KunleOshob:

I wonder why my darling Pilgrim.1 finds it soooo difficult to succumb to obviously superior arguments when her position is being overwhelmingly faulted

'Darling' Kunle. . lovable brother, for thy sake pilgrim.1 succumbs. Can we hug now?

@pilgrim.1 & KunleOshob

This is another way in which the Church has gone astray and forsaken the word of God.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church..

The scripture is clear on this Matter, but today we see Women leading and even owning Many Churches. May God have Mercy on His people.

BTW, where is Pilgrim.1?

To all those knocking their heads against the wall arguing that women cannot lead a church, let it be known to you that in Christ Jesus, there is neither male nor female. His agenda on earth is much bigger than the issue of gender and He will use any willing vessel, irrespective of gender.

Let the answer to this question be the final arbiter: Will God manifest His power in a church being led by a woman?

If the answer to that question is YES, then please let's stop all this nonsense arguments and get busy fulfilling God's calling on our lives. Afterall if God has no problem calling women to leadership positions in the Church and working through women in such positions, who are we to say women can't occupy those positions?

GBAM! GBAM!!

@toluxa1: haba! On another thread, I was just saying that you are speaking my mind. Not here, though!

And my own piece: I think the women in the early church days, as addressed in Timothy and Corinthians, were very troublesome and noisy and were causing distractions.

AMPLIFIED
1Co 14:34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says. [Gen. 3:16.]

Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and craving will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.

Understanding the LAW that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 14:34 is hinged upon understanding Gen 3:16 above. As many of you guys as have argued with a woman know that a woman has a terrible way with arguments and nagging when she believes she is right. That is what the boldened part of Gen 3:16 refers to, and Paul was concerned about such things raising their heads in the church.

Of course, in today's world, women have been known to take up highly valued responsibilities in the society and still act objectively. It was not so in those days. Never forget that these are the end times, and even if God needs to speak through trees and rocks, he will. So, how about women, then?

That is why, I believe, Paul said that those things to Timothy, pastor at Ephesus, and the Corinthian church, both very young and relatively unstable churches.

Last question: What do you think Jesus would say about this topic, in respect of the fact that the first person HE sent with the gospel of His resurrection was actually a woman?

Joh 20:16 Jesus said to her, Mary! Turning around she said to Him in Hebrew, Rabboni!--which means Teacher or Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not cling to Me [do not hold Me], for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brethren and tell them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.
Joh 20:18 Away came Mary Magdalene, bringing the disciples news (word) that she had seen the Lord and that He had said these things to her.

Please let us endeavour to take the word of God in context, the Holy Spirit will thus multiply our understanding by faith.

Come om, now mavenbox. I didnt expect you to come up with this kind of reply. One ECWA village pastor told me the same and all i could do was shake my head.

mavenbox:



And my own piece: I think the women in the early church days, as addressed in Timothy and Corinthians, were very troublesome and noisy and were causing distractions.

You see, there are many “objections” to this view of women in ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated or troublesome (as you have said). However, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 nowhere mentions educational status or troublesomeness. It is not about what we think. If education for example were a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, who was the pastor of the church in Ephesus). The city of Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, a false Greek/Roman goddess. Women were the authority in the worship of Artemis. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention Artemis worship as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the “reason” perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for” and gives the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived.” God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. This order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching men or having spiritual authority over them. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors/preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.

@toluxa1: I stopped arguing on Nairaland two or three weeks ago. So, I have read what you said, but I want you to tell me your view about the last thing I said in my previous post, taking note of the fact that Mary was sent to MEN and not women and children:

Last question: What do you think Jesus would say about this topic, in respect of the fact that the first person HE sent with the gospel of His resurrection was actually a woman?

Quote
Joh 20:16  Jesus said to her, Mary! Turning around she said to Him in Hebrew, Rabboni!--which means Teacher or Master.
Joh 20:17  Jesus said to her, Do not cling to Me [do not hold Me], for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brethren and tell them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.
Joh 20:18  Away came Mary Magdalene, bringing the disciples news (word) that she had seen the Lord and that He had said these things to her.

Please let us endeavour to take the word of God in context, the Holy Spirit will thus multiply our understanding by faith.

mavenbox:

GBAM! GBAM!!

