tayod,

elementary reasoning?

TayoD:

babs787,

Since you are unable to understand my simple explanations, can you just go through the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians and tell us what you understand by it. That way, I can begin to understand your elemenatry reasoning and accord you such consideration in my future replies.

And by the way, the Bible can only be understood in line with other scriptures. So telling me to explain a passage to you without referncing relevant scriptures is a mere waste of time. If you choose not to read the bible in the way it admonishes you to, then you are just wasting your time opening those sacred pages.

my honourable professor,
u cant even a simple organisational chart or should i say organogram put up by your brother. though i may have elementary reasoning but my elememtary reasoning surpasses yours.

if i had asked you to explain only the one on the head of christ is God, u would have give me one excuse or the other but i asked you to explain from the woman in which u failed woeefully.

from the explanation u gave to the issue of woman to man, why dont u apply same to issue of christ and God since it refers t the same statement.

u claimed that HE IS GOD BUT U FAILED TO DEFEND U CLAIM

having failed in defending your claim that God is also Jesus from the earlier verse, maybe u can explain the below verse too
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

also i need ur answer to the below (take time to answer them one after the other)

1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception - a process they compare to artificial insemination!

2. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?

3. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).

4. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).

6. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?

7. Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?

8. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).

9. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:. Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?

10. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).

11. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.

12. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).

13. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).

14. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father, or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).

15. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).

16. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?

17. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?

REMEMBER, AN ANSWER FOR EACH QUESTION.

@babs747,

Whuile you may be confused by all thsoe verses, WE are absolutely not. Not only are you trying to understanding by logic what the bible declares can only be understood by faith, you are definitely on the wrong path when you try to explain a scripture only by that scripture.

I picked up a book yesterday to read.  It is titled "Mystery of the Ages" by Herbert W. Armstrong.  Reading through the Preface, the guy just echoed the same sentiment that I submitted regarding your reading of the scripture.  Here is what he has to say as regards the Bible: I learned, in this night-and-day study, why it is the most misunderstood book, even though it is the world's best-seller. the full explanation or truth of any one subject is seldom made complete and clear in any one passage.  Other portions, factors, or phases of the subject are usually contained in one or several other passages in other parts of the Bible either in the Old or New Testament. A true and full understanding of this subject is profitable only when these perhaps several other passages, scatterd throughout the Bible, are put together.  He also says in another place that: The Bible needs no interpretation because it interpretes itself. This becomes clear when one sees the various scriptures of each subject properly put together, as the Bible itself says, "here a little, and there a little" (Isa. 28:10).
So babs787, you cannot read the Bible the way you are reading it and expect to understand it. You want me to explain a passage to you while not comparing scripture with scripture. If I do that, I will only end up as confused as you are. Rather, I gave you an assignment to read up the entire passage but you came up listing more scriptures from wherever you downloaded them.

from the explanation u gave to the issue of woman to man, why don't u apply same to issue of christ and God since it refers t the same statement.

Are you under an influence that is unable to make you assimilate the things you read? Of course I applied the same principle between Christ and the Father. I said Christ has submitted His will to the Father's just as every wife is meant to submit her will to her husband, not because the husband is better or greater than her, but just so as to fulfil a divine requirement.

The answer to ALL the questions you listed are found in the in Jesus' words in John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

tayod,

i know u wont be able to answer even a single out of those posted to you cos u lack proof to back ur saying.

u accused me of picking every verse and not rading through everything. IS THAT YOUR ANSWER TO MY POST? i asked for the explanation and u r telling me anther thing.

u r comfusing yourself. from the onstart, u said jesus is God but read your post below
Are you under an influence that is unable to make you assimilate the things you read? Of course I applied the same principle between Christ and the Father. I said Christ has submitted His will to the Father's just as every wife is meant to submit her will to her husband, not because the husband is better or greater than her, but just so as to fulfil a divine requirement.

u said christ submitted his will to the father just as every wife is meant to submit to her will to her husband in order to fulfill divine law.

DOES THE YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT MADE JESUS TO BE GOD LIKEWISE MAN TO BE WOMAN?
from your statement above, it showed that man cannot be woman and vice versa, so also is God to jesus. dont have this thing up?

U said he submitted his will to the father, are u saying God submitted his will to God?.

wake up man and stop muddling and caging yourself.

U ALSO QUOTED THIS
[b]John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

if cos of this saying of jesus made him and God to be one, why dont u consider the below verse too
[/b]john 17v21: that they (disciples) all may be one, as thou, father art in me and i in thee, that they may also be one in us.

if jesus could be God as a result of that verse, he could also be disciples as a result of the above verse too.

