PAUL REFERRED TO SATAN AS 'GOD OF THIS WORLD' (2COR.4.4). I BELIEVE IF WE UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS MEANS WE WILL UNDERSTAND WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS! AS 'GOD', HE IS A CREATOR. BUT WHAT HAS HE CREATED? ESSENTIALLY LIES TO DECEIVE AND BRING ABOUT FEAR OF ALL KINDS, MOST IMPORTANTLY THAT OF DEATH. HE HAS ALSO CREATED THE SYSTEMS OF THE WORLD TO OPPOSE THE ORDER, LAW, PRINCIPLES AND WORD OF GOD.

HE HAS COME TO STEAL, TO KILL AND DESTROY, AS JESUS SAID. HE STEALS PEOPLES TIME, TAKES HUMAN LIVES AND DESTROYS DESTINIES. A MAN'S LIFE IS TIME AVAILABLE FOR HIM WHICH IDEALLY SHOULD BE USED FOR GOD HIS CREATOR AND SAVIOUR. BUT SATAN SAYS 'NO' I WILL GET YOU TO WASTE IT' IN ETERNITY TERMS. SO HE GETS MEN TO SPEND THEIR TIME IN PLEASURE, FUN, ENTERTAINMENT AND SUCH WITH LITTLE OR NO TIME FOR GOD. FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO BE SPIRITUAL AND EVEN WANT GOD, HE GIVES RELIGION AND ESOTERIC EXPERIENCE IN OPPOSITION TO THE BIBLE.

HE IS THE ONE BEHIND ALL IMMORAL, CORRUPT AND VIOLENT BEHAVIOUR. GOD SAYS ADAM AND EVE. SATAN SAYS ADAM AND STEVE. GOD HATES ABORTION. SATAN APPROVES IT. THE SCIENTIFIC ESTABLISHMENT IS PRACTICALLY ANTI-GOD. MANY SCIENTISTS DONT BELIEVE IN CREATIONISM BUT EVOLUTION. THE BIBLE SAYS SALVATION IS BY GRACE. RELIGION SAYS IT IS BY WORKS! NATURAL FOODS ARE DISPLACED FOR GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOODS. GOD MADE MAN AND WOMAN. BUT WE HAVE ADDED A THIRD, THE TRANS-GENDER. MEN WANT TO BECOME WOMEN. WOMEN WANT TO BECOME MAN.

MEN CREATE AND FIGHT WARS. TERRORISTS KILL. THE LOVE OF MONEY IS RIFE .....

Thank God for the effort. Jesus ministered not only to the spirit, but also the body and soul. Christianity is not magic. Hospitals are part of God's ways of healing men. Many are sick and what they need may not just be divine healing. Christianity is not averse to the use of medical / surgical intervention. The missionaries came and built hospitals for the people. Let us obey natural health laws and we will trouble God less. Let us use health facilities and follow prescriptions. Cancer can be prevented if we reduce the risks and benefit from early detection. Thank you all.

pls LagosShia, help answer these questions:
1. Who are Amadiyahs?
2. Are they muslims? True muslims?
3. Who is Prophet Ahmad?
4. What is his relationship to Mohammed?
5. Are you Amadiyah?
Thank you

QUOTE
i know Jesus did not order you to insult people
REPLY
True. Sorry, for feeling insulted.

QUOTE
not declaring your so called "truth" based on blind faith
REPLY
LagosShia we live by faith and not by sight. The Bible says ‘the just shall live by faith’ and that we are ‘fools for Christ’s sake’. But we know that the ‘foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men’ and in fact the ‘wisdom of God is foolishness to men’

QUOTE
have proof to counter your pagan beliefs infused by the romans.
REPLY
The root of Christianity preceded any ‘roman’ infusion. Ultimately Christianity is in essence, not a religion or organised church, but a RELATIONSHIP, a family relationship. Remember, the Lord’s pattern prayer, “Our Father in Heaven……, ’’. God calls us ‘my little chilren’.

