JESUS PROPHESIES “PEOPLE OF THE BOOK”-RELIGIONS AND TIME AND TOLD ORDER OF THOSE RELIGIONS: (Allah knows best)

FIRST SEE HOW JESUS PROPHESIED "KINGDOM OF GOD", ISLAM:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/islam/


If you can make prophecies to fit in history and into Bible, Christians have no other change but to accept them, if they want to be honest for themselves (Bible-passages after these explanations):

(These are connected to Luke.5:36-39, why new religion is necessary instead of change of old religions.)

---Matt.20:1-16, one "hour" is 200 years, "first hour" is Abraham, Jacob and Jews 1800-1700 BC, "third hour" is Sabians 1200-1100 BC, "sixth hour" is beginning of prophecies about Messiah 600 BC and "ninth hour" is Jesus coming 1 AD, "eleventh hour" is Islam 500-700 AD).----

In "third" hour you know it is talking about Sabians or Zarathustrians (Bible mentions two different “Sabians” in different directions), as "people who had nothing to do" clearly describes that right religion (as not yet corrupted, at least too much) was not yet given (from nations of that time) but for small group of Jews before.

In "eleventh hour" description matches Arabs, as people with nothing to do said "no one has not hired as yet", and Arabs were not given religion or messengers before Mohammed, in fact they were so despised that neither Persia or Byzantium tried to capture them, or to spread Christianity for them.

And finally "last coming as first and first as last" is just what prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) said, that even as he and Muslims came last, they will enter paradise first. By the way, in 20:12 people who came first (Jews) complaining about denary (paradise) for master (God) just because last (Muslims) did work so much more less time than them, is almost humorous description about Jews who even took salvation for their own nation and religion only.

Another prophecy:

---Luke.13:6-9, one "year" in prophecy is 600 years from Abraham to Islam=4 "years" 2400 years, 3 "years" before Jesus and 1 "year" from Jesus to Islam=600 years, when "tree of Judaism", and with it Jesus=Christianity, is cut down by Allah with "gardener" Jesus from way of Islam---

This is clear prophecy, if Christians would think even a little. Of course gardener talking to master (God) is Jesus himself, who presented this figure of speech. And when master (God) said to gardener (Jesus) that "cut this tree (symbol of Judaism generally in Bible, fig tree), it only takes strength from this ground", Jesus refers to his mission as reformatory of Judaism, as then Jesus says that he will take care from that land and "fertilize land around it", and that maybe "next year it will make fruits, and if not, THEN cut it down". And of course, tree (Judaism and sect of it, Christianity) was cut down (removed from religions of right way) as Islam came after that year (600 years) from "fertilized land AROUND IT" (around Israel, from Arabia, and Jesus made way for Islam by splitting Roman Empire to East and West Rome by religious differences in case of power and ruling, so weakening it, and Jesus also brought in principle monotheistic teaching in Bible for pagans who would not have Islam anyway if Romans had still be united).

As you see, connections in history are too much even for Christians to deny these prophecies, and Christians do not really have any reasonable (with deeper meaning) explanation for these parts of sayings of Jesus.
-------------------------------------------------

1 "hour" = approx. 200 hundred years, from Abraham/Jacob and Jews 1800 BC to Islam 632 AC = 2400 / 12 hours = 200

Matt.20:1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner (God) who went (send prophets) out early in the morning (first hour in Jewish calendar was 5 o´clock, so Abraham/Jews in 1800-1700 BC) to hire men (believers) to work (for His glory) in his vineyard (Earth). 2. He agreed to pay them a denarius (paradise) for the day (world history) and sent them into his vineyard.

3. "About the third hour (1200-1100 BC Sabians/Zarathustrians) he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing (Judaism had not spread). 4.He told them, 'You also (besides Judaism) go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5. So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour (600 BC beginning of prophesies about Messiah) and the ninth hour (around 1 AC Jesus were born) and did the same thing (created Christians and Christianity).
6. About the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) he went out (send prophet) and found still others (Arabs) standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing (Arabs had not had religions through prophets, only polytheism-paganism)?'

7. " 'Because no one has hired us (Arabs were so despised that even Byzantium or Persia did not want to conquer and convert them),' they answered."He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8. "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages (what they deserve), beginning with the last ones hired (Muslims) and going on to the first (Jews).'

9. "The workers (Muslims) who were hired about the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) came and each received a denarius. 10. So when those came who were hired first (Jews), they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner (God). 12. 'These men who were hired last (Muslims) worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day (persecutions, slavery, occupations).'

13. "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14. Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous (you wanna keep God for your nation only)?'

(26)

16. "So the last (Muslims) will be first, and the first (Jews) will be last."

