livingchrist:
You have reinstated what I just said, and besides I said prophecy usually ignores time not everytime.
The over two thousand year church age prophecy was kept from the prophets, you reemphasized what I was saying.

I believe I mentioned that I saw your point. The critical difference here is that I don't believe that prophecy ever ignores time. The very nature of prophecy is all about time. What happens with prophetic foreshortening is not that time is ignored but that information about time is deliberately hidden.

livingchrist:
I said prophecy ignores time that is not prophetically relevant. I have given you an example, the time duration between the first and second coming of Christ was ignored because of the reason you stated another one is the resurrection, there was no mention of the events that would take place between the first and second resurrection hence one might think they take place at the same time.

As I said, time was not ignored in that example. It was hidden. The prophets knew that and sought to understand what they were not being told. The Lord told them that the prophecies were for believers of the future, not for them. So, again that example does not at all prove that time is ignored in prophecy since it isn't.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
1 Peter 1:10-12 (NIV)

As for Jesus's words about the resurrection, I have just shown you that He did not ignore time. He spoke of the resurrection as a concept, it is true, but even in practice, what He said was literally applicable since both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected at the same time at the end of time. So, again, this is not at all proof for your position.

livingchrist:
@ bold that is what op said, now christ didnt mention that the resurrection is going to take place in trenches, what does that tell us? That revelation is progressive. The revelations of apostle paul is concerning we the gentiles not the nation of Israel hence paul spoke of the events of the end time that will affects the Gentile churches. The 7 years of tribulation was not mentioned by paul so he spoke as if the rapture only which of cause is also the coming of christ.

What do you mean by "revelation is progressive?"

The Lord did teach that the Resurrection will occur in tranches. You only took one or two instances of that teaching and ignored the rest. These are other things that He said:

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 24:26-31 (NIV)

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31-32 (NIV)

These are the two tranches of Resurrection left. The first describes the resurrection of Church Age believers at the Lord's Return. The second describes the resurrection of Millennium Age believers and all unbelievers. This is not something that Paul saw and Christ didn't mention. It was taught by the Lord Himself.

Regarding your claim about Paul's work and its focus on Gentiles to the exclusion of Israel, this is what Paul said:

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Romans 10:12 (NIV)

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Romans 11:13-29 (NIV)

There is more, but I can tell you for sure that I have never seen anything to suggest a spiritual distinction between Gentile believers and Israel. In this passage in Romans 11, Paul was unequivocal in his claim that Gentile believers, rather than becoming some distinct olive tree preferred by God to Israel, have actually only been made part of Israel in a spiritual sense so that we are tied to Israel's spiritual fate now as long as we are believers. So, when you make these differences between Israel and Gentile believers, I not only see nothing of the sort in the Bible, but I also can't understand what you think you mean. Paul's "revelations" were for the whole Church including all Jewish believers.

Your argument that Paul did not speak of the years of the Tribulation is false. He spoke of that time in 2 Thessalonians 2, a passage that I am aware that you know.

​1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter —asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NIV)

If you expect Paul to have mentioned that what he was writing above was the Tribulation and that it would last for seven years, my answer to you would be, "Why?" Did Paul have to write the whole Bible just to make sure that we know that what he was writing of was the same thing that other writers had spoken of? Do we not have enough information in his words to see that he was referring to something covered far more extensively and in far greater detail elsewhere?

livingchrist:
yes my arguement for pretribulation rapture is very valid, the time gap gives credence to the pretribulation rapture. Look at what I am saying.
1The Lord descend into the cosmos from the heaven [third heaven] ------》2the rapture takes place------》3|7 years of israel's tribulation|-----》4-----the Lord judges the enemies of Israel and comes down to reinstablish the kingdom of Israel.
From here you see that Paul's focus was on the gentile church which is, 1 &2, 3&4 does not concern the gentile church but Israel.

As I have tried again to show, your argument is very poor. Time is never ignored in prophecy since prophecy is all about time anyway. It may be hidden, but even when it is, those who are seriously listening to the Lord know that it is hidden and they may be led to find out why just as the prophets were. So, your argument has no leg to stand on in that regard.

As for the sequence you propose, I see what you are claiming. What I am not seeing is where the Bible says all of that.

livingchrist:
the rapture is only for those believers who died in Christ meaning all those who physically recieve Christ as the Lord and saviour during the earthly life.
You dont understand the 7 year gap because you dont understand that Israel and the gentiles actually have a different prophetic calender.
Presently God suspended the Israel programme and only allow the gentile church time is ticking very soon God will conclude the gentile church programme and resume the one for Israel.
You have to understand that in the old testament Israel was the one through which God uses to reach out to the whole world but in the new testament when Israel fell away the gentile church replaced Israel, but the gentile church will be removed via the rapture to enable the restoration of Israel and fulfilling their election.

The seven year gap is from the book of Daniel, the 70th week will restore Israel once again and will mark the return of their messiah with this God would have fulfilled is promise to the patriachs, and the prophecy of the prophets.

In the bit about rapture being meant for only those who died in Christ, where does the Bible say this? Also, what does it mean to "physically receive Christ as your Lord and Savior"?

I do understand the 7-year gap as the Bible actually teaches it. What I don't see is any biblical proof for your own 7-year gap. Where do you find it in the Bible? Where does the Bible make this claim that Israel and Gentile believers are different organisms?

Where does the Bible say that God suspended the Israel program, as you put it? Where does the Bible say that the Gentile Church (whatever you think that that means) replaced Israel in God's program?

As I said, I know what the 7-year gap is about. The 7-year gap is the seventieth week, just as you said. But much of what you say about it I am yet to see any biblical proof for.

livingchrist:
Anyone not born again cannot be 8n God's kingdom, they will be thrown out into the lake of fire.
Without means those not in God's kingdom.
Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So without you are born again you are outside the kingdom of God.

We know you people really love to worship our God so whenever we see you read our book (Bible) our hearts are touched with feelings of appreciation and love, but the problem here is you people lack ACCURATE knowledge of the word {Romans 10:2-3} and the worst part is this feeling that you have towards us as evildoers simply because we don't share you thoughts! 1Peter 2:12; 4:4

You're just trying to be heady over something that's clear to you.

God's word promised a new heaven and a new earth {2Peter 3:13} the heavens is where Jesus and his co-rulers will be FOREVER:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord! 1Thessalonians 4:17

Paul said they will ever be with Jesus in the place Jesus prepared for them in heaven {John 14:1-4} so they will form the New Heaven that will be ruling over the New Earth!