QUOTE
i will cling on to what is based on knowledge and fact and not blind faith. obedience with no understanding is blindness. i'd rather have knowledge to prove and know eveything than be driven with the zeal of blind faith.
REPLY
Sorry, LagosShia we can’t prove anything. We can only tell the ‘foolish’ story given us. It is God who will prove Himself to you. Even if we manage to convince you, we can’t convert you. It is the business of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said:
7 But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate* won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you.
8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. 9 The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.
10 Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more.
11 Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged. 
Please, this Spirit is not Mohammed, as you think.

QUOTE
1 Thessalonians 5:21  but test them all; hold on to what is good,
REPLY
Yes, but what is to be tested (essentially doctrine) and how is the testing done? By science? By the Quran? It was not yet in existence! No. The test is against the written word of God and the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Light and Truth and by the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:26-27:

26 I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray.
27 But you have received the Holy Spirit,* and he lives within you (certainly this is not Mohammed), so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit* teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

QUOTE
you have no right to declare your religion the "truth" simply because your father or pastor says so. you have no right to declare it the "truth" simply because it is called "christianity". you have no right to declare it the "truth" because you follow that path.

dont tell us what is the "truth", rather show us what is the "truth" and why we should follow it. if you cannot back up your beliefs with acceptable scripture and logic and reasoning your beliefs are a "dud cheque" bound to fail.
REPLY
Sorry again LagosShia, the God of the Bible will show you. Jesus will reveal Himself to you. We know that:

The Wisdom of God 18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.
19 As the Scriptures say, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”* 20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.
21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe.
22 It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom.
23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense. 24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles,* Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength. 26 Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world’s eyes or powerful or wealthy* when God called you.
27 Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.
28 God chose things despised by the world,* things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important.
29 As a result, no one can ever boast in the presence of God. 30 God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin.
31 Therefore, as the Scriptures say, “If you want to boast, boast only about the Lord.”*
QUOTE
you also display your plain and open open stupidity by thinking that only the followers of christianity knows God and others should "find Him". because we follow different faiths by no means i can i say you or a jew dont know God because you dont follow islam, regardless of your distorted belief about God. you can claim you have the "truth as i also believe i have the truth but your insult and imagination to monopolize God is plain stupidity. except if you think i worship the devil,which i dont. as for you, you dont even know who is God. i am not ready to seek, accept or follow 3 gods because that is not what Jesus preached .you do believe in the God with letter big "G" and i dont deny that, but your understanding of Him is deficient and sinful and you will be held accountable for that in the day of judegment.
REPLY
We are not asking you to accept 3 gods. The Trinity is not 3 gods. God is known by faith. He is the one who will reveal Himself to you. The sun is 3 inseparable parts you know, with a body that no one can approach, and light and heat that proceed from it and reach us on earth. The Father is in ‘inapproachable light’, the Bible says. Jesus is the Light that came from the Father. The fire of God, the Holy Spirit, comes from the Father too. If you shut of sunlight, be sure its heat will find you where you are hiding. And yet you cannot separate the three. Just as the sun must not move near the earth, the Father would not, so He sent His Light to guide us and His Fire to empower, purify and comforts us. The sun in its tripartite inseparable nature supports physical life on earth. Spiritual life is ensured by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

QUOTE
as for calling God in arabic, Allah, that is the language of the revelation so plain and simple which you deny. we are not obliged to call Him in any language with pagan roots. as for Jesus himself, you should find out what name he called God. you should also know that the word  Allah is a semitic word from "EL" OR "AL" and the jews refer to Him as Elohim or Eloh or Elah. if that is biting you because the muslims are not a confused herd of sheeps you better learn to live by that because that will not change but as time goes people will only follow that path the more.
REPLY
The Arabs before Mohammed were idolaters. When did the name of Allah appear? Before or with emergence of Islam? Was Allah being worshipped before Mohammed was born? Isn’t a relative of Mohammed (father or uncle) called Abdallah? And what does this name mean? Does it have any link with the name Allah? I am sure if you call God in your language He will hear you.