-----------------------------------------
1 "year" = approx. 600 years, from Abraham / Jacob and so Jews 1800 BC to Islam 632 AC = 2400 / 4 = 600


Luke.13:6. Then he told this parable: "A master (God) had a fig tree (symbol of Israel in Bible), planted in his vineyard (Earth), and he went to look for fruit (results) on it, but did not find any. 7. So he said to the man (Jesus) who took care of the vineyard (Judaism only true religion in the world then), 'For three (1800) years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil (why not to do better religion)?'

8. " 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one (600) more year(s), and I'll dig around it and fertilize it (make world ready for Islam in Middle-East). 9. If it bears fruit next year (in 600 years), fine! If not, then cut it down (Judaism and its sect/branch Christianity).' "
-----------------------------------------

Some would say that verses in Matt.20:1-16 question actually point to divine generosity that transcends human ideas of fairness. Yes it can do that TOO (although first group complaining about payment because of extra-work and master getting furious about it does not really support it), but it is far more complex and long for that alone. It would have just be easy to say that master gives denar for workers, and that’s it.

Some say this Luke.13:6-9 is just numerical games. So tell me more reasonable and as compatible explanation. Fig tree is symbol of Judaism generally in Bible. Also when Jesus cursed fig tree in Matt.21:19 by words "may no fruit ever come from you again", he probably stated that no more prophets are going to come from Jews. And why time schedule fits so well in both of these to these religions, did Jesus not know about coming of Islam or did he not care how these look?

Luke.12:51-52 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.”

So house of Abraham is divided because of different beliefs on Jesus, mainly to 3 Christian religions (Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants) and to two Islamic religions (Sunni and Shiite)

Matt.12:26-27 Jesus told us that Islam can not be from satan, as it directs worshipping and bowing to God of Abraham, reason why satan fall from heaven, and so would never tell to do so. Even Jesus spoke about God of Abraham, “Father”, not about Jehovah for example. And “I am truth, way, and life” does not mean Jesus was god, but a prophet who taught TRUTH in monotheistic teaching about one God, who gave us WAY and example in worshipping on knees face to ground and being totally submitting to God, and all this will give LIFE. All Muslims have to believe in Jesus TOO to be Muslim.

Matt.21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

As Jesus told (to people who were there, so “Christians” also), Jews (and its sect Christianity as it is based only to Jewish nation) lost kingdom of God when it was given to Arabs, ONE nation. Here Jesus announced that He has been send to direct those few chosen Christians by Bible to Islam and to Muslim-countries (like for me it did):

John.10:16 ”I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen (offspring of Ishmael, not Isaac-Jewish). I must bring them also (Jesus in Quran and monotheism/prophesies in Bible). They too will listen to my voice (same message), and there shall be one flock and one shepherd (monotheistic believers and prophets teaching about one God, now only Islam).”

Matt.18:12-14 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the MOUNTAINS and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. In the same way, my Father in heaven does not want one of these little children to be lost.”

Luke.15:4-7 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the DESERT (open pasture) and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbours, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost! I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. “

Here words (leaving other sheep’s at SAFELY HOME in) “MOUNTAINS” and “DESERT” describe general nature in Muslim-countries near Christian countries.

Matt.9:12-13 “But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Luke.9:56 “for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.”

So Jesus was king, Messiah, he divided Rome to east and west by religious differences (about power), Muslims got East Rome because of that, Byzantium. And he “sacrificed”, for sake of both Muslims and Christians, but he did not need to make it to forgive all sins of mankind, but perhaps only in describing way (for that all who will find Islam get to start with no sins again). If Europe, America and Africa had remind in paganism and with ruler-gods, persecution for Muslims would have been much worse than it was for Christians, who did not have such strict demand for total monotheism.

THIS WAS FROM MY WRITING IN:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

Amazing....

There is no god but God (Allah), and Mohammed is (one of) His prophet(s).

This shows just how good bible can be at its best....

Teach them, brother!

"Teach them, brother!"

my words too exactly! this was my favorite too from writings of adurahmeen. i feel lucky for happening to find this forum.

if this gets new reverts even here on this forum, should we help abdurahmeen to share information also with others?

i think that after all, that was his most important motivation for putting his writing here...

Thanks for posting. Why is it that all the muslims on the forum are neither male nor female

Why is it that all the muslims on the forum are neither male nor female

Because Muslims don't discriminate.

umm i don't get dat!! wat has discrimination got to do with pinpointin ur gender?

Ask again damygurl. However, our brother from the other faith are doing their very best to bring out the best in them. That is quite commendable. So Jesus prophesied Islam? This a very good write up made of conjectures, half truths and misinterpretations. However, I am glad you recognise Jesus as the son of God. Keep up the spirit

Luke.12:51-52 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.”