So just as the born again Christians are the New heavens countless faithful ones will form the New earth and righteousness will reign in both place.

When Jesus came to start the foundation of this Kingdom he wasn't preparing for those that will inherit the earth, he concentrated on the first fruit of God's Kingdom which is those that are going to rule with him in heaven, that's why he kept repeating that he didn't come for you (gentiles) but for Israelites! Matthew 10:6; 15:24

That's why he was telling the Israelites that for them to be part of what God promised Abraham {Genesis 12:3 compare to Act 3:25; Galatians 3:8} they must be born again {John 3:3-5} this is a promise that has nothing to do with you (a gentile) had it been the Israelites accepted Jesus with complete heart {John 1:11-12} it's their rejection of Christ that opens the way for people of other nations to be included in the born again arrangement {Matthew 22:1-14} so it's the born again Christians that will connect others to Jesus {Revelations 7:5-10; 14:1-6} God's word foretold all these even before the coming of Christ! Zechariah 8:23

But if you're not humble enough to learn all this then you will loose out completely, that's why Jesus said you need humility before you can have everlasting life:

Blessed are the meek (humble): for they shall inherit the earth! Matthew 5:5

Compared to:
Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek (humble) of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness (humility): it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger! Zephaniah 2:2-3

The man without the wedding garment at the wedding feast in Jesus' parable is you people {Matthew 22:12} note that he was speechless when asked of his wedding garment. That means such persons will be agitating that they are part of the arrangement but will become speechless when discussing the reality of their claim.
Is that not the same thing you're doing now?

Where will Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and many more who were never born of the spirit till their death be if not earthly part of the Kingdom arrangement?

Don't deceive yourself the born again arrangement began @ Pentecost, before then nobody has ever been born again, that's why Jesus said no man born of woman is greater than John (the baptist) because all those prophets never saw the salvation which is Jesus Christ. But John saw Jesus and was even privileged to be the man who baptized Jesus. Matthew 11:11
Yet John never lived to be part of those that entered into the New Covenant with God @ Pentecost! Act 2:1-4

There's lot and lot of sacred secrets that we will tell you if only you humble yourself!

Ihedinobi3:


I believe I mentioned that I saw your point. The critical difference here is that I don't believe that prophecy ever ignores time. The very nature of prophecy is all about time. What happens with prophetic foreshortening is not that time is ignored but that information about time is deliberately hidden.



As I said, time was not ignored in that example. It was hidden. The prophets knew that and sought to understand what they were not being told. The Lord told them that the prophecies were for believers of the future, not for them. So, again that example does not at all prove that time is ignored in prophecy since it isn't.

It seems you have a problem with words, I used the term ' time ignored' to mean specific times are not mentioned for fulfillment of bible prophecy.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
1 Peter 1:10-12 (NIV)

As for Jesus's words about the resurrection, I have just shown you that He did not ignore time. He spoke of the resurrection as a concept, it is true, but even in practice, what He said was literally applicable since both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected at the same time at the end of time. So, again, this is not at all proof for your position.

Jesus did mention the duration of his millennium reign, the time of Christ second coming are not revealed to any man.
When Jesus mentioned his second coming he ignored the time duration.
The time duration between the first coming and second coming of Christ was never mentioned,

What do you mean by "revelation is progressive?"

there are things not revealed to one generation but revealed as time progresses.

The Lord did teach that the Resurrection will occur in tranches. You only took one or two instances of that teaching and ignored the rest. These are other things that He said:

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 24:26-31 (NIV)

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31-32 (NIV)

These are the two tranches of Resurrection left. The first describes the resurrection of Church Age believers at the Lord's Return. The second describes the resurrection of Millennium Age believers and all unbelievers. This is not something that Paul saw and Christ didn't mention. It was taught by the Lord Himself.

Regarding your claim about Paul's work and its focus on Gentiles to the exclusion of Israel, this is what Paul said:

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Romans 10:12 (NIV)

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Romans 11:13-29 (NIV)

There is more, but I can tell you for sure that I have never seen anything to suggest a spiritual distinction between Gentile believers and Israel. In this passage in Romans 11, Paul was unequivocal in his claim that Gentile believers, rather than becoming some distinct olive tree preferred by God to Israel, have actually only been made part of Israel in a spiritual sense so that we are tied to Israel's spiritual fate now as long as we are believers. So, when you make these differences between Israel and Gentile believers, I not only see nothing of the sort in the Bible, but I also can't understand what you think you mean. Paul's "revelations" were for the whole Church including all Jewish believers.

all these long epistles actually addresses nothing, honestly you show of pride but knows nothing

Jesus never taught a 1000 years duration between a first and second resurrection,

You don't even understand those verses you quoted.
Did you see that Israel will be saved only after the full number of gentiles has being saved. What does that tell you? That the gentiles church must be complete before Israel salvation commences.

Your argument that Paul did not speak of the years of the Tribulation is false. He spoke of that time in 2 Thessalonians 2, a passage that I am aware that you know.

​1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter —asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NIV)

Paul was clearing the air of a false teaching that the day of Christ has come, he simply let the church h know what will happen before the day of Christ comes, ordinarily paul teachings focus on the those things that would have to the gentile church.
Next

If you expect Paul to have mentioned that what he was writing above was the Tribulation and that it would last for seven years, my answer to you would be, "Why?" Did Paul have to write the whole Bible just to make sure that we know that what he was writing of was the same thing that other writers had spoken of? Do we not have enough information in his words to see that he was referring to something covered far more extensively and in far greater detail elsewhere?

If it was important for the gentile church he would have written on it, honestly your rebuttal is shallow.

As I have tried again to show, your argument is very poor. Time is never ignored in prophecy since prophecy is all about time anyway. It may be hidden, but even when it is, those who are seriously listening to the Lord know that it is hidden and they may be led to find out why just as the prophets were. So, your argument has no leg to stand on in that regard.

It is your understanding that is poor
Ask yourself what are we to expect Christ coming or the great tribulation, paul teaches the church to expect Christ coming not the great tribulation.

for the sequence you propose, I see what you are claiming. What I am not seeing is where the Bible says all of that.



[quote]In the bit about rapture being meant for only those who died in Christ, where does the Bible say this? Also, what does it mean to "physically receive Christ as your Lord and Savior"?