QUOTE
"ALLAH" IN THE BIBLE":[/b]READ MORE  AND EDUCATE YOURSELF:
http://www.jamaat.net/name/name4.html
REPLY
Thanks for the reference. Give me only 5 references in the Bible where ‘Allah’ is found and will talk about it. But even if Allah’s name is found there, the Bible says:
Phil.2:5-11
5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. 6 Though he was God,*he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges*;he took the humble position of a slave*and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,* 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

QUOTE
you keep telling us and blowing breeze about your "truth" with no evidence. i have a simple request from you TO prove your "truth":
prove to us from your bible,that Jesus is the begotten (not made) son of God" if you can.
prove the "truth" if you can and not fool people that you have the "truth" WITH EMPTY MOUTH  that you cannot prove or support with facts. prove your "truth" with authentic scripture and logic and reasoning.thats not so hard.if i have the truth and i can support it with facts and knowledge, i have every right to cling on to it stubbornly. you can call me whatever you LIKE.i am a proud "coconut head" for holding on to the truth firmly. as for the post you replied on deut. 18:18,i will examine it and refute it in pieces. now the challenge is prove to us from your bible that Jesus is the "begotten son" of God. do it if you can. and i will show you why he is not even in your bible. and then we will see who is more fitted to be called "coconut head" for the wrong reaons.


REPLY
The evidence we have is the Bible which you don’t believe. God gave it to men so that when they read it they will believe it and He will respond to their desire to find Him. The Jews wanted signs. The Greeks wanted proofs, hard facts, etc just as you do. They got the gospel and Jesus as its focus instead. Some accepted, others rejected it.

We can’t know God by mere reasoning, analysis or research except He reveals Himself to you. Beyond having mere knowledge of God He wants us relate to Him closer than we can do with any human or thing. He seeks our intimacy, not that He needs it or can’t do without us. No, but He wants us to be blessed and kept from the evil one.

Jesus said in John:
Chapter 6
43 But Jesus replied, “Stop complaining about what I said.
44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
45 As it is written in the Scriptures,* ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
46 (Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.)
-------
61 Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining, so he said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again?
63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

Chapter 7
16 So Jesus told them, “My message is not my own; it comes from God who sent me.
17 Anyone who wants to do the will of God will know whether my teaching is from God or is merely my own.
18 Those who speak for themselves want glory only for themselves, but a person who seeks to honor the one who sent him speaks truth, not lies.

Chapter 14 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit 15 “If you love me, obey* my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate,* who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.* 18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.” 22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?” 23 Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. 24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me.

KNOW JESUS, KNOW LIFE. NO JESUS, NO LIFE

Jesus loves you, LagosShia. We love you too.

QUOTE
“He has proven to you by the above that you have truth and lie together in the Bible. You wanna know the truth real the Quran, and why are you omoimole and you are a keferi? You opted out of Islam, leave Imole out of your name and say you are purely Keferi”
REPLY
Thank you for helping LagosShia in responding to my comment. I wish he will reply himself. Nevertheless the forum is open to all. So you are very free to respond to my post.

QUOTE
“He has proven to you by the above that you have truth and lie together in the Bible”
REPLY
Please kindly give at least five examples of these in each of the old and new testaments for our education. In addition, explain how you as a Muslim obeys the identified truths in the Bible.

QUOTE
To “You wanna know the truth real (read) the Quran”
REPLY
The Quran is not the source. You see the “truth” is not just what is written down or spoken, it is a Living Person! Jesus proclaims that “I (JESUS) am….the Truth” (John 14:6). He says in another place “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:32) and just four verses later He says “If the Son, therefore, shall make you free, you shall be free indeed” (It is my heartfelt prayer that you will allow Jesus Christ to make you free. Believe me). Furthermore, what Jesus says, is not only the truth, it is Life itself. He says in John 6:63 “….the words I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life”

QUOTE
“…and why are you omoimole and you are a keferi? You opted out of Islam, (I WAS NEVER IN IT!) leave Imole out of your name and say you are purely Keferi”
REPLY
And why do I call myself “Omoimole”? It is because I am. Jesus not only said “I am the Light of the world” (John 8:12), He equally said that those who believe in Him are also “light of the world” (Mat. 5:14) and the Bible calls us “children of light” (1Thess.5:5). This is why I call myself Omoimole.