So house of Abraham is divided because of different beliefs on Jesus, mainly to 3 Christian religions (Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants) and to two Islamic religions (Sunni and Shiite)

@ elbaron, Ghanaman, how else would you have interpreted these? Let's read your own attempt at interpreting them before you rubbish AbduRahman's as conjecture!

Matt.18:12-14 "...In the same way, my Father in heaven does not want one of these little children to be lost.”

AbduRahman was only quoting from Mathew 18:12-14, he never agreed nor "recogni[zed] Jesus as the son of God." Please, stop putting words into people's mouth in order to support your illusion.

Ajisafe. Thank you for your post. However, I did not call anybody's writtings a conjecture. All I said was that YOUR write up was made of conjectures and half truths. In other words, I was talking about what you wrote and not what AbduRahman wrote. I respect your believe and religion and have nothing against it. But when you want to juxtapose the bible with your teachings and believes, it kind of makes it all very confusing.

Dont get me wrong, I like the fact that you are posting these topics, you may even get me as a revert some day if you are able to convince me. I am only saying that I see no relationship with what was written in the bible as you quoted and the inference you are drawing. That is my opinion and I believe I am entitled. By the way, I am Nigerian and Ibo not Ghanaian. I just happen to be living in Ghana at the moment.

According to the text you quoted, five members of the family would be divided amongst themselves, three against two and two against three, have you noticed the goings on in Iraq lately? Where sunni and Shiite Moslem's are slaughtering themselves like Christmas goat? How will you interprete that?

Before you call my beliefs an illusion, did you make an attempt to consider the writtings of your own prophet about my believe? Brother, it will do us good to keep it civil. We are all entitled to our views. I will appreciate an education from you on this issue. Just as a matter of interest, if AbduRahman will quote verses from the bible and you will base your opinions (viz: Jesus prophesied islam) on these very same verses, would it not be fair to say that both you and AbduRahman believe the writings of the bible? And if this is so, would it not be safe to assume that Abdurahman believed in the existence of Jesus? If this further assumption is correct and the bible makes it clear that Jesus is the Son of God, and you are implying that I am putting words in AbuRahman's mouth, are you then saying that AbduRahman accepts only portions of the bible that suit his fancy? I would certainly hope not. By the way, I use both the Bible and the Koran as a point of historical reference only. Have a nice day.

My most sincere regards

All I said was that YOUR write up was made of conjectures and half truths. In other words, I was talking about what you wrote and not what AbduRahman wrote.

Actually, it was AbduRahman's write up, and I only answered a questioner that asked why the Muslims on the forum are "genderless."

Before you call my beliefs an illusion, did you make an attempt to consider the writtings of your own prophet about my believe?

The Holy Prophet Muhammad was an un-lettered individual, so there were no "writings" of his; however, I am aware of his teachings concerning your religion.

According to the text you quoted, five members of the family would be divided amongst themselves, three against two and two against three, have you noticed the goings on in Iraq lately? Where sunni and Shiite Moslem's are slaughtering themselves like Christmas goat? How will you interprete that?

Again, it wasn't my quote. And, so what if Sunni and Shiite Muslims killed one another? Christian sects had "slaughter[ed] themselves like Christmas goat[s]" in the past. What's your point?

would it not be fair to say that both you and AbduRahman believe the writings of the bible? And if this is so, would it not be safe to assume that Abdurahman believed in the existence of Jesus? If this further assumption is correct and the bible makes it clear that Jesus is the Son of God, and you are implying that I am putting words in AbuRahman's mouth, are you then saying that AbduRahman accepts only portions of the bible that suit his fancy?

AbduRahman and I only believe in what the holy Qur'an says about Jesus, as being one of the mightiest prophets of Allah. No Muslim is a true believer if he/she doesn't believe in the existence/immaculate conception of Prophet Jesus through that chaste woman, Mariam. Our belief reinforces it that the venerable Prophet Jesus was sent to his people (the children of Isreal) in order to prepare them for the coming of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

---Thanks for posting. Why is it that all the muslims on the forum are neither male nor female ---

I am male, but why should it matter is one giving evidence for you male or female? It is your butt in fire of hell, not his/hers!!!

Elbaron:

I mentioned this in my text too. And I gave some explanations about "Christian interpretation". IT IS JUST TRUTH THAT IN CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATION JESUS JUST USED TOO COMPLEX WAY TO DESCRIBE MOST SIMPLE THINGS ALL ALREADY KNEW ABOUT, AND SO HE WAS JUST MAN WITH BIG WORDS? DID JESUS HAD JUST SOME PLEASURE ABOUT MAKING MANY PEOPLE NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND HIM, OR EVEN GOING ASTRAY (LIKE YOU ARE CLAIMING TO HAVE HAPPENED FOR ME BECAUSE OF THIS CLEAR AND WELL FITTING INTERPRETATION)?