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I do understand the 7-year gap as the Bible actually teaches it. What I don't see is any biblical proof for your own 7-year gap. Where do you find it in the Bible? Where does the Bible make this claim that Israel and Gentile believers are different organisms?

at bold where did I say such? You dont understand nothing

Where does the Bible say that God suspended the Israel program, as you put it? Where does the Bible say that the Gentile Church (whatever you think that that means) replaced Israel in God's program?

As I said, I know what the 7-year gap is about. The 7-year gap is the seventieth week, just as you said. But much of what you say about it I am yet to see any biblical proof for.

you see why I said your understanding is poor.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

@ bold this is your answer

Note I won't reply any of your quote any more

MaxInDHouse:


We know you people really love to worship our God so whenever we see you read our book (Bible) our hearts are touched with feelings of appreciation and love, but the problem here is you people lack ACCURATE knowledge of the word {Romans 10:2-3} and the worst part is this feeling that you have towards us as evildoers simply because we don't share you thoughts! 1Peter 2:12; 4:4

You're just trying to be heady over something that's clear to you.

God's word promised a new heaven and a new earth {2Peter 3:13} the heavens is where Jesus and his co-rulers will be FOREVER:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord! 1Thessalonians 4:17

Paul said they will ever be with Jesus in the place Jesus prepared for them in heaven {John 14:1-4} so they will form the New Heaven that will be ruling over the New Earth!


So just as the born again Christians are the New heavens countless faithful ones will form the New earth and righteousness will reign in both place.

When Jesus came to start the foundation of this Kingdom he wasn't preparing for those that will inherit the earth, he concentrated on the first fruit of God's Kingdom which is those that are going to rule with him in heaven, that's why he kept repeating that he didn't come for you (gentiles) but for Israelites! Matthew 10:6; 15:24

That's why he was telling the Israelites that for them to be part of what God promised Abraham {Genesis 12:3 compare to Act 3:25; Galatians 3:8} they must be born again {John 3:3-5} this is a promise that has nothing to do with you (a gentile) had it been the Israelites accepted Jesus with complete heart {John 1:11-12} it's their rejection of Christ that opens the way for people of other nations to be included in the born again arrangement {Matthew 22:1-14} so it's the born again Christians that will connect others to Jesus {Revelations 7:5-10; 14:1-6} God's word foretold all these even before the coming of Christ! Zechariah 8:23

But if you're not humble enough to learn all this then you will loose out completely, that's why Jesus said you need humility before you can have everlasting life:

Blessed are the meek (humble): for they shall inherit the earth! Matthew 5:5

Compared to:
Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek (humble) of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness (humility): it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger! Zephaniah 2:2-3

The man without the wedding garment at the wedding feast in Jesus' parable is you people {Matthew 22:12} note that he was speechless when asked of his wedding garment. That means such persons will be agitating that they are part of the arrangement but will become speechless when discussing the reality of their claim.
Is that not the same thing you're doing now?

Where will Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and many more who were never born of the spirit till their death be if not earthly part of the Kingdom arrangement?

Don't deceive yourself the born again arrangement began @ Pentecost, before then nobody has ever been born again, that's why Jesus said no man born of woman is greater than John (the baptist) because all those prophets never saw the salvation which is Jesus Christ. But John saw Jesus and was even privileged to be the man who baptized Jesus. Matthew 11:11
Yet John never lived to be part of those that entered into the New Covenant with God @ Pentecost! Act 2:1-4

There's lot and lot of sacred secrets that we will tell you if only you humble yourself!

stop all these needless epistles, Jesus said except a man is born again he can not see the kingdom of God.
Whether whether jew or gentile it is irrelevant, except a man is born again he cant see the kingdom of God.

Why not explain what Jesus meant when he said:

"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matthew 15:24

So according to Jesus whom you're quoting, those words

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot, see the kingdom of God" John 3:3



aren't for you but for the Israelites, you will never see anywhere Jesus addresses a none Israelite with such promises {Matthew 15:26-27} according to Jesus you (gentiles) are not the sons of the Kingdom but dogs!

livingchrist:
stop all these needless epistles, Jesus said except a man is born again he can not see the kingdom of God.
Whether whether jew or gentile it is irrelevant, except a man is born again he cant see the kingdom of God.

MaxInDHouse:
Why not explain what Jesus meant when he said:

"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matthew 15:24

So according to Jesus whom you're quoting, those words

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot, see the kingdom of God" John 3:3



aren't for you but for the Israelites, you will never see anywhere Jesus addresses a none Israelite with such promises {Matthew 15:26-27} according to Jesus you (gentiles) are not the sons of the Kingdom but dogs!

Jesus was only sent to preach to the sinners in Israel not to gentiles.
At least Jesus said he was sent to only the lost sheep of the house of Israel but did he tell you that only Israelities needed to be born again?

livingchrist:
Jesus was only sent to preach to the sinners in Israel not to gentiles

You missed it again!
Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) his mission is to organize the Israelites {Matthew 15:24} who will become pioneers of Jesus' teachings to take his message to the most distant part of the earth {Act 1:8} that doesn't mean they're not sinners themselves. But due to been direct descendants of Abraham that's why Jesus said the promises belongs to them! Matthew 23:37-38
It's after they've gotten the privilege that you a gentile can be blessed through them! So they will be blessed through Jesus (the seed sent to them) while you (a gentile) will be blessed through them. That's the arrangement!

At least Jesus said he was sent to only the lost sheep of the house of Israel but did he tell you that only Israelities needed to be born again?

YES! That's why he kept repeating himself that Israel first before any other race. Now think of what that means by meditating on Revelations 7:5-8. Had it been the Israelites accepted Jesus heartedly no gentile will be opportuned to be a born again! John 1:11-12

You will see the efficacy in my explanation but the false reasoning couple with stubbornness is rendering your heart irresponsive to the truth! 2Corinthians 4:4

MaxInDHouse:

You missed it again!
Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) his mission is to organize the Israelites {Matthew 15:24} who will become pioneers of Jesus' teachings to take his message to the most distant part of the earth {Act 1:8} that doesn't mean they're not sinners themselves. But due to been direct descendants of Abraham that's why Jesus said the promises belongs to them! Matthew 23:37-38
It's after they've gotten the privilege that you a gentile can be blessed through them! So they will be blessed through Jesus (the seed sent to them) while you (a gentile) will be blessed through them. That's the arrangement!

what you are saying is nonsense, Jesus came for the Israelities. It was when Israel rejected Jesus that he turned to the gentiles.

