Mbakuthegreat:


The frontier for African development will come from the English colonies, Magufuli is one of few african president who i regard as a leader, whom has been building infrastructure without indebting Tanzania and also stopped exportation of unprocessed minerals. Our economy will go throufh the catch up effect, like right now you have different foreign companies moving to countries such as Ethiopia for cheap labour and its this which will help african economy. We just have to make africa investment friendly.

Yep and those of us who live in the west have to learn whatever they can, save and invest ourselves.

Mbakuthegreat:


When you have a president like alpha conde in Guinea who is donating money for the rebuilding of Notre Dame while his people are starving you have to ask yourself where the loyalty lay. I’m not denying that we’ve have africans playing in the role of the current situations in french colonies for their own gaines instead of the nation. Lets hope for a better future of those colonies, there is has began a governmental shift in europe and France and it maybe to their advantage one day.

I saw those reports but don't know how accurate it is. The previous leaders didn't do much to develop infrastructure and move the country up the value chain so he isn't to blame really. He has been building dams (overpriced) but lack the intellect to truly move the country forward. Most of the dams built will not function to full capacity so it has been a waste while the country and many other African ones can import gas from Nigeria or Algeria. But hey, we are slow and love to talk to about how we are the continent of the future. We should have restructured our economies since the 60s but today, Africa's economy hasn't changed from colonial days. We build infrastructure to export minerals and then import finished goods.

OruExpress:


why 80% of the Netherlands government budget comes from unaudited Nigerian oil money.

Wikileaks even said theres no need to spy on Nigeria because if you ask they'll tell you.

Come on now. 80% of their budget? Be serious. You would have seen it on the revenue portion of the ledger.

OruExpress:


I think you have to get rid of your inferiority complex first. If you aim to be advanced you have to compete with the rest of the world and think 'how can I do this better than them'. As it stands, this thought process doesnt exist in Nigeria. so we do everything to a lower standard than whites because be believe its only natural. When they pass free healthcare and we cant keep paint on a hospital's wall theres no pressure, no shame and no sense of urgency because this is how it's supposed to be.

Can you imagine that Nigeria is still using an anti-black school curriculum from 100 years ago because white people wrote it and we cant imagine doing better? If we want development we have to want to be better than the west and this is a line of thinking that next to no Nigerian thinks is humanly possible so were contact being 60 years behind and feel we've arrived when were 50 years behind.

Even our resources. Did you know that trump put a pile of papers in Buharis face and he signed them without question? Can a Nigerian go to a negotiation table with a white Asian or Arab and feel hes talking to an equal? Many will be content telling others they met a non black. This is why 80% of the Netherlands government budget comes from unaudited Nigerian oil money.

Wikileaks even said theres no need to spy on Nigeria because if you ask they'll tell you.

Nigerians in the U.S are one of the most successful minority group. They have a high self esteem and their children regularly make the news for being admitted to top schools. They thrive in America because there is an actual state that doesn't put barriers in front of them. West Africans in general have high self confidence borderline arrogant. Go to the top universities and engineering schools, you'll see Africans.
The problem in most African countries is that politics are run by the mediocre ones. Politics are so toxic that the most brilliant of our people stay away from it. Nepotism does not create an efficient administration. So I'd say Naija needs to further transfer more power to the states and let them get a bigger share of their mineral wealth. The Niger delta should be a rich region . The only concern for the rest of country is availability of oil and gas for their use but most of the wealth should go to the locals. Texas is rich because their oil money stays there. It doesn't go to Washington (except for tax dollars) to enrich fat belly politicians .
If I were an Ijaw, I would have blown up pipelines too. It's Bullsh*t that those folks in Abuja should be rich while the people whose land the oil is extracted from are poor.

Mbakuthegreat:


@Omarbah as i thought this conversation isn’t going to go far if you think the presence of France is helping those colonies, again there is no proof of that infact most of them have remained as poor as during independence. Tell me what minerals does Japan have that U.S is after? And France doesn’t care about those nations developing, its care about getting what it wants, for example resources such as Uranium and as long as that puppet president can supply it there is no problem, it can either stay as poor or develope a bit like Cote dvoire as long as it follows french policies. And U.S and France has different policies, the same as we cant say that U.K and France have had the same policies with its colonies and ex colonies, ehich will bring different results which are quite clear when you look at Africa today.

How has those tens of coups kept those colonies secure? Tell me how did the coup against Thomas Sankara keep Burkina Faso secure, only for some 25 years later after the puppet out in place by France getting run out by an and angry young population? If its the problem of those african politicians then who is helping them stay in power for life if not no other than France? Who had supplied the weapons for the coups when it finally wants to remove them out of power? And you talk about france providing security to those colonies. This is stockholm syndrome which will not help Africa. If we cant see how those colonies are still slaves to France while you even have french opposition parties such as National Rally condemning France for its involvement in the coups of Africa then we are meant to be slaves forever, this is the definition of Stockholm syndrome.

1) For the n-th time, religion is NOT a determinant factor in a country's success but it plays a role that cannot be ignored. I have repeated that multiple times on previous comments and have even given you a link to an article that proves with hard data that European countries that mostly Catholics face worse economic conditions that those who are protestant. I have given you the example of Quebec versus the rest of Canada. I have given U.S.A vs Argentina. There are multiple other factors that determine a country's success and enumerated them already. These cultural differences have reverberated on Africa. The culture of hard work, business drive, entrepreneurship exist more in anglophone countries than it does in francophone ones. It exists more protestant countries than it does in catholic ones where the state tends to play a bigger role. I can send you countless articles on the subject.

