Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? - Business (5) - Nairaland
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| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by tkb417(m): 3:02pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
debosky:ona kan ko woja abeg no forget our carbon trading biz o as soon as 9ja open any instrument to trade it, ill holla u sharp sharp Sagamite:we be the same thing u do business advisory to collect money; i can call what i do financial advisory too so both of us be ole   |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sagamite(m): 3:18pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
Bankers are not that bad, at least aspects help generate wealth for customers. The worst are the bloody blood-suckers in the health insurance industry of America!  The VAMPIRES milk people for their money and then when the principal falls sick, the insurer looks for every possible reason not to pay. They even have a bonus incentive for their medical staff that helps them 'save' money by finding a loophole in the policy (only in a daft country that has no universal free healthcare because of irrational fair of communism and socialism). Many have died slow, painful death because of this scam.  |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sauron1: 3:35pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
Sagamite: America and 3rd world countries are the same as far as HEALTH ISSUES are concerned. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by MAURI: 5:28pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
People, I happened to stumble upon this very interesting discussion thread, I throw salute to all the contributors, the level of discussion and the inclusion of some jokes here and there is very impressive. Here comes my 2cents, as far as I understand the roots of what has come to be the credit crisis. 1. Some clever guys came together to develop some complex financial products i.e. CDO’ (Collateralised debt obligation), CDS’ (Credit default swaps). These sorts of products do have a general name: ABS (Asset backed securities). In the case of the securities instruments that led to the credit crisis, backing assets were sub-prime American mortgages. 2. In the process of transaction, there were all sorts of parties involved each with its own commercial interest. Paramount among them brokers and intermediaries. (They get paid a % of the transaction for bringing buyers and sellers in contact). Their part is done, and off they are to the Bahamas or some other sunny holiday resort, depending on the size of the deal. 3. That brings us to the rating agencies: The standard & poors and the Moodies of this world. They rate these financial products on specific variables, after which they are accorded a rating. Depending on how high some of these products are rated, that will determine their demand on the market place. 4. At some point, these products get securitized: all bundled together and brought to the exchanges to be sold to investors. Some of these rating agencies responsible for the rating of these products were also involved in this process. Most of these products were rated high by the rating agencies. Why should we expect otherwise? 5. Going back to bullet point 1, these securitised products were back by the sub-prime mortgage in the US. As long as the housing market bubble in the US grew, there was no issue, all parties were happy. I personally think the question we should have asked back then was how come the housing market in the US recorded an increase in value of between 100% & 200% in some cases in a few years time without a corresponding increase in income? A bit of ecomomics, should have revealed that there was artificial growth being created. - Mortgages/houses were sold to people who could not afford them and with high risk of default. - These mortgages were sold with an interest form known as: ARM (Adjustable rate mortgage). This is a form of interest rate you pay low rates in the beginning and can arbitrarily increase with very wide margin year-to-year. - Initially, the buyers of these mortgages were able to service their mortgages due to the low rates. And then came the increase, and then the defaulting, and then the fore-closures, and then the end of the bubble. The rest is history. 6. These resulted in the securities backed by these mortgages becoming worthless, because the assets backing them had dropped drastically in value. Banks, pensions companies and other investors had to start re-valuing their portfolios, leading to billion-dollar write-downs depending on how deep the banks were in these contaminated products. 7. It’s not up to me to point fingers, and it’s not my thing to do. I try to learn from every situation. But looking at the facts, a lot of information was grossly mis-represented by some parties for obvious reasons. Financially, the actions of these so-called smart guys has set the world backward decades financially. Leaving us with no options that to be rescued by the same people (The government/tax payers) they have seriously taken for a ride. 8. I am not going to exonerate the investors from their responsibilities either, but when people seek professional service, they do this because they are lacking the necessary professional knowledge and know-how in taking specific decisions. @ Debosky, #118 we all know by now that life isn’t fair, but if we are going to approach everything we do in life with such machiavelistic inclination, it will only bring us back to what applied in the dark ages. Further, in as much as life isn’t fair, in all regulations and international conventions, there is always a clause of proportionality. Yes, they didn’t do anything wrong according to the law, at least it’s not been proven yet. One of the reasons for this fact is because; laws dealing with complex issues are always