YES! That's why he kept repeating himself that Israel first before any other race. Now think of what that means by meditating on Revelations 7:5-8. Had it been the Israelites accepted Jesus heartedly no gentile will be opportuned to be a born again! John 1:11-12

You will see the efficacy in my explanation but the false reasoning couple with stubbornness is rendering your heart irresponsive to the truth! 2Corinthians 4:4

mean while Jesus said except a man is born again he cant see the kingdom of God.
A man whether Jews or gentiles all has to be born again.
You guys love creating false analogy to defend your religious heresies.
You maxed if you are not born again you cant see the kingdom of God.
The bible said both jews and gentiles are no better, meaning if jews need to be born again then gentiles need to be also born again to enter the kingdom of God because non is better than the other.

livingchrist:
It seems you have a problem with words, I used the term ' time ignored' to mean specific times are not mentioned for fulfillment of bible prophecy.

Jesus did mention the duration of his millennium reign, the time of Christ second coming are not revealed to any man.
When Jesus mentioned his second coming he ignored the time duration.
The time duration between the first coming and second coming of Christ was never mentioned,




there are things not revealed to one generation but revealed as time progresses.

all these long epistles actually addresses nothing, honestly you show of pride but knows nothing

Jesus never taught a 1000 years duration between a first and second resurrection,

You don't even understand those verses you quoted.
Did you see that Israel will be saved only after the full number of gentiles has being saved. What does that tell you? That the gentiles church must be complete before Israel salvation commences.


Paul was clearing the air of a false teaching that the day of Christ has come, he simply let the church h know what will happen before the day of Christ comes, ordinarily paul teachings focus on the those things that would have to the gentile church.
Next

If it was important for the gentile church he would have written on it, honestly your rebuttal is shallow.



It is your understanding that is poor
Ask yourself what are we to expect Christ coming or the great tribulation, paul teaches the church to expect Christ coming not the great tribulation.



1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


at bold where did I say such? You dont understand nothing



you see why I said your understanding is poor.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

@ bold this is your answer

Note I won't reply any of your quote any more

I have noted that you don't want a conversation. I will make my response anyway just in case it proves useful to you or anyone else considering the matter.

If that was what you meant, I'm sorry I didn't catch it. The idea that I got from what you were saying was that it is to be expected that prophecies about the resurrection and the Tribulation may ignore time gaps. Since I don't see prophecies ignoring time gaps anywhere in the Bible, I didn't think you could be right. I think that the Bible leads us to expect clear teaching concerning any relevant time duration involved in any matter of importance. For example, although the Church Age is important to us, it really was not necessary knowledge for believers of the Old Testament, so the hiding of that part of prophecy was not damaging at all to them, but since it matters to our spiritual wellbeing whether we will go through the Tribulation or not, it only follows that any time information connected with it would not be ignored in prophecy. And it isn't.

I don't understand what you said about the Millennium and the time gap between the first and second Coming. I'm not sure what bearing it has on the discussion.

Thank you for clarifying your meaning with reference to "progressive revelation." I can see how it applied during the period that the Bible was being written, but it obviously doesn't apply now since the Bible has been completed. I expect that you raise the matter with reference to the subject we are discussing, but I don't really understand the connection right now.

Perhaps my long epistles do address nothing, and perhaps I am a very arrogant person, but that is neither here nor there. I think the question that really needs answering for you is whether your teaching is biblical or not. My long epistles need not mean or address anything, and the Lord is my judge and yours too, but you need to both believe and teach the truth of the Bible for your spiritual safety and for the safety of your hearers. Is that what you are doing?

As for your claim that Jesus did not teach a gap of one thousand years between the first and second resurrection, isn't the following in your Bible?

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV)

Whose teaching is the above? When it speaks of a first resurrection, to what does it refer? What is the second one?

As for your interpretation of the passage in Romans 11, I think that it is obvious that you are wrong. The Bible clearly says that the Gentiles are grafted into the tree of Israel:

24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Romans 11:24 (NIV)

That is to say that rather than truncating anything about Israel, it is simply unbelieving Israelites who have been rejected by God in favor of believing Gentiles who have replaced them in the nation of Israel in a spiritual sense. This is, after all, why Paul makes a point of demonstrating that Israel is not just a matter of physical genetics, but of faith.

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
Romans 9:6-8 (NIV)

Those who believe are Israel, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Those who don't believe are not Israel whether they are Jews or Gentiles. So, there is no distinction between a Gentile Church, as you call it, and the nation of Israel. That is far from anything that the Bible itself says.

As it is, because so many Jews rejected and continue to reject Jesus Christ, the Gentiles have continued to come in to take their place for two thousand years (although there have always been Jewish believers regardless). This will continue until all the Gentiles who wish to believe are complete, then the Coming of the Lord Jesus will turn the tide causing Jews to finally realize how wrong they had been and return to the Lord.

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
​1 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the LORD Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.
4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
Zechariah 12:10 - 13:6 (NIV)

This turning of the tide will then complete the number of "all Israel" including Gentile believers. As I have demonstrated, both Gentile believers and Jewish believers are Israel. So "all Israel" will be saved when all the Gentiles who will be saved have believed the Gospel and all Jews who will be saved have believed the Gospel. This will be fulfilled at the end of the Millennium.

Your response concerning Paul's teaching about the Tribulation is confusing, at least. You just owned that Paul did teach about it to a Gentile church no less, thus owning your error in claiming that he did not speak of the years of the Tribulation, then you turn around to claim that if it was important for the Gentiles to know about the Tribulation, Paul would have written about it?! What were you agreeing that he was clearing the air about then? Was Paul not teaching the Thessalonians specifically what would happen before the return of Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him? Additionally, if it really is not important for Gentiles to know about the years of Tribulation, we shouldn't have the whole Bible including the Daniel that you keep quoting on the matter since it is only relevant to the Jews.

Perhaps it really is my understanding that is poor, but then maybe you could explain yourself better. As for what we are to expect, the Bible seems clear to me that it is the return of the Lord that we are to be yearning for, waiting for, and praying for. But I don't see how that means that we are not expecting the Tribulation to precede that. In fact, from my reading of the Bible, it is our hope in that Return that gives us the strength to face the Tribulation that comes before it.

