Ovamboland:

Hey sister Pilgrim how do you post a previous comment to show the poster and time posted in quotes?

Simple:

(a) when you click on "reply" and are about typing,

(b) just scroll down to the particular quote you want to include in your reply;

(c) then look at the top right hand of that person's quote, where you see the "Insert Quote"

(d) click on that, and it will appear in yours

(e) then edit as you want if you don't want the whole quote.


NB. . no misquote people O. . dem go vex tear you to pieces if you do so!

@sleekmag,

How body today?

sleekymag:

Note verse 39 states that all that were brought to the chambers were all the offerings collected (as stated in verse 37) but not all the tithes collected, they only brought the tithe of the tithes), where did the remaining tithes go to if they were not taken to the chambers? Verse 37 and 38 makes us see it went to the levites. So, in a nutshell, what went out of the pockets or barns of the Israelites, was never 1% but their tithes, which is 10%.

Okay, no wahala. That was why I asked us to first look to the LAW and find where this practice was declared. What we are missing here is that in Nehemiah 10:38, this practice was said to be "as it is written in the law" (vv. 34 & 36).

When you go back to the LAW itself (Numbers 18, for instance), you find the two types of priestly services in the worship center: and I have enuciated them earlier:

● the sanctuary of the altar - (see Num. 18:3 & 5)

● the Tabernacle of congregation - (see Num. 18:6 & 23)

However, you will find that the Levites were specifically prohibited from engaging in the service of the sanctuary of the altar at that time (see Numbers 18:2-3); rather, it was only the chosen priests from Aaron's lineage that were alloted that service - which is why we find again that in accordance to the LAW, there were two sets of priests in Nehemiah 10 --

● unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God – v.37
● and the priests that minister – v. 39

We should not confuse them, sleekmag.

So, what's the point? The point is that the "tithe of the tithes" in Nehemiah 10:38 was not focusing on the tithe of the Levites alone; but rather on the total value of Israel's tithes. How is this? Because in Ezra 8 we find that when all these things were brought in, they were "weighed" out in reference to what ISRAEL brought, and not what the Levites gave. That is why we read in Nehemiah 10:38 that the chief priest (representative of Aaron) was to be with the Levites when take the tithes. When this is done, the Levites took just a tenth portion of the collective tenth offered by Israel to "the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house". Go on to chapter 11:1 and see that they had Jerusalem in mind when referring to the house of God.

Which again brings us to Ezra 8 - please read it again and see what is happening and then come back and let's see if what you were assuming in Nehmiah 10:38.

@pilgrim.1 & sleekymag
This your back and forth argument about wether tithes is 10% or 1%, levites, priests, Aaron, store house, heave offferings, hallowed part e.t.c Just goes to establish further that Biblical tithing as ordained by God is neither practical today nor is it being practised. ( what we have today is an adulterated manipulative version). The structures and culture(levite priesthood which included non ownership of property) that supports and requires biblical tithing is no longer existent even amongst the Jews that received the law and still implement it today, talkless of christians that it was not directed to.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@pilgrim.1 & sleekymag
This your back and forth argument about wether tithes is 10% or 1%, levites, priests, Aaron, store house, heave offferings, hallowed part e.t.c Just goes to establish further that Biblical tithing as ordained by God is neither practical today nor is it being practised.

Hehe. . . you see your problem? Since I started shouting say make we no go there, una no hear word. I kept saying that my persuasions are not based on the old covenant and was asking us to look at the principles and what moved Abraham to tithe - but no: every single time, na so-so "LAW, manipulation, barawo" you sabi!

I don tell you before: open your eyes and read - and you will see why I have said again and again that tithes are the simplest of issues to understand, unless people want to be complicated. At this stage, even after you guys have argued for the LAW and refused to look outside of it, you find yourselves tired out already on your own assumptions. Did I not warn earlier that we shall all make a huge mistake to knot ourselves further if we hold on too fastidiously on the LAW? I no talk am before?

KunleOshob:

( what we have today is an adulterated manipulative version).

Na you sabi - that's what you have. E no concern me too much.

