rd person, very different writing styles that span years etc.. . .Where are the archaeological finds that points to Moses writing anything?. . .You just keep going to apologist sites to copy and past absolute rubbish. . .

BraveGuy:

You forgot that ANYONE can write ANYTHING on Wiki

I gave you a video link where Rabbis that double as professors of Jewish history stated the facts and you are here talking rubbish. . .