Regarding your quote of 1 Thessalonians 4:16, isn't this more of what it says?

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NIV)

Why did you exclude the bit about those who are alive and remain?

As for where you said that Israel and Gentile believers are two different entities, maybe I don't understand what you said, but here are your words. Feel free to explain them better:

"Presently God suspended the Israel programme and only allow the gentile church time is ticking very soon God will conclude the gentile church programme and resume the one for Israel.
You have to understand that in the old testament Israel was the one through which God uses to reach out to the whole world but in the new testament when Israel fell away the gentile church replaced Israel, but the gentile church will be removed via the rapture to enable the restoration of Israel and fulfilling their election."

If these are not two different organisms, how is one able to replace the other? Or how is God stopping one for the other? I really don't understand.

My understanding may be poor, but since you are such a great teacher, doesn't that give you a good opportunity for you to teach the truth and instruct the foolish?

As for the quote from Acts, I'm not sure I see how that means at all that a Gentile church (still not sure what you mean by the term) replaced Israel especially given everything that the Bible teaches.

Cheers.

Ihedinobi3:


I have noted that you don't want a conversation. I will make my response anyway just in case it proves useful to you or anyone else considering the matter.

If that was what you meant, I'm sorry I didn't catch it. The idea that I got from what you were saying was that it is to be expected that prophecies about the resurrection and the Tribulation may ignore time gaps. Since I don't see prophecies ignoring time gaps anywhere in the Bible, I didn't think you could be right. I think that the Bible leads us to expect clear teaching concerning any relevant time duration involved in any matter of importance. For example, although the Church Age is important to us, it really was not necessary knowledge for believers of the Old Testament, so the hiding of that part of prophecy was not damaging at all to them, but since it matters to our spiritual wellbeing whether we will go through the Tribulation or not, it only follows that any time information connected with it would not be ignored in prophecy. And it isn't.

I don't understand what you said about the Millennium and the time gap between the first and second Coming. I'm not sure what bearing it has on the discussion.

Thank you for clarifying your meaning with reference to "progressive revelation." I can see how it applied during the period that the Bible was being written, but it obviously doesn't apply now since the Bible has been completed. I expect that you raise the matter with reference to the subject we are discussing, but I don't really understand the connection right now.

Perhaps my long epistles do address nothing, and perhaps I am a very arrogant person, but that is neither here nor there. I think the question that really needs answering for you is whether your teaching is biblical or not. My long epistles need not mean or address anything, and the Lord is my judge and yours too, but you need to both believe and teach the truth of the Bible for your spiritual safety and for the safety of your hearers. Is that what you are doing?

As for your claim that Jesus did not teach a gap of one thousand years between the first and second resurrection, isn't the following in your Bible?

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV)

Whose teaching is the above? When it speaks of a first resurrection, to what does it refer? What is the second one?

As for your interpretation of the passage in Romans 11, I think that it is obvious that you are wrong. The Bible clearly says that the Gentiles are grafted into the tree of Israel:

24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Romans 11:24 (NIV)

That is to say that rather than truncating anything about Israel, it is simply unbelieving Israelites who have been rejected by God in favor of believing Gentiles who have replaced them in the nation of Israel in a spiritual sense. This is, after all, why Paul makes a point of demonstrating that Israel is not just a matter of physical genetics, but of faith.

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
Romans 9:6-8 (NIV)

Those who believe are Israel, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Those who don't believe are not Israel whether they are Jews or Gentiles. So, there is no distinction between a Gentile Church, as you call it, and the nation of Israel. That is far from anything that the Bible itself says.

As it is, because so many Jews rejected and continue to reject Jesus Christ, the Gentiles have continued to come in to take their place for two thousand years (although there have always been Jewish believers regardless). This will continue until all the Gentiles who wish to believe are complete, then the Coming of the Lord Jesus will turn the tide causing Jews to finally realize how wrong they had been and return to the Lord.

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
​1 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the LORD Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.
4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
Zechariah 12:10 - 13:6 (NIV)

This turning of the tide will then complete the number of "all Israel" including Gentile believers. As I have demonstrated, both Gentile believers and Jewish believers are Israel. So "all Israel" will be saved when all the Gentiles who will be saved have believed the Gospel and all Jews who will be saved have believed the Gospel. This will be fulfilled at the end of the Millennium.

Your response concerning Paul's teaching about the Tribulation is confusing, at least. You just owned that Paul did teach about it to a Gentile church no less, thus owning your error in claiming that he did not speak of the years of the Tribulation, then you turn around to claim that if it was important for the Gentiles to know about the Tribulation, Paul would have written about it?! What were you agreeing that he was clearing the air about then? Was Paul not teaching the Thessalonians specifically what would happen before the return of Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him? Additionally, if it really is not important for Gentiles to know about the years of Tribulation, we shouldn't have the whole Bible including the Daniel that you keep quoting on the matter since it is only relevant to the Jews.

Perhaps it really is my understanding that is poor, but then maybe you could explain yourself better. As for what we are to expect, the Bible seems clear to me that it is the return of the Lord that we are to be yearning for, waiting for, and praying for. But I don't see how that means that we are not expecting the Tribulation to precede that. In fact, from my reading of the Bible, it is our hope in that Return that gives us the strength to face the Tribulation that comes before it.

Regarding your quote of 1 Thessalonians 4:16, isn't this more of what it says?

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NIV)

Why did you exclude the bit about those who are alive and remain?

As for where you said that Israel and Gentile believers are two different entities, maybe I don't understand what you said, but here are your words. Feel free to explain them better:

"Presently God suspended the Israel programme and only allow the gentile church time is ticking very soon God will conclude the gentile church programme and resume the one for Israel.
You have to understand that in the old testament Israel was the one through which God uses to reach out to the whole world but in the new testament when Israel fell away the gentile church replaced Israel, but the gentile church will be removed via the rapture to enable the restoration of Israel and fulfilling their election."

If these are not two different organisms, how is one able to replace the other? Or how is God stopping one for the other? I really don't understand.

My understanding may be poor, but since you are such a great teacher, doesn't that give you a good opportunity for you to teach the truth and instruct the foolish?

As for the quote from Acts, I'm not sure I see how that means at all that a Gentile church (still not sure what you mean by the term) replaced Israel especially given everything that the Bible teaches.

Cheers.