2) Of course I'd prefer for France to leave our countries. They would recover their full sovereignty. But the presence of French forces do not explain the backwardness of those countries. What's valid for Cote d'Ivoire is valid for Senegal (CFA, France base) but while the latter has been able to build a good political system with peaceful transition of power, the former has not been and you can see that despite the resources Cote d'Ivoire has, Senegal has been making small but gradual progress. They will soon start to exploit oil and I am glad for them. May Allah bless that country. There are no tribal, ethnic or religious issues. Minorities come to power regularly . It's a Muslim country whose first president was Catholic and from a minority. Guinea has neither CFA nor French bases since 1958 and yet the country has been incapable on building a viable economy. Who is to blame for that? Cote d'Ivoire would be far ahead if after Houphouet's death in 1993, they had a peaceful transition. Bedie was a french protege. He fled the presidential palace through a tunnel that linked him to the french embassy. And Gbagbo never truly challenged France. Bedie and he played the ethnic card, ostracized millions of northerners which led to the rebellion. Of course, elements of french capitalism profited from the division. But it was Bedie who started dividing people. The French didn't have a remote control attached to his mind to force him to create the concept of "Ivoirité ".
So please don't misconstrue me. I am all for France and all foreign influence to end in Africa. But we have to look inward also , question ourselves if we want to move forward. Nigeria would be more cohesive if the country had an efficient administration. For example, do you think Texas would take it lightly if Washington were to be in control of the oil in the delta? Then why are people surprised if the Niger Delta boys aren't happy with the status, blow up pipeline and setup their own clandestine refineries? You'll notice this irrationality in almost all of our policies. When it goes wrong, foreign powers take advantage of it then we blame them.

I'll give one last example to finish. The Biafra war. You'll see many people accuse France of instigating it when in fact they were taking advantage of a situation created by Nigerians by the massacres the Igbos faced in other parts of the country in 1966. France and other western powers don't just invite themselves. We invite them through our division. It was ADO and other pro rebels in Cote d'Ivoire who invited the French. Today those same french are gone from Senegal . And some day, Senegal will get out of CFA or move to change its structure but meanwhile they are making the best out of what they have.

Mbakuthegreat:
@Omarbah You are acting like there haven’t been leaders who have tried developing those nations, they have been and got ousted when the agenda wen’t against France. Its not about the number of coups in that single country, as long as the puppet is doing his job there is no reason to oust him which is why Omar Bongo was in power for that long. The thing with those coups in Ghana and Nigeria, the people were the ones behind the planing of them, in the coups in the french colonies its France whos behind them and when it has successfully removed a rogue puppet it will place in another, how can these nation advance their political system when its not them who are even putting in its leaders and controling its policies? Again you cant compare English colonies to French, and this is not new information, these colonies never gained independence and only further autonomy. If you think its just as simple as putting in someone with a vision( Like Thomas Sankara) in those colonies and they will start to prosper then we won’t get far in this conversation. The only hope for those colonies to develope to its fulest is to remove french influence. Lukily in France, far right parties are rising who reject globalism and has been an opposition in french influence in Africa.

I wont deny that U.K has a more entrepreneurial mindset than France but theres no indication that its based on what type of christianity they practise. There is much to put together in terms of development and why it varies with the English and French colonies, but i do also think English is a more of an economic language than french, and its good to remember how U.K deals with its colonies vs how france does, with the UK from an economic stance. The english colonies got its education culture from U.K while the french got it from french so that entrepreneurial culture could have easily been transfered that way. I’ve already given you different muslim countries colonized by france such as Chad that are in the same situation as the catholics. We can only see clearly once France is gone, and i dont know how i can put the blame on France, if you have a leech you have to remove it to stop it from leeching of you, we’ve failed that after centuries of successful coups organised by France.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY8pCRSBd_o

I've watched that video multiple times before. All the countries you listed, Chad, Mali, Burkina are landlocked Sahelian countries. You cannot compare them to say Ghana or Kenya. Comparison should be made between two countries that have similar geography and have port access thus the choice to compare Cote d'Ivoire and Ghana. The former was more advanced than the latter up until the early 90s. They were many Ghanaian immigrants in their Cote d'Ivoire during Houphouet's days and yet he was a French puppet. Why was he able to build his country? Simply because he was shrewd politician who knew how to maintain cohesion. Unfortunately, African presidents love to die in power so the transition after him was problematic. That's the reason for their lag, not the french presence. A higher growth in Cote d'Ivoire is in France's interests since they could export more goods like agricultural products, champagne which Africans love to buy. The French presence actually makes the country more secure, it does make them more dependent but that shouldn't stop them from making economic progress. Both Japan and South Korea have American military bases but they are economic powerhouse due to their leaders' foresight and planning , their discipline and cohesive societies.
As for the differences between Protestant ethics and Catholics, I'll leave you this excerpt from an article among many that will give you insight.
"In a paper written in 2009 for the Quarterly Journal of Economics, entitled Was Weber Wrong?, Becker and Woessmann argue that Protestants were more successful because they had the advantage of a better and longer education. Further research has led them to conclude that the educational advantage began soon after Martin Luther broke away from the established Church in the 16th century and has continued to play its part in creating economic success throughout Europe.

Luther wanted women as well as men to be able to read the Bible, he points out. Not only did his followers set out to establish church schools in every parish, but girls went there as well as boys, he says. "We looked into the records of school building in the German federal state of Brandenburg in the 16th century, and discovered that there were disproportionately more girls in school than boys. Protestantism, it seems, was an early driver of emancipation. At that time, remember, Catholic areas didn't even have any boys' schools."

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

Mbakuthegreat:
@Omarbah

To say that the type of christianity is the overall the determinant force on how entreprenaul african countries are is just false(if thats what you are saying) since we are ignoring that the countries in Africa which practises catholism were colonized by France(or Belgium) and France was more vicious than any european colonial power in Africa and still is today. Rwanda and Burundi were colonized by Belgium and both practises catholism. After the genocide in Rwanda, which France had a role in they ended their relationship with them, even diched the french language for English, and with Kagames leadership they have embraced entreprenourship and have been building Rwanda which has been growing consistently under these 25 years unlike their neighbouring country Burundi.