THINK MAN AND READ OVER AGAIN.

@babs787,

You are just dancing round in circles. God has always talked to God. The Book of Genesis records God talking to Himself in teh unity of the Godhead saying: "Let Us, "

David records a conversation betwen the Godheads in Pslam 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool

In Hebrews we see the anointing of Jesus and a conversation between the Godheads again in heaven: Hebrews 1:8-11 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness F3 is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

There are many more conversations like that and Jesus praying to His Father while on earth is no different.

Of course, we are one as Christians. There is only one body of Christ: The church. There may be many parts, but only one body. Theis is well taught in the New Testament.

@Seun,

Why does God feel the need to present himself as multiple personalities? Why can't he just be himself?

The answer is simple and complex at the same time. Simple in the sense that God cannot have come to the earth in His full glory. Everyone will die if they behold Him. Even in Heaven no one can look at His face. When He came to mount Sinai, every where was thundering and quaking and the Children of isreal were fearful and wouldn't have anything to do with Him. For Him to be able to relate to us in a way we can understand, he has to come down to our level. Imagine a Professor need to teach his 4 year old kid some truth without coming down to that kid's level. The kid will only end up confused the more.

Secondly, the Bible says the earth has God given to the sons of men. It takes man to wield authority on earth and that is why God has to come in human form to be able to wield God's authority to the fullest. The devil will also make use of this principle when the anti-christ comes. Look at John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. You can see that the reason why Jesus can wield authority on earth is because he is the Son of Man.

I have tried to simplify the answer, but that is basically two reasons I can think of for now.

tayod,

huh, God talking to himself!!!

my brother, stop beating aroud the bush. u posted this
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. You can see that the reason why Jesus can wield authority on earth is because he is the Son of Man.

DIDNT U COMPREHEND THE VERSE U QUOTED?
Father gave son authority to execute judgment cos he's the son of man.

based on your post above, u would have seen clearly that father is different from son.are u still equating the two?

father gave son authority, does that mean they r same?

tayod,

i noticed that uve not been able to answer all the verses posed at you rather u gave and directed to another verse which u failed to provide explanation to.
i ask you again

If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?

If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).

Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).

If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).

If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father, or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).

Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).

babs787,

You are still here? Can you for one just accept what Jeus said by declaring "I and my Father are One." If you do, do you still think the others verses are incomprehensible?

On the cross Jesus said,
Father in to your hand i commit my spirit, before he gave up his spirit,

So my question is if he was God who was he talking to on the cross??,

TayoD:

babs787,
You are still here? Can you for one just accept what Jeus said by declaring "I and my Father are One." If you do, do you still think the others verses are incomprehensible?

,,,,,,TayoD, well done for your perseverance . But in addition, understanding can also come by simplistically explaining the different roles for him to get understanding. You've been explaining the concept of authority to him, but he does not get it because of the level of your explainations. Now, this is the fact as we know it: POSITIONALLY or in NATURE; God is One Spiritual being existing and operating in three co-equal spiritual offices or persons: (1) God the Father is the Source of all authorities and power; (2) God the Son (Jesus Christ) is the Channel of all authorities and power; and God the Holy Spirit is the Agent of all authorities and power. Water, Steam and Ice are all co-equal as H₂O in Nature.

Now a simplistic analogy of the "Functionality" hopefully will make it simple and answer all the "great" questions above : Functionally; Assume God the Father is Kanji Dam, the "Source" where all authority and power of electricity comes from; God the Son is the "Channel" or all the cables by which the 'electricity' (authority) generated from 'kanji dam' will get to us individually/home/earth; and that God the Holy Spirit is the "Agent" or the actual electric power generated from God the Father, made available to us through the Channel or cables i.e Jesus Christ. Now, the source, channel and agent are all the same God IN NATURE but manifesting FUNCTIONALY in 3 different offices (i.e source, channel and agent) that functions differently. Just as Water, Steam and Ice although all H₂O in Nature, but they Function differently as liquid, gas and solid respectively.

A simplistic application of this analogy to the various questions above should give basic understanding of nature of the awesome God; then deeper understanding of the doctrine of Salvation will reveal the purposes of the various offices of God. In fact, my daughter got it just once!!!

Thanks Havila. I am still sure the guy will come back with more questions. this time, i will refer him to your daughter

I have been following this thread closely since it's inception, but never wanted to post.  But when I saw this last post of Havila, I couldn't but comment on it.