re-active. With emphasis on re-active, these are clever guys who have attended the best universities in the world and are connected at all levels. With Enron and Worldcom, we thought we had seen the worst, after the Enron and Worldcom debacle, new regulations were created to prevent re-occurrence i.e. Soxa (Sobhan Oxley), ISDA upgrade, BASEL-II (upgrade) etc But these companies/banks do have corporate values and societal responsibilities. Not talking about the ethical and moral responsibilities they have towards the society. When one of the most terrible crimes in human history (slavery) was perpetuated, it wasn’t wrong according to a lot of laws, but that does not make it right. I am out of time, this topic has my interest, and I find all the contributions very interesting, Thought I’d shed my light, I know I should expect, comments, criticism etc. Will only make the discussion more interesting as long as it remains civil as it has been so far. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by paddylo1(m): 5:38pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
Here comes my 2cents^^^^^^^^ ol boy mr Mauri, NO LONG THING. . abeg. . dis wan don pass 2c now. . . |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by debosky(m): 5:40pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
No one is determining 'right' and 'wrong' here - the bankers (in the UK) are not self regulated - the FSA has a responsibility to do that. If an agency or authority fails to set 'fair' laws (as society or the government of the day perceives them to be) then you CANNOT blame the bankers for benefiting under such as system. MAURI: I agree - their corporate value is to make profit, and their societal responsibilities are to ensure that the profits are made in line with the law, and they help out the rest of society as they deem fit, not according to some socialist or capitalist or marxist agenda, but according to the views of the ones who own/run the bank. Maybe the laws are not right and need to be fixed, but that cannot be the problem of the bankers - regulators have for too long sat on their hands hoping everything will sort itself out - and it hasn't. Companies will do what is necessary to survive, and making profits are integral to that - the responsibility lies with the regulators and governments to define the playing ground that these institutions can operate on and what will be deemed acceptable or unacceptable.
It doesn't make it right, but let me give an analogy. I own a ship and the most beneficial way of earning income at the time of slavery was to hire out my ship to slave traders who were backed by the government so I can feed my family. The individual involved here cannot make the decision on what is 'right' or wrong outside of the framework set out by the nation/state. To do so will imply putting yourself at a disadvantage, without making any change or impact on the overall situation.
We all have different views for sure and mine is very clear - regulate the bankers as you deem fit, within the accepted norms of human rights, self determination, democracy and all the other basics ground rules by which society operates. Once that is done, anyone falling foul of that must be punished - it's as simple as that. Expecting bankers to do the 'right' thing is like playing a football match without a referee and expecting the game to be without incident and everyone agreeing. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sagamite(m): 5:43pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
MAURI: When the central focus is money and nothing else, humans with their bravado (especially men) operating in a capitalist environment and with the embedded capitalist mentation would throw corporate values and societal responsibilities out of the window. Pure factual logic. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by jaybee3(m): 5:52pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
why is it that human beings are just bloody built to always remember the bad? Compare the impact that action of these bankers prior/after the credit crunch do on world economies How many meltdown have we had in the past 20years and how many overnight millionaires were born during same period due to their direct/indirect actions |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by tkb417(m): 6:25pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
jay bee:add this to deboskys first post brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they have forgotten how they made millions through these bankers now the crash has come, the bankers shld be jailed na wa |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sagamite(m): 6:44pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
jay bee: tkb417: Some few made millions. For every winner, there is a loser. But that is by the way. As I said earlier this year in another thread, financial muscle of a country is not the best determinant of success, and more often than not, people make the error of focusing too much on this. What is important is the happiness of the majority populace. I am not too keen on the US where people make a lot of dough, but work endless hours (sometimes on multiple jobs), have only 10 days annual leave and even have number of sick days restricted (if you fall sick above this, you don't get paid), have no healthcare system, are leveraged to the hilt on loans (hence paying multiple more than the value of the things they enjoy), quality higher education university cost is prohibitive and the citizens are usually a bag of miserable and cranky gits. But, hey, they make money. I would by far prefer to live in Sweden, Spain, France or Italy. In Italy, business shut down for about 2 hours everyday as people go home to go and have lunch. I found this out when me and my buddies went on holiday to Italy and wanted to use the bank, when we were told why it was closed, we all looked at each other and broke into a group laugh because such ease in life was a beautiful contrast to the huff and puff of London. And the girls were hotter. My friend in France is always on some holiday or the other when she calls me. I asked her how she gets so much time to travel, she told me she has 53 days off each year. Life is more than about money. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sauron1: 6:51pm On Dec 11, 2009 |