----Some would say that verses in Matt.20:1-16 question actually point to divine generosity that transcends human ideas of fairness. Yes it can do that TOO (although first group complaining about payment because of extra-work and master getting furious about it does not really support it), but it is far more complex and long for that alone. It would have just be easy to say that master gives denar for workers, and that’s it.

Some say this Luke.13:6-9 is just numerical games. So tell me more reasonable and as compatible explanation. Fig tree is symbol of Judaism generally in Bible. Also when Jesus cursed fig tree in Matt.21:19 by words "may no fruit ever come from you again", he probably stated that no more prophets are going to come from Jews. And why time schedule fits so well in both of these to these religions, did Jesus not know about coming of Islam or did he not care how these look? ----

AbduRahman,

I find your response to my post very offensive. I think it is the height of disrespect for you to rubbish the Image of Jesus as just a man of many words. I do not us to reduce this to name calling and an outlet for religious bickering. I do not know why you signed on to this forum but I came here to learn and to contribute my own 2 cents where called for.

However, to answer your question, I will ask you another. Does it mean that the Holy Prophet Mohamed derives pleasure from seeing people suffer? Does it mean that the Holy prophet does not know what tolerance means? According to his teachings in the Holy Koran (9: 73) and I quote: "O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." Do you suppose that God himself will tolerate this? If he will, how come he did not obliterate Satan completely?

Consider this writting also "I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12). Does these not show that the Holy prophet derived pleasure from seeing people who differ from him ideaologically, suffer?

Which is better? A man of big words or one who sows the seeds of turture? Do these not show you sadistic tendecies in the teacher? Have a good day while you ponder these.

u know what when a christian starts a thread it is done with no discrimination but when a muslim starts one no one can air their views. it really is sad.

Along with the parable in Luke about the workers and three in a family against two and two against three I am sure this portion of the Bible's OT can be "worked in" to the thoughts:

Zec 11:3-14
There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled.
Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;
Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, "Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not."
For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them.
And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. [/color]
Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

Fig tree is symbol of Judaism generally in Bible. Also when Jesus cursed fig tree in Matt.21:19 by words "may no fruit ever come from you again", he probably stated that no more prophets are going to come from Jews.

Mt 11:7-15
And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

(Mal 3:1-6  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed)

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

(Mal 4:4-6 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.)

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Nu 12:6-8
And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

De 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face

De 18:15-22
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me (Moses) ; unto him ye shall hearken;
According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

2Pe 1:16-2:3
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Peter plainly states that "there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you"

Jesus was the Last and Greatest Prophet to come and now all we can expect is false prophets and false teachers because our[b] only [/b] Teacher is the Holy Spirit

Joh 14:25-27
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you  not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

I mentioned this in my text too. And I gave some explanations about "Christian interpretation". IT IS JUST TRUTH THAT IN CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATION JESUS JUST USED TOO COMPLEX WAY TO DESCRIBE MOST SIMPLE THINGS ALL ALREADY KNEW ABOUT, AND SO HE WAS JUST MAN WITH BIG WORDS? DID JESUS HAD JUST SOME PLEASURE ABOUT MAKING MANY PEOPLE NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND HIM, OR EVEN GOING ASTRAY

I'll make this short and sweet:

Jesus said many times He taught in parables and why.  It was a "weeding out" process as to who could "hear" the Spirit Teaching them what Jesus was saying or if they were listening to the world of flesh. 
"The proof is in the pudding..." 

Good Night and may God Bless and watch over us,
RhodaRose

However, to answer your question, I will ask you another. Does it mean that the Holy Prophet Mohamed derives pleasure from seeing people suffer? Does it mean that the Holy prophet does not know what tolerance means?

@ elbaron,
Please, study your bible very well! In fact, I can show you hundreds of thousands of violent verses, rapes, and sexual immoralities directly or indirectly sanctioned in your bible.

Beautiful, Ajisafe, I would be delighted to see these passages. Any help from you would be appreciated. By the way, I read my bible very well

Elbaron:

----I find your response to my post very offensive.----

Sorry, was not intention. I just tried to make you THINK that is there any sense in all that Christian interpretation.


-----I think it is the height of disrespect for you to rubbish the Image of Jesus as just a man of many words.----

But point here is, why did Jesus, propably most intelligent human ever lived, used so complicated words just to describe most simple of things, about God giving reward for believers? Could it not have been said just by few simple words that everybody would understand (especially if it is not even prophecy)?