Havila, thanks for that post.  Very perfect analogies there, especially that of the 3 states of water.

I was actually engaged in an argument with two muslim ladies at work today on this same subject.  They were even laughing at me for telling them Jesus is God, even after explaining thoroughly Gen 1:27, John 1: 1 - 5 and John 10:30 to them, and some other verses too, they were still bent on clinging on to what they've been told in their mosques.  I wasn't surprised anyway.

TayoD:

Thanks Havila. I am still sure the guy will come back with more questions. this time, i will refer him to your daughter

goodguy:

I have been following this thread closely since it's inception, but never wanted to post.  But when I saw this last post of Havila, I couldn't but comment on it. Havila, thanks for that post.  Very perfect analogies there, especially that of the 3 states of water. I was actually engaged in an argument with two,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,

@TayoD and Goodguy,
You guys are very welcome! All the Glory goes to God Almighty. In fact, TayoD is the hero in this picture. I really admire his perseverance ; and just thought I should help out with the explanation to help understanding. It has proved very useful in explaining the concept of Trinity and evangelising to muslims friends. A question which you might expect with this explanation is that: 'what about before the birth of Jesus?'. In that case, I usually then go back to using the 'process' of creation in Genesis chapter 1, the various scriptures showing the appearances of the pre-incarnate Jesus in the old testament, the scriptures showing God is an "omni-present" spirit, etc etc, to show that the Trinity is not just a New Testament concept; but it is the nature of God which has been before the begining of the ages. God bless!

DONT BOTHER URSELF ON QUOTEING BIBLES,BUT FOR GOD SAKE IF AM TOLD THAT IGNORANT PEOPLES ARE STILL LIVELY IN NIGERIA HAW COULD U CALL JESUS GOD ,HAW ON EARTH CAN U EXPECT UR CREATOR TO COME TO THE WORLD WORK FOR U CLEAN UR FOOT E.T.C. IF U CALL JESUS GOD SIMPLY because HE DID MIRACLES AND PRAYS TO U THEN WHT ARE U GONNA CALL ABRAHAM,MOSES,JESUS,MUHAMMED?U CALL THOSE ONES TOO ARE GOD ABI GOD SAID IT IN THE QURIAN AND BIBLE THAT NOBODY HAS EVER SEEN HIM SO WHY ON EARTH ARE U ALL STILL BEHAVINGTHE ELDERLY ONES AND LET DEM AL KNOW THATITS BASICALLY A KID AT LEST FOR ONES CONVINCE HAW PEOPLE ABOUT THIS MISTAKES UR VE ALL BEEN NURTURING FOR LONG IN A BOLD MANNER I SAY IT ASK OF WELL BEING IN LITTEEING

The only reason why christians are fervently "wishing" their Jesus to be God, is simply to get one over the rival religion Islam.This is nothing but an ongoing silly battle between Jesus and Muhammad.On who is greater between the two,in the peasant minds of these childlike followers of these two faiths.
It is really amusing to hear these debates from people who only have second or third hand information to base their arguements on.Very amusing indeed!

I was actually engaged in an argument with two muslim ladies at work today on this same subject. They were even laughing at me for telling them Jesus is God, even after explaining thoroughly Gen 1:27, John 1: 1 - 5 and John 10:30 to them, and some other verses too, they were still bent on clinging on to what they've been told in their mosques. I wasn't surprised anyway.

Aren't all of you who insist on the existence of Jesus/God simply 'clinging' onto what you've been told by your pastors?

Did you explain to the muslim ladies why the Bible verses you used were of any real relevance?

If it's all in the mind then how can one side ever trump the other?

@TayoD: I am very shocked that you and Havila are backslapping each other! Shameful is this attitude. Considering that you are an Engineer! Is there any trial and error in the final product of any engineering field? Unlike medicine, where they could try this drug or therapy or process and see if it works. You have to wake up from your slumber of blind faith, man. Common. Are you for real! A man is approaching a matter with clear LOGIC, you have a problem with it. The way you explain away is by blind faith? How can you an Ijebu be in this funk! You can do better. Please think.

Jesus is God. That is a pivotal statement of the Christian faith - and that is precisely the point of reference for any discussion about who He is. The problem, however, is that our Muslim friends find that statement unacceptable for the simple reason that the Qur'an denies it - because Islam is antithetical to anything "Christian". May I remind them that not even Muhammad was "logical", nor did he for one instant appeal to "clear LOGIC"; but he rather appealed to what he called "faith". If he actually was "logical", he would not have closed his eyes to the clear Biblical statements that declare the deity of Jesus Christ, such as John 1:1 and Isaiah 9:6.