I had to reply to clarify somethings, at italicized, thank God you said it your said that [b] gentiles has being replacing israel, but for the rest of the bolded Jesus would not have come before Israel will be restored. Israel will be saved through the tribulation. The seven years was part of the seventy weeks to restore Israel
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 12:6, 17 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.




Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The woman in revelation chapter 12 is Israel, what will happen after the rapture is that God's attention would be focused on Israel once again as it was in the old testament.
The remaninant of her children that would be persecuted are the 144,000 israelities.
Which only speak of one thing that Israel would be restored again, the would come to know the truth that Jesus was their messiah the one whom they killed and would engage in evangelism all over the world, which would lead to alot of gentiles be restored through them, this is what paul said in Roman's that if the fall away of the jews gave opportunity to the gentiles how much more their restoration, that God is able to restore them if they do not continue in unbelief.
Because Israel would come to accept Jesus as their messiah and reject the antichrist, this would anger the antichrist, the dragon and the false prophet, who will muster the armies of the earth particularly the kings of the east to attack Israel, they would pass through the river Euphrates which would have being dried up due to bowl wrath Judgment, they will pass through and encamp in the armageddon, they will actually attack Israel ransacking it, but their terror will meets its end when Christ israel's messiah would suddenly appear with his saints and angels, he will execute Jugdment upon the enemies of his people, and reward his servants, this will usher in the millennium of peace and righteousness on earth.

MaxInDHouse:
We know you people really love to worship our God

Or you're the one doing by fire force attachment

Are you a Christian?

so whenever we see you read our book (Bible)

Wonder shall never end.

If Bible is your book, why do you still need higher authority's permission to access the Greek and Hebrews lexicals

our hearts are touched with feelings of appreciation and love,

But your heart never touched towards those churchgoers in your hall and those JWs who put on fake smile to your hall.

but the problem here is you people lack ACCURATE knowledge of the word {Romans 10:2-3}

The same accurate knowledge Charles Taze Russell and Rutherford had but now considered to be inaccurate and idolaters.

and the worst part is this feeling that you have towards us as evildoers simply because we don't share you thoughts! 1Peter 2:12; 4:4

Did watchtower not have the same feeling of evildoers for the True Christians

How many times has watchtower blackmail the Catholic Church? Hypocrite!

God's word promised a new heaven and a new earth {2Peter 3:13} the heavens is where Jesus and his co-rulers will be FOREVER:

Then WE which ARE ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:17

Paul said they will ever be with Jesus in the place Jesus prepared for them in heaven {John 14:1-4} so they will form the New Heaven that will be ruling over the New Earth!

The other day, you stopped at vs 16 but now you jumped to vs 17 yet you couldn't see the glaring message mr accurate conductor.

I decided to color those parts so that you can see your delusion.

Was Paul alive in 1914 when your Jesus came invisibly?

Who are those Paul said "they will be ALIVE and CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with the dead in Christ to MEET with the Lord in the air?

Maybe this part alone from that verse is Symbolic

Well I don't expect you to know that but everyone can see how you misapplied that verse just for your selfish interest.

So just as the born again Christians are the New heavens countless faithful ones will form the New earth and righteousness will reign in both place.

When Jesus came to start the foundation of this Kingdom he wasn't preparing for those that will inherit the earth, he concentrated on the first fruit of God's Kingdom which is those that are going to rule with him in heaven, that's why he kept repeating that he didn't come for you (gentiles) but for Israelites! Matthew 10:6; 15:24

The fact still remains that if you're not born again you will not SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN....

And the funny thing is that EARTH will still be part of that Kingdom of God.

That's why he was telling the Israelites that for them to be part of what God promised Abraham {Genesis 12:3 compare to Act 3:25; Galatians 3:8} they must be born again {John 3:3-5} this is a promise that has nothing to do with you (a gentile) had it been the Israelites accepted Jesus with complete heart {John 1:11-12} it's their rejection of Christ that opens the way for people of other nations to be included in the born again arrangement {Matthew 22:1-14} so it's the born again Christians that will connect others to Jesus {Revelations 7:5-10; 14:1-6} God's word foretold all these even before the coming of Christ! Zechariah 8:23

If you take your time to read those Bible verses you cited you won't have drown yourself in such contradictory statement.

If Jesus ONLY COMES for the ISREALITE as you claim and at the same time because of their rejection of Jesus, BORN AGAIN has to be EXTENDED TO OTHER NATIONS. Does it make sense?

Apostle Paul in Gal 4:22-31 compares two parties which are believers and unbelievers.

The unbelievers are the children of BONDWOMAN while the believers are the children of the Freewoman.

But what did Paul conclude?

He said, "so then brethren we are not children of the BONDWOMAN, but of the FREE"

But what did he say about the children of the FREEWOMAN? He said, he was BORN AFTER THE SPIRIT.

I know you JWs are children of the BONDWOMAN that's why you people are born AFTER THE FLESH.

But if you're not humble enough to learn all this then you will loose out completely, that's why Jesus said you need humility before you can have everlasting life:

Blessed are the meek (humble): for they shall inherit the earth! Matthew 5:5

Compared to:
Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek (humble) of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness (humility): it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger! Zephaniah 2:2-3

The man without the wedding garment at the wedding feast in Jesus' parable is you people {Matthew 22:12} note that he was speechless when asked of his wedding garment. That means such persons will be agitating that they are part of the arrangement but will become speechless when discussing the reality of their claim.
Is that not the same thing you're doing now?

Are you taking your own advice?

The day you start feeling you know more than people is the day the spirit of pride sets in. Even the most scholarly people who are vast in Greek, Hebrews and Latin of the scripture always give their OPINIONS but as you people pride in self destruction, you see yourself as alpha and omega of the scripture when in reality you'll still Google Greek word "arche" before you know what is going on.

Where will Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and many more who were never born of the spirit till their death be if not earthly part of the Kingdom arrangement?

They are already in Bossom of father Abraham.

Don't deceive yourself the born again arrangement began @ Pentecost, before then nobody has ever been born again, that's why Jesus said no man born of woman is greater than John (the baptist) because all those prophets never saw the salvation which is Jesus Christ. But John saw Jesus and was even privileged to be the man who baptized Jesus. Matthew 11:11
Yet John never lived to be part of those that entered into the New Covenant with God @ Pentecost! Act 2:1-4

There's lot and lot of sacred secrets that we will tell you if only you humble yourself!