Most popular Christian interpretation is that here Jesus told how disciples were hired in "first" and "third" hours as apostles (it does not make sense at all, as all disciples were "hired" at once by Jesus, not in two time periods, and why would apostles be unhappy about later Christians entering also paradise, even before them, as they were one to convert them?), and that from "sixth" to "ninth" hour is about apostle Paul (again, why it would have been said to happen between these two time-periods, and not just in one?), and that in last hour is talked about all later Christians (who will come "first even though they were last", why would they enter paradise before apostles, and especially why would apostles go mad about them going one second before them into paradise, as all mentioned in parallel are saved anyway?).

At least in my interpretation there is not only prophecy about coming of Islam, and description/time-schedule about "People of the Book" mentioned in Qur´an 600 years later, but also warning that people should follow most recent prophet to be saved for sure, allthough believers of previous religions have been right too, and have been saved.

---I do not us to reduce this to name calling and an outlet for religious bickering. I do not know why you signed on to this forum but I came here to learn and to contribute my own 2 cents where called for.---

I think same, but here you can not have real opinion without DEBATE.

----However, to answer your question, I will ask you another. Does it mean that the Holy Prophet Mohamed derives pleasure from seeing people suffer? Does it mean that the Holy prophet does not know what tolerance means?----

FIRST, prophet (pbuh) did not give these kind of unclear explanations (especially with possibility to connect it to prove about another religion), he explained how and why we should believe. Should not have "all knowing" and "almighty" "god-Jesus" do the same?

SECOND, you are believing into "love-god-Jesus-saves-all", not we Muslims. Whole consept of hell is in HUGE contradiction with your image about god, who "forgave sins of mankind" (why then to put there demand to believe him as a god, even though even he himself did not claim to be that, at least without possibility for Muslims to interpretate those "divine-claims" just to mean that he is prophet), as is whole crule and unfair world we are living in, where strongest/best survives. But Allah, even though Merciful, did not say He is "total love", He is also GOD you know much better from OT.

---According to his teachings in the Holy Koran (9: 73) and I quote: "O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." Do you suppose that God himself will tolerate this? If he will, how come he did not obliterate Satan completely?----

That is Allah speaking, not prophet (pbuh). And it is order for prophet (pbuh) for certain situation and time, where he and Muslims were attacked by non-believers in Arabia. OF COURSE he had right to protect himself! Allah´s will WILL come to pass, eventhough that would mean killing most or all people in Earth (He created you and so have right to do so). You can not prevent it, you can only pray and hope that it would happen in some other way, there is SIGN for you how very small Muslim-army eventually brought even Rome to its knees, advancing all the way to France.

And why would Allah "obliterate Satan completely", when His will was to make him test us (as and how Allah gives permission him to do so)?

---Consider this writting also "I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12). Does these not show that the Holy prophet derived pleasure from seeing people who differ from him ideaologically, suffer?---

What does God in OT like about unbelievers? As Almighty, All Knowing and as a Creator, He has certainly decided what each of us is going to believe and do as He created us such, even according to Bible. So He is tormenting people just because He created them to be tornmented. That should give you some example what kind of God we are talking about here, AND WHY WE SHOULD FEAR HIM. And that will also give you one reason why people go from worshipping TRUE God into these "Vishna-loves-you-all"-god´s, we would like God to be what we want, not what He is.

---Which is better? A man of big words or one who sows the seeds of turture? Do these not show you sadistic tendecies in the teacher? Have a good day while you ponder these.---

Followers of Jesus (and people from Christian culture backround with teachings of Christian morale) have killed hundreds of millions of people in different wars, colonialism, conquests and crusades. Even though Jesus told excactly otherwise.

Some Irak-Iran war caused by Saddam Hussein and million deaths there is QUITE small compared to all that, Muslims have not have "world wars", "reformation-wars" or "hundred year wars". And that is because Islam gave clear rules for war, and said when it can be done and when not. Say again, which religion brought us "PEACE" Have a nice day.

Elbaron (please notice also my previous answer to you for your latest answer for me):

---However, I am glad you recognise Jesus as the son of God. Keep up the spirit---

It is only yours interpretation that "son of God" is meaning ACTUAL offspring conceived by God. In OT (Taurah) it is not so, there all prophets and many more, even Adam, are called "sons of God", it is Jewish FIGURE OF SPEECH in their language meaning somebody very close and important for God, and Jews understood it as according to writings in Bible (acts of Apostles) they did let early Christians use synagogues (they would have never let prophet-worshippers to do that, but Jews had also MANY OTHER prophets that all Jews did not accept, only some).

When this term were translated to Greek, and propagated by Paul among Greek-pagans (who did not know anything about Taurah, OT, as Paul even had permission not to teach it to them), they did mix it with their Greek-pagan beliefs where sons of god´s came to Earth (like Hercules, son of Zeus). That is why Jesus said that "I have not been sent but unto lost sheeps of house of Israel". You in Africa should be WELL aware about mixing of religions, you have quite variety of Animism-Christianity there.