And if Islam appeals more to logic than to faith, may I ask why the Qur'an still declares a polytheistic *Allah* for worship to Muslims, and not the actual monotheistic deity it purports to preach? We have asked this question dozens of times and yet not one "logical" answer has been proffered by Muslims as to how many *'Allah's* are worshipped by Muhammad's followers. When the Islamic *Allah* proclaims, "We created man", how many creators was Muhammad preaching? And how "LOGICAL" was that?

Jesus is who He claimed He is, as we find it in the Bible.

exu:

Aren't all of you who insist on the existence of Jesus/God simply 'clinging' onto what you've been told by your pastors?

No, we are clinging on to what we know; what we realized by ourselves - The Truth.

exu:

Did you explain to the muslim ladies why the Bible verses you used were of any real relevance?

Unfortunately, this issue didn't fall into any part of our peaceful argument.

exu:

If it's all in the mind then how can one side ever trump the other?

What do you mean?

olabowale:

@TayoD: I am very shocked that you and Havila are backslapping each other! Shameful is this attitude,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, A man is approaching a matter with clear LOGIC, you have a problem with it,,,,,,

'Jack-of-all-trades' Haji Olabowale,
You dont even know the meaning of backslapping, and you are talking of logic, sir. Show us any iota of logic in a bizzare faith that believe, among others, that with ablution, your sins are dripping off to the ground. Now how logical is that?, if not an opportunity to live in "antinomianism". (check your dictionary). Logic,,,dont even go there
We just presented easier analogies to aid in your understanding of the awesome omni-present, spiritual God, so what's shameful in that?, dont start pointless and docile tirades.

Yes Jesus Is 100 percent man and God.

Just as Ice Is water and Steam is water. This is a mystery you cant Understand.

Jesus is a messenger of God, The sooner you realise this the better for you all.

@Belloti,
Yes, that's true; but to believe that's all about Jesus the Christ is a product of an incomplete reasoning. He is the Message, the messenger and sender of the message. What is the message? Simple! Peace to mankind and eternal Salvation. That's why the taurat describes him as the "Prince of Peace" and the new testament figuratively describes him as the "Gospel" i.e. the Good News.
What you need for now is not "belief"; but a clear "understanding" of who is the true God, what makes him God. You can know it by looking at the birth, life, ministry, death and ressurection of Jesus. When you have some understanding, then the belief will come. But, to get the understanding, you need to know the principle of "Justice, Atonement and Mercy". Atonement is the only bridge linking Justice to Mercy. Ablutions and water dripping down your beard/body ; stoning a rock at an idol worship; walking around a rock until you get dizzy; knocking your head on the ground 50 x 5 times a day, etc can never bridge the gap between Justice and Mercy. Because they are all works and self achievements.
Now, if you are indeed a wise man, find out what really constitutes atonement for justice in any belief system.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

1st Timothy 3: 16

tayod,

babs787,

You are still here? Can you for one just accept what Jeus said by declaring "I and my Father are One." If you do, do you still think the others verses are incomprehensible?

I CAN SEE THAT U R STILL WALLOWING IN IGNORANCE. u and your cohortsfailed in answering simple question andproviding answer to simple logic.

u quoted the above for me as being the reason that made jesus to be God. if as a result of jesus saying that heand father are one made him tobe God, why not think and apply john 17v21 too, maybe it will awaken you and stop uttering more blasphemous statement.

i could remember u failed in proving explanation to first iquoted, rather u startedbeating about the bush when i told u to use the same perimeter for the two.

likewise the above statement, if jesus couldbe God as a resulf of the above statement, why not apply to the below, maybe uwill tell me then that God isalso disciples and vice versa.

john 17v21: that they (disciples) all may be be one, as thou, father art in me and i in thee, that they may also be one in us.


THE EARLIER U KNOW, THEBETTER FOR YOU.

tayod,

babs787,

You are still here? Can you for one just accept what Jeus said by declaring "I and my Father are One." If you do, do you still think the others verses are incomprehensible?