You nicknamed yourself “Sweetnecta”. I absolutely have no problems with that. Even if you are ‘poisonous’, it is nobody’s business to say you should not call yourself what you have chosen to call yourself. Sweetnecta, do you know that some call themselves Stone, Wood, Black, Esubiyi, Shangoyemi, Jesutunbi, Mohammed, etc. I have chosen to call myself Omoimole, please let it be. We are in a free world. So what you say does not change that fact.

As for being “purely keferi”, it is your opinion. To you as a Muslim, yes I am a “keferi” and by the grace of God, a very pure one for that matter. I believe in Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible and not the one portrayed in your Quran. If you call me a bastard, I know that I am not. I have a Father, He knows me and I know Him. He is with me all the time. He can become your Father too, if you let Him. He “gave” you, Sweetnecta, His Son, just as He did to me; and if you, Sweetnecta, “receives” Jesus Christ, you will have Life and will become a “child of God” (John 1:12, 3:16). 

JOHN 1
10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him.
11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him.
12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

QUOTE
“Mary was married and remained virgin?Omoimole,you will let a virgin last 2 hours still a virgin, when everyone is gone? How many children Mary had for old man Joseph, except none?”
REPLY
Please, address the issue of who Abraham attempted to sacrifice: Ishmael or Issac? And where Jesus was born: under a tree or in a manger?.

Your comment on “Joseph, the husband of Mary” was rather incoherent. It is not clear to me. I was not inferring to the “perpetual virginity” of Mary, but rather that Joseph was Mary’s husband and Jesus’s foster father. But know that Mary had other children through Joseph, after the birth of Jesus. She was never perpetually a virgin. Those who say so are in error. The Bibles says that Joseph “knew her not (did not have sexual intercourse with her) until she has brought forth her firstborn son” (Mat.1:25).

You asked, “Omoimole, you will let a virgin last 2 hours still a virgin, when everyone is gone?”. I will by the grace of God. To be tempted is not a sin, to fall in temptation is. God is the one who grants power to overcome temptation. So I also ask you “Sweetnecta, you will let a virgin last 2 hours still a virgin, when everyone is gone?”. Isn’t sex ás sweet as nectar?

ISSUE RAISED
On Muslims and going to ‘hell’ first, before aljana, it is clear from Sura 19:65-72.
REPLY
You have the Quran, check it out and give me a feedback.

[19:65] The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them; you shall worship Him and steadfastly persevere in worshipping Him. Do you know of anyone who equals Him?
[19:66] The human being asks, "After I die, do I come back to life?"
[19:67] Did the human being forget that we created him already, and he was nothing?
[19:68] By your Lord, we will certainly summon them, together with the devils, and will gather them around Hell, humiliated.
[19:69] Then we will pick out from each group the most ardent opponent of the Most Gracious.
[19:70] We know full well those who are most deserving of burning therein.
Everyone Sees Hell*
[19:71] Every single one of you must see it; this is an irrevocable decision of your Lord (Allah).
[19:72] Then we rescue the righteous, and leave the transgressors in it, humiliated.

MUST YOU SEE HELL AND THEN PRAY THAT ALLAH WILL SOMEHOW COUNT YOU RIGHTEOUS TO BE RESCUED FROM THERE? THAT EVERY MUSLIM MUST SEE HELL FIRST, IS AN IRREVOCABLE DECISION OF ALLAH. I AM SURE YOU KNOW THAT MOHAMMED ALSO WAS NOT SURE OF SALVATION!!!

BUT JESUS OFFERS YOU A BETTER DEAL. HEAR HIM IN JOHN 5:24:
24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

6:38-40:
38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

The Bible says no one is righteous, that all have sinned and fallen short of God’s righteous standards and demands. What God demands is 100% righteousness and no man can make it. So the person with 99% righteousness is as unqualified for heaven as the person with 1% righteousness. This is why God decided to make getting to Heaven FREE OF CHARGE to ALL, while Jesus paid for it. Who will not be happy to be relieved of a heavy, dragging load?. Sweetnectar, you self-righteousness will not do. The Bible calls our self-righteousness ‘filthy rag’ (Isa. 64:6):

6. We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags….

ISSUE RAISED
Is it true that Mohammed married a juvenile?