----if AbduRahman will quote verses from the bible and you will base your opinions (viz: Jesus prophesied islam) on these very same verses, would it not be fair to say that both you and AbduRahman believe the writings of the bible?---

We believe this clear prophecy here, because it has been hidded from you Christians, so that you have not been able to understand it so that you would have had opportunity to modify it. But rest in Bible is totally different thing.

---And if this is so, would it not be safe to assume that Abdurahman believed in the existence of Jesus? If this further assumption is correct and the bible makes it clear that Jesus is the Son of God, and you are implying that I am putting words in AbuRahman's mouth,----

See my previous answer, I BELIEVE into "son of God" as Jews did, but I DO NOT BELIEVE that Allah had a son!

---According to the text you quoted, five members of the family would be divided amongst themselves, three against two and two against three, have you noticed the goings on in Iraq lately? Where sunni and Shiite Moslem's are slaughtering themselves like Christmas goat? How will you interprete that?---

There has been more conflicts between Muslims and Christians than between different sects of these religions. But if these parties did turn against each others, could it NOT mean that also everyone of them is against each others (in some point)? At least it has not been denyed....

RhodaRose:

--- Along with the parable in Luke about the workers and three in a family against two and two against three I am sure this portion of the Bible's OT can be "worked in" to the thoughts: ---

Much of your Bible passages did not have any connection what so ever into our subject or into divinity of Jesus, so I did cut them out. Sorry if there was also something worth answering that I did not notice (my native language is Finnish), then please point them out more accurately.

--- Quote
Fig tree is symbol of Judaism generally in Bible. Also when Jesus cursed fig tree in Matt.21:19 by words "may no fruit ever come from you again", he probably stated that no more prophets are going to come from Jews.

Mt 11:7-15
And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. ----

Yep, more than a prophet, prophesied Messiah for Jews, "King of Jews". Now about 33% from our planet is crazy about him, without him they would be polytheistic pagans. Something good in bad. "King of Jews" just said it all, as Jews are one special kind of "problem case", and Christians just one big "freak show" from view of Islam and Muslims...

--- Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.---

And those who took it by force were Muslims, when they conquered Rome, Byzantium, so ending home of Christianity.

--- (Mal 4:4-6 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.) ---

"Turn to" is different than "turn against".

--- He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. ---

Qur´an is like music, each Sura has its own melodies even recognized from music of this day.



---De 18:15-22
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me (Moses) ; unto him ye shall hearken;---

"LIKE UNTO ME" !!! So prophet who is "god" or prophet who is king-prophet Was Moses "god"

----I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.---

Again, "LIKE UNTO THEE", prophet LIKE Moses. Was Moses "god" (Jesus) or king (Mohammed)? Did he survive (Jesus) or did he die and was buried (Mohammed)? Was never accepted by his own nation (Jesus) or was first rejected and then accepted (Mohammed)? Did he teach about pacifism (Jesus) or did he execute people (Mohammed)?

---And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.---

Mohammed (pbuh) said he is last prophet, Jesus did not say so. And as Mohammed, also all Muslims start every day their prayers and reading of Qur´an with words "In the name of most Merciful...".

---But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.---

And so God let Mohammed (pbuh) to recitate Qur´an for 23 years, finish Qur´an with "ending words" just before his death, and accomplish his mission in spreading Islam making sure it will survive?

But paul who died very fast after starting his mission among pagans, is not false prophet?

---And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.---

All prophesies in Qur´an happened very soon, and prophesies in hadiths have happened from that time until nowadays. There is reason why even most non-Muslims call him "prophet Mohammed" when referring to him.

Paul did give prophesies for example about coming persecutions of Christians, but those were already happening, and even he himself had done that! Prophecy And only prophet has authority to make teachings into religion, why is Christianity now based mostly on Paul?

--- 2Pe 1:16-2:3
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.---

"Whom I am well pleased", NOT "Whom I have conceived". You Christians are so close to salvation, but just not enough. If you only knew... This is harsh game for those who will promote themselves, and who consider that they can interpretate correctly this mambo-jambo just by his own opinions and feelings, by following other HUMANS who have done the same, without any reasoning based on facts. So think twice before you even try it.

[b]---We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Peter plainly states that "there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you"---[/b]

And Jesus told in last supper to disciples that "one of you is satan". Why would he say that about Judas, as according to Jesus it was MENTIONED that he will deceive him (and then Judas run away because Jesus said that)? Of course that is possible, but it is possible also that Jesus was then not speaking about deceit of Judas....