I CAN SEE THAT U R STILL WALLOWING IN IGNORANCE. u and your cohortsfailed in answering simple question andproviding answer to simple logic.

u quoted the above for me as being the reason that made jesus to be God. if as a result of jesus saying that heand father are one made him tobe God, why not think and apply john 17v21 too, maybe it will awaken you and stop uttering more blasphemous statement.

i could remember u failed in proving explanation to first iquoted, rather u startedbeating about the bush when i told u to use the same perimeter for the two.

likewise the above statement, if jesus couldbe God as a resulf of the above statement, why not apply to the below, maybe uwill tell me then that God isalso disciples and vice versa.

john 17v21: that they (disciples) all may be be one, as thou, father art in me and i in thee, that they may also be one in us.


THE EARLIER U KNOW, THEBETTER FOR YOU.

IN ADDITION,I ASKED U SOME QUESTIONS, U IGNOREDTHEM. KINDLY ANSWER MY QUESTIONS REVEREND TAYOD. NO NEED TO RUN FROM THE QUESTIONS

Desist from arguing with some folks here about the Deity of Jesus Christ, because by doing so, one may tread on the path of blasphemy. We can only pray, as humans that would realize the truth during their lifetime.

@olabowale,

@TayoD: I am very shocked that you and Havila are backslapping each other! Shameful is this attitude. Considering that you are an Engineer! Is there any trial and error in the final product of any engineering field? Unlike medicine, where they could try this drug or therapy or process and see if it works. You have to wake up from your slumber of blind faith, man. Common. Are you for real! A man is approaching a matter with clear LOGIC, you have a problem with it. The way you explain away is by blind faith? How can you an Ijebu be in this funk! You can do better. Please think.

Mmm.  Backslapping each other!!!  Na wa o.  What exactly are you trying to say here. You don't have to use big grammar that you do not understand. Just go by simple english. Remember the principle of K.I.S.S.

While I do not care for the personality of any man, I am beginning to wonder if your claim to being an engineer is genuine. How could a learned person make such an uneducated statememnt in comparing the science of medicine to engineering? Medicine, like engineering is not a trial and error affair! If you understand anything about engineering at all, then you will know that enginering is just applied science.  If you claim that the science is trial and error, what then will you call the application of that error.  

May I ask what field of Engineering you are in?  Maybe all you can discuss intelligently is just in that specific field and I can limit myself to discussing that with you.

What matter have you approached here with clear logic if I may ask?  Or who is my Antagonist on this forum that is dealing with logic? Do you digest the things you read at all before concluding that I am in christianity by blind faith? You got to be joking! I can see much more clearly than your prophet and I am thoroughly convinced of the reality of the faith in whch I stand strongly. No shaking, jesus is Lord!!!

@bab747,

Yours is a lost cause it seems. Even with clear admonision based on scriptural references on how you are meant to read the bible, you still fail to follow that pinciple and you want others to be carried in the direction of warped logic that you have bound yourself.

Others, rightly following the more elementary principle of the Word in pointing out to you the nature of the Godhead through the enlightenment supplied by nature have also being ignored by you. Romans 1: 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

If you have failed to grasp it through such elementary teaching, then I fail to see how you will understand what I say, because I only compare spiritual things with spiritual. Since you are still tied to the earth through the First Adam, I will only pray that some day, you will go beyond that and lay hold of the Spiritual through the Last Adam - Jesus Christ. And just as I said before, some of my explanations are not really directed at you because they are more elevated than you can understand, rather they are designed for those whose hearts have being enlarged to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

u quoted the above for me as being the reason that made jesus to be God. if as a result of jesus saying that heand father are one made him tobe God, why not think and apply john 17v21 too, maybe it will awaken you and stop uttering more blasphemous statement.

You remind me of those Pharisees who also accused Jesus of balsphemy for claiming Himself to be God. I'm alsways so thrilled when this kind of situation arises, it tells me that I must be having the same effect on you as Jesus had on the religious people of His days. That is a very good thing as it tells me I must be witnessing Him in the right way.

@ Olabowale,
Just in case, KISS means Keep It Simple Stupid

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

@ TayoD, Havilla, goodguy,gbade, davidylan(igwe's bro), babyosisi, et al
Wish you all the best in the coming new year, God will continue to strengthen us as we labor in the Masters vineyard.

