Here is the starting point from a Christian though he lied here!

Mikecold:
Muslims tradition of slaughtering Rams stands very strong in Islam yet it is a borrowed tradition practiced by Abraham the father of the Jews

The practice was performed on Isaac who was the father of the chosen people.

There was a reason for that event but Muslims Know nothing about it, they claim it was a test of Abraham to kill isaac.

But if you look at the Bible clearly it wasn't a test

Genesis 22:5

And Abraham said into his young men, abide ye here with the ass, and i and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you

Abraham here was telling his men he was coming again with Isaac after going up, you call it a test but he knew the outcome of the supposed test, does this still make it a test?

Genesis 22: 8

And Abraham said, my son God would provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering, so they both went together

Abraham couldn't have known the future before God and it's outcome, he definitely was briefed that it was a symbolic act he should emback on for something bigger

Indeed God provided his own sacrifice for his own self.

Why didn't God just tell Abraham to go look for a ram somewhere else to replace isaac?

Why did he provide an impossible ram in the midst of nowhere at a mountain where ram naturally shouldn't be found?

This was a reference to Abraham on his son whom he would send as sacrifice later on

He used Isaac as an illustration because Isaac was the begotten son of Abraham just like him having Jesus

This was why God had to wait for Isacc to be born and didn't use Ishmael

Abraham was aware it wasn't a test to him, and he wasn't going to kill isaac

So when Muslims gloat about this in ignorance without understanding the significance of that event I so laugh at them because they accept God provided a ram to sacrifice to his own self

Yet they don't accept how God can provide Jesus as sacrifice to his own self

They say God doesn't do human sacrifice as reference to Jesus sacrifice yet they don't understand why same God would even fathom such an "ungodly test" for a man to kill his only son

This is not even a matter of whether Abraham did the act but for such God to even voice it out means he doesn't see anything wrong with it and it makes sense if he can't accept such only because man can't give him a pure sacrifice but he can provide his own pure loved son as all expantiated in that story

Some lies in Red, we can say all what he typed up there is false. See below

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham:... Take now thy son thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of". (Gen. 22: 1-2).

No one already knows the outcome of a test otherwise the validity of the test is being questioned. How can Abraham have known the outcome of the test the Lord would give him? Was Abraham wiser that the Lord?

For un imbécile answering antichristian what is your obsession with Christianity

[img]https://media./images/26e31cb0f2fc469c061cf11d70c39f66/tenor.gif[/img]
[img]https://media1./images/31f29b3fcc20a486f44454209914266a/tenor.gif?itemid=17942299[/img]

When would you ever stop taking sentiment in a debate and look at things holistically?

The Bible here is our guide to the events, none of us lived in that time but let's exame history forensically (without religious bias here)

Genesis 22:5

And Abraham said into his young men, abide ye here with the ass, and i and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you

Abraham here is not under duress to say this, this is his servants he has command over them, he tells them he is coming again with the lad

He could as well say i am coming, he can remain mute and say wait, but he adds that he is "coming" back with a child that supposedly should not come back

Genesis 22: 8

And Abraham said, my son God would provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering, so they both went together

Again Isaac asks his father about the lamb because obviously they have instruments meant for sacrifice, and Abraham replies God would provide which he already knew he would.

Mind you Abraham never told lies unless he feared a higher authority (eg the king he deceived with Sarah as his sister)

Abraham would never have used God's name to also tell a lie, so he spoke what he was aware of

Does that mean he wasn't told to take Isaac for a kill, yes he was told

Can you call that test, I call it a symbolic instruction because he knew the outcome which invalidates a test

God by the way can test you but not beyond your limit so I do not call the Bible a liar for saying he tested Abraham

Take it as a student going for a make or Mar "exam" yet he already knows he has passed for just showing up

The exam (test, temptation) as a name does not stop him from knowing the outcome

Knowing the outcome doesn't mean he wouldn't go through the process of the exam.

It doesn't invalidate it as an "exam" by name or process but it is not an exam based on the strength of content needed that is absent

Mikecold:
When would you ever stop taking sentiment in a debate and look at things holistically?

The Bible here is our guide to the events, none of us lived in that time but let's exame history forensically (without religious bias here)

Genesis 22:5

And Abraham said into his young men, abide ye here with the ass, and i and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you

Abraham here is not under duress to say this, this is his servants he has command over them, he tells them he is coming again with the lad

He could as well say i am coming, he can remain mute and say wait, but he adds that he is "coming" back with a child that supposedly should not come back

Genesis 22: 8

And Abraham said, my son God would provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering, so they both went together

Again Isaac asks his father about the lamb because obviously they have instruments meant for sacrifice, and Abraham replies God would provide which he already knew he would.

Mind you Abraham never told lies unless he feared a higher authority (eg the king he deceived with Sarah as his sister)

Abraham would never have used God's name to also tell a lie, so he spoke what he was aware of

Does that mean he wasn't told to take Isaac for a kill, yes he was told

Can you call that test, I call it a symbolic instruction because he knew the outcome which invalidates a test

God by the way can test you but not beyond your limit so I do not call the Bible a liar for saying he tested Abraham

Take it as a student going for a make or Mar "exam" yet he already knows he has passed for just showing up

The exam (test, temptation) as a name does not stop him from knowing the outcome

Knowing the outcome doesn't mean he wouldn't go through the process of the exam.

It doesn't invalidate it as an "exam" by name or process but it is not an exam based on the strength of content needed that is absent

YOU ARE THE REAL ANTI CHRIST

What's this thread about for those who don't know

Muslims celebrate almost all festivities by slaughtering Rams and calling it a memorial to Abraham wanting to sacrifice Isaac

But i have shown the Op that it was more than a test, it was a symbolic act by God to reveal Some one who would also give his begotten son in the future

Some one who would provide a sacrifice for himself to himself in the future

The very thing Muslims contradict about Christianity but celebrate it's symbolism multiple times every year

ANTIGAY:
YOU ARE THE REAL ANTI CHRIST

Please don't derail this thread if your brain can't input any thing other than caplocks

Mikecold:
Please don't derail this thread if your brain can't input any thing other than caplocks

No need to abuse him cos he's actually correct about you.

To put it mildly, you made a terrible mistake by saying Abraham knew the outcome of God's test ahead as the context of the biblical narration suggests otherwise.

It's better you admit your mistake rather than...

Mikecold:
What's this thread about for those who don't know

Muslims celebrate almost all festivities by slaughtering Rams and calling it a memorial to Abraham wanting to sacrifice Isaac

Another mistake! We believe it was Ishmael the first born not Isaac.