Malawi was an english colony and majority of them practises protestantism. Before 1980 they had similar GDP until Rwanda surpased them which lasted until 1990. They surpased them again in 2010 which have lasted until now and with an increasing gap. If we are going with the logic that catholism and protestantism is ultimately the determinant on how entreprenal a country will turn out then this shouldn’t add up. And Malawi has a bigger population which can generate higher GDP.

Angola which was a portuguese colony and where majority are catholics is the best example. It has been good at extracting its resource and has today the third largest GDP in subsaharan Africa.

Dont ignore that the french colonies where they are muslims have the same economic strugles as their catholic counterparts such as Burkina Faso, Mali, Niger, Senegal and Chad. And a majority in Republic of Congo(Brazzaville) practises protentantism and in DRC its almost the same percentage catholics and protentatism. My point is that the issue is more complicated then catholism vs protentatism.

I didn't say that religion SIMPLY determined economic success. Rather, I said it makes a difference and have given a few examples, Quebec vs rest of Canada, USA vs Argentina, Englad vs France among others. You have geography, climate and other historical factors that come into play but culture also plays a role.
Well I am glad you brought up Rwanda. Those currently leading that country are the Tutsi diaspora that grew up in Uganda , Tanzania and Kenya. Kagame in particular was an officer of the Ugandan army and was also trained in the U.S. This diaspora has a completely different mindset. You can see the changes yourself. Burundi next door is always in trouble meanwhile Rwanda is building a state and a real economy.

Malawai went through a famine (geography ) so we have to factor that in. Still though, they are ahead of Burundi, whose president love to play rigged soccer games.

On Angola, again, religion and culture can be a factor but not necessarily the determinant and that has been my argument all along. They have been great at extracting oil money and yet have wasted it in building it in building a shiny capital often the most expansive city in the world while the rest of the country is dirt poor. They should have used the money to build their productive capacities, train , put people to work and connect the country. Yet, they are busy suppressing the Ovimbundu tribe.

Why is North America substantially better than the South hummm? Why has Venezuela wasted its vast oil wealth ( mind you they were the richest in Latin America not too long ago)? Why is britsh canada better than french canada? Why are Nigerians more entrepreneurial than their french speaking west african brothers? Why are the best run countries former british colonies and on ALL continents? This is not a coincidence. Some cultures are better than other at building and maintain wealth.

Mbakuthegreat:


You just confirm that you don’t know what you are talking about in regards to the french colonisation of Africa. Its very much well alive and France has military base in and around its colonies in Africa and has been involved in all the coups in those colonies. The Bongo family of Gabon was put in place by France and their corruptious behaviour is supported by France, if the family is about to act out of order France have the capability to remove them out of power like they recently did with Laurent Gbagbo of Ivory Coast. And they would be easily justified by the west and saying the family is a threat against human rights in Gabon, while they have all these years been supported by France.

As said France has made sure that the french colonies have remained as poor as during independence, till today France has a hold of the economy of it's colonies and majority of the African coups have been in the french colonies starting with Sylvanus Olympio 3 days before planning to announce that they were about to leave C.F.A for a new currency for Togo and one of the latest coups in Ivory Coast against Laurent Gbagbo, all of the coups always happening when french interest was threatened for example before/after a policy change which have seen millions of innocent people dead through the centuries.

C.F.A member countries must deposit 65% plus another 20% for financial liabilities, making the total of 85%. The french colonies therefore have only access to 15% of their own money for national development in any given year. If they are in need of extra money, as they always are, they have to borrow from their own 65% in the French Treasury at commercial rates.

It is also the Colonial Pact that demands that France has the first right to buy or reject any natural resources found in the land of the Francophone countries. So even if the African countries could get better prices elsewhere, they cannot sell to anybody until France says it does not want to buy those natural resources. China has even been fighting against France because they can't enter the market of these colonies successfully and trade, unlike in the English colonies. The times that China has managed to trade with these colonies the payment has been through infrastructure because they can't trade through currency without Frances involvment in the process.

France is nothing without stealing the resources of Africa:

The nuclear power in France that generate electricity get their supply of uranium from Niger.

The France's confectionery / chocolate companies got the main ingredient cocoa beans from Côte d'Ivoire.

France gets her crude oil and natural gas from Gabon, Côte d'Ivoire, Cameroun, Congo-brazzaville, Chad.

The jewelry stores in France get their gold and diamond from Guinea-Conakry, Côte d'Ivoire, Mali, Central African Republic, Burkina Faso...

The coffee that French people drink everyday come from Côte d'Ivoire, Guinea-Conakry...

The fruits( banana, mango, pineapple) in grocery stores in France come from Côte d'Ivoire.

The aluminum and steel for French car and aviation industry, France steals those bauxite ore and iron ore from Guinea-Conakry, Mauritania.

The phosphate that is used to make fertilizer, France goes to Togo to get it at ridiculous price.

Most of the tuna fish in every grocery stores in France come from Côte d'Ivoire.

The cotton used by France textile/clothing companies come from Mali, and Burkina Faso. France gets the manganese from Gabon.

The wood used in France in the construction and furniture industries, the timbers come from Côte d'Ivoire, Central African Republic, Gabon, Cameroun, Guinea...

I can go on and on all day to describe to you how France has been bleeding dry Africa. If France is ranked as one of the richest country in the world in term of GDP per capital is because of her gangsterism economic system against her colonies so-called "ex-colonies". This is why France's destructive relationship with these African countries is called " La Francafrique".

France is nothing without Africa, France is like leech. Her whole life depends on the plundering of African resources.