Jesus is not God but the only son of God sent to the world to redeem our lost souls. Jesus made it clear to his deciples that there was someone greater than he who sent him and that he was doing the work according to the will of God his father. he told the people to change their lifestyles and live according to the real starndard Jehovah set for them. he made it clear that heaven was under the rule of one greater than him when he said in my fathers house there are many manssions there and when he told the anciouse mother that he had no right to decide who sits on his right or left hand side in heaven but God.He is not God but the son of God he did all those miracles with the power his father gave him not his will but the will of him who sent him.Heaven was not left vaccant when jesus came to earth because there was the supreme God sitting on the throne.there is only one God, one son and the holly spirit they are not all GODS jesus is not God but Gods son the holy spirit is not God but works by the power of God on earth when this world will end jesus says he dosent know but his father will decide. my bible makes it clear to me that Jesus is not God himself but a mesiah sent by God to save mankind.jesus himsel never claimed to be God he alwaysmade it known that he was given the power by the Supreme God to act on his behalf here on earth. the pharesees were againt him because he called himself the son of God making him have the right to act as God on earth not because he claimed to be Godhimself.

@Havila: You are going to teach me English? Funny, indeed. I limit my education to what interest me. So, your calling me a Jack of all trades, shows that I am getting under your skin. I see that you and your cohorts are very eager to attack me. But you forgot that I am a Slave of the Almighty. Having Him as my Only protector is sufficient. I do not anyone, including even an Angel and for you a mere mortal is your god! If you know, Architecture in a way is a fine art interpretation of Civil Engineering. Banking and Financing is a trading/business descipline. The later is a natural inclination of the Ijebus. You should know, if it is truly you know anything about your idol, Awolowo. With all his Law Education and political dreams, he never once left business, emercing himself in Dideolu group and his usurping gimmick over the Yorubas in his Agbonmagbe operation, resulting Cocoa House and the cooperative bank enterprises.

In your rage, you forgot that I have studied your personality. I only respondto you and people like you when I have the time and to actually be a counterlever for those who might tip over by the majic works that you are seducing the weak.

Now, if you think, critically, you will realise that Muhammad (AS), obliterated Blood sacrifice, without a purpose or with delutional hangover, like what you have in christianity. Muslims do not even kill an animal except that the primary purpose for it is food! Allah, The Almighty provides many ways to seek foogiveness and receive the rewards of belief and deeds. The Jews are stuck on work alone, whreeas the christians are stuck on blind faith. Any day, I will take a path that combine belief that is logical as in Oneness of God, with doing good work and seeking forgiveness of sins. This is different from your blind faith in the death of a person who could not save himself from the hands of his enemies, even though, he wished the would spare him. Is this person who was told this peril condition before hand and knew the consequence of his mission, yet cried out like a baby good enough to be called a believer in his own mission. Is this what you call your God? Havila, take a second look at such a man and know that such a person can not be trusted. He can not be relied upon and any one who choses him as a friend can not expect any genuine dedication.

The person I have spoken about, above is different from Isa bin mariam (AS). His Lord said that he was not crucified nor died. I do not know you nor do i sincerely desired to do so, but i want you to know that you have no support, if you worship any other than your real Creator.

Some of you said that since Emmanuel means God is with us, this makes a person bearing that name to be god. I ask, how many persons after Jesus have been named Emmanuel? In Yoruba, we have Olorun/Oluwa (Femi and many other hyphenated names along this line). Are the God, collectively or individually?

Allah says in the Qur'an that we should obey the Messenger, so that we can achievesuccess. In another part, He the Almighty says that He will not burden a soul more than the soul can handle. Yet in another, He says His Mercy is huge and covers all. So if my washing with water in a way to purify myself and as the water drips off from my body, the mountain of sins that I have committed are melting away like salt. This is the great mercy of the Merciful on me and the muslims. So that you know, ablution purifies the skin and makes it younger. By Allah, I am sure that i am younger looking than you. When you are in ablution, you will tend to avoid all kind of sins. You also perform ablution to stay in purity and in reading Qur'an and other activities. Inshort, ablution, a prelude to Salah, is part of a means for you to avoid sinful behaviours.

How much of the Elede did you eat, this week end of wrong celebration? I hope you will remember, as an Epidemiologist that the meat a sexpool of deseases. Do not start your own epidemy within yourself. There are many that will not like that you fall sick, Mr. Havila, the specialist, who ignorantly discusses what he has no understanding about. Yet wrapping it up in his 'snake oil salesman mentality' passing it up to us a wholesome.

Abeg comot. Go sidown. You see, i have a funny side too.

@MrPataki: Oga, sir. Olola pataki. This Kiss thing is for people like you. I am not conforting to you and anyone, except to my Creator. I am sure, the christmas thing and the new year madness is for your type. I am observing the Dhul-Hajj with fasting and prayer. I do have sometimes to make ministrial comments, hence, I am replying to Alagba havila in his ivory tower and you too, sir. Do not mind my calling you sir.