But i have shown the Op that it was more than a test, it was a symbolic act by God to reveal Some one who would also give his begotten son in the future

Some one who would provide a sacrifice for himself to himself in the future

Your symbolism is flawed. That Abraham almost sacrificed one son should mean that your God almost sacrifice his own son.

You are saying God represented Abraham. Jesus represented Isaac. But you need to give us who represented Sarah? Hagar? Ishmael?

And since Abraham didn't eventually kill his son, why then will God kill his?

God should have provided a lamb to save his son too!

The very thing Muslims contradict about Christianity but celebrate it's symbolism multiple times every year

We don't contradict anything. You're the one mistaken! Abraham was given a ram to sacrifice in place of his son.

We celebrate this too since Abraham was a Muslim!

AntiChristian:
No need to abuse him cos he's actually correct about you.

To put it mildly, you made a terrible mistake by saying Abraham knew the outcome of God's test ahead as the context of the biblical narration suggests otherwise.

It's better you admit your mistake rather than...

That's not an insult

If someone feels he doesn't have the brain capacity to engage in a debate he should decline

Those childish talk without reference to why it is made should not be joined on my mention

I made no mistake and you can't blackmail me into accepting your bias outside the obvious evidences we are supposed to restrict our selves to

AntiChristian:


Another mistake! We believe it was Ishmael the first born not Isaac.

Can you just present your proof in your own Quran where it says it was ishamael instead of talking

I really don't understand why Muslims would cherry pick one part of a story and add their version in another

This was first recorded in the Torah which Mohamed swore he believes it's stories and the one who sent it

Your symbolism is flawed. That Abraham almost sacrificed one son should mean that your God almost sacrifice his own son.

If you don't put the pieces together you would never see the big picture

I have established that what Abraham went through wasn't a test since he could sware by God's name that God would provide which God did, he would have committed a big sin if God never revealed this to him

Conclusion - God revealed it to him

Since this is true and Abraham didn't sin by making an allegation against God, it means this task God obviously ask him to perform was more of a symbolic gesture.

God could not have been fooling around with Abraham to go distance when he just revealed the end product of a supposed test.

It was symbolic which Abraham may not be fully aware of

God uses so many symbolic acts just like when he told the isralietes through Moses to paint their doors with blood of a lamb

This is another old testament (since you wouldn't believe new testament) act of Jesus blood saving the chosen from unsaved later to happen in the new testament

How can you explain to me that God here didn't have power to kill all Egyptian firstborn and differentiate the Jews firstborn?

This is a story your Quran believes happened but has no clue why?

It just shattered your argument that the symbolism is a lie because i can give you more symbolism of the old testament all about Jesus.

You are saying God represented Abraham. Jesus represented Isaac. But you need to give us who represented Sarah? Hagar? Ishmael?

When God had an encounter was he having it with Abraham, Sarah, Haggar, ishamael?

He had encounter with only Abraham and his seed which he told him would be like the stars.

And that seed was represented in isaac, God himself told Abraham ishamael wasn't the one he has promised him

And since Abraham didn't eventually kill his son, why then will God kill his?

God should have provided a lamb to save his son too!

You miss the part where Jesus wasn't in anyway needing saving but rather was the one helping with the saving

When you say God killed his son, is like you saying he was the one who brought knife and slaughtered him which is incorrect

God is holy and exist in three form just like you do, Jesus is one of that form.

He comes on earth to take man's form, man kills him not God on the cross because they don't agree with his doctrines

Because he is man he can die in nature, he exchanges his holiness that has never left him for man's sin and then resurrects

Don't forget Jesus is external he can't die so asking why he died makes no sense because he can't actually die but it was more of taking the permanent punishment for man as a temporary pain in death

If you argue about one's righteousness covering for all, can you tell us why Adam unrighteousness covers all men too?

We don't contradict anything. You're the one mistaken! Abraham was given a ram to sacrifice in place of his son.

We celebrate this too since Abraham was a Muslim!

Yeah Abraham was given a ram in place of his son because Abraham already knew God would provide a ram instead of his son even before leaving the house

Nope Abraham wasn't a muslim

Mikecold:
That's not an insult

If someone feels he doesn't have the brain capacity to engage in a debate he should decline

Those childish talk without reference to why it is made should not be joined on my mention

I made no mistake and you can't blackmail me into accepting your bias outside the obvious evidences we are supposed to restrict our selves to

Your mistake is obvious. And if it is deliberate then you become a liar.
You said the happening was not a test.
But the Bible said it was a test. 1st lie.

2nd lie
Abraham was aware it wasn't a test to him, and he wasn't going to kill Isaac.
The Bible says God told Abraham to go and kill his son.

more lies that is not substantiated from the Bible
Abraham here was telling his men he was coming again with Isaac after going up, you call it a test but he knew the outcome of the supposed test, does this still make it a test?

Abraham couldn't have known the future before God and it's outcome, he definitely was briefed that it was a symbolic act he should emback on for something bigger

Indeed God provided his own sacrifice for his own self.

AntiChristian:


Your mistake is obvious. And if it is deliberate then you become a liar.
You said the happening was not a test.
But the Bible said it was a test. 1st lie.

2nd lie
Abraham was aware it wasn't a test to him, and he wasn't going to kill Isaac.
The Bible says God told Abraham to go and kill his son.

more lies that is not substantiated from the Bible
Abraham here was telling his men he was coming again with Isaac after going up, you call it a test but he knew the outcome of the supposed test, does this still make it a test?

Abraham couldn't have known the future before God and it's outcome, he definitely was briefed that it was a symbolic act he should emback on for something bigger

Indeed God provided his own sacrifice for his own self.

simple question for you?

Did Abraham tell his son God would provide
himself a sacrifice when his son asked him what would be used for sacrifice?

Mikecold:
Can you just present your proof in your own Quran where it says it was ishamael instead of talking

I really don't understand why Muslims would cherry pick one part of a story and add their version in another

This was first recorded in the Torah which Mohamed swore he believes it's stories and the one who sent it

Ishmael was implied from the Qur'an 37:100-113
My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous.
So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.
And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
We called to him, "O Abraham,
You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, this was the clear trial.
And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
And We left for him [favorable mention] among later generations:
"Peace upon Abraham."
Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.
And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
And We blessed him and Isaac. But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself.
……………………………………………………………………………..
Muhammad believed in the Torah revealed to Moses and not the one written by men of the OT!