All of the resources you are naming here are bought by other countries just like France. China, the U.S, Canada and others have multinationals operating in the countries you have named and yet you don't seem to be blaming them for their lack of development. A good example would be Guinea. The biggest mining companies are American and recently Chinese. CBG, the largest bauxite company owned partly by the government was formed with Alcoa, a major US aluminum producer. Yet, I don't see people blaming America for Guinea's lag. The fact is, these countries have never had a policy to move up the value chain. Guinea is only recently building the dams necessary to refine the bauxite into Aluminum (energy intensive). From independence until today, not a gram of Aluminum has been produced in that country. It isn't anyone's fault by Guineans'.
Cote d'Ivoire had its strongest growth when French influence was at its peak during Houphouet's presidency ( Ivorian miracle). But his inability to find a suitable successor and Africans' inability to agree created a political crisis that the country is still recovering from. And it isn't even over, Gbagbo is out and might run for office in 2020. Nearly thirty years after Houphouet's death, three men ( ADO, Gbagbo and Bedie) are still the ones running the country.
Nigeria have had coups, a lot more than Cote d'Ivoire. Ghana have had more coups than Cote d'Ivoire and yet they are more advanced because they built a political system that allows for free elections and a peaceful transition of power from one person to another. Tanzania have had that system for a long time now. You can't ignore our own inability to solve our problems and constantly blame others. I refuse to do that. We don't plan long term. We are not ambitious enough. We always blame others what we do ourselves.
I hear this often, that France is nothing without Africa . It shows how much we are ignorant about what makes a country powerful. France has abundant agricultural resources, an extensive river system for internal transport which allowed it by the way to be the foremost European land power for centuries and consolidate its territory. It is one of the only country that is both a northern and southern power. These advantages are what make a country's strength. Mineral resources rarely determine whether or not a country is successful. Japan doesn't have any and yet they are the 3rd economic power. If you can produce food, transport stuff around your territory cheaply, have ports to trade with the outside world, can maintain a cohesive society and have an educational system to train workers and make them more productive then you will be successful. You can buy most of inputs you need. Our inability to build viable states is our greatest handicap, not foreign powers. Little France can't do a damn thing to west Africans if we were united. We are like a herd of sheep behind led by a German shepherd. Our lack of unity and action is our weakness, not the imagined strength of the dog.

Senegal is using CFA ( I am against it by the way), but since they are serious, disciplined, cohesive and have a functional state, they are able to make some progress even if it is small but gradual. Cote Ivoire could have surpassed Ghana if it was more cohesive. They could even have France station soldiers there. Japan is occupied by America but it doesn't change a thing about their economic power.

Mbakuthegreat:


Thats because the french colonies are still colonies of France and never gained independence unlike the english colonies(only Huinea got free of france). They have remained as poor as during indepence for except cote dvoire. Most of the coups have been in the french colonies and france control their resources and economy which is why you dont hear about billionaires from these colonies. Imagine what Thomas Sankara was able to do in his 4 years in power unlike his french puppet successor did for 25 years.

While France still has influence in those countries, it is quite a stretch to claim that they are still colonized. Cote d'Ivoire for example is akin to a french colony. But the DRC , Congo Brazza, Cameroon are more or less free. Gabon is free. What have they done with the resources they've got? Yes they are getting short changed, but if they had put the proceeds they received to good use, they would have accumulated much power by now to claim sovereignty. Africans sometimes think it is up to the rest of the world to feel sorry for us and change its way. Protest enough and the French will spot mingling in our business. If you were French, and gained much wealth from these African countries, would you have given up influence? Even within Nigeria, different groups hold on tooth and nail to the little power they have.
One of the reasons French speaking countries are behind is their over emphasis on university education instead of the trades. They train people for jobs that do not exist and since they aren't entrepreneurial, they end up spending the day drinking tea. Meanwhile, there are needs for farmers, welders, electricians, plumbers, roofers, furniture manufacturers, construction materials etc. The richest people in those countries are generally "uneducated" ones. They have not been formatted by the educational system that trains functionaries instead of innovators, businessmen, industrialists. Danpullo , who is known as the richest man in francophone Africa is a former truck driver turned businessmen. I know a few others involved in trade, logistics, "import-import" ( we don't export much in Africa). Unsurprisingly, France suffers from the same issues.They are not as entrepreneurial as their Anglo-Saxon counterparts. They have trying to change that with Station F, a startup incubator.

OruExpress:
Arabs also tell this myth that they were highly secular minded and scientific and 'led to the european renaissance' because they were introducing ideas from old Greece, india and the far east to europeans and claiming them as their own. When the ideas ran out they stopped their mythical scientific production and capability. It's consistent.

Asking critical questions based on the foundation that there is no 'allah' and religious books + the history around them are fiction. Anything that discourages that thinking (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) are forces that will get in the way when you're in any scientific field. There are great scientists that will emerge for societies that are religious but the religion will almost always be something they had to work in spite. Never an aiding force.

Science is a great thing, and can't be advanced without difficult truths.

It's not a myth, it's a reality based on historical facts. Scholars like ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, Ibn Sina (Avicenna) , Ibn Khaldun are well known for their contribution to science. Some of the earliest texts on the continent discovered in Timbuktu were written in Fulfude and Songhai which allowed the Sahel to dominate west africa for century. The Muslim world stopped making progress when the education shifted from math, islamic law & science to mainly religion. The decline in Islamic scientific learning in credited according to some Muslims to Al Ghazali in his work titled "The incoherence of philosophers" in which he declared that math, physics are incompatible with Islam (Boko Haram in a sense). While others argue against this assessment and point to Nizam Al Mulk, the grand vizier of the Seljuk Dynasty who made religious learning a more lucrative path to administration at the expanse of Islamic Law and sciences. Whatever the case, it is clear that at the 11th century, Muslims inflicted upon themselves a blow by shifting their educational system and they are living the consequences up until today. While a few a countries like Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia are progressively pulling out of this, many other Muslim societies still suffer from this and that obviously has to change.

OruExpress:
There was a point in time that I believed a lot of what people tell you about their own history. Then I grew out of it and started doing my own research. American didn't develop because of a 'protestant work ethic'. It succeeded because it was an entire continent's worth of land that can be acquired by shooting people armed with arrows at best.