“It is false. If you know a juvenile that he (AS)  married (RA), give me her name and her birth date relative to the advent of his prophethood. This way, you can establish a time line from which we can argue upon.

REPLY
On Mohammed marrying an underage: it is true, sir, very true. Her name was Aishat. She was 6 or 7 when she was giving in marriage to Mohammed. The marriage itself was consummated when she was 9 or 10. Check the ref below from Wikipedia:

Aisha was initially betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mut'im, a Muslim whose father, though pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. When Khawlah bint Hakim suggested that Muhammad marry Aisha after the death of Muhammad's first wife (Khadijah bint Khuwaylid), the previous agreement regarding marriage of Aisha with ibn Mut'im was put aside by common consent.[6] British historian William Montgomery Watt suggests that Muhammad hoped to strengthen his ties with Abu Bakr;[6] the strengthening of ties commonly served as a basis for marriage in Arabian culture.[7]
According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was engaged to Muhammad and nine when the marriage took place.[6][8][9] American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."[8] This issue of her virginity was of great importance to early historians who supported the Abbasid Caliphate. These historians considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate over the succession to Muhammad.[8]
Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated.[6][8][9][10][11][12] Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.[8] The marriage was delayed until after the Hijra, or migration to Medina, in 622; Aisha and her older sister Asma bint Abi Bakr only moved to Medina after Muhammad had already migrated there. After this, the wedding was celebrated very simply. The sources do not offer much more information about Aisha's childhood years, but mention that after the wedding, she continued to play with her toys, and that Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[1
There are other references, but this will do for lack of space.

QUOTE
“Jesus himself criticized the Jews not following the old testament”
REPLY
–Yes, He criticized the Jews (people), not the old testament (the writing)! Haba! They did not follow the word of God in the Old Testament. There disobedience did not change the word of God! Are Muslim not also criticized by their preachers for not obeying their Quran?

QUOTE
“He did not quote the whole testament”
REPLY
Are you saying “whole” or did you mean ‘old’? Jesus did not need to quote the entire testament to make His point. But He certainly quoted several passages of the Old Testament in His ministry.

QUOTE
“actually declared that the pen of the scribes have written what is not true, as to indicate corruption in the OT, the reason he was redirecting them to truth”
REPLY
Which scribes were being referred to by Jesus? And what is that which they have written? No, Jesus did not actually declare that “the pen of the scribes have written what is not true”. The scribes He was referring to were the scribes, who were the teachers of the Law (the Old Testament) of His time, and NOT, the prophets who were the writers of the testament. These contemporary scribes MISINTERPRETED the Old Testament and taught the people so! This was Jesus’s quarrel with them. Please, read e.g. Matthew 23. Therefore, contrary to what you want us to believe, Jesus was not indicating corruption of the Old Testament, RATHER, He was exposing the corrupt interpretation and practices endorsed by many of these scribes.

I have talked about the subject of ‘truth’ above. The truth that Jesus was redirecting the people to  was, not just what He said, or the truth of the Old Testament which He affirmed, but to Himself as the one who fulfilled ALL the demands of the Old Testament in word and deed.   

QUOTE
“You have already by your 400 years defended the Quran”
REPLY
Smart guy, how have I done that?

QUOTE
“Jesus did not speak about the place he was born”
REPLY
No, He did not and why should He? Did He need to and He refused? It was not recorded that anyone asked Him. The Bible made both the town and place of childbirth clear though:

Prophetically in Micah 5:2 (Old Testament):
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, are only a small village among all the people of Judah.  Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you, one whose origins are from of old, from evalasting.

Historically, in fulfilment of this prophesy in Luke 2:1-7 (New Testament)
1 At that time the Roman emperor, Augustus, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the Roman Empire.
2 (This was the first census taken when Quirinius was governor of Syria.)
3 All returned to their own ancestral towns to register for this census.
4 And because Joseph was a descendant of King David, he had to go to Bethlehem in Judea, David’s ancient home. He travelled there from the village of Nazareth in Galilee.
5 He took with him Mary, his fiancée, who was now obviously pregnant. 6 And while they were there, the time came for her baby to be born.
7 She gave birth to her first child, a son. She wrapped him snugly in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no lodging available for them.