If you don't put the pieces together you would never see the big picture

I have established that what Abraham went through wasn't a test since he could sware by God's name that God would provide which God did, he would have committed a big sin if God never revealed this to him

Conclusion - God revealed it to him

Where did God reveal this to him? What was the command God gave him?

Since this is true and Abraham didn't sin by making an allegation against God, it means this task God obviously ask him to perform was more of a symbolic gesture.

God could not have been fooling around with Abraham to go distance when he just revealed the end product of a supposed test.

It was symbolic which Abraham may not be fully aware of

God uses so many symbolic acts just like when he told the isralietes through Moses to paint their doors with blood of a lamb

This is another old testament (since you wouldn't believe new testament) act of Jesus blood saving the chosen from unsaved later to happen in the new testament

How can you explain to me that God here didn't have power to kill all Egyptian firstborn and differentiate the Jews firstborn?

This is a story your Quran believes happened but has no clue why?

It just shattered your argument that the symbolism is a lie because i can give you more symbolism of the old testament all about Jesus.

Where in the Bible did Abraham mentioned that this was a symbolic test that represent Jesus's crucifixion?

When God had an encounter was he having it with Abraham, Sarah, Haggar, ishamael?

He had encounter with only Abraham and his seed which he told him would be like the stars.

And that seed was represented in isaac, God himself told Abraham ishamael wasn't the one he has promised him

God never had an encounter with them and I never said so! In your symbolism, Abraham is God, the son killed is Jesus, who is Sarah, Hagar and Ishmael? Abraham has two seeds. One was not disowned!

You miss the part where Jesus wasn't in anyway needing saving but rather was the one helping with the saving

When you say God killed his son, is like you saying he was the one who brought knife and slaughtered him which is incorrect

God is holy and exist in three form just like you do, Jesus is one of that form.

If God exists in three forms, then calling one of the forms of God the son of God is another mistake. In John 3:16, God loved the world to send his "only son" (as God still has other outcast son he didn't accept like in the Abraham symbolism) but not his other form. What did God send him for? To be killed for other's sin as a ransome for them. Human sacrifice is forbidden. God can save without shedding people's blood.

He comes on earth to take man's form, man kills him not God on the cross because they don't agree with his doctrines

Because he is man he can die in nature, he exchanges his holiness that has never left him for man's sin and then resurrects

Don't forget Jesus is external he can't die so asking why he died makes no sense because he can't actually die but it was more of taking the permanent punishment for man as a temporary pain in death

If you argue about one's righteousness covering for all, can you tell us why Adam unrighteousness covers all men too?

Adam's sin was on him only! No one carries the burden of others. That will be unfair.
Jesus was a man who did all what men does. He ate, cry, was protected as a baby, shit, urinate, was circumcised, drank wine, was beaten, etc.
Nothing suggest that he was God or born by God or one in trinity!

Yeah Abraham was given a ram in place of his son because Abraham already knew God would provide a ram instead of his son even before leaving the house

Nope Abraham wasn't a muslim

Abraham knew nothing of God's plan. The command God gave Abraham was to sacrifice his son!
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham:... Take now thy son thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of". (Gen. 22: 1-2).

And the Qur'an says: Abraham was a Muslim as he did not join gods with God in worship i.e. worship three in one Gods!

And Allaah says of Ibraaheem (interpretation of the meaning):

“And who turns away from the religion of Ibraaheem (Abraham) (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

131. When his Lord said to him, ‘Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!’ He said, ‘I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists).’

132. And this (submission to Allaah, Islam) was enjoined by Ibraaheem (Abraham) upon his sons and by Ya’qoob (Jacob) (saying), ‘O my sons! Allaah has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as Muslims — Islamic Monotheism)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:130-132]

Mikecold:
simple question for you?

Did Abraham tell his son God would provide himself a sacrifice when his son asked him what would be used for sacrifice?

And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Gen 22:8

VS

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Gen 22:2

The son is the Lamb

What was the command God gave Abraham in GEN 22:2 above? Go and kill your son! Same symbolism you are trying to prove that God killed his son! But Abraham did not kill his son.

Further proof from Gen 22:10-13
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

See the Abraham that you said knew the test ahead and that he knew God would provide a lamb.

Why did he need to put knife on his son?
Why did the Angel have to stop him from killing his son?

AntiChristian:


Ishmael was implied from the Qur'an 37:100-113
My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous.
So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.
And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
We called to him, "O Abraham,
You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, this was the clear trial.
And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
And We left for him [favorable mention] among later generations:
"Peace upon Abraham."
Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.
And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
And We blessed him and Isaac. But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself.
……………………………………………………………………………..
Muhammad believed in the Torah revealed to Moses and not the one written by men of the OT!

Where did God reveal this to him? What was the command God gave him?

Where in the Bible did Abraham mentioned that this was a symbolic test that represent Jesus's crucifixion?



God never had an encounter with them and I never said so! In your symbolism, Abraham is God, the son killed is Jesus, who is Sarah, Hagar and Ishmael? Abraham has two seeds. One was not disowned!




If God exists in three forms, then calling one of the forms of God the son of God is another mistake. In John 3:16, God loved the world to send his "only son" (as God still has other outcast son he didn't accept like in the Abraham symbolism) but not his other form. What did God send him for? To be killed for other's sin as a ransome for them. Human sacrifice is forbidden. God can save without shedding people's blood.



Adam's sin was on him only! No one carries the burden of others. That will be unfair.
Jesus was a man who did all what men does. He ate, cry, was protected as a baby, shit, urinate, was circumcised, drank wine, was beaten, etc.
Nothing suggest that he was God or born by God or one in trinity!

Abraham knew nothing of God's plan. The command God gave Abraham was to sacrifice his son!
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham:... Take now thy son thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of". (Gen. 22: 1-2).

And the Qur'an says: Abraham was a Muslim as he did not join gods with God in worship i.e. worship three in one Gods!

And Allaah says of Ibraaheem (interpretation of the meaning):

“And who turns away from the religion of Ibraaheem (Abraham) (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

131. When his Lord said to him, ‘Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!’ He said, ‘I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists).’

132. And this (submission to Allaah, Islam) was enjoined by Ibraaheem (Abraham) upon his sons and by Ya’qoob (Jacob) (saying), ‘O my sons! Allaah has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as Muslims — Islamic Monotheism)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:130-132]

Nigeria was never under the British rule.
Nigeria was created by Uthman Dan Fodio.
All Nigerian presidents since inception are Fulani's

shadeyinka:

Nigeria was never under the British rule.
Nigeria was created by Uthman Dan Fodio.
All Nigerian presidents since inception are Fulani's

How is this related to the topic?

