This is a question that I have pondered on and decided to ask all Nairalanders if stealing is ever justified and if so, in what circumstances.

Lets say that you are the student body president of a Nigerian university and a certain sum of money has been allocated to be paid to students for their annual bursary. After disbursing them, you realize that there are some left over money. Now, there are certain students from underprivileged background who are on the verge of being kicked out for lack of fees. There are some left over money that could easily pay off their fees, but your dilema is two fold: If you are return back the left over money to your governor, chances are he will easily pocket it, but if you choose to help out these indigent students financially to better their future, would that be considered stealing in the eyes of God?

I would like a response on this subject.

it is the motive behind the action that matter most, it can either be justified or other way round, depending on those taking the decision.

Ndipe:

This is a question that I have pondered on and decided to ask all Nairalanders if stealing is ever justified and if so, in what circumstances.

Lets say that you are the student body president of a Nigerian university and a certain sum of money has been allocated to be paid to students for their annual bursary. After disbursing them, you realize that there are some left over money. Now, there are certain students from underprivileged background who are on the verge of being kicked out for lack of fees. There are some left over money that could easily pay off their fees, but your dilema is two fold: If you are return back the left over money to your governor, chances are he will easily pocket it, but if you choose to help out these indigent students financially to better their future, would that be considered stealing in the eyes of God?

I would like a response on this subject.

My view is that there is no justification for stealing in all circumstances. A wrong action remains wrong even with the best of motive or intention. At best, the good motive behind a wrong action will only prevent the consequences of stealing at the motive or intention level but will not prevent the consequences of stealing at the action or physical level. A human being is only responsible to God and his laws. Thus in the example you gave, he must return the left over money to the governor. If the governor embezzles the left over money, the governor will someday receive the necessary retribution from the laws of God for stealing public money. Even though, the student leader in your example has good intention, he does not understand the meaning of omniscience of God. Neither does he understand that the principle of the end justifying the means contradicts the love and justice of God. The omniscience of God is all encompassing that it will take care of the indigent students with respect to their school fees in other ways than the student leader can ever imagine. An example may suffice. Assuming that the student leader has deep within his spirit the urge to help out with the fees of the indigent students. Then, this longing is a prayer that finds its way to God. If in the omniscience of God, the student leader is chosen as a mediator of the help to indigent students, the same omniscience brings about circumstances and events which will result in the student leader genuinely having the money to take care of the school fees of some indigent student. In this instance he may be going home to his hostel in the night and a stranger had a burst tyre. Something within him compels him to help the stranger in fixing his car. After helping the stranger, the stranger gave him an evelope. He refused to take the envelope but was persuaded by the stranger to take the envelope. On reaching his hostel, he was shocked to see that it was a cheque that can effectively take care of some of the indigent student.

Alternatively, for some strange reasons, the governor was very impressed with his honesty in returning the money and invited him to the government house for personal chat. In the night before the day he is to meet the governor, he had a vivid dream in which a voice told him to raise the issue of the indigent students with the governor. On meeting the governor, he brought up the issue of indigent students who are about to be kicked out of the uni because they could not pay their fees. Again without question and even against the advice of his advisers, the governor decided to use his own personal money to take of the fees of these indigent students. There are several other scenarios which lies within the omniscience of God. These scenarios are not fairly tales as some skeptics may imagine, the happen every day. We human beings are so busy with the trifles of daily life that even very clear manifestation of the omniscience of God go unnoticed. The lesson of all this is that God in his omniscience have several options to bring about the fulfillment of his will for individuals, nations, the universe etc and God is not limited to our options no matter how good intentioned they may be. When confronted with a dilemma, we should ask for guidance from God before acting and not act before asking for the guidance of God or believe that our ways or options are at the same time the ways of God. No wonder we run into so much unhappiness and problems when we act without guidance from ABOVE.

Even though, this does not directly belong to your question. I will give one example to demonstrate that the laws of God rules the world and fulfillment will come about with or without the participation of creatures. A man has committed so much murder that his activities have set in motion reciprocal action that will result in the violent death of the man at a particular day. Now the day of fulfillment arrives but all the people around the man are so pure that this murderous current can not find an anchorage within them. Thus the man cannot be murdered because the murdering currents cannot find homogeneity in other people. On the fateful morning in which these murderous currents will have a physical manifestation, this man was very apprehensive and sensed an unseen danger to himself. He thus loaded his gun out of fear,  and the loaded gun exploded on him. Thus the murderer fell on his own sword without the participation of others. Best Wishes.