On the other hand the Quran (written 600 years later) says in Sura 19:22-33:
The Birth of Jesus
[19:22] When she bore him, she isolated herself to a faraway place.
[19:23] The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "(I am so ashamed I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten."
[19:24] (The infant) called her from beneath her, saying, "Do not grieve. Your Lord has provided you with a stream.
[19:25] "If you shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will drop ripe dates for you.
[19:26] "Eat and drink, and be happy. When you see anyone, say, `I have made a vow of silence [to the Most Gracious]*; I am not talking today to anyone.' '
[19:27] She came to her family, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have committed something that is totally unexpected.
[19:28] "O descendant of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother unchaste."
The Infant Makes a Statement
[19:29] She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?"
[19:30] (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
[19:31] "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live.
[19:32] "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected." (This is interesting, I thought you guys said Jesus did not die. Some of you say He fainted …….and later fled to Kashmir (Ahmadiya / Deedat stuff). Discussion for another time?)

Sweetnecta, you cleverly dodged this area

QUOTE
“nor did he speak about the sons of Abraham and which one of them was to be slaughtered”
REPLY
No, Jesus talked about Abraham and Isaac e.g. in Mat.22:31-32 below:

31 “But now, as to whether there will be a resurrection of the dead—haven’t you ever read about this in the Scriptures? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said,* 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’* So he is the God of the living, not the dead.”

Jesus knew already, that the Old Testament recorded that it was Isaac that was to be sacrificed by Abraham typifying what and how God would also do to Him, Jesus in the future to be “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the whole world”, (including your sins and mine), as John the Babtist testified in John 1:29.

QUOTE
“By the way, Jews used to make Hajj”
REPLY
So what? Sweetnectar, this is not the issue before us. I have no business with that. And that they did so “according to the calling of Abraham” – This must be in your Koran, not in the Bible.

QUOTE
“please research it”
REPLY
That Jews make Hajj? I wont. It is irrelevant to our discussion.

QUOTE
“Now why would the Jews make Hajj and slaughter animals in Makka?
REPLY
Direct the questions to interested Jews.
On the other hand, God gave them the system of offering sacrifices in the Old Testament from Genesis to Deuteronomy. All pointing to the Ultimate Sacrifice after which there should be no more sacrifice:

ISAIAH 53 (700 years before Christ)
1. Who has believed our message? (SWEET NECTAR, PLS BELIEVE) To whom has the Lord revealed his powerful arm? 2. My servant grew up in the Lord’s presence like a tender green shoot, like a root in dry ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 3. He was despised and rejected— a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care. 4. Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; It was our sorrows* that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, punishment for his own sins! 5. But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed. 6. All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all. 7.  He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8. Unjustly condemned, he was led away.* No one cared that he died without descendants, that his life was cut short in midstream.* But he was struck down for the rebellion of my people. 9. He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave.  10. But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands. 11.  When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. (Sweetnectar, He is waiting for you) 12…….He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.

QUOTE
“But we can all read. Did brother LagosShia say something that was not in the Bible, already?”
REPLY
Yes, we can read. Even the devil does. He quotes the Bible too, even to Jesus! Cultists, mystics, Hindus, atheists, evolutionists, Muslims, etc read the Bible. They all have chosen to ignore its truth

ISSUE RAISED
About similarities in relation to Moses, Jesus and Mohammed.
REPLY
Jesus stands out unequal. You see him ‘hidden’ in the Old Testament and revealed in the New. Reference is made to Him directly and indirectly in the Old Testament. Jesus is the Message in the entire Bible.

QUOTE
“Jesus promised nothing to the Christians”
REPLY
On the contrary He did, so many times. Examples abound.