AntiChristian:


Ishmael was implied from the Qur'an 37:100-113
My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous.
So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.
And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
We called to him, "O Abraham,
You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, this was the clear trial.
And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
And We left for him [favorable mention] among later generations:
"Peace upon Abraham."
Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.
And We gave him good tidings of ISAAC, A PROPHET from among the righteous.
And We blessed him and Isaac. But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself.
……………………………………………………………………………..

you see how you just disgraced yourself, you said with your mouth you believe the child of promise and sacrifice was Ishmael, I told you to come up with proof from your own book because we don't deal with what you imply for quran, after taking a long while this is the best you brought.

Yet no mention of Ishmael as promised child, so how come Quran calls Isaac a prophet and doesn't deem ishmael the supposed Arab ancestor the special attention like Isaac

Can't you see why it's difficult to debate with you because you leave the supposed books and start talking fallacy

Again show me where ishamael was the one who was supposed to be sacrificed in your Quran which you said?

Also show me where ishamael is called prophet like isaac in the context of the two children?

Failure to do so you have agreed to whom the Bible clearly said was chosen and not your mere fallacy

Muhammad believed in the Torah revealed to Moses and not the one written by men of the OT!

Your problem is when i talk with proof in the scripture you still say it's my formulation

But you don't even bring in passages to back your statement just like your error in saying Quran told you ishamael was the one to be sacrificed

Can you tell me where mohamed said expressly he doesn't believe in any book other than what Moses wrote?

” Say ye: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, and Jacob, and his children, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to all other prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between any of them; and to Him we submit ourselves.” (Al Quran 2:137)

I hope you can see another of your goof, you didn't write quran and can't tell Mohamed what he believes in because Mohamed believed in what was written not just by Moses but by all the children of Jacob and submitting himself to them (all lies of course)

Where did God reveal this to him? What was the command God gave him?

When Adam and Eve were in the garden it is recorded that God fellowshiped with them every evening at dawn, why didn't you ask the recorders what God was communicating with them every day since every personal encounter has to be reported to you

The fact that Yaweh gave Moses a law where no one should use his name for lies has validated that Abraham didn't use his name in vain when he told Isaac God would provide sacrifice for himself by himself.

Where in the Bible did Abraham mentioned that this was a symbolic test that represent Jesus's crucifixion?

Jesus talked in parables all his time on earth so why would same God not work with parables which becomes symbols only for the wise to decode

When God told Abraham through him all the nation's of the earth would be blessed, did Abraham himself understand what that meant?

God cursed the world with flood, Noah was righteous but why didn't his righteousness cover the sins of the world?

So how come Abraham just one man through him the whole sinful world would be blessed not based on their merit?

This is another symbolism God was giving Abraham, if he couldn't get it then and you can't get it now so how do you expect he would also get the sacrifice symbolism.

This is another symbolic act of God that through his seed israel, Jesus would come that would be a blessing to the world.

God never had an encounter with them and I never said so! In your symbolism, Abraham is God, the son killed is Jesus, who is Sarah, Hagar and Ishmael? Abraham has two seeds. One was not disowned!

So if you agree God never had encounter with the women why bring them into any covenant with him?

Not my symbolism, in God symbolism it's about the father and son who he sent to come meet him at the mountain

Ishmael was disowned from the covenant (the biggest thing that mattered)

If God exists in three forms, then calling one of the forms of God the son of God is another mistake. In John 3:16, God loved the world to send his "only son" (as God still has other outcast son he didn't accept like in the Abraham symbolism) but not his other form. What did God send him for? To be killed for other's sin as a ransome for them. Human sacrifice is forbidden. God can save without shedding people's blood.

What outcast son based on Abraham symbolism?
God has only one son, he planned Abraham to have only one son too.

It was Sarah impatience that brought Ishmael not God plan for him.

God is God (unlimited) you don't tell him what form to exist with, it is not for human to box him to appeal to their taste

Why do you accept God came in the form of a cloud,fire to lead the isralietes but can't choose the form to permanently exist in?

You or God who is to tell what is forbidden?

Because same God ordered Abraham to do this for him with his son

God didn't kill his son, and no God can not save without a holy blood because blood is a symbol of life

Can you tell me why the Quran agrees that the blood on the door of the isralietes saved them when death came visiting on the Egyptians?

Could God not have saved without blood, could God not differentiate between the isralietes and the Egyptian when he asked for blood on their doors

Adam's sin was on him only! No one carries the burden of others. That will be unfair.
Jesus was a man who did all what men does. He ate, cry, was protected as a baby, shit, urinate, was circumcised, drank wine, was beaten, etc.
Nothing suggest that he was God or born by God or one in trinity!

If Adam and Eve sin was on them alone, women would not be going through labor pains to conceive because it was clearly a punishment for Eve

Man would still have been in the garden not struggling to eat because it was only a punishment for Adam.

You forgot to add that God created man in his image so their is nothing demeaning if God takes the shape of a man

There is nothing demeaning if God exists within and inside the earth he created by himself (His presence was inside the cloud when moving with the isralietes.

The prophets who heard from God, God presence existed in the frequency of sound which he created

We as humans claim we are different, yet we are just spirits existing in a vessel called the body

You probably see God as one huge giant so big with massive body structures but forget man is his spitting image.

Meaning God can be like just a normal person but his characters, powers, majesty is what is magnified not primarily his structure

He can exist both in flesh, spirit, on earth without issues

Everything suggests he was God on earth, this is a topic of it's own

Abraham knew nothing of God's plan. The command God gave Abraham was to sacrifice his son!
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham:... Take now thy son thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of". (Gen. 22: 1-2).

Genesis 22: 8

And Abraham said, my son God would provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering, so they both went together

Abraham knew everything of God's plan, and God's plan was he was going to provide a lamb by himself into himself for burnt offering

And the Qur'an says: Abraham was a Muslim as he did not join gods with God in worship i.e. worship three in one Gods!

Fallacy, Abraham didn't even know the name of the God he worshipped, God first revealed himself to Moses and his name

A man who didn't know the God he served how does he know the name of those following the God

How do you call anyone who only worships one god to be Muslim because sango worshippers are Muslims too for worshipping only sango (one god)

Islam simply means submission to Allah that Creed hasn't changed, Allah as a name can not be substituted for Yahweh the personal name of Abraham God.