KunleOshob:

The structures and culture(levite priesthood which included non ownership of property) that supports and requires biblical tithing is no longer existent even amongst the Jews that received the law and still implement it today, talkless of christians that it was not directed to.

Hahaha! Make I laff u finish! ou are still making the same mistake - always on "the Law". You be lawyer?!? Bros, sidon small and look outside the Levites, then you go see Melchizedek. You hear?

Bless.

@ pilgrim.1,

So, what's the point? The point is that the "tithe of the tithes" in Nehemiah 10:38 was not focusing on the tithe of the Levites alone; but rather on the total value of Israel's tithes. How is this? Because in Ezra 8 we find that when all these things were brought in, they were "weighed" out in reference to what ISRAEL brought, and not what the Levites gave. That is why we read in Nehemiah 10:38 that the chief priest (representative of Aaron) was to be with the Levites when take the tithes. When this is done, the Levites took just a tenth portion of the collective tenth offered by Israel to "the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house". Go on to chapter 11:1 and see that they had Jerusalem in mind when referring to the house of God.

Which again brings us to Ezra 8 - please read it again and see what is happening and then come back and let's see if what you were assuming in Nehmiah 10:38.

Ezra 8:24 -30 was only referring to offerings and not tithes (vs 25,28). And it was for the house of God and the King, leaders and all the people of Irael present there gave these.

Neh 10:38 was only talking about the tithe of tithes and not the offerings. Verse 37a talks about these offerings (firstfruits and others) and states that it goes to the chambers.

Nhe 11:1 on the other hand was talking about the people needed in Jerusalem.

1 ¶ And the rulers of the people dwelt at Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts to dwell in other cities. (KJV)

Jerusalem certainly had many inhabitants at this time; but not sufficient to preserve the city, which was now encompassed with a wall, and the rebuilding of which was going on fast. Nehemiah therefore obliged one tenth of the country people to come and dwell in it, that the population might be sufficient for the preservation and defence of the city. Ten were set apart, and the lot cast among them to see which one of the ten should take up his residence in the city. (Adam's Clark Commentary)

@sleemag,

sleekymag:

Ezra 8:24 -30 was only referring to offerings and not tithes (vs 25,28). And it was for the house of God and the King, leaders and all the people of Irael present there gave these.

Neh 10:38 was only talking about the tithe of tithes and not the offerings. Verse 37a talks about these offerings (firstfruits and others) and states that it goes to the chambers.

That's precisely what I had hoped you would point out - the "firstfruits" in Nehemiah and the "offerings" in Ezra.

Question: what was happening here, especially when Nehemiah 10:34 & 36 says these things were done "as it is written in the law"?

That was the basic question I wanted you to observe so that it might help us here. Granted, these terms were used - "firstfruits": but to what were they pointing? I think you're almost there.

sleekymag:

Nhe 11:1 on the other hand was talking about the people needed in Jerusalem.

1 ¶ And the rulers of the people dwelt at Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts to dwell in other cities. (KJV)

Jerusalem certainly had many inhabitants at this time; but not sufficient to preserve the city, which was now encompassed with a wall, and the rebuilding of which was going on fast. Nehemiah therefore obliged one tenth of the country people to come and dwell in it, that the population might be sufficient for the preservation and defence of the city. Ten were set apart, and the lot cast among them to see which one of the ten should take up his residence in the city. (Adam's Clark Commentary)

Lol, thanks for quoting Adam Clark. . . but would it help to think for ourselves? I'm quite shy to set my thoughts on commentaries, even though some of them are useful. However, here's a little thing to remember:

"WHY Jerusalem?"

What connected Jerusalem with all these gifts, offerings and tithes?


These two points will help us arrive at something we are almost coming now to notice more easily.

@ KunleOshob,
If at all, there have been inconsistencies, it has been with you. First of all, you were totally against tithes, and had posted several articles against it and referred to those who still practised it as gullible. At some point on this thread, you went on to say that you're not condemning it, but that it's not meant to be mandatory, which we were never against. You also talked about being only farm produce, etc, of which i asked the house a question and haven't seen any yet.  I could go on and on.