tkb417: It's not only the government that made money from the boom. . . . . Consumers were able to get 110% mortgage deals, unsecured loans and stacks of credit cards. Even a tramp drives a Beema in the UK when the going was good but of course. . . . .people don't remember the good times.  |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by chika98: 3:10am On Dec 12, 2009 |
Sagamite: I was also shocked when I found out about this as well. Europe is far better than the US when it comes to things like that. Let's not talk about our healthcare system and how much that is such a mess. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sagamite(m): 8:29am On Dec 12, 2009 |
chika98: A Nigerian girl I used to see was born and bred in Italy but moved to UK at 15. Both her parents are Nigerians and she told me that when she was growing up, her parents never had to worry about nanny or childcare. In Italy, when the parents had something to do, all they had to do is to just take the kids to the house of any neighbour to help look after the kids. That to me is just pure soul. Japan that has the second biggest economy in the world and money flushing in and out, but they have a high stress life which is an ingredient of their high suicide rate. Hell No, will I ever contemplate living there. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by 4Play(m): 8:41am On Dec 12, 2009 |
Do bankers deserve their pay? In respect of high end bankers in the UK/US, the answer is no. These people are making money due to state guarantees and virtually free credit because of the mess they caused in the first place. A banker whose livelihood is a product of state subsidy shouldn't be earning millions. Never mind the shareholders who have been stuffed. Imagine Barclays declaring 1p a share dividend while sharing out multi-billion pound bonuses. The way to get round this is for regulators to require banks to hold more capital relative to the amount of risk they take. Ultimately, it's up to the shareholders to do something about the compensation culture. It's all right if a private company dishes out bonuses but ridiculous for publicly traded banks depending on state subsidy to be dishing out bonuses. Probably, the most important case to made against the bonus culture is that it encourages excessive risk taking which leads to financial collapse or rather, near collapse, as the 'generous' taxpayer will always be there to foot the bill. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by ADint(m): 6:27pm On Dec 13, 2009 |
The huge bonuses being paid to bankers currently and in the recent past is simply a HUGE CON and outright fraud in some cases! The world has always had bankers (and bonuses) and banking is an age old profession but, the massive multi-million bonus packages of today are a more recent invention by smart, intelligent, highly educated, politically savvy, overtly greedy and unconscionable bankers with the active passivity of governments and other custodians of public and private funds. This has been achieved through the creation of highly complex, 'innovative' financial and investment products and services, outright misinformation, misjudgement (deliberate), incompetence (also deliberate), market hype, artificial markets and sublime insider dealing activities. Most of these activities have been described recently as 'socially useless activities' by Lord Turner of the FSA in the UK (wonder where his voice was prior). Banks and bankers are crucial to the economy but, the more recent trend towards more and more involvement in 'socially useless activities' at great potential loss to others and great potential gain to themselves poses grave financial danger for the banks and the economy at large. Majority of the more recent activities of banks and bankers are 'Zero-sum games' - these create no value/wealth but designed to redistribute wealth from one party to another party without any increase in the overall original wealth/investment - of course the main beneficiaries being the banks and bankers! |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sagamite(m): 8:03pm On Dec 13, 2009 |
ADint: Ye! . . . . . Ye! . . . . Ye! . . . . . . . .Yeeeeee! O sorry, guys, I meant "Oush"! Make I steal some firasees from that write-up that resonated subconciously in my mind but my lack of education in Ingleesh no allow me conjure. intelligent highly educated overtly greedy unconscionable active passivity of governments and other custodians of public and private funds highly complex, 'innovative' outright misinformation market hype artificial markets sublime insider dealing activities at great potential loss to others great potential gain to themselves Zero-sum games - - these create no value/wealth but designed to redistribute wealth from one party to another party without any increase in the overall original wealth/investment - of course the main beneficiaries being the banks and bankers! These are some of the things I was bothered with when I opened this thread as I have not seen a correlating [to bankers' own bonus culture] ROI from the markets for the most active and biggest participants and contributors of funds (at risk) to the markets - the pension funds. As the bankers distribute millions to themselves, I am not yet seeing pensioners that have become well-off from the funds they put in the markets. But the bankers even distribute huge bonus even in