The name is not subject to translation or replacement

Allah as a name was "revealed" through Mohamed, the God of Abraham introduced his personal name as YAWEH to Moses saying he was God of Abraham

And Allaah says of Ibraaheem (interpretation of the meaning):

“And who turns away from the religion of Ibraaheem (Abraham) (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

131. When his Lord said to him, ‘Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!’ He said, ‘I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists).’

132. And this (submission to Allaah, Islam) was enjoined by Ibraaheem (Abraham) upon his sons and by Ya’qoob (Jacob) (saying), ‘O my sons! Allaah has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as Muslims — Islamic Monotheism)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:130-132]

Saying the term monotheism doesn't justify you serve the right God

Anyone can chose to worship one god of moon, iron etc this doesn't make it the God of Abraham YAWEH

AntiChristian:


And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Gen 22:8

VS

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Gen 22:2

The son is the Lamb

Genesis 22:5

And Abraham said into his young men, abide ye here with the ass, and i and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you

If the son was the lamb he won't tell his men he was coming back with his son who should be slaughtered

What was the command God gave Abraham in GEN 22:2 above? Go and kill your son! Same symbolism you are trying to prove that God killed his son! But Abraham did not kill his son.

Further proof from Gen 22:10-13
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

See the Abraham that you said knew the test ahead and that he knew God would provide a lamb.

Why did he need to put knife on his son?
Why did the Angel have to stop him from killing his son?

Was God supposed to just say Abraham since you have come to the mountain already don't kill your son, i kept a ram for you, use it and go home?

God already knew when to stop him because he sees the future

Abraham was going to follow God directive to the latter as he always did

Need i remind you that Abraham left his father's house too on God's directive to show him a place yet didn't know when to stop moving till God said stop

Mikecold:

Genesis 22:5

And Abraham said into his young men, abide ye here with the ass, and i and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you

Abraham here is not under duress to say this, this is his servants he has command over them, he tells them he is coming again with the lad

He could as well say i am coming, he can remain mute and say wait, but he adds that he is "coming" back with a child that supposedly should not come back...

I see you picked on the word "coming back" and that shows you something beautiful which is what faith is, that is PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AND COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF GOD"

Therefore, you are undermining the Power of the "Exam", simply because the Candidate had Confidence in Approaching the Exam, because the Candidate, like David, Knew the Examiner.

Dtruthspeaker:


I see you picked on the word "coming back" and that shows you something beautiful which is what faith is, that is PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AND COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF GOD"

Therefore, you are undermining the Power of the "Exam", simply because the Candidate had Confidence in Approaching the Exam, because the Candidate, like David, Knew the Examiner.

There can only be faith when the examiner has revealed the outcome to you upon which you trust his ability for fulfilment.

You can't have blind Faith when the outcome wasn't given to you

Because without the outcome given it becomes the actual exam where which it is point-blank stated you must give and no other option

So Abraham wouldn't have said i am returning with the lad in this case.

He is the one giving not hoping to receive, so how do you have faith in giving when you should be asking for mercy if anything

Mikecold:


Genesis 22:5

And Abraham said into his young men, abide ye here with the ass, and i and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you

If the son was the lamb he won't tell his men he was coming back with his son who should be slaughtered

Was God supposed to just say Abraham since you have come to the mountain already don't kill your son, i kept a ram for you, use it and go home?

God already knew when to stop him because he sees the future

Abraham was going to follow God directive to the latter as he always did

Need i remind you that Abraham left his father's house too on God's directive to show him a place yet didn't know when to stop moving till God said stop

Years back I had a trial and in the midst of it, while I and my wife were trying to understand what was going on with us, for it was unusual, in church, on the scroll board, we got our answer, "The Examiner is Always Silent during an Exam"

That's what happened to Abraham and Immediately God Saw that he was going to Obey Him and go through with His Command, God Had to Terminate that Exam forthwith.

Unlike the Israelites, who failed when God Commanded that they should not keep the manna until the morrow, but they disobeyed!

It's as simple!

Dtruthspeaker:


Years back I had a trial and in the midst of it, while I and my wife were trying to understand what was going on with us, for it was unusual, in church, on the scroll board, we got our answer, "The Examiner is Always Silent during an Exam"

That's what happened to Abraham and Immediately God Saw that he was going to Obey Him and go through with His Command, God Had to Terminate that Exam forthwith.

Unlike the Israelites, who failed when God Commanded that they should not keep the manna until the morrow, but they disobeyed!

It's as simple!

If you are a Christian do let me know because the engagement with a Christian might not be the same with a non Christian as i try to limit myself to old testament

That been said Jesus told John the Baptist the baptism was more "to fulfil all righteousness" that's what happened with Abraham wanting bringing out the knife

God never did things without symbolism, the curtain to the ark of covenant tore when Christ was on the cross

Was that necessary?

To people no, but these things bear witness to God all the time

God knew Abraham wouldn't kill isaac, Abraham obviously knew too

But just like Abraham left his father's house on God's order without a direction he kept moving till God said stop.

So also did he keep carrying the order of God on the mount till he heard stop

God has already tested his obedience over time, so it wasn't primarily about some test

He had gone alone journey from home to get to the mount, was that not enough obedience

Humanity would not have understood the intensity of the story if it didn't get to the last minute

Mikecold:
If you are a Christian do let me know because the engagement with a Christian might not be the same with a non Christian as i try to limit myself to old testament

That been said Jesus told John the Baptist the baptism was more "to fulfil all righteousness" that's what happened with Abraham wanting bringing out the knife

God never did things without symbolism, the curtain to the ark of covenant tore when Christ was on the cross

Was that necessary?

To people no, but these things bear witness to God all the time

God knew Abraham wouldn't kill isaac, Abraham obviously knew too

But just like Abraham left his father's house on God's order without a direction he kept moving till God said stop.

So also did he keep carrying the order of God on the mount till he heard stop

God has already tested his obedience over time, so it wasn't primarily about some test

He had gone alone journey from home to get to the mount, was that not enough obedience

Humanity would not have understood the intensity of the story if it didn't get to the last minute

Apparently you will keep on arguing till eternity on falsehood. Even the Christians knew Abraham never knew the outcome of the test.
No Bible verse ever suggests Abraham knew the future.

Abraham that didn't know he'll have Isaac later in life in old age as God's test!
If he knew this he won't have collected his wife's maid to have progeny from her.