As for Pilgrim.1 and I, at least we share a solid common ground, in that, tithes are not outdated as you purportedly make it seem. There's a mystery behind it, and not all that look can see. Besides, we both also agree nothing in the NT is compulsory, so your tithes shouldnt be do or die. If at all you give, it should be from a willing heart, not a cajoled heart or murmuring heart. So trying to get clarified on the issue of % according to our individual understanding shouldn't be a problem.

sleekymag:

So trying to get clarified on the issue of % according to our individual understanding shouldn't be a problem.

Hmm. . @sleekmag, you have more grace and patience than I do. God bless you, because I'm learning.

@ pilgrim.1

Lol, thanks for quoting Adam Clark. . . but would it help to think for ourselves? I'm quite shy to set my thoughts on commentaries, even though some of them are useful.

When you brought in Neh 11:1, i had to compare my thoughts with others, and commentaries could be helpful, cos you see what different commentators say, as well as what different translations say, to help you have a deeper understanding. In a nut shell, Neh10:37-39 doesn't correlate with Neh11:1 as you put it, when talking about these offerings and tithes (except you want to enlighten me further on that).

However, here's a little thing to remember:

"WHY Jerusalem?"

What connected Jerusalem with all these gifts, offerings and tithes?

Maybe you could help me with why Jerusalem. But i know Jerusalem was the city of David, and was more like the capital of Israel, then (as in, the King and rulers of Israel dwelt there, and as a result, the chief priests also were meant to dwell there, God's temple was also there.


Besides, the scriptures are not that complicated, Num 18:24-26 explained it fair enough, and you referred us to Neh 10:38, still Neh 10:37-39 explained it easily. Yet you referred us to Ezra 8:24-30, and that came out clear it wasn't talking about tithes. I think it's not really this complicated.

@ Pilgrim.1,

Hmm. . @sleekmag, you have more grace and patience than I do. God bless you, because I'm learning.

God bless you richly my sister, cos you've been not only deep but also have been really insightful and no doubt many of us have learnt from you. However, it's always good to look critically at what we learn and weigh them accordingly.

@sleekymag
I have been very consisitent on my standing on tithes which is : It is not applicable to christians even though nothing stops any christian from giving what ever percentage of his/her income to the church he or she desires, my main grouse is the lie, fabrications and manipulations some pastors go about intimidating, coercing and cajoling christians to pay tithe.
@ pilgim.1
i am still waiting for you to tell me the difference betweeen tithes and offerings (according to the gospel of Pilgrim.1) abi you are still praying for revelation on the subject. When i get this answer, i would know how to address your subsequent posts.

@Pilgrim,

Please kindly list out why you tithe in simple terms, I have been blessed by some of your responses so far but yet to really understand your concept of tithing, as for law-based tithing, we already know the truth, no more an issue.

Can you list out 10 or more reasons why you tithe or why christians MAY tithe instead of ordinary giving/offering, please just itemize them for now, no details except bible reference, I'm sure you must have dealt with the details earlier.

If I can get the revelation of the significance under NT, then I can buid my faith accordingly.

Many thanks

@sleekmag,

sleekymag:

I think it's not really this complicated

No, it's not: in agreement I said so earlier. And that's why I asked:

      ●  What connected Jerusalem with all these gifts, offerings and tithes?

Simply: Jerusalem was the center where God had caused His Name to dwell - and it was to that place that these gifts, offerings and tithes were to be taken:

      ●  Deuteronomy 12:5-6

          But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose
          out of all your tribes to put his name there,
          even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:

          And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices,
          and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows,
          and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of
          your flocks.


      ●  Deuteronomy 12:11

         Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose
         to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that
         I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes,
         and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which
         ye vow unto the LORD.


Question: How do we know that Jerusalem was the place where God caused His name to dwell?

      ●  Psalm 76:2
          In Salem* also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.

*Salem was the same place that came to be known as Jerusalem - and from this same Salem came Melchizedek to meet Abraham (Gen. 14:18 ).