If someone takes over West Africa, which is roughly the size of the US, kills everyone there, then owns the land and resources after, they'll be rich. 'Protestant work ethic' is what many protestants tell themselves about how America developed so that they don't have to have the real conversation. If you do what the Americans did, even with a catholic work ethic or whatever you'll be rich. America was populated by Catholics (Massachusetts) and protestants (South Carolina), and there's no evidence that the catholic places took a different course in physical development or economic production than the catholic ones.

There's also this idea that 'anglo saxons' work hard. That's very bizarre because nobody has ever accused the british of being hard working people lol. When they call themselves 'anglo saxon' people will say they work hard but when they call themselves english or british the notion becomes funny because we can all look at them in real time and deduce how ridiculous that is. There's nothing to imply they're working harder than others or ever did. You'll begin to really questions these propagandist pseudo historic ideas when you realize that there was never an Anglo Saxon invasion and it's a fictitious ethnic/historic group. the English weaponized industrial machine output before others if you're wondering how they had an advantage which led to getting 2 free continents of land, but that's it.

also, you said that Islam improved things for a group of people. That's the definition of a civilizing force.


https://www.google.com/search?q=civilizing+force+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS838US838&oq=civilizing+force+definition&aqs=chrome..69i57.8082j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The United States has the greatest water navigation system in the world which pretty allows farmers to produce , sell their goods cheaply to the world by shipping through the greater river system they have. The presence of Anglo-saxons on that territory has allowed in less than 300 years since the foundation of that country to build the world's greatest economic and military power. As Karn mentioned, Indians did have that land which by the way with easy transport routes that don't require much government involvement and yet they were not able to build a thriving nation. They were so secluded to the rest of the world that their immune system was weak and that above anything else explains the great tragedy they suffered.
I have given you the example of Quebec, Canada. A province rich in water , hydro-power, land resources and yet they lad behind English speaking regions. I have also given you the example of France, a country to romanticizes artisan work and never fully industrialized while England fully embraced it. Even here in Africa, anglophone countries tend to be more industrious than french speaking ones. They are cultural elements at play that cannot be ignored. North America and South America gained independence roughly around the same time. Northerners build the U.S.A and southerner built Gran Colombia. While the north cemented democracy ( for white people that is) by making sure land ownership is accessible , the south concentrated resources in the hands of few, the rest is history.
Another example. Argentina has about the same geographical (fertile land and river system for transport along with a good climate) as the USA and yet they don't come close in terms of economic power even adjusting for population. Mind you, Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries at the start of the 20th century but they are marred by economic crisis.There is a certain fiscal and monetary discipline in the US that does not exist in the Argentina and there has been an industrial drive since day 1 in the U.S that never existed in Argentina.

OruExpress:


It doesn't incentivize people to be pious but it does create a race where people try to prove they're more pious than the next man whether it's real or not. From bruising their own forehead to physical violence to others. I think we can both agree this is a part of muslim society worldwide and in africa in particular where a mix of inferiority complex makes it a notch worst.

lol, you said that islam improved society and was a civilizing force. If pagan dahomey and pagan muslims both practiced slavery then no, that's not an improvement, which is what my point. The west became the west be abandoning Christianity (Renaissance) and returning to Greek and Roman learning. There's nothing that's in Islam which builds a person and society that isn't in 'pagan' beliefs as well. A level of thought that surpasses both is now available to us. The difference between 'pagans' and Islam is that Islam forbids you to follow the superior method. That's why the north is where it's at.


I think you're mistaking what I'm saying. blindly going back to the past will leave you in the past. As will christianity and islam. The origin place of christianity and islam aren't why they don't predicate personal and social growth. It's what both doctrines preach. The Scientific Method (which is un-islamic and un-christian) is a foreign import from the West (greek and roman), and anyone rejecting in the name of sentimentalism about african's past is an enemy to themselves. You're assuming I'm saying that african culture will develop africa. I'm saying that what's being called african culture in the north is actually islam and when real african culture is exhibited there, the disparity is clear.

LOL I have noticed something with a few folks on this forum, they love to twist one's words. Where did I say that Islam is a civilizing force? That's a loaded expression my friend. I did recognize that it has improved Fulani society, I can speak to that. But civilizing it is taking it way too far.
Let's take a look at a few societies so determine the impact religion can have. North American for instance was mostly built by protestant Christians who attribute much of the success to their ethics that emphasizes hard work and specially savings. That sense of sacrifice and deferred consumption is what allowed them to save so much capital to build the infrastructure they did. Without that discipline and pressure from society to do so, the country would have been a huge wasted potential. You can see the contrast between Quebec (Francophone and Catholic) and the rest of Canada that is far more developed and yet Quebec has plenty of resources. If the US was ruled by Catholics it would have been like Quebec not what is currently is. You can see these differences between France and the UK. The former didn't fully embrace industrialization, romancing artisans . They don't work as much as their anglo-saxons counterparts and thus cannot fully benefit from their potential. Sarkozy, their former president , said they don't work hard enough (35 hrs a week).
You can see these differences between Iran and Saudi Arabia. One invests in industries, the other just likes to take the oil and build nice cities. Between Turkey and Saudi Arabia, you'll notice a bigger difference though they are both Sunni but have different versions of Sunni Islam. While Turkish clerics have interpreted the religion and commanded people to learn science and technology as Muslims used to do in the Islamic Golden age, in Saudi Arabia, religious education is a much bigger emphasis. To claim that Islam forbids you from following the "superior method" ( scientific method) is to be totally ignorant of Islamic history. Without people like Ibn Sina, there would not have been a European renaissance. When Europe was in the dark ages, it was Muslims who were studying the works of Aristotle, chemistry, algebra , medicine with Ibn Sina using the scientific method. As a matter of fact, the libraries that Muslim left in Spain after the reconquista were instrumental in reviving scientific learning in the west.
Turkey by the way, makes components of US fighter planes. They wouldn't have been able to do so if they rejected "the superior method". The issues you are seeing in northern Nigeria are related to the backward, bedouin form of Islam that some elements have adopted like BH. In my country, we used to reject western education too during the colonial times. It took clerics to convince people to send their kids to learn what the white men knows. Don't blame Islam. Blame local leaders who have let a foreign ideology to slowly gain ground on their territory.