Stop deceiving yourself, ALL BELIEVERS ARE BORN AGAIN, I know you and millions of your people aren't born again because you're the children of that BONDWOMAN who are born after flesh.

Just as you're learning more and more from the scripture and about your organization everyday but strong head won't allow you to admit it.

Are you ready to present the evidence of your false allegations?

Emusan:

Or you're the one doing by fire force attachment
Are you a Christian?
Wonder shall never end.
If Bible is your book, why do you still need higher authority's permission to access the Greek and Hebrews lexicalsBut your heart never touched towards those churchgoers in your hall and those JWs who put on fake smile to your hall.The same accurate knowledge Charles Taze Russell and Rutherford had but now considered to be inaccurate and idolaters.Did watchtower not have the same feeling of evildoers for the True Christians
How many times has watchtower blackmail the Catholic Church? Hypocrite! The other day, you stopped at vs 16 but now you jumped to vs 17 yet you couldn't see the glaring message mr accurate conductor. I decided to color those parts so that you can see your delusion.
Was Paul alive in 1914 when your Jesus came invisibly?Who are those Paul said they will be ALIVE and CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the dead in Christ in the air?
Well I don't expect you to know that but everyone can see how you misapplied that verse just for your selfish interest.The fact still remains that if you're not born again you will not SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN....And the funny thing is that EARTH will still be part of that Kingdom of God. If you take your time to read those Bible verses you cited you won't have drown yourself in such contradictory statement. If Jesus ONLY COMES for the ISREALITE as you claim and at the same time because of their rejection of Jesus, BORN AGAIN has to be EXTENDED TO OTHER NATIONS. Does it make sense? Apostle Paul in Gal 4:22-31 compares two parties which are believers and unbelievers.The unbelievers are the children of BONDWOMAN while the believers are the children of the Freewoman.
But what did Paul conclude? He said, "so then brethren we are not children of the BONDWOMAN, but of the FREE" But what did he say about the children of the FREEWOMAN? He said, he was BORN AFTER THE SPIRIT. I know you JWs are children of the BONDWOMAN that's why you people are born AFTER THE FLESH.Are you taking your own advice?The day you start feeling you know more than people is the day the spirit of pride sets in. Even the most scholarly people who are vast in Greek, Hebrews and Latin of the scripture always give their OPINIONS but as you people pride in self destruction, you see yourself as alpha and omega of the scripture when in reality you'll still Google Greek word "arche" before you know what is going on.
They are already in Bossom of father Abraham.Stop deceiving yourself, ALL BELIEVERS ARE BORN AGAIN, I know you and millions of your people aren't born again because you're the children of that BONDWOMAN who are born after flesh.Just as you're learning more and more from the scripture and about your organization everyday but strong head won't allow you to admit it.

MaxInDHouse:
Are you ready to present the evidence of your false allegations?
[size=8pt][/size]

Matt 7:7

Excellent!

Emusan:

Matt 7:7

MaxInDHouse:
Excellent!

livingchrist:
what you are saying is nonsense, Jesus came for the Israelities. It was when Israel rejected Jesus that he turned to the gentiles.

Jesus never spoke with a single gentile after his ascension!
The only people who heard and saw Jesus after his death were Jews, that's EVIDENCE that the Israelites are to connect all other nations to Jesus!

meanwhile Jesus said except a man is born again he cant see the kingdom of God.
A man whether Jews or gentiles all has to be born again.

That statement was directed to the Israelites, as for the rest of the nations they don't have to be born again. Just show me where Jesus said so to a gentile!

You guys love creating false analogy to defend your religious heresies.
You maxed if you are not born again you cant see the kingdom of God.
The bible said both jews and gentiles are no better, meaning if jews need to be born again then gentiles need to be also born again to enter the kingdom of God because non is better than the other.

Can you see that you're unable to produce scriptural references to back up your assertion?
Well that's how truth works. You will just find out that you're trying to argue but you can't find a single scriptural reference to back the highlighted!

There is no pretribulation rapture anywhere... Jesus Christ and the apostles clearly taught post tribulation rapture....

Great

livingchrist:
I had to reply to clarify somethings, at italicized, thank God you said it your said that [b] gentiles has being replacing israel, but for the rest of the bolded Jesus would not have come before Israel will be restored. Israel will be saved through the tribulation. The seven years was part of the seventy weeks to restore Israel
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 12:6, 17 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.




Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The woman in revelation chapter 12 is Israel, what will happen after the rapture is that God's attention would be focused on Israel once again as it was in the old testament.
The remaninant of her children that would be persecuted are the 144,000 israelities.
Which only speak of one thing that Israel would be restored again, the would come to know the truth that Jesus was their messiah the one whom they killed and would engage in evangelism all over the world, which would lead to alot of gentiles be restored through them, this is what paul said in Roman's that if the fall away of the jews gave opportunity to the gentiles how much more their restoration, that God is able to restore them if they do not continue in unbelief.
Because Israel would come to accept Jesus as their messiah and reject the antichrist, this would anger the antichrist, the dragon and the false prophet, who will muster the armies of the earth particularly the kings of the east to attack Israel, they would pass through the river Euphrates which would have being dried up due to bowl wrath Judgment, they will pass through and encamp in the armageddon, they will actually attack Israel ransacking it, but their terror will meets its end when Christ israel's messiah would suddenly appear with his saints and angels, he will execute Jugdment upon the enemies of his people, and reward his servants, this will usher in the millennium of peace and righteousness on earth.

Conversation is all about correcting, clarifying and expanding thoughts and expressions, after all.

I NEVER said that the Gentiles are replacing Israel. Those are your words and your thought, not mine. What I did say is that believing Gentiles are replacing unbelieving Israelites in the true Israel. Where else are the Gentiles coming into to take the place of unbelieving Israelites if not Israel?

I don't see any biblical proof for this: "Israel will be saved through the Tribulation." Daniel 9:24 which you quoted says that 490 years were decreed by God upon Israel and Jerusalem to

1. finish the transgression

2. make an end of sins

3. make reconciliation for iniquity

4. bring in everlasting righteousness

5. seal up the vision and prophecy

6. anoint the most Holy.

Nothing there about saving or restoring Israel.

Within this 490-year chunk of time, the Cross of Jesus finished the transgression, made an end of sins, and made reconciliation for iniquity. The Return of the Lord Jesus at the end of the Tribulation will bring in everlasting righteousness (Satan and all rebel angels will be imprisoned in the abyss, the Antichrist and his prophet will be in the Lake of Fire, and the Holy Spirit will restrain human sin nature far more than ever before), seal up the vision and prophecy (all the prophecies of Scripture will be fulfilled by His Return), and anoint the most Holy (Jerusalem will be the city of the Great King until the end of time).