And you keep claiming "he knew the test" ahead to proclaim your "son of God sacrifice" agenda!

Abraham did not know any of the tests!

AntiChristian:


Apparently you will keep on arguing till eternity on falsehood. Even the Christians knew Abraham never knew the outcome of the test.
No Bible verse ever suggests Abraham knew the future.

Abraham that didn't know he'll have Isaac later in life in old age as God's test!
If he knew this he won't have collected his wife's maid to have progeny from her.

And you keep claiming "he knew the test" ahead to proclaim your "son of God sacrifice" agenda!

Abraham did not know any of the tests!

The problem with you or rather Islam is you would always be needing validation from others to believe anything for yourself

I started and ended my discuss on the Bible and it's facts nothing outside it

The guys you needed to agree with your theology have actually all run out of ideas to support themselves so i can see why you have stylishly decided to end with "apparently i would keep arguing"

It doesn't matter the contrary opinion that a fellow Christian hold on this, wisdom and mysteries of scripture is not a gift for all

Finally you keep repeating the same goof, you claim Abraham never knew he would have Isaac in old age but how do you explain the below verse by God to him even at old age

GENESIS 17:19

And God said, thy wife Sarah shall bear a son and thou shall call his name Isaac, and I would establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him

Since every scripture is rocket science to you, do I need to also explain that the verse above is from God and made it clear as day that Abraham would get a son whom he should call Isaac and Sarah explicitly would be the mother

So how do you then conclude Abraham never knew he would give birth at old age when he even knows the name of the child already.

Can you see how Abraham actually knew the future and everything in it as it concerns him

He knew he must have a child, he knew the name would be Isaac, he knew the child would be established by God for a covenant forever (forever already means Isaac isn't dieing without having seed which he didn't have at the time of sacrifice)

The verse I quoted also Burt's the fallacy of Islam when the say God has changed the promise he made with Abraham to give Isaac descendants (ie israel) a covenant forever to the Arabs or muslims

That would mean God has changed or a liar which is impossible

The verse also buttress how only Isaac was the child of covenant, God gave him his name by himself unlike Ishmael

On this I drop my debate, you really weren't engaging on this thread you created

Mikecold:
The problem with you or rather Islam is you would always be needing validation from others to believe anything for yourself

Who need validation from you? Abeg we dey show you your hypocrisy in your Book!

I started and ended my discuss on the Bible and it's facts nothing outside it

The guys you needed to agree with your theology have actually all run out of ideas to support themselves so i can see why you have stylishly decided to end with "apparently i would keep arguing"

It doesn't matter the contrary opinion that a fellow Christian hold on this, wisdom and mysteries of scripture is not a gift for all

Finally you keep repeating the same goof, you claim Abraham never knew he would have Isaac in old age but how do you explain the below verse by God to him even at old age

GENESIS 17:19

And God said, thy wife Sarah shall bear a son and thou shall call his name Isaac, and I would establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him

Why did God forgot to tell Abraham about Ishmael before he was born? God could have warned him? And since Abraham knew this verse why did he still sleep with his wife's maid?

Since every scripture is rocket science to you, do I need to also explain that the verse above is from God and made it clear as day that Abraham would get a son whom he should call Isaac and Sarah explicitly would be the mother

So how do you then conclude Abraham never knew he would give birth at old age when he even knows the name of the child already.

Can you see how Abraham actually knew the future and everything in it as it concerns him

I am still waiting for your response on the above reason Abraham slept with Hagar despite being the father of faith and knowing Sarah will give birth to Isaac!

He knew he must have a child, he knew the name would be Isaac, he knew the child would be established by God for a covenant forever (forever already means Isaac isn't dieing without having seed which he didn't have at the time of sacrifice)

The verse I quoted also Burt's the fallacy of Islam when the say God has changed the promise he made with Abraham to give Isaac descendants (ie israel) a covenant forever to the Arabs or muslims

That would mean God has changed or a liar which is impossible

The verse also buttress how only Isaac was the child of covenant, God gave him his name by himself unlike Ishmael

On this I drop my debate, you really weren't engaging on this thread you created

I don't need to be engaging anymore. Even a Christian here could bear witness to your falsehood. I think that is enough.

Which Muslim dey fight you on covenant? No be only Covenant! Old Covenant wey become new covenant!

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
Genesis 17:20

Keep looking for the great nation in Israel!

AntiChristian:
Who need validation from you? Abeg we dey show you your hypocrisy in your Book!

I never asked you to believe my validation, rather it is you who keeps saying do other christians believe what you believe, just like you stated since the guy that commented above isn't yet matured in scriptures then it should generally be at that level greenhorn

I remember i brought this debate in the eid page because of Islamic hypocrisy in the first place

Why did God forgot to tell Abraham about Ishmael before he was born? God could have warned him? And since Abraham knew this verse why did he still sleep with his wife's maid?

Ishmael is irrelevant as long as the God's covenant is concerned, you are the one attaching importance to him because.

Your question is like asking why did God not turn everywoman outside Sarah to dust so that Abraham wouldn't be tempted to birth outside Sarah.

He is a man, he made his free choices but it doesn't stop God's plan

Abraham slept with his wife maid on the nagging of Sarah desire to carry a baby not necessarily because he doubted God

I am still waiting for your response on the above reason Abraham slept with Hagar despite being the father of faith and knowing Sarah will give birth to Isaac!

Genesis 16: 2

And Sarah said into Abram, behold now, the Lord has restrained me from bearing, I pray thee go into my maid,it may be that I may obtain children by her and Abraham hearkened to sarah

As you can see it was Sarah impatience to carry a baby asap that made Abraham go into Hagar not his lack of faith in God

I don't need to be engaging anymore. Even a Christian here could bear witness to your falsehood. I think that is enough.

Falsehood in the scripture or what?

The Christian succumbed to a superior argument and left

Which Muslim dey fight you on covenant? No be only Covenant! Old Covenant wey become new covenant!

Actually i don't think you know what covenant means, covenant with God is the people who God called out as his people that can worship, serve him

Which God called muslims?

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
Genesis 17:20

Keep looking for the great nation in Israel!