---Jesus was the Last and Greatest Prophet to come and now all we can expect is false prophets and false teachers because our only Teacher is the Holy Spirit---

Jesus did not say he is last prophet. And if he did not say so, why would Peter have right to prophesie so? Was Peter a prophet

--- Joh 14:25-27
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.---

This difference from other passage mentioning "Spirit of Truth" / "Comforter" / "Defender" / "Counselor" in John 16 and in earlier John 14:15-21, there is not said he is "Holy Spirit". In fact could be that in John 14:25-27 is mentioned totally other "Counselor", and so that "Spirit of Truth" mentioned earlier and in John.16 is not "Holy Spirit" (different names as you see).


--- Quote
I mentioned this in my text too. And I gave some explanations about "Christian interpretation". IT IS JUST TRUTH THAT IN CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATION JESUS JUST USED TOO COMPLEX WAY TO DESCRIBE MOST SIMPLE THINGS ALL ALREADY KNEW ABOUT, AND SO HE WAS JUST MAN WITH BIG WORDS? DID JESUS HAD JUST SOME PLEASURE ABOUT MAKING MANY PEOPLE NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND HIM, OR EVEN GOING ASTRAY

I'll make this short and sweet:

Jesus said many times He taught in parables and why. It was a "weeding out" process as to who could "hear" the Spirit Teaching them what Jesus was saying or if they were listening to the world of flesh.
"The proof is in the pudding..." ----

And why do you think that those who "hear Spirit" would be modern Trinity-Christians, and not Muslims, who have more mentions about Jesus in Qur´an more than there is mentions about any other prophet, even about Mohammed (pbuh)?

---Good Night and may God Bless and watch over us,
RhodaRose---

Same back to you.

AbduRahman,

There is sense in some of your writtings but I do not agree with most of your thoughts. You see my only problem is an acceptance of either the bible or the Qu' ran as a source of authority and the other issue would be that of interpretation. I have a tendency to interprete the bible in a different light from you. I think this is an issue we should explore.

On the other issues, I will quote the Qu 'ran and rest my case on that until such a time as we have fully exploited the different avenues of interpretation of the holy texts. Sura 108 says and I quote "1. Say (O Muhammad to these Mushrikun and Kafirun): "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!

2. I worship not that which you worship,

3. Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4. And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

5. Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6. "To you be your religion, and to me be mine"

While I wait for your response, have a lovely day.

The El-Baron

Can SEUN ban this topic IMMEDIATELY?
We know of many religious conflict in our country. We know Kano, Sokoto, Lagos, Ilorin,Plateu religious riot.
What is the difference btw the writings in this forum and what that Lady(This Day Reporter) wrote.
All i know s nobody can fight for God, Religion or Prophets.
Seun, pls ACT NOW.

@ Akolawole
Why would you want that? there is no violence in this thread. The honest discussion is showing exactly the kind of spirit that can stop those religious fights.

My personal reading (and I'm neither Christian, nor Muslim) is that the Christians are much easier offended than the Muslims on this board. Educated Muslims usually respect Christians and Jews, something that cannot be said of the other side of the divide

Especially when you consider the incredible horror that the Christians of the past have inflicted on Muslims, it is highly commendable that most Muslims take such a respectful attitude. The current Muslim terrorism as well as the theocratic regimes in some Muslim countries is rather atypical in a historical context.

Akolawole:

Can SEUN ban this topic IMMEDIATELY?
We know of many religious conflict in our country. We know Kano, Sokoto, Lagos, Ilorin,Plateu religious riot.
What is the difference between the writings in this forum and what that Lady(This Day Reporter) wrote.
All i know s nobody can fight for God, Religion or Prophets.
Seun, please ACT NOW.

Why I say bring it on, if you don't like the thread simply move on.. Its simple if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
I don't really have any interest in this particular thread but i will fight tooth and nail to keep it here.

Akolawole, what is there for Seun to act on. We are all adults expressing our opinion and views. We are discussing an issue that has been the core of man's confusion since the begining of time. I think it is quite educative and should not be stiffled. Have a nice day

To Nferyn, ijebuman and Elbaron.
I am a Christian but i was brought up with Muslim. Some of my best friends are Muslim. Good ,good fellows.
We have had arguments before but when its Bible./Jesus/Koran/Mohammed ARGUMENTS my so-called friends' COUNTENANCE changed they become another thing.
Well if u people want to continue ALL THE VERY BEST, I will wait to know whether u actually "educate" yourself.

this is how abdurahmeen presented this writing in other form on other discussion forum, could be more easy to understand for somebody, as some even claimed that his topic should be closed because it is dangerous (?)!

i think you can see from here that he is giving great example about similarities and common points for inter-religion communication between Islam and Christianity. that even previous pope encouraged, this can bring two religion more closer to each others.

JESUS PROPHESIED ISLAM, AND DESCRIBED "PEOPLE OF THE BOOK":

(These are connected to Luke.5:36-39, why new religion is necessary instead of change of old religions.)