That was essentially why I took us to both Ezra 8 and Nehemiah 11:1 - because even where they were to be taken to "the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house", the center of all these things was Jerusalem. This is where Nehemiah 10:38 correlates with Nehemiah 11:1 - the mention of Jerusalem there was directly in connection with what was happening at "the house of our God". If it was at another center, it would not have been "as it is written in the law" (Nehemiah 10:34 & 36).

I hope you see my point now in connecting Ezra 8, Nehemiah 10 and the LAW?

Now, when we come to what they were "weighing" out and taking to that center (Jerusalem) where we have the house of God, the chambers, and the treasure house, we see that this all were counted precisely on one basis - the basis on what the total value for Israel's offering was, and not the case for the Levites alone. A few points:

      ●  Ezra 8 (vv. 24-35)

          Then I separated twelve of the chief of the priests, Sherebiah,
          Hashabiah, and ten of their brethren with them,

          And weighed unto them the silver, and the gold, and the vessels,
          even the offering of the house of our God, which the king,
          and his counsellors, and his lords, and all Israel there present,
          had offered:

          I even weighed unto their hand six hundred and fifty talents of silver,
          and silver vessels an hundred talents, and of gold an hundred talents;

          Also twenty basons of gold, of a thousand drams; and two vessels of
          fine copper, precious as gold.

          And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy
          also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God
          of your fathers.

          Watch ye, and keep them, until ye weigh them before the chief of
          the priests and the Levites, and chief of the fathers of Israel,
          at Jerusalem, in the chambers of the house of the LORD.

         So took the priests and the Levites the weight of the silver, and the gold,
         and the vessels, to bring them to Jerusalem unto the house of our God.

         . . . Now on the fourth day was the silver and the gold and the vessels
         weighed in the house of our God by the hand of Meremoth the son of
         Uriah the priest; and with him was Eleazar the son of Phinehas; and with
         them was Jozabad the son of Jeshua, and Noadiah the son of Binnui, Levites;

         By number and by weight of every one: and all the weight was written at that time.

        Also the children of those that had been carried away, which were come
        out of the captivity, offered burnt offerings unto the God of Israel,
        twelve bullocks for all Israel, ninety and six rams, seventy and seven lambs,
        twelve he goats for a sin offering: all this was a burnt offering unto the LORD.

I had to quote these verse to show what exactly was happening - that during the time of the return of the remnant from captivity, it is clear that these issues were done as interpreted by the leaders (Nehemiah 8:2 & 8 ) precisely from the LAW.

      ●  Question: But what then happens to the firstfruits?

      ●  Nehemiah 10:35 & 37
      And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees,
      year by year, unto the house of the LORD: And that we should bring the firstfruits
      of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and
      of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes
      of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in
      all the cities of our tillage.

Just out of curisoity at this point, sleekmag, how did the Law speak of the "firstfruits of the ground" and of all trees, etc?

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@ pilgim.1
i am still waiting for you to tell me the difference betweeen tithes and offerings (according to the gospel of Pilgrim.1) abi you are still praying for revelation on the subject. When i get this answer, i would know how to address your subsequent posts.

Lol, I was going to do so in ernest after we have shared light on the present concerns - one step after the other, remember? But if you're waiting for a "gospel of Pilgrim.1", I am most sorry to disappoint you O! There is no such gospel preached to save your skin or pocket. Shalom.

Hi again, @sarmy,

sarmy:

@Pilgrim,

Please kindly list out why you tithe in simple terms, I have been blessed by some of your responses so far but yet to really understand your concept of tithing, as for law-based tithing, we already know the truth, no more an issue.

Can you list out 10 or more reasons why you tithe or why christians MAY tithe instead of ordinary giving/offering, please just itemize them for now, no details except bible reference, I'm sure you must have dealt with the details earlier.

If I can get the revelation of the significance under NT, then I can buid my faith accordingly.

Many thanks

That question is a most helpful and pointed one - and if you bear with me, I'll add that to the several things I would like to deal with subsequently. Yes, I ahve highlighted a few of them; and was hoping to open a new thread to share on 'Why I Tithe'; but was advised against it by a few friends. All the same, I'll keep within this thread and give you the 15 reasons why I tithe, and the features that lead me to follow that ministry under the new covenant and not under the stipulations of the old covenant. Can you bear with me to come to hat point soon?