^^^^^^^^^^

Very beautiful!!! I completely agree. By the way, m_nwankwo where have you been? Nigeria? We missed you and your wise inputs.


Wellcome back!!!!!!

enitan2002:

it is the motive behind the action that matter most, it can either be justified or other way round, depending on those taking the decision.

@enitan2002

You are not totally missguided. While I agree with you that "it is the motive behind the action that matter most"; a bad action remains a bad action that can never be justified.

A bad action, like stealing, even when a good motives is behind it, is still action that will receive a reaction corresponding to its nature. The reciprocal action resulting from this action will greatly be mitigated or reduced by the rays of good motive which emanating from the spirit forms a protective layer around the individual. It is different with one who doesn't have a good motive, such a person will be more severely hit by the reciprocal action resulting from the bad action; because he has no protection in his aura due to his lack of good motive.

Either every evil action(no matter the motive behind it) will give rise an evil reciprocal action. Therefore no evil action is ever justified.

Thanks and remain blessed.

justcool:

^^^^^^^^^^

Very beautiful!!! I completely agree. By the way, m_nwankwo where have you been? Nigeria? We missed you and your wise inputs.


Wellcome back!!!!!!

Hi Justcool. Thanks for your kind words. I was on holiday in my house here in Norway. My baby (wife) decreed that I should not near the pc during the holiday and I obliged. I am sure you and the family are doing great. I wish you a new year filled with joyful activity, inspiration and productivity! Stay blessed.

what if i tell a lie to protect my family from an assassin. Such as telling him they are not at home when in truth they are hiding under the bed. Will you state that this is wrong under the laws of God?

It is quite easy to think and talk in black and white when discussing issues like this. . . until one is confronted LIVE with them. . . then it is no longer so black and white and easy.

Deep Sight:

what if i tell a lie to protect my family from an assassin. Such as telling him they are not at home when in truth they are hiding under the bed. Will you state that this is wrong under the laws of God?

Ndipe:

This is a question that I have pondered on and decided to ask all Nairalanders if stealing is ever justified and if so, in what circumstances.

Lets say that you are the student body president of a Nigerian university and a certain sum of money has been allocated to be paid to students for their annual bursary. After disbursing them, you realize that there are some left over money. Now, there are certain students from underprivileged background who are on the verge of being kicked out for lack of fees. There are some left over money that could easily pay off their fees, but your dilema is two fold: If you are return back the left over money to your governor, chances are he will easily pocket it, but if you choose to help out these indigent students financially to better their future, would that be considered stealing in the eyes of God?

I would like a response on this subject.

what is not yours,is not yours,if you think returning it to the governor means he ll pocket it then go with a lot of students,do not forget the ones who are studying law trust me they will make a good case of it,also take along with you the student union officials{all of them},then get some lecturers also get the press men with all this it will be quite difficult for the governor to pocket the money

Ndipe:

This is a question that I have pondered on and decided to ask all Nairalanders if stealing is ever justified and if so, in what circumstances.

Lets say that you are the student body president of a Nigerian university and a certain sum of money has been allocated to be paid to students for their annual bursary. After disbursing them, you realize that there are some left over money. Now, there are certain students from underprivileged background who are on the verge of being kicked out for lack of fees. There are some left over money that could easily pay off their fees, but your dilema is two fold: If you are return back the left over money to your governor, chances are he will easily pocket it, but if you choose to help out these indigent students financially to better their future, would that be considered stealing in the eyes of God?

I would like a response on this subject.

How?

Jenwitemi:

It is quite easy to think and talk in black and white when discussing issues like this. . . until one is confronted LIVE with them. . . then it is no longer so black and white and easy.

But would that still be considered a sin, lying to protect your family from mauraders? That's a good question.

Deep Sight:

what if i tell a lie to protect my family from an assassin. Such as telling him they are not at home when in truth they are hiding under the bed. Will you state that this is wrong under the laws of God?

@Deep Sight and Ndipe

The process can easily be surveyed. For a man who truly loves his family, this love emanates from his spirit and forms a protective aura around him. By telling a lie to save his family, this lying or speaking is a gross material action which will receive a reaction of like nature. This reaction will be returned to the man based on the law of reciprocal action. This reaction on reaching the man, will be mitigated or completely defused or disintegrated by the protective aura of such a man.