@toluxa1: haba! On another thread, I was just saying that you are speaking my mind. Not here, though!

Lol. Sorry to disappoint ooo. I do that alot. regardless of what people will say. I am 20 years old and because of this, i speak to some people ( really elderly people) and they just look at me like, "What is this one saying". But i don't bother, I speak the truth of the Word of God.

Grace

@Toluxa: Why have you refused to answer my question about Jesus' perspective?

By the way, how is Minna? I had my NYSC there years ago,

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I think the main Emphasis is that Women should do spiritual teaching or have authority over men in the church. That is why God commanded in 1Cor 14:35 that they should not Teach in the Church (because the probably will be men in the church).

1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


Mary did not in anyway take up spiritual authority over the disciples or teach them. She simple delivered a message. (go to My brethren and tell them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.)

You see women's place in the church is an example of the decision by the church to change God's law to suit man's ideas. There is tremendous pressure to accept women in the pulpit and allow women to rule and have authority in the church. This is absolutely contrary to the law of God. God has given strict rules regarding the leadership in the church (I Timothy 3). Not only must the leaders be men, but they must be married with children, giving evidence that they can rule their own home. Also, many other qualifications are given for these rulers. Therefore, most men do not qualify for leadership, and yet, churches today are appointing single men and married men without children. This, the churches have chosen to go their own way and to disregard God's law.


Minna is fine. I'm a student in FUT. I was born here though. Where did u serve? Inside Minna?

@toluxa1: I weep in pidgin Aramaic. If the leaders needed to be married with children, then Paul himself was disqualified. I hope you can see that the church in Ephesus was a peculiar church? As well as the one in Corinth? The peculiar bit about each church has to do with their idolatrous practices, which placed women in authority. For new converts from such practices, they may want to do the same with Christianity, and that was what Paul was warning against.

As a rule of thumb, whenever I want to verify the truth about God's Word in a matter, I use the two or three witnesses approach to establish the matter. If I find three witnesses (in this case, two other writers apart from Paul, or Paul in two other situations or circumstances) who said the same thing, then it's hook line and sinker for me. But that's my own view.

I served in Chanchaga local government, lived in Bosso, near the FUT, where I used to go and play chess and twack the students, and well, I used to lose and draw too but I won most times. LOL. Further details may not be discussed cos I like partial anonymity on NL.

@toluxa:

Mary did not in anyway take up spiritual authority over the disciples or teach them. She simple delivered a message. (go to My brethren and tell them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.)

And about Mary, did it occur to you that THAT is the work of a pastor, to DELIVER the message for the time?

The only place where pastor occurs in the KJV is in Jeremiah
KJV Jer 17:16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.

AMPLIFIED Jer 17:16 But as for me, I have not sought to escape from being a shepherd after You, nor have I desired the woeful day [of judgment]; You know that. Whatever I said was spoken in Your presence and was from You.

MESSAGE Jer 17:16 But it wasn't my idea to call for Doomsday. I never wanted trouble. You know what I've said. It's all out in the open before you.

which thus makes it clear that the duty of a pastor is that of a shepherd: lead the flock. How do you lead the flock? By having the right message (which is what translates to the direction they would follow. e.g. if Mary didn't deliver the message, how would the disciples resume their duty?)

I rest my case.

As I type, I have not finished reading your post, but as soon as I got to the second line, I hit the Reply botton.

Now, Paul WAS NOT AN ELDER, DEACON OR BISHOP IN ANY OF THE CHURCHES? The issue od being married with Children was a command God gave the churches as a criteria to be Appointed as Elder in the Church.
. . . Now let me read your post finish

The scriptures were not written to any specific people but to US ALL.

@toluxa1: Of course I read you, loud and clear. But then, tell me, was Paul not a pastor as well, a pastor of the pastors? A General overseer? That was why I said I weep in pidgin Aramaic. What makes Paul qualified, and yet telling others that it would be better if they could be celibate like himself, to attend to the ministry? Would that not make them disqualified by your rule above?

The simple truth is that marriage of the pastor has not been, and will not be, a criteria for the move of the Holy Spirit in any church.