Blessings.

pilgrim.1:

@KunleOshob,

Lol, I was going to do so in ernest after we have shared light on the present concerns - one step after the other, remember? But if you're waiting for a "gospel of Pilgrim.1", I am most sorry to disappoint you O! There is[b] no such gospel [/b] preached to save your skin or pocket. Shalom.

No such gospel i would have thought all your posts were coming from that "gospel" you have enough posts here based on your ideas of what tithes is that is enough to write a whole epistle.

KunleOshob:

No such gospel i would have thought all your posts were coming from that "gospel" you have enough posts here based on your ideas of what tithes is and is not to write a whole epistle.

You too funny! Where you see such an epistle? Should sharing ideas (as everyone else is doing - including yourself) then become "an epistle" in themselves? Afterall, no be you write epistle for another page where someone quote the whole book?

This was your confession - "The article you posted was originally written by me". . .

. . and people have to go back and see the full length epistle according to "apostle KunleOshob"!! Na you confess yourself say na you "originally" write am!

Chill bro. . na small-small we go land for de matter. Shalom.

@Pilgrim.1
I am not an apostle and i am just a humble minister of God sharing the truth about God's word(undiluted) from the scriptures with fellow christians. My calling is to discover and share the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which is no longer being shared in churches today.

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
I am not an apostle and i am just

a humble minister of God

sharing the truth about God's word(undiluted) from the scriptures with fellow christians. My calling is to discover and share the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which is no longer being shared in churches today.

wonders shall never end. i like this kind of humility. i am sure you love it very much. true gospel for criticism and dis-unity land.

>snip<


^{Lord, help me. . I was just about saying something before I saw the the above!}

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
I am not an apostle and i am just a humble minister of God sharing the truth about God's word(undiluted) from the scriptures with fellow christians. My calling is to discover and share the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which is no longer being shared in churches today.

Amen, bro.
You know why I always refer to you as 'lovable brother' - u tink say e easy to achieve?

Please Pilgrim, go ahead and list reasons why you pay tithe today

Since we now share common ground that all pretentions by todays pastor's refrence especially to Malachi (which is essentially tied to the LAW) is no longer applicable to christians

pilgrim.1:

Amen, bro.
You know why I always refer to you as 'lovable brother' - u think say e easy to achieve?

As christians we have all been called into the ministry of the gospel of Christ, it is our collective duty to spread to gospel to all nations of the earth. When i said i am a minister of God, i did not mean an "ordained" minister. That not withstanding God has revealed himself to me and i feeled compelled to share what i have learnt about the true gospel of our Lord Jesus christ.

KunleOshob:

As christians we have all been called into the ministry of the gospel of Christ, it is our collective duty to spread to gospel to all nations of the earth. When i said i am a minister of God, i did not mean an "ordained" minister. That not withstanding God has revealed himself to me and i feeled compelled to share what i have learnt about the true gospel of our Lord Jesus christ.

Amen again, bro.

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:

Please Pilgrim, go ahead and list reasons why you pay tithe today

I shall do so soon: what's the rush?

I know some of the reasons why you guys don't believe in tithing are based on one issue - because of the LAW, not so? If I'm far wrong, please correct me - then I shall come back and share a few matters of the heart with you before i list why I tithe. If there's any other reason why you don't tithe, it may be helpful to list them out as well.

Ovamboland:

Since we now share common ground that all pretentions by todays pastor's refrence especially to Malachi (which is essentially tied to the LAW) is no longer applicable to christians

Before you throw the LAW overboard, please think again. I have repeatedly shared that we should look at the "principles" of the Law, rather than a legalistic application of same Law. In my sharing, I would like to leave out whatever anyone is doing to abuse these matters - rather, my basic concern would be what the Word teaches us, and not the distractions of what men have turned it into. I'm not given to castigating any man - they will answer to the Lord: and so shall we all. I would like to mind my own business and concentrate on what Christ has called us to do, and not go about calling people names.