years where money is lost as, according to them and their industry, they have to give this to keep their [loss-making] "talents" from being poached. The industry is very complex (by design and naturally) that it is hard to monitor it by the government without huge investment of tight and limited public funds that would be infelicitous I just wan blow grammar na, ki lo de and for their customers to understand and challenge effectively or confidently (as their middlemen would not fight the system on their behalf). And spurred by the greed of man, these western bankers have taken people for a ride as there is no ounce of social responsibility culture embedded in their ways of working, rather severe avarice is the pervading norm. One aspect for potential deep analysis for the MBA thesis for awon MBAers This zero-sum gaming was the reason I kept saying "real money" and "chimeras" earlier and potential personal gains was why I warned, in another thread earlier this year, that Lagos State government engage very intelligent people not Obesere civil servants when working in partnership with bankers on project financing the infrastructural revolution of the state through PPPs. When I hear of some banker being paid hundreds of millions at a bank or hedge fund, I don't think talent, I think "insider trading". That is hundreds of millions, not the ones that make a few milions |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by tkb417(m): 7:25am On Dec 14, 2009 |
ADint:some blantant red herrings that has got no economic basis i'm 100% sure the bankers that are engaged in "socially useless activities" are regulated. it can only make sense if the regulatory authorities will read ur post and gird thier loins in order to stem these activities u have enumerated But if nothing can be done by these people, then these activities are rather "economically viable activities as against what you called them No capitalist goes to the market thinking of being responsible to the society. if capitalism is heinous as you have described, try socialism |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sagamite(m): 11:10am On Dec 14, 2009 |
tkb417: *Shakes violently as body goes into convulsion as he reads bolded* Nein, Al zose zat practis ziz disgraseful luf vor money vhen ve takes over ze guvernment vuld be sent to a konsentration kamp - SS Oberstgruppenfurher of ze Sagamu Branch of ze Kommunist Party of Nigeria Here is my position on capitalism and socialism: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-280487.96.html#msg4033406 When I get the time, I will detail how the crisis occurred and we can discuss who to blame the most as the blame is distributable. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by netotse(m): 1:13pm On Dec 14, 2009 |
Sagamite:ja mein Führer! this thread has been very instructive. . .in fact let me just state one of the things i've learnt on this thread 1. One of the ways to ensure that a thread remains cilvil and on-point is to populate the thread with strictly womanisers(i swear i'm the only non-womaniser that has posted on the thread. . .scouts honour!). |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by eldee(m): 3:34pm On Dec 14, 2009 |
netotse: I know . . . it's easy for womanisers to get along Saron, Tkb, Sagamite, Chamotex, Debosky, Jaybeee . . . this is NLWA |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by stede(m): 4:41pm On Dec 14, 2009 |
debosky:they deserve it, because they use all the time @ the bank, i.e bank job is time & life consuming |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by ADint(m): 5:10pm On Dec 14, 2009 |
tkb417: Yes they are - so also are casinos! |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sauron1: 5:22pm On Dec 14, 2009 |
eldee: Jesus Wept!!!! |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by 4Play(m): 8:35pm On Dec 14, 2009 |
tkb417: The fact that a certain kind of activity happens in society with no or minimal regulations doesn't make it socially useful. I can think of an infinite number of examples. The reality is that until the 2008 meltdown, the regulators didn't appreciate the wider social implications of bank's excessive risk taking blowing up. Many activities, usually the most lucrative, of hedge funds and investment banks such as leveraged speculation on a wide array of arcane instruments such as credit derivatives have little social utility. Tell me, what is the social utility of a CDO? The fact that some people make money from this doesn't make it any less useless for society at large. You speak of capitalism, if the consequences of these kinds of speculation is state intervention, as we have seen, it obviously doesn't foster capitalism. |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by No2Atheism(m): 2:21am On Dec 15, 2009 |
@topic I would prefer to tackle the topic from the point of saying: - No they do not deserve it . . . - The mere fact that Banks and some Investment firms required bailout shows that it means the so called "profits" made by those Banks and Investment firms in the past were not real. It hence shows that the bonuses and inflated salaries paid to the Bankers on the basis of those profits are likewise fraudulent, cus common sense dictates that if those profits were real, then the concerned bank or investment firm would not have needed to be bailed out in the first place. - It is an open secret that most highly educated financial gurus simply can't explain the current complicated schemes such as Derivatives that are being used to make money in the West. This is simply because its either thsoe schemes are fraudulent and hence people are scared to publicly say it (hence they call it complicated) or they are simply senseless and inplausible that most people simple cannot risk their reputations to explain it. - One simple rule is that: IF A BUSINESS IS SO COMPLICATED THAT YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT, THEN THE MOST LIKELY EXPLANATION IS THAT ITS FRAUDULENT. - So called derivatives are difficult to explain simply because I believe they are intentionally meant to be difficult to explain. . .otherwise how would bankers be able to justify using them to make immoral money. - Bankers do not actually provide physical goods and services, instead they make money through either: 1. Lending. 