1 "hour" = approx. 200 hundred years, from Abraham/Jacob and Jews 1800 BC to Islam 632 AC = 2400 / 12 hours = 200

Matt.20:1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner (God) who went (send prophets) out early in the morning (first hour in Jewish calendar was 5 o´clock, so Abraham/Jews in 1800-1700 BC) to hire men (believers) to work (for His glory) in his vineyard (Earth). 2. He agreed to pay them a denarius (paradise) for the day (world history) and sent them into his vineyard.

3. "About the third hour (1200-1100 BC Sabians/Zarathustrians) he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing (Judaism had not spread). 4.He told them, 'You also (besides Judaism) go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5. So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour (600 BC beginning of prophesies about Messiah) and the ninth hour (around 1 AC Jesus were born) and did the same thing (created Christians and Christianity).
6. About the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) he went out (send prophet) and found still others (Arabs) standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing (Arabs had not had religions through prophets, only polytheism-paganism)?'

7. " 'Because no one has hired us (Arabs were so despised that even Byzantium or Persia did not want to conquer and convert them),' they answered."He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8. "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages (what they deserve), beginning with the last ones hired (Muslims) and going on to the first (Jews).'

9. "The workers (Muslims) who were hired about the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) came and each received a denarius. 10. So when those came who were hired first (Jews), they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner (God). 12. 'These men who were hired last (Muslims) worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day (persecutions, slavery, occupations).'

13. "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14. Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous (you want to keep God for your nation only)?'

(26)

16. "So the last (Muslims) will be first, and the first (Jews) will be last."

-----------------------------------------
1 "year" = approx. 600 years, from Abraham / Jacob and so Jews 1800 BC to Islam 632 AC = 2400 / 4 = 600


Luke.13:6. Then he told this parable: "A master (God) had a fig tree (symbol of Israel in Bible), planted in his vineyard (Earth), and he went to look for fruit (results) on it, but did not find any. 7. So he said to the man (Jesus) who took care of the vineyard (Judaism only true religion in the world then), 'For three (1800) years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil (why not to do better religion)?'

8. " 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one (600) more year(s), and I'll dig around it and fertilize it (make world ready for Islam in Middle-East). 9. If it bears fruit next year (in 600 years), fine! If not, then cut it down (Judaism and its sect/branch Christianity).' "
-----------------------------------------

these were also added recently on abdurahmeens page in angelfire, again pointing out how peaceful his interpretation actually is for both religions:



Most popular Christian interpretation is that here Jesus told how disciples were hired in "first" and "third" hours as apostles (it does not make sense at all, as all disciples were "hired" at once by Jesus, not in two time periods, and why would apostles be unhappy about later Christians entering also paradise, even before them, as they were one to convert them?), and that from "sixth" to "ninth" hour is about apostle Paul (again, why it would have been said to happen between these two time-periods, and not just in one?), and that in last hour is talked about all later Christians (who will come "first even though they were last", why would they enter paradise before apostles, and especially why would apostles go mad about them going one second before them into paradise, as all mentioned in parallel are saved anyway?).

But point here is, why did Jesus, propably most intelligent human ever lived, used so complicated words just to describe most simple of things, about God giving reward for believers? Could it not have been said just by few simple words that everybody would understand (especially if it is not even prophecy)? Did he have to promote his ability for making parallels? Did he use "big words" just to confuse us, especially Muslims who see this as prophecy?

At least in my interpretation there is not only prophecy about coming of Islam, and description/time-schedule about "People of the Book" mentioned in Qur´an 600 years later, but also warning that people should follow most recent prophet to be saved for sure, allthough believers of previous religions have been right too, and have been saved.



Matt.22:45 “If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he (Jesus) be his son?"

Here only possibility could be that spirit of Jesus were born before David, and so Jesus was in “high rank” compared to David (Jesus is most mentioned prophet in Qur´an). Idea about Jesus being son of David, from descent of David, refutes idea about actual “son of God”, as if Jesus had no human father, then he did not have genetically background in David that was from family of Joseph. So why would God be his genetic father then, if even David was not? So Jesus confirmed evolution (see my writing in link "Human development / Evolution", and there about Jesus saying he was before Abraham), and that he is “son of God”, prophet, as Jews understood it, but not son of Allah...

i could not imagine any better quote after these writings of abdurahmeen:

002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Take a good look at this picture in my link. Do you see form there? Do you understand what had to happen that it is like that now, from Mongol-invasion to Turkish migration and collapse of Byzantium, just to mention few events? You dare to say there is no planner behind that?

[ This is connected to my previous post ( https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-2603.0.html ), but definitely needs its own post as many people seem to ignore it. ]

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/islam/

Good that you noticed. As you see, I changed Bible passages in my original writing also into that form, maybe more easy and in short form enough for some to understand.