I hope you commit these matters to heart so we can all share on more healthy and enabling environment.

Bless you always.

@pilgrim and others

I need you to pray 4 me
not well in my body, I've been down since morning.

thanks

@affee,

". . .and anon they tell Him of her" (Mark 1:30)

Dear, you are healed in Jesus' Name.
Lord Jesus, thank you for this blessing - Your Name is above every illness;
and Your love will fill affee and give strength to every cell of her body. Amen.

It is well with you, affee. . fear not.

Jesus Christ makes you whole my dear sister. i pray in the name of Gods holy Son Jesus that you be healed in Jesus name

God bless you

Good evening all,

I earlier summarised my position on tithing thus;

1.Tithing is not mandatory, but it is permissable - and like most opponents, my opposition is to those that would make it mandatory for Christians and warp scripture to do so - not tithing per se.

2. I believe that in the fullness of NT living, it is redundant and with time one would see that. But why and who can force understanding on people who do not yet see that? Hence, Christian liberty.

3. It cannot be justified/enforced under the law and the prophets or based on something else and then enforced by same.

4. Abrahams sole instance was/is not a pattern or ordinance. Abrahams faith is the only pointer for NT Christians.

5. Tithing confers no distinct or unique blessings over one who simply gives - whatever amount/frequency - with the right posture.

6. I don't actually agree that God is obliged to respond to our giving in any form on the basis of some set pattern or return.

7. I don't believe that God ranks giving or distinguishes giving types or gifts/offerings and then responds accordingly.

8. NT giving is predicated on need, also noting;

9. the offering/worship element - #1459 - but in the NT dispensation I see no real examples of that, although I stand to be corrected.

10. Following on from 8 & 9, I'D be really interested to hear how one would worship God directly with any physical gift in this dispensation. New thread?


I will now briefly outline my views on NT Christian giving;

1. There are only two reasons to give, the first predicated on need and the second based on a desire to bless and honour God. One may say worship, no problem!

2. However, both reasons are valid worship responses, especially when motivated by a good and cheerful heart. Living out life to do His will, through His power, under His grace and to His glory, means every act is one of worship.

3. Even if one gives as a “blessing to God”, it’s ultimate end will be to minister to need, so while I note and will not quibble over the two reasons, the final employ of any “giving” will be to minister to need.  Hence, I may say all giving is predicated by need to keep it simple, with my first point as a rider.

4. Giving is not classified, although it may be described using different terminology, including but not limited to; giving; offering, blessing, sacrifice, gift, etc. Start to worry if it’s called salary, wages, stipend, remuneration etc and/or is given for “ministry” . Worry even if it’s called any of the first listing and is predicated on ministry”

5. There are different needs to - all pertaining to physical wellbeing and ministering – give too, different times to give, different constituencies to give too, different degrees of giving, but there are not “types of giving”. And there are certainly not different types of giving that attract different blessings or returns or negative blessings or returns for non-compliance. No giving is legislated for or mandatory.

6. Giving is a ”grace” – one of the many facets of grace – which a Christian grows into and which enables the Christian to give even to a sacrificial degree. One of the main distinctions from giving by law.

7. I don’t believe God ascribes absolute or relative value to the gift. It’s is acceptable based on heart and posture. No part of any giving is considered more hallowed or sanctified or holy or indeed needs to be or is “spiritualised” in any way. As believers focus on the Giver, The Lord also see’s the heart of the giver.

8.  Giving can take many forms.  Often it will be monetary, but it can be time, counsel, fellowship, food and as we all know and acknowledge, things one can’t always apply a monetary value too, such as a life. Let’s thank God for His “indescribable gift”.

9. There is no NT mandate or ordinance – be that as law or institution – or anything that can be gleaned from the scriptural narrative that would suggest that at that time, or in the future, money would be required for temples, salaried or professional clergy or in any way to build or support the “church” as an organisational entity.