The greatly mitigated karma may end up being redeemed by an unconscious symbolic action. The next day or the next month, this man may meet a stranger asking for direction; by stopping and offering the stranger direction, this man has reaped the karma resulting from his lying. He has balanced the equation without knowing it. At first he told a lie by withholding the truth or misdirecting/misleading another person; then letter he offered a stranger direction by speaking the truth or giving the stranger to right direction. The karma that may have necessitated that he became a victim of a lie or deception, now gets paid without him being a victim. What would have caused him sorrow now causes him joy, for helping the stranger gives him(the man who once lied) joy. Like the Yorubas would say, “what would have severed your head has just knocked off your hat.”

Speaking belongs to gross matter, words take on forms in the realm of medium gross matter. But spiritual intentions are far stronger and far more reaching in their effect. The volition that gave rise to the lie was a good volition, and hence its consequences will out weigh the consequences of words. Even though the reciprocal effect of the spiritual volition will be reaped by the man’s spirit; it effects is very far reaching, this volition radiates through the aura of the man offering him protection even in the gross material realms. This is why I maintained that the intention is the most important, here by intention I mean that which emanates from the spirit.

The radiation of the spirit permeates everything; hence a man's environment or situations he often finds himself in is often a reflection of his inner being(his spiritual state). Therefore if this intention is really a strongly emanating from the spirit it can affect the man's situation in ways that he may never find himself in a situation where he will have to do something wrong or lie in-order to save his family.

Should ever find himself in such a situation, a way will be shown to him through which he can save his family without lying.

Have you considered that the man could have simply refused to disclose where his family was?  Rather than lying he could have just said, “I won’t tell you where they are.”

Thus the spiritual volition is justified but the lie is not. The ‘lying’ only reveals this man’s inability to anchor his volition in the right in the physical realm or gross matter.

If you are truly earnest in serving God or in doing the right thing, you will never have to lie or do anything wrong to implement a good volition or do the will of God.

Thanks

justcool:

@Deep Sight

The process can easily be surveyed. For a man who truly loves his family, this love emanates from his spirit and forms a protective aura around him. By telling a lie to save his family, this lying or speaking is a gross material action which will receive a reaction of like nature. This reaction will be returned to the man based on the law of reciprocal action. This reaction on reaching the man, will be mitigated or completely diffused by the protective aura of such a man.

The greatly mitigated karma may end up being redeemed by an unconscious symbolic action. The next day or the next month, this man may meet a stranger asking for direction; by stopping and offering the stranger direction, this man has reaped the karma resulting from his lying. He has balanced the equation without knowing it. At first he told a lie by withholding the truth or misdirecting/misleading another person; then letter he offered a stranger direction by speaking the truth or giving the stranger to right direction. The karma that may have necessitated that he became a victim of a lie or deception, now gets paid without him being a victim. What would have caused him sorrow now causes him joy, for helping the stranger gives him(the man who once lied) joy. Like the Yorubas would say, “what would have severed your head has just knocked off your hat.”

Speaking belongs to gross matter, words taken on forms in the realm of medium gross matter. But spiritual intentions are far stronger and far more reaching in their effect. The volition that gave rise to the lie was a good volition, and hence its consequences out weigh the consequences of words. Even though the reciprocal effect of the spiritual volition will be reaped by the man’s spirit; it effects is very far reaching, this volition radiates through the aura of the man offering him protection even in the gross material realms. This is why I maintained that the intention is the most important, here by intention I mean that which emanates from the spirit.

The radiation of the spirit permeates everything; hence a man's environment or situations he often finds himself in is often a reflection of his inner being(his spiritual state). Therefore if this intention is really a strongly emanating from the spirit it can affect the man's situation in ways that he may never find himself in a situation where he will have to do something wrong or lie in-order to save his family.

Should ever find himself in such a situation, a way will be shown to him through which he can save his family without lying.

Have you considered that the man could have simply refused to disclose where his family was?  Rather than lying he could have just said, “I won’t tell you where they are.”

Thus the spiritual volition is justified but the lie is not.

Thanks

Thought as much when I was about to ask, are you a member of eckankar?

Ndipe:

Thought as much when I was about to ask, are you a member of eckankar?

No. I am not.

@poster

Stealing can only be justified if it is a matter of survival. That is if the only way a person can eat (for example), then if he/she steals, the act can be understood.

Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labour, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.

Jenwitemi:

It is quite easy to think and talk in black and white when discussing issues like this. . . until one is confronted LIVE with them. . . then it is no longer so black and white and easy.