JOHN 14
1 “Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. 2 There is more than enough room in my Father’s home.* If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?* 3 When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am” ……. 6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.* From now on, you do know him and have seen him!” ………,  12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. 13 You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. 14 Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit 15 “If you love me, obey* my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate,* who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.* 18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.” ……,
23 Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. 24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me…,
25 I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. 26 But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you. 27 “I am leaving you with a gift—peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give is a gift the world cannot give. So don’t be troubled or afraid. 28 Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again.

QUOTE
“The Christians borrowed his name for a religion that he knew nothing about and did not sanction”
REPLY
No, we did not borrow His name from somewhere, Sweetnectar, His divine name is Emmanuel, which means ‘God with us’ (Isa. 7:14 and Mat.1:22,23),

22 All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet: 23 “Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel,*which means ‘God with us.’”

while His human name is Jesus according to (Mat.1:24,25 and Luke 2:21):

Matthew 1
24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.
Luke 2
21 Eight days later, when the baby was circumcised, he was named Jesus, the name given him by the angel even before he was conceived.

Thanks friends for your responses and candor. I believe that the confusion over this matter has to do with the following and more:
1. the meaning and content / nature of the tribulation
2. who the author of the tribulation is
3. who the agent is
4. who the target is
5. the view of the established Church - dominantly pre-trib
6. the relative disinterest in the subject by many Christians
7. the refusal by many to be like the 'Berean' Christians and to
    'search the scripture' as Christ admonished 
8. the equating of 'great tribulation' with the 'wrath of God'
9. the limiting of the meaning of what Anti-Christ represents
10. the identity of the 'tribulation saints',
11. the fear of being branded heretic, when many respected ministers and Church leaders suscribe to pre-trib teaching,  among others
By the grace of God, we will look at these and related issues one by one.
Maranatha

My dear Yefet,

Pls can I speak to you in English. I am Yoruba and can and write the language fairly well. But if the purpose of this forum is to communicate, share and exchange a message, i am not sure if you are striking the right cords with members. I personally consider the topic 'Mark of the Beast' important, which some of us, particularly those of us 'Born Agains' are not paying attention to.

The Book of Revelations is almost a no-go area for many believers in Christ; and yet we are expected to study it and live by its message. The coming of Christ keeps getting nearer and nearer, but the Church seems oblivious. God will help us. Pls let's talk in English. It doesn't mean we dont respect our mother tongue. We do. More later.

Remain blessed
Maranatha

Thank you JeSoul.

I agree that we should be ready at all times, but the fact remains that these 3 views cant all be correct. That we can find bible passages supporting all the 3 views is not really so. This appears so only because of the interpretations we give those passages. In reality what the Holy Spirit is saying remains. So, the question is: What is He saying to the Church. He is the Author and Interpreter.

I am aware that in many theological schools the 3 views are taught for 'balance'. I am also aware that the issue has caused some strong (ultimately unnecessary) divisions of different degrees of seriousness. The truth, however, is that, we should not stop looking at it. I think the issue is major and is not like the issue of using or not using earrings or women puting on trousers. We can disagree on minors, but we should not miss it on the majors.

I am trying to use the medium to 'let us reason together'. I have my view, but I am at alert to consider the other views.

Remain blessed
Maranatha   

(dear reader pls join this discussion)

Pls, brethren, i need your replies / comments. Let's discuss it.
We will know the truth and it shall set us free.

Each of these views has implications for believers who are waiting for the coming of the Lord.

I am concerned because there seems to be less attention to this topic in churches and ministries, with greater focus on miracles, prosperity, victory over enemies, etc although many of us will agree that we are in the last days.

Are we getting ready as we should? The Bible says 'the time is short', that we are in 'perilous times', and that the 'days are evil'. It seems we are preoccupied with surviving and living in this present world.
How conscious are we about the Anti-Christ? Will this Man of Sin deal with the Church? Are we going to escape Him?

My concern is that if believers will be dealt with by the Anti-Christ, and we are being told that the Church will escape him before he appears in the world, many may fall away when they meet him for lack of preparation, because they have been told that they would not be around when the Beast rules the world. What says you?. Maranatha

Dear LagosShia,

Pls, kindly let me know which part of the Bible is really true and to be believed, and which part is false to be ignored. I ask this question because on the one hand you quote some passages and claim they fit into Islamic / Koranic perception. On the  other hand you quote some other passages and claim they are not to be accepted.