2. Keeping other people's money and then charging fees for keeping other people's money 3. Investment in other people that produce physical goods and services. 4. Mafia protection money aka Insurance. 5. Price fixing and manipulation in commodities. 6. Cooking the books. . . 7. Basically creating money out of thing air. . . - This is because the most legitimate way of making money is either if you sell a physical good or you sell a physical service. . . - A significant number of bankers are just merely shifting money around . . .and committing immoral but legalised money tricks (that would have been considered to be financial crimes a few centuries ago). . . that do not really result in sale of either physical goods and services. - Bankers are known to engage in artificial price fixing of goods and services hence increase their profit margin, by fixing the market. - Most bankers are young cus the reality is that its difficult for a matured and moral person (with a conscience) to remain a banker cus sooner or later they are faced with two options i.e. they either resign to safe their conscience or continue and then become sadists as a result of years of legal but fraudulent transactions (The reason why I find it difficult to reconcile the idea of a christian wealthy Nigerian banker - "Christian" + "Wealthy" Banker simply do not mix). - The very foundation of banking itself is based on deception i.e. using other people's money to make money while transfering most of the risk to the owner of the money and merely sharing the profit amongst themselves. . . e.g. Wall Street continues to get bonuses while main stream America continues finance the bail out. - It takes a significant lack of conscience for someone to actually succeed as a Professional Banker . . . the fact is that you simply cannot hope to be a successful banker or investment specialist while still having a conscience. . . it simply cannot happen. Common sense shows that unless you can actually produce a unique commodity or service that people physical buy, its difficult to be rich (without doing something fraudulent), hence it raises the question as to how bankers get paid for doing nothing other than create profits out of thin air. - Lending and Insurance are one of the most non-violent but heartless areas of financial industry, where bankers (single name that I am using for invesment bankers, normal bankers, insurers and all of them put together) simply make money by picking on the legal and financial naivety of their clients. - Personally, I would never pay any form of insurance if I can legally get away with it . . . simply because the very nature of insurance itself is fraudulent. If you can give someone money to insure your business and property, why not pay yourself with to insure it yourself so that when you need the money you can actually retrieve the money. Insurance companies are just like a legalised mafia that is forcing people to pay for protection that is (in most cases) never provided when the actual problem actually occurs. The US health industry is one example. - Africans are smart, hence the reason why insurance business is not really profitable in Africa, cus Africans know that its stupid for someone to be paying someone to insure a property for something that occurs by chance despite that there is no guarantee that the person being paid would actually even provide the insurance pay-out when you actually need it. - Investments in shares and use of insider knowledge to make profits from inflated price selling of useless shares (very rampant in Nigeria). |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by No2Atheism(m): 2:25am On Dec 15, 2009 |
@topic I would prefer to tackle the topic from the point of saying: - No they do not deserve it . . . - The mere fact that Banks and some Investment firms required bailout shows that it means the so called "profits" made by those Banks and Investment firms in the past were not real. It hence shows that the bonuses and inflated salaries paid to the Bankers on the basis of those profits are likewise fraudulent, cus common sense dictates that if those profits were real, then the concerned bank or investment firm would not have needed to be bailed out in the first place. - It is an open secret that most highly educated financial gurus simply can't explain the current complicated schemes such as Derivatives that are being used to make money in the West. This is simply because its either thsoe schemes are fraudulent and hence people are scared to publicly say it (hence they call it complicated) or they are simply senseless and inplausible that most people simple cannot risk their reputations to explain it. - One simple rule is that: IF A BUSINESS IS SO COMPLICATED THAT YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT, THEN THE MOST LIKELY EXPLANATION IS THAT ITS FRAUDULENT. - So called derivatives are difficult to explain simply because I believe they are intentionally meant to be difficult to explain. . .otherwise how would bankers be able to justify using them to make immoral money. - Bankers do not actually provide physical goods and services, instead they make money through either: 1. Lending. 2. Keeping other people's money and then charging fees for keeping other people's money 3. Investment in other people that produce physical goods and services. 4. Mafia protection money aka Insurance. 5. Price fixing and manipulation in commodities. 