Than you for your wise words Jenwitemi.

Necessity breaks all laws.

justcool:

@Deep Sight and Ndipe

The process can easily be surveyed. For a man who truly loves his family, this love emanates from his spirit and forms a protective aura around him. By telling a lie to save his family, this lying or speaking is a gross material action which will receive a reaction of like nature. This reaction will be returned to the man based on the law of reciprocal action. This reaction on reaching the man, will be mitigated or completely defused or disintegrated by the protective aura of such a man.

The greatly mitigated karma may end up being redeemed by an unconscious symbolic action. The next day or the next month, this man may meet a stranger asking for direction; by stopping and offering the stranger direction, this man has reaped the karma resulting from his lying. He has balanced the equation without knowing it. At first he told a lie by withholding the truth or misdirecting/misleading another person; then letter he offered a stranger direction by speaking the truth or giving the stranger to right direction. The karma that may have necessitated that he became a victim of a lie or deception, now gets paid without him being a victim. What would have caused him sorrow now causes him joy, for helping the stranger gives him(the man who once lied) joy. Like the Yorubas would say, “what would have severed your head has just knocked off your hat.”

Speaking belongs to gross matter, words take on forms in the realm of medium gross matter. But spiritual intentions are far stronger and far more reaching in their effect. The volition that gave rise to the lie was a good volition, and hence its consequences will out weigh the consequences of words. Even though the reciprocal effect of the spiritual volition will be reaped by the man’s spirit; it effects is very far reaching, this volition radiates through the aura of the man offering him protection even in the gross material realms. This is why I maintained that the intention is the most important, here by intention I mean that which emanates from the spirit.

The radiation of the spirit permeates everything; hence a man's environment or situations he often finds himself in is often a reflection of his inner being(his spiritual state). Therefore if this intention is really a strongly emanating from the spirit it can affect the man's situation in ways that he may never find himself in a situation where he will have to do something wrong or lie in-order to save his family.

Should ever find himself in such a situation, a way will be shown to him through which he can save his family without lying.

Have you considered that the man could have simply refused to disclose where his family was?  Rather than lying he could have just said, “I won’t tell you where they are.”

Thus the spiritual volition is justified but the lie is not. The ‘lying’ only reveals this man’s inability to anchor his volition in the right in the physical realm or gross matter.

If you are truly earnest in serving God or in doing the right thing, you will never have to lie or do anything wrong to implement a good volition or do the will of God.

Thanks

Well written sir, but i dont agree with you. I don't believe that the falsehood told to protect one's family is a lie in terms of sin at all. Not at any level. This is because for me, when we speak about right and wrong, and when we speak about this in a moral context, then the true definition of a lie is not just a falsehood, but a malicious falsehood, or a falsehood carrying some other negative intent. Accordingly, I do not regard the example i gave as a lie in terms of morals.

Accordingly i do not belive there will be any karma even on the physical plane, no matter how grossly or completely mitigated by the intent.

Have you considered that the man could have simply refused to disclose where his family was?  Rather than lying he could have just said, “I won’t tell you where they are.”

And risk getting shot? Please let's be calmly realistic and not push the boundaries of unnecessary and misplaced idealism.

Thus the spiritual volition is justified but the lie is not.

The "lie" is very justified. I can see no greater justification that could exist. In this I will give you an example. Self-defence and homicide. Under the law, self-defence completely absolves an accused of homicide. And this is a far more serious matter than "lying" one would think - taking human life! Yet there are situations were it is not just excusable, but even unavoidable, and the person doing such is completely absolved of the crime, on account of the imperative of self-defense.

Please note that the technical definition of self-defense under law, extends not just to defending one-self, but also to defending anybody who is in imminent danger.

I believe that if killing another human being in self-defense is justifiable, then talling a mere falsehood to misdirect an assassin and prevent him from achieveing his nefarious objective, is not just justifiable, but even wholly noble.

I advise you to think carefully before reverting on this because i am aware that even Abd Ru Shin in one of his lifetimes was forced to kill another human being.

If that was not spared him, I don't know how you can make an assumption that all good souls will be protected from such scenarios. It simply isn't true.

The ‘lying’ only reveals this man’s inability to anchor his volition in the right in the physical realm or gross matter.

This is very harsh, and i believe simply amounts to thinking in black and white, as Jenwitemi said.

m_nwankwo:

My view is that there is no justification for stealing in all circumstances. A wrong action remains wrong even with the best of motive or intention.