OruExpress:
lastly, yes there's a lot of great things to take from other cultures and all cultures should be in the process of taking what works and shedding what doesn't.

But to say the Fulani didn't have institutions before islam is a bit much. I have done extensive research on my own culture before colonialism and what I learned genuinely blew my mind. I don't believe it was or would be different for the Fulani. I implore you to look into that. What we have isn't adaption. It's absorption based on inferiority complex...and that's the difference.

So today we don't have a situation where people are taking in what works elsewhere, and shedding what doesn't work in their own place. That's what we had prior to colonialism. What's happening now is the whole of africa feels so inferior to the outside world that we take in things just because they happen elsewhere, better or not. Sadly, it's the negative that's easy to mimic.

Today we are unique in humanity because we do things that are detached from our survival. In fact, survival and advancement are not our primary motivators, being like others is. This will all end eventually, but the beginning of the process is realizing what's yours and what isn't first, which is why I'm pretty passionate about topics like this.

We've had prior states like the Denianko Kingdom is northern Seneal whose rulers practiced a traditional form of religion . They worshiped Geno ( The Eternal) but from studying works of Tierno Monemembo (Peuls), I gather that there was too much infighting between us , too many conflicts (still today) with other groups due to our constant migration. It had (has) to change. Islam had been embraced by some of us who progressively proselytized and brought others into it before the Jihads of the 18th century. Like I said in my previous posts, Fulanis in west Africa have to go through another cultural revolution if we want to be relevant. We have been dormant for far too long.

OruExpress:


A few things I wanted to address in this post. I think the 'Maliki school was peaceful' trope is a myth. It still facilitated and perpetuated a multi-generation slave selling network predicated on castration among other things. There's nothing that's happening in today's Northern Nigeria that historic evidence doesn't say was always happening. It was spread by and launched violent jihad. There were probably benefits in comparison to what's happening now as countries with the older versions of islam (like senegal) are consistently in a better place socially and politically than wahabist ones (northern nigeria).

I don't believe wahabist islam is less islamic than any other school. I also think the end destiny of all islamic societies is to become stricter with time. My reason for this is islam is unique for giving social status and social authority to someone based on piety or the fact that they're exemplary muslims. Even in the dark ages, a persons status wasn't determined by how good they were at being christian or jewish. This is a muslim trait. The end result is society will always be a race of people trying to 'prove' they're 'more muslim' than the next man. Some will take this race further than others until you have what you had today. wahabist islam thrives because it allows it's followers to 'prove' they're more muslim than those that don't follow it. That also makes it hard to argue against but people that are moderate (bad muslims).

You are venturing on another field, moving from the influence of islam on culture to which version is more peaceful. There are no moderate or radical muslims. A Muslim is one who practices his religion the way Allah has commanded him or her to do so. He/She is either is practicing it correctly or not, in which case improvements have to be made. I won't go down this route with you but I'd like to point out that we do respect and elevate those among us who are pious. That doesn't mean they are granted power or wealth because of it. They are granted respect and trust which comes with social benefits. I do believe those are necessary to incentivize people to be pious.

As for slavery , didn't the pagan Kingdoms like Dahomey (Benin) practice it? Africans love to make it seem like our ancestral religions were so good and much better than what they call "imported" religious. Even westerners , who are the most technologically advanced people currently practice a religion that didn't originate from their land. They , however, adapted it and appropriated it to their benefit. The Pope isn't from Israel. He is from Europe . We only had one from South America. So let African Muslims practice their own version of Islam, appropriate to their benefit. We ain't going back to worshiping ancestors. Tell an Italian to practice the religion of Romans.

OruExpress:


yes and no. The US government signed an act to counter their disorganized homestead act. The homestead act said that any white male can have any land they wanted if they could put a fence around it. This caused conflict with the ranchers that were already in the area or dependent on the land.

But the US government was never in the business of 'creating and maintain(ing) grazing reserves lol. The ranchers had to buy the land they wanted to use because it was a private business. This 'you should give us free land and build ranches for us so we'll stop killing people' is peak ignorance.

Here is what a quick search on wiki yields "The law initially permitted 80,000,000 ac (32,000,000 ha) of previously unreserved public lands of the United States to be placed into grazing districts to be administered by the Department of the Interior."
Also "Surrounding land owners may be granted right of passage over these districts. Permits are given for grazing privileges in the districts. Also permits can be given to build fences, reservoirs, and other improvements. "

As far as I know people aren't buying the public lands , they have a permit to use it which is different. In my previous post, I did not suggest that government buy land and gives it to people for free, NO. Rather they should use PUBLIC LANDS, create (place under grazing districts if you prefer) grazing areas out of them and maintain them. Those reserves that the government will create here will be managed to have grass throughout the year. If cattle owners want to go above and beyond that and need a ranch, they should buy one or get a loan to purchase land using their cows as collateral. The federal government can set up a fund for that to encourage banks to do so. Anyone whose property will be seen roaming outside of those reserves will see their property confiscated, this will force them to get a ranch and at the same time have some space for their cows to graze on from time to time. The recently created radio can help educate herdsmen. It is one solution among many . But we should just sit around, continue to witness bloodshed, play ethnic or religious sentiment when the issue is that of land/resource management.

OruExpress:


Everyone is already very aware of the armed conflicts between pastoral hausas and nomadic fulani in the north, I don't think my Nairaland post about islam not being from Africa is going to change that. I think your posts a very aggressive and this probably isn't the discussion for someone with your temperament.

I wanted to get an hausa view on things because 9/10 times when an opinion is given from the North it's from a Fulani person. You feeling threatened by me asking is odd but telling.