6. Cooking the books. . . 7. Basically creating money out of thing air. . . Unfortunately, the profit margins for doing the above things is not actually high unless you start becoming heartless and start cutting moral and legal corners. . . e.g. Insider trading, Spurious fees and bank charges, Cut throat interest rates . . . all in all, the richest bankers are usually the ones with the least conscience, cus making money in banking is inversely proportional to how large your consience really is. - This is because the most legitimate way of making money is either if you sell a physical good or you sell a physical service. . . - A significant number of bankers are just merely shifting money around . . .and committing immoral but legalised money tricks (that would have been considered to be financial crimes a few centuries ago). . . that do not really result in sale of either physical goods and services. - Bankers are known to engage in artificial price fixing of goods and services hence increase their profit margin, by fixing the market. - Most bankers are young cus the reality is that its difficult for a matured and moral person (with a conscience) to remain a banker cus sooner or later they are faced with two options i.e. they either resign to safe their conscience or continue and then become sadists as a result of years of legal but fraudulent transactions (The reason why I find it difficult to reconcile the idea of a christian wealthy Nigerian banker - "Christian" + "Wealthy" Banker simply do not mix). - The very foundation of banking itself is based on deception i.e. using other people's money to make money while transfering most of the risk to the owner of the money and merely sharing the profit amongst themselves. . . e.g. Wall Street continues to get bonuses while main stream America continues finance the bail out. - It takes a significant lack of conscience for someone to actually succeed as a Professional Banker . . . the fact is that you simply cannot hope to be a successful banker or investment specialist while still having a conscience. . . it simply cannot happen. Common sense shows that unless you can actually produce a unique commodity or service that people physical buy, its difficult to be rich (without doing something fraudulent), hence it raises the question as to how bankers get paid for doing nothing other than create profits out of thin air. - Lending and Insurance are one of the most non-violent but heartless areas of financial industry, where bankers (single name that I am using for invesment bankers, normal bankers, insurers and all of them put together) simply make money by picking on the legal and financial naivety of their clients. - Personally, I would never pay any form of insurance if I can legally get away with it . . . simply because the very nature of insurance itself is fraudulent. If you can give someone money to insure your business and property, why not pay yourself with to insure it yourself so that when you need the money you can actually retrieve the money. Insurance companies are just like a legalised mafia that is forcing people to pay for protection that is (in most cases) never provided when the actual problem actually occurs. The US health industry is one example. - Africans are smart, hence the reason why insurance business is not really profitable in Africa, cus Africans know that its silly for someone to be paying someone to insure a property for something that occurs by chance despite that there is no guarantee that the person being paid would actually even provide the insurance pay-out when you actually need it. - Investments in shares and use of insider knowledge to make profits from inflated price selling of useless shares (very rampant in Nigeria). |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by tkb417(m): 7:44am On Dec 15, 2009 |
Sagamite:saga when ure ready, buzz me on ma YIM and pls ensure u invite adint, Debosky, Jaybee, 4play, chamo, eldee and general sauron netotse: eldee:im a born again xtian. Saga is the Lord of the rings when it comes to that ADint:excellent! if they are regulated and all they have done is wthin the whims of the law, then i see no reason for any hubbub 4 Play: all these things are subjective and they all appeal to some social sentiments that will not thrive under no economic setting except under a regime in China or Korea. I agree the regulators will have to come forth with some more stringent measures to stem the excessive risk involved in stuffs like CDO that you have mentioned. I dont know what you mean by what is socialy responsible in the issuance of a CDO but i know a CDO will not exist if there are no underlying asset that is backing it up. CDOs and other instruments are tools banks have been using for close to a decade now and why is the noise about the crash getting a lot deeper than it should. Are the bankers the only people that witnessed downturns in their activities recently? what happened to car manufacturers? what about oil moguls? have we forgotten about the dot.com bubble? these things will happen even if we have the best morally upright bankers that will be averse to 'going the next level'. The real and the oil sector were bedevilled with crisis recently and nothing is made outta it. Oh i agree, the bankers got bailed out ! Cool, you have to just bail them out or switch totally to a socialist state where the govt becomes the solitary allocator of the damned resources. If you still trust us to make you rich, if you still wanna ride a car you cant afford, live in a house you cannt pay for, or plan for tomorrow with you lean and meagre resources, then bailing us out can only make sense like the coming again of Jesus! |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by tkb417(m): 11:34am On Dec 15, 2009 |
sagamite Trump is on CNN now the topic is "what do bankers owe the taxpayers'' |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sagamite(m): 6:38pm On Dec 15, 2009 |