You need to go 2 verses above this verse to understand how this happened

Genesis 17: 18

And Abraham said into God, O that ishamael may live before thee

19. And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear there a son indeed, and thou shalt call his name Isaac and I will establish for an everlasting covenant with him and his seed

In these verses you would see that God was telling Abraham how great Isaac would be, Abraham thinks it's Ishmael he is referring to since Isaac is not yet born

God tells Abraham he is referring to Isaac yet unborn but since Abraham has mentioned ishmael he God would also bless him financially and with seed

This however is nothing compared to the actual blessing in the covenant

Mind you God also blessed Isaac both financially and in seed, he got it completely

Mikecold:
I never asked you to believe my validation, rather it is you who keeps saying do other christians believe what you believe, just like you stated since the guy that commented above isn't yet matured in scriptures then it should generally be at that level greenhorn

I remember i brought this debate in the eid page because of Islamic hypocrisy in the first place

He's not yet matured or he is being directed by another version of Holy spirit? You dey mature in scriptures?

Ishmael is irrelevant as long as the God's covenant is concerned, you are the one attaching importance to him because.

Simply put, God never knew he would be born.

Your question is like asking why did God not turn everywoman outside Sarah to dust so that Abraham wouldn't be tempted to birth outside Sarah.

This is not the question! God stopped him from killing his son! Why didn't he stop him from sleeping with Hagar? Why didn't God prevent the fertilization? Why did he protect the fetus till Ishmael was born?

He is a man, he made his free choices but it doesn't stop God's plan

The choice of Abraham that was not part of God's plan.

Abraham slept with his wife maid on the nagging of Sarah desire to carry a baby not necessarily because he doubted God

Genesis 16: 2

And Sarah said into Abram, behold now, the Lord has restrained me from bearing, I pray thee go into my maid,it may be that I may obtain children by her and Abraham hearkened to sarah

As you can see it was Sarah impatience to carry a baby asap that made Abraham go into Hagar not his lack of faith in God

So you will listen to your wife and sleep with a slave when God promised you a child from your wife and not from a slave? You are portraying Abraham as not having faith in God's decree.

You also portraying God as not in control of humans coming to the world and going out of it.

Falsehood in the scripture or what?

Falsehood from the twisting of your scripture!

The Christian succumbed to a superior argument and left

He just avoided you just as others are too!

Actually i don't think you know what covenant means, covenant with God is the people who God called out as his people that can worship, serve him

So Ishmael can not serve God right?

Which God called muslims?

God dey call people? How do you know God is calling you and not devil posed as God?

You need to go 2 verses above this verse to understand how this happened

Genesis 17: 18

And Abraham said into God, O that ishamael may live before thee

19. And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear there a son indeed, and thou shalt call his name Isaac and I will establish for an everlasting covenant with him and his seed

In these verses you would see that God was telling Abraham how great Isaac would be, Abraham thinks it's Ishmael he is referring to since Isaac is not yet born

God tells Abraham he is referring to Isaac yet unborn but since Abraham has mentioned ishmael he God would also bless him financially and with seed

This however is nothing compared to the actual blessing in the covenant

Mind you God also blessed Isaac both financially and in seed, he got it completely

Good! Now God rejected Ishmael because he was not planned for and was born by a slave? Why did God accept 4 of Jacob's children born from slaves?

Sure you know the story of Israel very well with his twelve sons. Four were slave born. Why didn't God reject them in fairness as their mother copied Sarah by giving Jacob their maids when they can't give birth!

AntiChristian:

He's not yet matured or he is being directed by another version of Holy spirit? You dey mature in scriptures?

Never did i mention anything concerning the holy spirit, I am able through the grace and i still crave more.

It all starts by paying attention to mystery unearthed like this and going to the scriptures to fact find them ofcourse with the help of the holy spirit.

Nothing like (Allah knows best so don't don't question) in Christ,

Simply put, God never knew he would be born.

You call him God yet you say he doesn't know something, are you sure you even thought through that statement

Since you still can't grap my explanation can you tell me why God didn't strip Adam and Eve naked when they clothed themselves in hiding?

I mean he made them naked so why didn't he strip them as he made them instead of allowing them cover themselves

This is not the question! God stopped him from killing his son! Why didn't he stop him from sleeping with Hagar? Why didn't God prevent the fertilization? Why did he protect the fetus till Ishmael was born?

Sorry to say, but this is not a question, If God created man with freedom of choice in the garden of Eden why should he interfer in Abraham choices

Did Abraham tell you he prayed to God to make his eyes not see another woman or produce from another woman

The choice of Abraham that was not part of God's plan.

When has man ever followed God's plan since Adam?

Man always mixes things up, God can't stop man from his actions yet he has his masterplan

So you will listen to your wife and sleep with a slave when God promised you a child from your wife and not from a slave? You are portraying Abraham as not having faith in God's decree.

You also portraying God as not in control of humans coming to the world and going out of it.

Abraham had faith in God, yet Abraham is a man that can make mistakes

I don't think you are in better place to judge his faith than God who recorded him as a man of faith

It has nothing to do with God having control of humans going in and out of this world.

If God basically controls every human actions today, everyone has right to go into heaven and not hell

Because if God is the perfect judge he has no right to tell any man to go to hell when he basically was the remote control that controlled everyone's life to his satisfaction

Falsehood from the twisting of your scripture!


He just avoided you just as others are too!

I have been talking since yet not one Muslim, atheist, or anyone can get me bursted or claim it's not scripturally true

From one layer to the next Bible is my standard for truth

So Ishmael can not serve God right?

Yes Ishmael can not serve God unless the one God called i.e Abraham, Isaac and Israelites whom he choosed to keep his ordnances

God dey call people? How do you know God is calling you and not devil posed as God?

Isaiah 43:1
O Israel, the one who formed you says, “Do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you. I have called you by name; you are mine.

As you can see you can't just wake up and start doing eyeservice for "God" he has to call you to begin

Which God called Muslims?

Good! Now God rejected Ishmael because he was not planned for and was born by a slave? Why did God accept 4 of Jacob's children born from slaves?

Point out where i said ishamael was rejected by God for been a slave child, i said he was rejected because the covenant was with Isaac whom Sarah would bare

It wasn't about Ishmael mother

Sure you know the story of Israel very well with his twelve sons. Four were slave born. Why didn't God reject them in fairness as their mother copied Sarah by giving Jacob their maids when they can't give birth!

I am waiting for you to bring up where i mentioned anything about ishmael mother's background as the reason he wasn't chosen.

If your friend who stays abroad tells you he is coming home for holiday and says he would love you to ride him around town in a new car.