10. There is no hidden mystery to giving.


God bless you as you seek and live for Him.
TV

@sleekmag,

Good afternoon, and I hope your day has turned out brilliantly.

sleekymag:

Sorry to still bother you Pilgrim.1, but I'm still not satisfied with your 1% explanations. Looking critically at Nehemiah 10:38, when we start from verse 37-39, we'll see this:

Having considered this matter of 1% carefully, I should indeed allow for love and understanding to prevail, and thereby not push my own views to overwhelm anyone. Although we all have differing persuasions about this 10%, 1% or any other percentage and we can all share our views on them with clear pointers, I would like to appreciate yours - so we can move forward. This is why I try to maintain that at the end of the day, it is not my views (expressed however so strongly) that should carry the day. Someone has said that we should all be persuaded in our own hearts whatever we finally hold. Advice from other friends offline persuade me to to acquiesce, even though there are many sources that hold the 1% persuasion.

More grace to you, sleekmag. . enjoy.

Dear TV01,

Good afternoon, and thanks for your summaries yet again. I would like to make a few comments thereto; but let me offer help to your earlier posts and enquiries and then come back to your recent reposte.

Let me begin by outlining why I worry about these needless repetitions in yours by highlighting a few things in one of your summations:

TV01:
A true revelation would be bourne out by scripture. Easily, logically, unambiguously, obviously even. After it had been pointed out and it would leave no room for gainsaying. If by sound scholarship, again any postulation would stand on it's own merits, fit well with scripture and not jar with other doctrine.

True, but you already know that the highlighted part of your quote is precisely what some of us have followed in our several entries – particularly in mine, which were given in the links I posted to you earlier. Is there anything I had missed in such elements as:

- bourne out by Scripture?

- Easily?

- Logically?

- Unambiguously?

- Obviously even?

And after I laid issues out precisely as such, I had waited this long before making this reply – and I don't remember anyone coming back to gainsay them, other than those who were opposed to tithing coming back incessantly to argue from personal disaffection that it could not be so; even so, we could not read them following your recommendations as above. When I asked that they calmed down and go directly to Scripture and show that those things which I pointed out were not actually written in those verses, I didn't see them oblige that simple request. Dismissing matters out of hand is easy to do - but it is never easy to go directly into Scripture and show just where, how and why they find grounds for what they argue.

TV01:
And I don't think balance is a big issue here. The discussion has not revolved around "exreme positions". It's the meaning, basis, validity, practicality, use, scriptural narrative, examples, form and many other things that have been chewed on and mulled over on this thread.

The "meaning". . . "basis". . ."validity". . ."practicality". . . "use". . . "scriptural narrative". . ."examples" etc., . . Did I miss any one of those elements in all the links I posted to you earlier?

Even recently, when you posited that: "What hallows it, is the attitude (heart/spiritual sincerity)"; my answer was "What 'hallows' it is not the heart of the giver - it is the value God Himself places on it (Leviticus 27:30 & 32)." If I was wrong, it would have been more appreciated that you went back to Scripture, check out Leviticus 27:30 & 32 and then show me that ‘No, it was not so written in those verses’ as I might have assumed - and then we would have checked it out together. But rather than do so, others who have not settled down to study these matters for themselves only came back being facetious about the whole point.

See, what amazes me in all this is that, just when I see these needless repetitions and teasings making the rounds, I consequently offered that it might be best for me to take a chill at the time - so that if anyone cared enough, they would go back calmly and re-read those issues where I addressed them in some depth. Sadly, just about this turn was when all these remarks are being made about awaiting "this revelation/insight/scholarship piece/teaching" - like I had not even touched them at all! Then what were those links leading to - or were they just blank links that opened blank pages?

The points are clear and do not need endless repetitions. Since last year 2007, I have consistently noted that tithes are not made mandatory for anyone under the new covenant; and people can tithe as they are led by God's Spirit rather than by any arguments. Those who haven't seen this point should not go about slurring tithers as manipulators, thieves, and liars - and that was why I had to post the exact kind of extremum from those who are sending tithers to HELL just because they are opposed thereto (I’ve even read and heard worse from them).