tkb417: Wetin im say? What side is he batting for? |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by No2Atheism(m): 8:17pm On Dec 15, 2009 |
@topic I would prefer to tackle the topic from the point of saying: - No they do not deserve it . . . - The mere fact that Banks and some Investment firms required bailout shows that it means the so called "profits" made by those Banks and Investment firms in the past were not real. It hence shows that the bonuses and inflated salaries paid to the Bankers on the basis of those profits are likewise fraudulent, cus common sense dictates that if those profits were real, then the concerned bank or investment firm would not have needed to be bailed out in the first place. - It is an open secret that most highly educated financial gurus simply can't explain the current complicated schemes such as Derivatives that are being used to make money in the West. This is simply because its either thsoe schemes are fraudulent and hence people are scared to publicly say it (hence they call it complicated) or they are simply senseless and inplausible that most people simple cannot risk their reputations to explain it. - One simple rule is that: IF A BUSINESS IS SO COMPLICATED THAT YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT, THEN THE MOST LIKELY EXPLANATION IS THAT ITS FRAUDULENT. - So called derivatives are difficult to explain simply because I believe they are intentionally meant to be difficult to explain. . .otherwise how would bankers be able to justify using them to make immoral money. - Bankers do not actually provide physical goods and services, instead they make money through either: 1. Lending. 2. Keeping other people's money and then charging fees for keeping other people's money 3. Investment in other people that produce physical goods and services. 4. Mafia protection money aka Insurance. 5. Price fixing and manipulation in commodities. 6. Cooking the books. . . 7. Basically creating money out of thing air. . . Unfortunately, the profit margins for doing the above things is not actually high unless you start becoming heartless and start cutting moral and legal corners. . . e.g. Insider trading, Spurious fees and bank charges, Cut throat interest rates . . . all in all, the richest bankers are usually the ones with the least conscience, cus making money in banking is inversely proportional to how large your consience really is. - This is because the most legitimate way of making money is either if you sell a physical good or you sell a physical service. . . - A significant number of bankers are just merely shifting money around . . .and committing immoral but legalised money tricks (that would have been considered to be financial crimes a few centuries ago). . . that do not really result in sale of either physical goods and services. - Bankers are known to engage in artificial price fixing of goods and services hence increase their profit margin, by fixing the market. - Most bankers are young cus the reality is that its difficult for a matured and moral person (with a conscience) to remain a banker cus sooner or later they are faced with two options i.e. they either resign to safe their conscience or continue and then become sadists as a result of years of legal but fraudulent transactions (The reason why I find it difficult to reconcile the idea of a christian wealthy Nigerian banker - "Christian" + "Wealthy" Banker simply do not mix). - The very foundation of banking itself is based on deception i.e. using other people's money to make money while transfering most of the risk to the owner of the money and merely sharing the profit amongst themselves. . . e.g. Wall Street continues to get bonuses while main stream America continues finance the bail out. - It takes a significant lack of conscience for someone to actually succeed as a Professional Banker . . . the fact is that you simply cannot hope to be a successful banker or investment specialist while still having a conscience. . . it simply cannot happen. Common sense shows that unless you can actually produce a unique commodity or service that people physical buy, its difficult to be rich (without doing something fraudulent), hence it raises the question as to how bankers get paid for doing nothing other than create profits out of thin air. - Lending and Insurance are one of the most non-violent but heartless areas of financial industry, where bankers (single name that I am using for invesment bankers, normal bankers, insurers and all of them put together) simply make money by picking on the legal and financial naivety of their clients. - Personally, I would never pay any form of insurance if I can legally get away with it . . . simply because the very nature of insurance itself is fraudulent. If you can give someone money to insure your business and property, why not pay yourself with to insure it yourself so that when you need the money you can actually retrieve the money. Insurance companies are just like a legalised mafia that is forcing people to pay for protection that is (in most cases) never provided when the actual problem actually occurs. The US health industry is one example. - Africans are smart, hence the reason why insurance business is not really profitable in Africa, cus Africans know that its silly for someone to be paying someone to insure a property for something that occurs by chance despite that there is no guarantee that the person being paid would actually even provide the insurance pay-out when you actually need it. - Investments in shares and use of insider knowledge to make profits from inflated price selling of useless shares (very rampant in Nigeria). |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by Sagamite(m): 9:40pm On Dec 15, 2009 |