It's a feud about land resources not about ethnicity. Have you ever heard of the range wars in the American west in the late 19th and early 20th century? You should look it up. None of the problems that Nigeria and African countries in general are going through are specific to us. It took an act of Congress in 1934 to provide millions of hectares of land for grazing cattle. African countries can do the same. Creating and maintain grazing reserves, have people apply for a permit , use the proceeds to build an irrigation system to maintain it all year round and the problem is solved.

OruExpress:
on my ex-girlfriend. Yes I found the situation very strange but in the south many of the things we think are 'our culture' are also foreign imports. But someone people will insult you for not abiding by that foreign version of your culture. I didn't know that it was a product of Wahhabi influence. I asked her to ask him what their language was before Islam and he said a word she had never heard before which I thought was profoundly telling.

Their region had been muslim for so long that I simply thought he was convinced nothing came before it. I think both islam and Christianity are doing a lot of damage in Africa. I know it's hard for muslims to hear but it's the truth, we're not seeing net positives from either and the level of confusion, exploitation and violence is only growing.

As much as we think they're 'civilizing' forces, they're not. Unless we thinking we have reached a level of social, economic, scientific, or political development that Japan hasn't. Europe only rose once it starting thinking outside of Christianity, and if not for oil the middle east would be a pile of sand.

Well from my encounters with Northern Nigerians, I have seen aspect of their culture inherent to their area. They do use the terms Emirs and Sultans but they also use "Lamido" which means King in Fulfulde and the turbans that I see their Emirs wear are unique to them. I have also heard the term Sarkin or Sardauna for traditional rulers. Their music is unique and they are deeply attached to their language. As I mentioned in a previous, even their names are true African names despite the combination with Arab ones. So I wouldn't say that what is called northern culture is mostly Islamic rather, their livelihood has a lot of Islamic influence to it as they have sincerely embraced the religion.
As for the influence of Islam and Christianity, I don't believe that either religion is in of itself bad for us. I believe they are tools that can be used to our benefit or detriment. Fulanis have had a positive influence from it I'd say. Before Islam, most of them were herdsmen. They embraced the religion and progressively became a sedentary people organizing themselves around a state with institutions and laws. Islam become a bad influence when you let foreign groups interpret the religion for us and impose us their point of view. The Islam we practiced in Africa ( North and West) all the way to the Iberian peninsula is of the Maliki School of thought which tolerates local cultures so long as they aren't explit ( lax sex rules for example). But since the early 1980s after the Islamic revolution in Iran, Saudi Arabia has been pushing its own version of Islam, Wahhabism which is very fairly recent (18th century). They exploit the poverty on the continent to setup, fund madrasas (schools) and provide scholarships for people to study theology in their country. All of these so called terrorist groups from BH to Al Shabab to ISIS and Al Qaeda are wahhabi. So to conclude, I'd say yes to Islam but African should be the ones interpreting the books and practicing the religion from their point of view.

Now going back to colonialism, 600 years of contact is relatively short in human history specially when you consider the level of contact and the regions. It was fairly limited to the coast. Japan had had trade links with the outside world too but nevertheless due to the limited nature of those contacts, they were left out of the first wave of industrialization. They had to open up to the outside world by sending their own people to study overseas in droves, which we didn't do as far as I know, modernize their political and economic systems to avoid being colonized (we also didn't do that). Africans were mostly ignorant of whites while they were studying us, gathering information before striking us. Granted the geographical location of Japan offers them benefits, they still manage to stay free. Ethiopia managed to stay free by more or less modernizing itself just enough to keep foreigners out.

I will tell you that there are elements of anglo-saxon culture that I'd love for Fulanis to embrace like their work ethic, their innovative spirit, their risk taking nature, a stronger emphasis on production rather than trade (Dangote is an example of someone who succeeded that transition) . I wouldn't want Fulani culture half a century from now to be the same. It has to evolve with the rest of world .

KarnThornheart:

As far as what's going on in Kano it's nothing but political. The governor feels the emir worked against him and he's punishing him. Rather than banishing him which I feel would be much better he's trying to ruin the heritage of Kano. This has nothing to do with ethnicity. The new emir's aren't even Hausa so why should Hausa be happy or aggrieved because of this new development? Like i said, the Hausa / Fulani divide is something they've been trying to instigate for a while because they feel the north will be weaker because of it. Trust me, it's an exercise in futility.

Well I hope they find a satisfying resolution to the "crisis" which will very difficult at this point since the Governor has gone ahead with his threat to install other emirs.

Going back to the main topic itself, as an outside observer who have been "studying" Nigeria for a while and have spoken to mainly fulanis there, the northwest seems to be a more or less homogeneous with everyone speaking Hausa. Fulanis who live there for generations may identify as such but they only speak Hausa. The term Hausa-Fulani truly gains significance there because the local culture is the result of contribution from multiple groups mostly Hausa and Fulani with the dominant language being Hausa. In that sense, it isn't too different from the French culture today being a product of Gaulish (Gallic), Roman, and Germanic influence. If one is looking for "purer" Fulani, the northeast is the best region to search in. The stereotypical look of the Pullo is that he is lighter, has finer features. I could probably pick a Fulani from a crowd of Yoruba and Igbos even if they were light but I can't from a crowd of Hausa simply because they probably have a parent or grandparent from one of the two groups.
As for the Emirate issue in Kano, I gather that it's mainly in internal issue with the Bayeros trying to get back to Sanusi but I could be wrong.

Ethnicity is a social construct so despite the cohesion they have in the northwest, it'd be wise to not play that card. Ethnic sentiment can lay dormant for decades and then rise just out of a feeling of being threatened. Hausa and Fulani are probably the most connected groups in west Africa. This Kano Emirate business should be handled in the most quiet and diplomatic manner as to not satisfy those seeking to divide them.

OruExpress:
I know Fulani customs very from group to group but those that are marginally or completely un-islamic exhibit a culture that in all reality, is unislamic. Tattoos, whippings, lax rules about sex, unislamic food prep, worship of a God other than Allah, attire for men and women which often involves relative nudity etc.