Sir, I am sorry to say that this time I believe you have got it entirely wrong - and this perception of yours does not seem to me to be sufficiently reflective, or grounded.

Even homicide is justifiable in certain circumstances - notably in self-defence and in situations of war. The lecture "Warfare in Nature" should be instructive in this regard.

Again, as i stated to justcool, i state to you that even the Abd Ru Shin himself was forced into homicide in one of his lifetimes. What would you say about that - particularly when you consider that he was supposedly the highest representation of the Light?

Deep Sight:

Sir, I am sorry to say that this time I believe you have got it entirely wrong - and this perception of yours does not seem to me to be sufficiently reflective, or grounded.

Even homicide is justifiable in certain circumstances - notably in self-defence and in situations of war. The lecture "Warfare in Nature" should be instructive in this regard.

Again, as i stated to justcool, i state to you that even the Abd Ru Shin himself was forced into homicide in one of his lifetimes. What would you say about that - particularly when you consider that he was supposedly the highest representation of the Light?

Hi DeepSight. Happy New year. Thanks for your comment and I offer my perception as follows. My view is that there is no justification for lie in all circumstances. Justification in this case means what is in accordance to the laws of God. When one lies to protect his family, we are dealing with at least two different currents of fate. If the man did this out of genuine love for his family, then we have spiritual volition. The fact that the man lied physically represents an action. The genuine love is according to the laws of God but the action is in disobedience to the laws of God. A man who genuinely love his family has a less likelihood of lying. Thus the action of lying did not emanate from his spirit but from from his brain. The motive power behind the spiritual volition of love mitigates and in many cases disintegrates the the returning retribution due to physical lying. Is the physical lying justified, certainly not. Is the intention to protect his family justified, absolutely yes. What happens to the man as a result of these two opposite events is an interplay and the stronger spiritual volition will be the decisive factor. The goal of spiritual development is for the spirit to compel its bodies to act in sync with the volition of the spirit. If there is a discordance between what the spirit wills and what his body does, with time the horizon of the spirit get narrowed and blurred. It will become increasing difficult for the spirit to see clearly for his envelopes of perception have dimmed tremendously.

If you see the lying and the intention to protect the family as different events that will elicit different reciprocal actions and not the same event elliciting the same reciprocal action, then you may see what I am trying to say.

Killing even in self defence is not according to the laws of God, rather it is an understandable reaction to the abuse of free will by other human beings. On earth where darkness and light coexist, it is understandable but not according to the laws of God when we kill in self defence. If all men have followed the laws of God, then no man will have the urge to eliminate the life of another and self defence to protect ones life and that of others will be non-existent. Every genuine obedience to the will of God ennobles the spirit, the spirit inwardly feels light which manifest in inner joy. No normal human being who kills in self defence experience this inner joy, rather a sorrowful mist can be felt. As per your reference to Abd-ru-Shin, kindly examine the story again and particularly how Abd-ru-Shin felt after the incident.

As long as we are on earth where good and evil dwell side by side, it is possible that we can be harmed even when we are spiritually mature. However, being spiritually alert will eliminate most of the dangers. When we choose to experience on earth where arbitrary actions from fellow creatures have become the norm, we accepted prenatally that we can be exposed to the consequences of the abuse of free will by others. These things happens for reasons which I sense you know off. But the love and justice of God bring rcompensation to those who become victims of evil acts of their fellow men.

I do not think that warfare in nature belong to issues here. We are dealing with the spirit. A clarified spirit lives in the laws of God and warfare as with animals is out of the question. In the kingdom of God where mature and clarified spirits dwell, war is non-existent. As always stay blessed.

in nigeria why not

There goes the fight between morality and Christianity . . . . .  The age long argument between what is right/wrong and what is righteous/sinful!

The bible say 'thou shall not lie' . . .  but is it right to watch your loved one die when a lie would have save his/her life?

The bible says 'thou shall not kill' . . . but can a mother watch a criminal violation her daughter and possibly kill when she could have killed him?

The bible says 'thou shall not steal' . . .  what if you have to steal to save a life? 

And there goes the question . . .  what's the difference between what is 'righteous' and what is 'right'?

In the law court, a murderer can be acquitted on the grounds of self defense, insanity e.t.c. Murder could be seen as manslaughter if it wasn't intentional. Surely our God is not a God of Black and White  . . . he recognizes the gray areas too!