You go get a second hand car, your friend arrives, the fact you have a second hand car is not enough to blackmail him to ride in it when he gave you the specs he rides in

Mikecold:
That's not an insult

If someone feels he doesn't have the brain capacity to engage in a debate he should decline

Those childish talk without reference to why it is made should not be joined on my mention

I made no mistake and you can't blackmail me into accepting your bias outside the obvious evidences we are supposed to restrict our selves to

Why don't you put bias and prejudice aside and reason with him

2dominate:

Why don't you put bias and prejudice aside and reason with him

what bias and prejudice

Is this a joke to you

Clearly you didn't take time to painfully digest this thread

You would see none have been able to convince me on the the contrary

Most Muslims do not know that Sarah was not the mother of Ishmael. Ishmael is the ancestor of the Arabs and Muhammad. Ishmael was the son of Hagar the Egyptian slave of Sarah.

Imams and Ustaz always lie to us that Abraham wanted to sacrifice Ishmael but the Quran never made that claim. The Quran was silent on the name of the sacrificial son, but it's glaring that the son is Isaac

The Quran is disjointed, I'll help you by bringing it together so that you can know that Isaac is the one whose glad tidings was brought
رَبِّ هَبْ لِى مِنَ الصّٰلِحِينَ
"My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous."
(QS. As-Saaffaat 37: Verse 100)


فَبَشَّرْنٰهُ بِغُلٰمٍ حَلِيمٍ
"So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy."
(QS. As-Saaffaat 37: Verse 101)



وَامْرَأَتُهُۥ قَآئِمَةٌ فَضَحِكَتْ فَبَشَّرْنٰهَا بِإِسْحٰقَ وَمِنْ وَرَآءِ إِسْحٰقَ يَعْقُوبَ
"And his Wife was standing, and she smiled. Then We gave her good tidings of Isaac and after Isaac, Jacob."
(QS. Hud 11: Verse 71)



وَبَشَّرْنٰهُ بِإِسْحٰقَ نَبِيًّا مِّنَ الصّٰلِحِينَ
"And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous."
(QS. As-Saaffaat 37: Verse 112)



فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ السَّعْىَ قَالَ يٰبُنَىَّ إِنِّىٓ أَرٰى فِى الْمَنَامِ أَنِّىٓ أَذْبَحُكَ فَانْظُرْ مَاذَا تَرٰى  ۚ قَالَ يٰٓأَبَتِ افْعَلْ مَا تُؤْمَرُ  ۖ سَتَجِدُنِىٓ إِنْ شَآءَ اللَّهُ مِنَ الصّٰبِرِينَ
"And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think. He said, O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
(QS. As-Saaffaat 37: Verse 102)


The Quran didn't tell us why Abraham's wife smiled (wife not slave girl) we will pardon the Quran for not telling us because the Quran had said we should believe in the Torah and in the Torah, the reason why Sarah laughed was explained.

Muhammad knew that he plagiarized the Torah, Psalms and Gospels that was why he directed you to those books for proper understanding of what he told you because without those books most stories in the Quran can't be understood, and he was also exonerating himself in a way. So that on day of judgement when you're giving excuses that Muhammad was the one that misled you, Muhammad would simply tell you that he had instructed you to find out the truth by yourself


Now let me teach you.

"My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous."
(QS. As-Saaffaat 37: Verse 100)

This is the Explanation :

Genesis 15
Verse 1 : Some time later, the Lord spoke to Abram in a vision and said to him, “Do not be afraid, Abram, for I will protect you, and your reward will be great.”

2. But Abram replied, “O Sovereign Lord, what good are all your blessings when I don’t even have a son? Since you’ve given me no children, Eliezer of Damascus, a servant in my household, will inherit all my wealth.

4. Then the Lord said to him, “No, your servant will not be your heir, for you will have a son of your own who will be your heir.”


But Sarah decided to help God by giving her maid, Hagar to Abraham because Sarah felt she was too old to have a child.

Genesis 16:1-2
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had not been able to bear children for him. But she had an Egyptian servant named Hagar.
So Sarai said to Abram, “The Lord has prevented me from having children. Go and sleep with my servant. Perhaps I can have children through her.” And Abram agreed with Sarai’s proposal.

But when Hagar got pregnant for Abraham, she began to treat Sarah in contempt and Sarah reported to Abraham who then asked Sarah to deal with Hagar as she liked since Hagar was her maid. Sarah then sent Hagar away and the Angel of the Lord saw Hagar and instructed her to go back and submit to the authority of Sarah her mistress and the Angel of the Lord told Hagar that the child in her womb will be called Ishmael and that


"This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives.”

Perfect description of Muhammad, a wild man, untamed and in open hostility against his relatives the descendants of Isaac(Israel)
-Genesis 16:5-12

Now, God brought the good tidings of Isaac by telling Abraham that Sarah would have a child

Genesis 17:15-22
Then God said to Abraham, “Regarding Sarai, your wife—her name will no longer be Sarai. From now on her name will be Sarah.
And I will bless her and give you a son from her! Yes, I will bless her richly, and she will become the mother of many nations. Kings of nations will be among her descendants.”

Then Abraham bowed down to the ground, but he laughed to himself in disbelief. “How could I become a father at the age of 100?” he thought. “And how can Sarah have a baby when she is ninety years old?”

Then Abraham wanted to help God again by saying God should simply bless Ishmael instead of trying to give Sarah a child at that very old age.

But God replied, “No—Sarah, your wife, will give birth to a son for you. You will name him Isaac, and I will confirm my covenant with him and his descendants as an everlasting covenant.

He said He will bless Ishmael too but his covenant will be with Isaac.

Now on the issue of Sarah's laughter.

Genesis 18:10-14

Then one of them said, “I will return to you about this time next year, and your wife, Sarah, will have a son!” Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent.

Abraham and Sarah were both very old by this time, and Sarah was long past the age of having children.

So she laughed silently to herself and said, “How could a worn-out woman like me enjoy such pleasure, especially when my master—my husband—is also so old?”

Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh? Why did she say, ‘Can an old woman like me have a baby?’

Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”


Genesis 21:1-3
The Lord kept his word and did for Sarah exactly what he had promised.

She became pregnant, and she gave birth to a son for Abraham in his old age. This happened at just the time God had said it would.
And Abraham named their son Isaac.

Later, Ishmael was making fun of Isaac and Sarah saw him and asked Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away and that was how they left Abraham's house leaving Abraham with only Isaac as the only Son in his house, long before Abraham was instructed to sacrifice Isaac.

Now, the Bible was clear on whom Abraham was to sacrifice

Genesis 22:2

“Take your son, your only son—yes, Isaac, whom you love so much—and go to the land of Moriah. Go and sacrifice him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will show you.”