Post from No2Atheism deleted by Spambot: Disclaimer: My posting is just to help, not as a seal of approval of contents. @topic I would prefer to tackle the topic from the point of saying: - No they do not deserve it . . . - The mere fact that Banks and some Investment firms required bailout shows that it means the so called "profits" made by those Banks and Investment firms in the past were not real. It hence shows that the bonuses and inflated salaries paid to the Bankers on the basis of those profits are likewise fraudulent, cus common sense dictates that if those profits were real, then the concerned bank or investment firm would not have needed to be bailed out in the first place. - It is an open secret that most highly educated financial gurus simply can't explain the current complicated schemes such as Derivatives that are being used to make money in the West. This is simply because its either thsoe schemes are fraudulent and hence people are scared to publicly say it (hence they call it complicated) or they are simply senseless and inplausible that most people simple cannot risk their reputations to explain it. - One simple rule is that: I[b]F A BUSINESS IS SO COMPLICATED THAT YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT, THEN THE MOST LIKELY EXPLANATION IS THAT ITS FRAUDULENT.[/b] - So called derivatives are difficult to explain simply because I believe they are intentionally meant to be difficult to explain. . .otherwise how would bankers be able to justify using them to make immoral money. - Bankers do not actually provide physical goods and services, instead they make money through either: 1. Lending. 2. Keeping other people's money and then charging fees for keeping other people's money 3. Investment in other people that produce physical goods and services. 4. Mafia protection money aka Insurance. 5. Price fixing and manipulation in commodities. 6. Cooking the books. . . 7. Basically creating money out of thing air. . . Unfortunately, the profit margins for doing the above things is not actually high unless you start becoming heartless and start cutting moral and legal corners. . . e.g. Insider trading, Spurious fees and bank charges, Cut throat interest rates . . . all in all, the richest bankers are usually the ones with the least conscience, cus making money in banking is inversely proportional to how large your consience really is. - This is because the most legitimate way of making money is either if you sell a physical good or you sell a physical service. . . - A significant number of bankers are just merely shifting money around . . .and committing immoral but legalised money tricks (that would have been considered to be financial crimes a few centuries ago). . . that do not really result in sale of either physical goods and services. - Bankers are known to engage in artificial price fixing of goods and services hence increase their profit margin, by fixing the market. - Most bankers are young cus the reality is that its difficult for a matured and moral person (with a conscience) to remain a banker cus sooner or later they are faced with two options i.e. they either resign to safe their conscience or continue and then become sadists as a result of years of legal but fraudulent transactions (The reason why I find it difficult to reconcile the idea of a christian wealthy Nigerian banker - "Christian" + "Wealthy" Banker simply do not mix). - The very foundation of banking itself is based on deception i.e. using other people's money to make money while transfering most of the risk to the owner of the money and merely sharing the profit amongst themselves. . . e.g. Wall Street continues to get bonuses while main stream America continues finance the bail out. - It takes a significant lack of conscience for someone to actually succeed as a Professional Banker . . . the fact is that you simply cannot hope to be a successful banker or investment specialist while still having a conscience. . . it simply cannot happen. Common sense shows that unless you can actually produce a unique commodity or service that people physical buy, its difficult to be rich (without doing something fraudulent), hence it raises the question as to how bankers get paid for doing nothing other than create profits out of thin air. - Lending and Insurance are one of the most non-violent but heartless areas of financial industry, where bankers (single name that I am using for invesment bankers, normal bankers, insurers and all of them put together) simply make money by picking on the legal and financial naivety of their clients. - Personally, I would never pay any form of insurance if I can legally get away with it . . . simply because the very nature of insurance itself is fraudulent. If you can give someone money to insure your business and property, why not pay yourself with to insure it yourself so that when you need the money you can actually retrieve the money. Insurance companies are just like a legalised mafia that is forcing people to pay for protection that is (in most cases) never provided when the actual problem actually occurs. The US health industry is one example. - Africans are smart, hence the reason why insurance business is not really profitable in Africa, cus Africans know that its silly for someone to be paying someone to insure a property for something that occurs by chance despite that there is no guarantee that the person being paid would actually even provide the insurance pay-out when you actually need it. - Investments in shares and use of insider knowledge to make profits from inflated price selling of useless shares (very rampant in Nigeria). |
| Re: Do Bankers Really Deserve Their Multi-million Pound Pays? by No2Atheism(m): 9:53pm On Dec 15, 2009 |
@sagamite thanks . . . i don post the thing tire . . . up to 3 times . . .the spambot jsut dey delete am . . . |
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