1Co 7:7 Sometimes I wish everyone were single like me--a simpler life in many ways! But celibacy is not for everyone any more than marriage is. God gives the gift of the single life to some, the gift of the married life to others.
1Co 7:8 I do, though, tell the unmarried and widows that singleness might well be the best thing for them, as it has been for me.
1Co 7:9 But if they can't manage their desires and emotions, they should by all means go ahead and get married. The difficulties of marriage are preferable by far to a sexually tortured life as a single.

That was my point, and not that Paul was an elder.

P.S> I need to go now. I have a lot to say on this topic. Maybe when I return much later I will make my posts.

Cheers.

mavenbox:

@toluxa: And about Mary, did it occur to you that THAT is the work of a pastor, to DELIVER the message for the time?
The only place where pastor occurs in the KJV is in Jeremiah
KJV Jer 17:16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.

AMPLIFIED Jer 17:16 But as for me, I have not sought to escape from being a shepherd after You, nor have I desired the woeful day [of judgment]; You know that. Whatever I said was spoken in Your presence and was from You.

MESSAGE Jer 17:16 But it wasn't my idea to call for Doomsday. I never wanted trouble. You know what I've said. It's all out in the open before you.

which thus makes it clear that the duty of a pastor is that of a shepherd: lead the flock. How do you lead the flock? By having the right message (which is what translates to the direction they would follow. e.g. if Mary didn't deliver the message, how would the disciples resume their duty?)
I rest my case.

For the bold, I anticipated that reply. But we're talking of position of leadership here. You can make a similar argument using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more “prominent” in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).

In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a “deaconess” instead of a “servant,” that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders/bishops/deacons are described as the “husband of one wife,” “a man whose children believe,” and “men worthy of respect.” Clearly the indication is that these qualifications refer to men. In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders/bishops/deacons.

mavenbox:


As a rule of thumb, whenever I want to verify the truth about God's Word in a matter, I use the two or three witnesses approach to establish the matter. If I find three witnesses (in this case, two other writers apart from Paul, or Paul in two other situations or circumstances) who said the same thing, then it's hook line and sinker for me. But that's my own view.

Yes, that it how we can find truth, by comparing scripture with scripture.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual [scripture] things with spiritual [scripture].

mavenbox:

@toluxa1: Of course I read you, loud and clear. But then, tell me, was Paul not a pastor as well, a pastor of the pastors? A General overseer? That was why I said I weep in pidgin Aramaic. What makes Paul qualified, and yet telling others that it would be better if they could be celibate like himself, to attend to the ministry? Would that not make them disqualified by your rule above?

The simple truth is that marriage of the pastor has not been, and will not be, a criteria for the move of the Holy Spirit in any church.

That was my point, and not that Paul was an elder.

P.S> I need to go now. I have a lot to say on this topic. Maybe when I return much later I will make my posts.

Cheers.

Of course He was a Pastor, a preacher, a prophet etc, There is nowhere the bible says women should not be Pastors. But over who? That is the issue. Over men.


Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The above verse clearly states that in the last days, ALL BELIEVERS will be appointed the role of prophets. Meaning in one way or the other we are all Pastors. In school, in work, in family, to our friends. By prophet, I mean we have all be given the role of preaching the word of God. So its not a matter of whether paul was Pastor. But the issue is not of Paul (can smell digression), its of Women taking authority or leadership position in the church.

Also Note that the command in focus was clearly given to the New Testament Church (which began on Pentecost Day, A.D 33). The Jesus-mary even happened a couple of weeks before that.

Only if the woman is me.

A woman can teach/preach.
As long as she has a spiritual covering over her head
All those hiding behind 1Cor14:34-end,should balance it with 1Cor11:3-7
Men are not allowed to wear caps in many Nigerian churches yet Catholic,Anglican&Methodist bishops do
Is their own manhood superior to other men?
So many wrongly intepreted Scriptures used to uphold falsehood
BTW,a man can wear a cap whilst in Church just as a woman can minister

No i cant,cos i hav been in it b4 nt nw again,its nt wel organised.No i cant,cos i hav been in it b4 nt nw again,its nt wel organised.No i cant,cos i hav been in it b4 nt nw again,its nt wel organised.

perhaps i can, but not one STARTED by a woman. definitely!

if she can tell me where the husband is nd the roll he's playing