I saw the post on whipping you are referring and vividly remember the comments on it. Though I don't fully agree with them, I believe it is important to understand why they reacted the way they did.
I'd like to start by stating that culture is not static and is shaped by geography and climate. The most culturally "pure" people on earth are generally the most backward ones. Technologically speaking that it is. One of the reasons that allowed our colonization was precisely our isolation from the rest of world which was possible by the lack on harbors on our coast that support trade with the outside world. The Chinese, a great civilization were dominated by the UK, a country with a fraction of its population because of the self-imposed isolation of the Qing dynasty had kept them from the benefits of the industrial revolution. So to bring up these customs that Fulanis used to follow in majority as proof that they have gone astray only proves that at some point in their history, they made a decision to rid themselves of elements of their culture that they believe wouldn't help them get ahead. There are Fulani herdsmen who will tell you a Pullo (Fula) who doesn't own cows isn't a true Pullo because that's what they believe. They have a mindset frozen in a past. Without contacts with other groups and having the courage to question themselves, the vast majority of Fulanis in west Africa would still be herdsmen, they'd be subject to derision, they'd be disenfranchised as Bororo fulanis are in Cameroon. By "this is not our culture, please take it down", those Fulanis were simply saying that what they have been brought up to believe is the Fulani way (Pulaaku) is contrary to what they were seeing on that video. Therefore, you can say that Islam has changed the culture of ethnic groups in West Africa but it has not replaced it. Not only have Africans africanized the arab sounding names (Momodu, Mamadou, Amadou instead of Muhammad, Ahmed) but they continue to speak , promote their language, maintain cultural traditions as long as they do NOT go against Islam. Traditional Fulani weddings, baby naming ceremonies, graduation ceremonies are completely different from Arab ones. Furthermore, most Fulanis in the western part of our region (Senegal, Guinea, Mali, Sierra Leone, Gambia) have a middle name that is purely Fula (Sadio, Chernor, Julde, Bailo) , they have kept their last name and have a Fula equivalent for most Arab sounding names they chose. I've found some interesting purely fulani names in northern Nigeria like Barkindo which means blessed, Gidado (The loved one), Bodéjo (Red) etc. To the uninformed, these are foreign to the continent but you can't get more Fulani than that.

What I find alarming though, is the arabisation of Africans in some regions. That comment you made about a father getting angry with his daughter because she does not speak arabic is telling about a growing number of families. It's mainly due to wahhabi Islam that seeks to make Bedouin Arabs out of anyone they contact whether African, Pakistani, other Arabs that they persecuted, Indonesian. Wahhabism should be combated but should not be confused with the Islam that west African have been practicing for centuries. Wahhabism is as dangerous to our continent as Evangelical Christians who exploit the naiveté our people are.

Fulaman198:
Mi noddi GorkoSusaay e bandiiko am OmarBah, Wartii!

how have you been brother?

Lilyomi2:

And I'm sure he will be more than willing to teach me at least the basics to help me mingle at my new station. Omarbah will you? Please? You need to see how I communicate with your people in sign language( invented by myself). Fulaman198 is almost always busy.

New station? It depends on the Fulbe (fulanis) you are in contact with. Where are they from?

Fulaman198:


He was referring to Fouta Djallon? Wow interesting and very good. But Fouta Jaloore has a significant amount of Mande loan words and French right? I mean present day Fouta Jaloore.

Min fuu/fof? Mida selli soobajo am!

True for those in towns that have not studied the language. Those that translate the Quran in Pular for example are excellent speakers. They apply the "selluka" or grammar in their writtings and during conversations.

Fulaman198:


True, I enjoy listening to Maasinakoore, it's a very beautiful variant of Fulfulde. How have you been brother? Long time my friend. It's good to see you again bandiraawo. How is your family? how is work?

I do kind of agree with Amadou Hampathe Ba's thought process on Maasina being the Tibet of the Fulbe in West Africa.

I have been good my brother. How about you? Btw, Hampathe Ba was refering to Futa Jallon.

Fulaman198:


The actual difference from the Toorobe and other Fulani sub-groups is that the Fulani of Fouta Tooro are mainly fishermen. They do however speak the purest form of Fulani language today

That is questionable my friend. Those from Macina can claim otherwise. Fulbe from Futa Jallon, those that speak fulfulde well, pride themselves in speaking the most grammatically correct fulfulde. Amadou Hampathe Ba used to say that the region was the "tibet of fulbe in west Africa".
Sumaye no wadi lan jam.

Their hand gestures and the drama from the mother is exactly the same as fulbe from Guinea lol. As you would say, Pullo fof ko Pullo.

I understand it, althought in some passages I get lost. The more I listen to videos on fulfulde, the better my understanding. The ears need to get used to the prononciations.
I have seen this video before, dom't know if it was from nairaland.

Fulaman198:


Hey my fellow Fulani brother from Guinea! Long time! Noy kugal (golle)?

Golle no jokka. Ko yettude Geno.

But theirs is a grave sin as its their traditional vow.
I now totally understand what their cow means to them TRADITIONALLY as its d first of creation but they r now Muslims so y still attach such an importance to cows to the extent of killing everybody?

Also how shd we de-islamize the Fulani n revert them back to their traditional religious views(especially because of number 38 above) cos I think it will be better for everyone.

I think Christians should take a look into Fulani's traditional system to get them off being terrorists.

You want them to move away from Islam and at the same time you see the danger of being attached to their cows?
Their cows are their property just like how the farmers uses the land to provide for his needs. If we have a rational view of these issues l we can solve a lot quicker.

macof:
It's amazing how almost all west African people have traditions of symbolizing river spirits with snakes

That's because it's the same tradition. West Africans have lived under multiethnic states for a long time. We are more alike that we would like to admit.

Fulaman198:


You have not been around for a while, A jombi now?

lol mi jombaali Bandiraawo.
I have been busy with work.

Fulaman198:
OmarBah, Bandiraawo, Allah Hokke ma!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSwPJPZpeDs

how do you like Rica?