When antagonists called others liars and manipulators, none of your adulators called them to check – we all left them running free with that same slur unchecked. Only now that I’ve shown just one example of an antagonist to tithers is when you’re offering that “the discussion has not revolved around extreme positions”. It’s like all of a sudden, you guys quickly took notice and acquiesced to the same things I and a few others have been pointing out about this matter.

You may complain about ‘balance’ in this discussion; but it seems to me that dismissing matters out of hand without first checking them out is hardly a healthy way of seeking a dialogue. Not once have I noticed that you took the effort to go back to those verses I offered and point out that the things highlighted there were not stated in those references. When we keep repeating these clichés as you did, are we getting anywhere at all – or has this now become a game that often is resorted to when the interest to look into the Word has melted away? If the latter, what then is the point of our even going on at all to discuss anything?

However, I trust that the interest in this matter affects us all in more ways than we can count; and that is why people have continued to show those interests in the many questions, critiques, commentaries, highlights and balance they offer.

Consequently, I shall try and outline some answers to another helpful issue you raised. Cheers.

@TV01,

TV01:
Why don't Catholics, Anglicans, JW or others pay tithe

Here are a few answers to consider about whether or not those Christian denominations pay tithes.

Christian Denominations on Tithing

Disclaimer!! Please note that these are merely representations of some large denominations, and views expressed here do not necessarily mean that adherents of each denominational tradition follow the same rule. For instance, there are many Catholic denominations; and views expressed here may not be taken as standard and applicable for every other Catholic denomination. This also is the case for those who describe themselves as non-denominational. Another thing: that I offer these highlights is not to mean that they represent my persuasions on tithing; rather, they are to be taken as answers to the question: “Why don't Catholics, Anglicans, JW or others pay tithe” – and readers are to see for themselves what the case may be.


1. Catholics

From: Order and Legion of Saint Michael –

Philosophy and Principle of Tithing:
●  Principles and Philosophy of Tithing
●  Four Principles of Tithing
●  The Biblical Basis of Tithing
●  Additional Principles of Tithing

        ____________________________________


From: St. Joseph’s Church (York, Pennsylvania) –

Tithing
●  Tithe Comes from the Bible
●  Today, In Our Time
●  What Is A Tithe?
●  How Does Tithing Work?
●  Are There Benefits to the Person Who Tithes. . ?
●  What Do We Do Now?


Question: do Catholics tithe or not?

It is not in my place to answer that question for them. However, from all considerations, some Catholics tithe,  some others do not but rather give in other manner. There doesn’t seem to be a fast and dry rule in Catholicism to tithe. One reference to this is found here on an online document that takes its references from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994):

            Principles of Giving

            The tithe (10%) as a standard and a promise of blessing,
            given to the spiritual leadership. . .

            Baltimore Catechism on the Six Requirements of Church Membership. .

            297. By the commandment to contribute to the support of the Church
            is meant that each of us is obligated to bear his fair share of the financial
            burden of the holy See, of the diocese and of the parish. .

Certainly, only Catholics themselves can share with us on what exactly their own particular Catholic churches or Catholic denominations teach on this matter.


2. Anglicans

          United Anglican Church – FAQ Online:

           What is the standard of Stewardship?
           The standard of stewardship in the United Anglican Church
           is the Biblical tithe.

          _______________________________________

           Anglican Journal

           Use of Electronic Tithing

_______________________________________

          Anglican Church International Communion:

         ‘Only a voluntary tithe is required.
          If a tithe can not be given it should be noted.’

         _______________________________________

        Archives of the Episcopal Church:

        Title: Affrm the Tithe As the Standard of Giving
        Legislative Action Taken: Concurred As Amended
        Final Text:
        Resolved, the House of Bishops concurring,
        That the tithe be affrmed as the minimum standard of giving
        for Episcopalians; and be it further
        Resolved, That we Deputies and Bishops do hereby
        pledge ourselves to tithe, or to work towards tithing,
        as a minimum standard of our own giving and of our witness
        in the world; and be it further
        Resolved, That we do call all of the Church
        to join us in accepting the biblical tithe as the minimum
        standard of Christian giving.