Secondly, how come the Koran says Ishmael was the one Abraham tried to sacrifice to God? The Bible says it was Issac. How come the Koran says Mary gave birth to Jesus alone, unassisted, under some tree (?palm/date), brought the baby back home and the baby began to talk same day? The Bible says Jesus was born in a manger in Bethelehem. Joseph, the husband of Mary, was there at least. How come Mohammed himself was not sure of aljana? Why must men including devout moslems first go to hell before Allah decides who comes out?, (you can forgive my ignorance). Is it true that Mohammed married a juvenile?

Mohammed, Islam and the Koran appeared 600 years after Jesus had finished His earthly ministry. The Old Testament was already in existence 400 years before Christ physically appeared on the world scene painstakingly preserved by the Jews and Jesus quoted from there. The events recorded in it were relatively near the times of their writings. Suddenly, the Koran appeared centuries after and Ishmael replaced Issac. Jesus was no longer born in a manger. It is apparent that both the Bible and the Koran, Christianity and Islam can not both be right and be from One Source.      

Finally, I thought Christians and Jews 'own' the Bible. Shouldn't they be the ones to tell you what the Bibles says? How come you are the ones to explain their book to them? If you dont respond to any of these, pls respond to the first querry. May God open our eyes more clearly. Amen. (after, let us talk about what Mohammed promised moslems and what Jesus promised christians) Thank you

dear catholic and other friends. jesus christ is waiting for you. i pray that his love will overshadow you and draw you to himself. may he reveal himself to you in the most compelling way. time is running out fast for all of us. may we not be the loser at the end. god 'gave his son' (john 3:16), the one who 'receives him' god gives power to become a 'son' (john 1:10-12). the door remains open.

OUR MOTIVES OFTEN INFLUENCE WHAT AND HOW WE SEE THINGS. YOU CAN SEE WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE BIBLE. YOU CAN ALSO BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE. THE DEVIL KNOWS A LOT ABOUT THE BIBLE MUCH MORE THAN THE AVERAGE BIBLE-READING CHRISTIAN. HE HAS BEEN IN THE BIZNESS OF CREATING CONFUSION AND DOUBT ABOUT THIS BOOK IN THE MINDS OF MANY. WHAT APPEAR TO YOU AS CONTRADICTIONS WILL END UP BEING 'CONTRADICTIONS' WHEN YOU ARE IN TOUCH WITH THE SPIRIT BEHIND THE BOOK. BECAUSE, PAULS SAYS 'THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE'. THE WISDOM OF GOD IS FOOLISHNESS TO MEN. WITH MAN THE WAY UP IS UP. BUT WITH GOD THE WAY UP IS DOWN. MAN'S WAY IS LOVE THOSE WHO LOVE YOU, BUT GOD'S WAY SAYS LOVE EVEN YOUR ENEMIES (NOT MINDING SOME WHO CURSE THEIR REAL AND PERCEIVED ENEMIES).

i testify that faith and healing are for today. i was healed of about 3 days of fever, headaches and body pains years back without medication when brethren prayed for me. I got up immediately from my weakness to do my things. My sister also, by the grace of God recently, has been healed of her kidney related condition through the prayer of God's people. Thank God for medical and health sciences. we can avail of them when the need arises. God gave humanity this grace to limit the devastation of sin on our health and well-being. but God can be invited, based on His word, to heal us from both medically curable and incurable diseases. This is higher grace!

i think this topic is valid and timely. i think we need to be sure because many Christians, churches and ministries are not giving due attention to end-times issues. obviously, all the 3 'time' views of the rapture can not be true. which of these does the scripture support?.

hmmmm! my opinion is let us do what we believe. you believe in tithing, go on with it. if you dont, it is your decision. god will sort everyone out.

pls friends let us have fun, but not this one. haba! na idle talk be dis. let us move on to serious bizness. how we fit chekmate corruption for naijaland.