Of course the religious fanatics will say otherwise . . . .  but then again, what do we know     

@Deepsight

I was rushing to answer your question, but M_nwankwo has already done that. I believe his answer dealt with all the issues that you raised in reference to my last post. I agree with his perceptions here and I don't have much to add.

The only thing I will like to say is that issue with Abd-ru-shin is very different, and completely within the laws of God. How I wish I can go deeply into it here; but I cant because such would not be compliant to the wish of Abd-ru-shin who never wished for such unnecessary attention to be drawn on His personality. Coupled with the fact that such would derail this thread. I'm only going to say a little:

In the example that you gave, the man took it upon himself to lie. In the case of Abd-ru-shin; it wasn't a presumption, He was acting on the will of God. All life and all physical bodies are a gift from God; only God can decide when to take away this gift from any creature. God sometimes uses the elementals to accomplish this task, I'm yet to see an instance where God used a human spirit developed from spirit germs to accomplish such a task. In the case of human beings killing another, it is always a presumption that they are acting in the will of God; and hence such killings are not justified. In the case of Abd-ru-shin, consider the people that the man(the man who was killed) captured; they were called ones sent from God for the benefit of the entire mankind. By such an action the man had declared war against the fulfillment of Divine promises on earth, fulfillment that the entire mankind depended on spiritually. When your country is attacked, it is within the laws of God to fight back and protect your country. It would be wrong to sit down and allow an enemy to destroy an entire country. The enemy that Abd-ru-shin freed from his physical body was a threat to the survival of the entire mankind; in that he was threat to a Divine fulfillment on which the spiritual survival of mankind depended on. For Nahome and her mother(the little girl and the woman) who the man captured were called ones. Also keep in mind that Abd-ru-shin gave the man the opportunity to hand over the captives, to set the captives free, but the man refused. Also freeing him saved him from a karma that would may have sealed his fate for eternity.

I barely scratched the surface though. If you trace the path and the origin of everybody involved in that event, you will easily recognise that what happened was a manifestation of the love of God.

Thanks

m_nwankwo:

Hi DeepSight. Happy New year. Thanks for your comment and I offer my perception as follows. My view is that there is no justification for lie in all circumstances.

Sir I really want to implore you to reflect again carefully on what you are saying here. In that regard, may I request that you start from the definition of what a lie means to you morally speaking, and then proceed to the significance it may bear in the spiritual.

Justification in this case means what is in accordance to the laws of God.

What is in accordance with the laws of God is Love and the expression and propagation of love, and certainly not trifles such as the fib that one may have to tell to save a life. I am almost tempted to take the view that if you found yourself in a truly desperate situation where lives were at stake, perhaps you would change your perception of this matter. For only in the instant reality of that moment can one truly understand that what is told is not a lie in the moral sense: only a positive action is taken to deny an evil-minded party the oppurtunity to deliver his nefarious intentions.

Thus the action of lying did not emanate from his spirit but from from his brain.

Where did the love emanate from?

The motive power behind the spiritual volition of love mitigates and in many cases disintegrates the the returning retribution due to physical lying. Is the physical lying justified, certainly not. Is the intention to protect his family justified, absolutely yes.

I have to ask again what you understand by the word "justified." I believe that that which is justified is that which is motivated and propelled by genuine love and acts for the good and against the evil. A person who tells a falsehood inorder to prevent genocide for example, is eminently justified in that regard. I really don't know how anybody can reasonably suggest that that is not justified. It absolutely beats me.

For me, it simply means that you are swayed by the form, whereas you should look to the substance.

If you see the lying and the intention to protect the family as different events that will elicit different reciprocal actions and not the same event elliciting the same reciprocal action, then you may see what I am trying to say.

They are inseparable.

As per your reference to Abd-ru-Shin, kindly examine the story again and particularly how Abd-ru-Shin felt after the incident.

You perhaps have not factored the fact that Abd Ru Shin is said to carry within him an unsubstantiate core out of the divine. That is the highest and strongest light coming into the material realm. If such a personage could yet commit homicide, then I rest my case.

It is in that alone made clear that the black-and-white approach you are taking is an approach that would be alien to the finer discernment of the Light itself. Like I said, substance should rate above form in appreciating these things.

justcool:


In the example that you gave, the man took it upon himself to lie. In the case of Abd-ru-shin; it wasn't a presumption, He was acting on the will of God. All life and all physical bodies are a gift from God; only God can decide when to take away this gift from any creature. God sometimes uses the elementals to accomplish this task, I'm yet to see an instance where God used a human spirit developed from spirit germs to accomplish such a task. In the case of human beings killing another, it is always a presumption that they are acting in the will of God; and hence such killings are not justified. In the case of Abd-ru-shin, consider the people that the man(the man who was killed) captured; they were called ones sent from God for the benefit of the entire mankind. By such an action the man had declared war against the fulfillment of Divine promises on earth, fulfillment that the entire mankind depended on spiritually. When your country is attacked, it is within the laws of God to fight back and protect your country. It would be wrong to sit down and allow an enemy to destroy an entire country. The enemy that Abd-ru-shin freed from his physical body was a threat to the survival of the entire mankind; in that he was threat to a Divine fulfillment on which the spiritual survival of mankind depended on. For Nahome and her mother(the little girl and the woman) who the man captured were called ones. Also keep in mind that Abd-ru-shin gave the man the opportunity to hand over the captives, to set the captives free, but the man refused. Also freeing him saved him from a karma that would may have sealed his fate for eternity.

This post is actually an argumentation in favour of what I am saying.

You cannot suggest that that was the only instance in all of recorded history where the violent action taken was in line with the Divine will and helped to protect divinely willed sequences. If you suggest such, that would be nothing but special pleading.

Ujujoan:

There goes the fight between morality and Christianity . . . . .  The age long argument between what is right/wrong and what is righteous/sinful!

The bible say 'thou shall not lie' . . .  but is it right to watch your loved one die when a lie would have save his/her life?

The bible says 'thou shall not kill' . . . but can a mother watch a criminal violation her daughter and possibly kill when she could have killed him?

The bible says 'thou shall not steal' . . .  what if you have to steal to save a life? 

And there goes the question . . .  what's the difference between what is 'righteous' and what is 'right'?

In the law court, a murderer can be acquitted on the grounds of self defense, insanity e.t.c. Murder could be seen as manslaughter if it wasn't intentional. Surely our God is not a God of Black and White  . . . he recognizes the gray areas too!

Of course the religious fanatics will say otherwise . . . .  but then again, what do we know     

Hi Ujujoan. Thanks for your comments. Your points are well made. I respect them but do not agree for the same reasons I have adduced for the student leader and the man that lied to protect his family. Above all, I alluded that when confronted with such a dilemma, one must turn his gaze to God and will receive the necessary guidance. The ways of God are indeed black and white. The grey areas do exist but God did not create the grey areas, rather the grey areas are the result of the activities of man.

Why is it not possible for a life to be saved without stealing? Why is it not possible for rape to be prevented without murder? The hypothetical cases in this thread makes the assumption that the subjects have only one choice, to lie,steal or murder in order to safe life or prevent rape. My view is that there are several options within the omniscience of God that will save life or prevent rape without lying or killing the criminal. I point to the observation that yes men can lie in some circumstance to save life but the lying is not the will of God but the genuine desire to save life is according to the will of God. Now the underlying extra point is that if God is to save life or prevent rape, God will not use lying, stealing or murder. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:


Why is it not possible for a life to be saved without stealing? Why is it not possible for violation to be prevented without murder? The hypothetical cases in this thread makes the assumption that the subjects have only one choice, to lie,steal or murder in order to safe life or prevent violation. My view is that there are several options within the omniscience of God that will save life or prevent violation without lying or killing the criminal.

This unfortunately shows that you have not ventured to consider the vast array of different scenarios of instant danger that people are thrust into. This also shows that you have not considered that those scenarios very often occur at high tempo, suddenly and surprisingly, whereat the person involved does not have even an instant to begin to do the things you so idealistically suggest, such as "turn his gaze to God" or other such.

Rather what happens is that natural survival instincts placed in him by his creator take instant and swift defensive action and this may indeed be violent.

Now the underlying extra point is that if God is to save life or prevent violation, God will not use lying, stealing or murder.

This surely is plainly wrong - certainly in terms of what actually obtains in fact. For it is recorded by your own transmitted writings that a being emanating from the divine actually commited homicide. This alone makes your own statement wrong, as God in that instance supposedly wished to save lives, and certainly did so through the homicide commited by Abd Ru Shin - a being bearing within him an unsubstantiate light core - note this most carefully please!

If such a being could take such action, I see no reason to hold lesser beings such as humans to a higher standard than that exhibited by a supposedly divine being.

Hi again DeepSight

Sir I really want to implore you to reflect again carefully on what you are saying here. In that regard, may I request that you start from the definition of what a lie means to you morally speaking, and then proceed to the significance it may bear in the spiritual.

Lie is saying something that is untrue with the intention to deceive or mislead.

What is in accordance with the laws of God is Love and the expression and propagation of love, and certainly not trifles such as the fib that one may have to tell to save a life. I am almost tempted to take the view that if you found yourself in a truly desperate situation where lives were at stake, perhaps you would change your perception of this matter. For only in the instant reality of that moment can one truly understand that what is told is not a lie in the moral sense: only a positive action is taken to deny an evil-minded party the oppurtunity to deliver his nefarious intentions.

My perception will not change. I have been on such incidence on four occasions in this present earth life. As you are aware, I avoid personal testimonies. All I can say is that I absolutely rely on the guidance and power of God. Whatever situation I will find myself, I will only look upwards to God in calm confidence and let his will be done.

I have to ask again what you understand by the word "justified." I believe that that which is justified is that which is motivated and propelled by genuine love and acts for the good and against the evil. A person who tells a falsehood inorder to prevent genocide for example, is eminently justified in that regard. I really don't know how anybody can reasonably suggest that that is not justified. It absolutely beats me.

For me, it simply means that you are swayed by the form, whereas you should look to the substance.

Justification as I defined in my penultimate post is that which is according to the laws of God. Even with good intentions, a human being can easily go astray if he is not open to guidance from ABOVE. I have not disputed that the spiritual volition from which the good intention emanated is the substance while the lying (action) is the shadow. Indeed I have even affirmed that in all my post in this thread. The finer point I am making is that the shadow is contrarily to the will of God, and cannot be ignored or dismissed just because the substance is the decisive factor. Continual repetition of the shadows will soon poison or cloack the substance that its luminosity is lost and its emanations trapped.

You perhaps have not factored the fact that Abd Ru Shin is said to carry within him an unsubstantiate core out of the divine. That is the highest and strongest light coming into the material realm. If such a personage could yet commit homicide, then I rest my case.

It is in that alone made clear that the black-and-white approach you are taking is an approach that would be alien to the finer discernment of the Light itself. Like I said, substance should rate above form in appreciating these things.

The laws of God is applicable to all and is applicable to God or his envoys too. The killing in self defence by Abd-ru-Shin during his preparation in an earlier incarnation was not willed by God. I will someday in future recall that event to you and we can go through the details. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:

Hi Ujujoan. Thanks for your comments. Your points are well made. I respect them but do not agree for the same reasons I have adduced for the student leader and the man that lied to protect his family. Above all, I alluded that when confronted with such a dilemma, one must turn his gaze to God and will receive the necessary guidance. The ways of God are indeed black and white. The grey areas do exist but God did not create the grey areas, rather the grey areas are the result of the activities of man.

Why is it not possible for a life to be saved without stealing? Why is it not possible for violation to be prevented without murder? The hypothetical cases in this thread makes the assumption that the subjects have only one choice, to lie,steal or murder in order to safe life or prevent violation. My view is that there are several options within the omniscience of God that will save life or prevent violation without lying or killing the criminal. I point to the observation that yes men can lie in some circumstance to save life but the lying is not the will of God but the genuine desire to save life is according to the will of God. Now the underlying extra point is that if God is to save life or prevent violation, God will not use lying, stealing or murder. Stay blessed.

Still we cannot completely rule out the fact that God can forgive a 'sin' if committed with the best intentions! He's the omnipotent after all. How do you know that the 'sin' wasn't his will, to maybe teach you the importance of staying strong and being decisive in the face of danger!

For example, for the whole world to be saved, Jesus Christ had to be murdered, a terrible death at that! Peter had to deny him, Judas had to sell him! These were all 'necessary' sins . . . committed for a greater good!

I'm sorry you disagree!  

Ujujoan:

Still we cannot completely rule out the fact that God can forgive a 'sin' if committed with the best intentions! He's the omnipotent after all. How do you know that the 'sin' wasn't his will, to maybe teach you the importance of staying strong and being decisive in the face of danger!

For example, for the whole world to be saved, Jesus Christ had to be murdered, a terrible death at that! Peter had to deny him, Judas had to sell him! These were all 'necessary' sins . . . committed for a greater good!

I'm sorry you disagree!  

Of course I disagree but I respect your views. Stay blessed.

^^^^^

Ask the indians and the Americans