The Tribulation is clearly prophesied to be a time of terrible testing for Israel at the end of which the Lord will return and regather all the Jews scattered across the world.

It is true that when the Lord Jesus returns, one of the things that will happen is the fulfillment of that promise of recall to the homeland and the establishment of Israel as the premier nation in the world, but I'm afraid I don't see how Israel will be saved through the Tribulation. The Second Coming is the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Antichrist. The Millennium is the time when Jews will be saved disproportionately compared to Gentiles.

You are certainly right that the 144,000 Jewish believers spoken of will be persecuted by the Antichrist. In fact, the passage in Revelation 14 that you quoted was showing us the 144,000 in heaven after they have been killed by the Antichrist. You are also right that these 144,000 will be responsible for global evangelism, but I don't see where the Scriptures say that it is Gentiles that they will be "restoring." Rather, I see that they will be responsible to go only to Jewish communities around the world (cf. Luke 10:1-20; Matthew 10:5-42; Mark 6:7-13). I'm sure that those Gentiles who see their activities and are willing to be saved will be, but their work will be focused on the Jews to prepare them for the return of the Lord (Malachi 3:1; 4:4-6). Obviously, not many Jews will respond appropriately. It will still take until the actual return of the Lord Himself for the Jews to repent in large enough numbers to warrant comment (Zechariah 12:10-14).

What I don't see is any treatment of Israel as an entity separate from Gentile believers. While obviously the majority of ethnic Israelites remain unbelievers to this day, Israel is really all those who believe, not just those who are descendants of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8 ). So, when you say that Israel will repent, you are not making very much biblical sense. If you mean that those unbelieving Israelites will repent, then I can understand you even if I still don't agree with you.

The Antichrist and the world do not need Israelite unbelievers to finally believe in Jesus Christ to hate them. The world hates them even today because they are physically part of the nation that God chose for Himself. That is why it has been trying to destroy them for so long. Hitler certainly didn't hate Jews because they suddenly decided to become Christians. Muslims the world over don't hate the state of Israel because the ethnic Israelites there have become believers. They hate them because they are physical descendants of Abraham the friend of God. This is still why the Antichrist will try to destroy the country with the war of Armageddon. The immediate cause though will be the revolt of Israel against him (Daniel 11:44). Therefore, I don't see how your argument is right. It still does not stand on Scripture.

I also don't see what Revelation 12:6,17 has to do with this. As you said, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, but I am yet to see that God is not focused on Israel even now. I don't see that in the Bible. God scattered the Jews all over the world and will recall them at the Second Coming, but what you have in 12:6,17 above is the preservation of Jewish believers from martyrdom by the Antichrist and the persecution of Gentile believers respectively. This latter is already proof of the error of your thinking in this matter.

Ihedinobi3:


Conversation is all about correcting, clarifying and expanding thoughts and expressions, after all.

I NEVER said that the Gentiles are replacing Israel. Those are your words and your thought, not mine. What I did say is that believing Gentiles are replacing unbelieving Israelites in the true Israel. Where else are the Gentiles coming into to take the place of unbelieving Israelites if not Israel?

I don't see any biblical proof for this: "Israel will be saved through the Tribulation." Daniel 9:24 which you quoted says that 490 years were decreed by God upon Israel and Jerusalem to

1. finish the transgression

2. make an end of sins

3. make reconciliation for iniquity

4. bring in everlasting righteousness

5. seal up the vision and prophecy

6. anoint the most Holy.

Nothing there about saving or restoring Israel.

Within this 490-year chunk of time, the Cross of Jesus finished the transgression, made an end of sins, and made reconciliation for iniquity. The Return of the Lord Jesus at the end of the Tribulation will bring in everlasting righteousness (Satan and all rebel angels will be imprisoned in the abyss, the Antichrist and his prophet will be in the Lake of Fire, and the Holy Spirit will restrain human sin nature far more than ever before), seal up the vision and prophecy (all the prophecies of Scripture will be fulfilled by His Return), and anoint the most Holy (Jerusalem will be the city of the Great King until the end of time).

The Tribulation is clearly prophesied to be a time of terrible testing for Israel at the end of which the Lord will return and regather all the Jews scattered across the world.

It is true that when the Lord Jesus returns, one of the things that will happen is the fulfillment of that promise of recall to the homeland and the establishment of Israel as the premier nation in the world, but I'm afraid I don't see how Israel will be saved through the Tribulation. The Second Coming is the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Antichrist. The Millennium is the time when Jews will be saved disproportionately compared to Gentiles.

You are certainly right that the 144,000 Jewish believers spoken of will be persecuted by the Antichrist. In fact, the passage in Revelation 14 that you quoted was showing us the 144,000 in heaven after they have been killed by the Antichrist. You are also right that these 144,000 will be responsible for global evangelism, but I don't see where the Scriptures say that it is Gentiles that they will be "restoring." Rather, I see that they will be responsible to go only to Jewish communities around the world (cf. Luke 10:1-20; Matthew 10:5-42; Mark 6:7-13). I'm sure that those Gentiles who see their activities and are willing to be saved will be, but their work will be focused on the Jews to prepare them for the return of the Lord (Malachi 3:1; 4:4-6). Obviously, not many Jews will respond appropriately. It will still take until the actual return of the Lord Himself for the Jews to repent in large enough numbers to warrant comment (Zechariah 12:10-14).

What I don't see is any treatment of Israel as an entity separate from Gentile believers. While obviously the majority of ethnic Israelites remain unbelievers to this day, Israel is really all those who believe, not just those who are descendants of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8 ). So, when you say that Israel will repent, you are not making very much biblical sense. If you mean that those unbelieving Israelites will repent, then I can understand you even if I still don't agree with you.

The Antichrist and the world do not need Israelite unbelievers to finally believe in Jesus Christ to hate them. The world hates them even today because they are physically part of the nation that God chose for Himself. That is why it has been trying to destroy them for so long. Hitler certainly didn't hate Jews because they suddenly decided to become Christians. Muslims the world over don't hate the state of Israel because the ethnic Israelites there have become believers. They hate them because they are physical descendants of Abraham the friend of God. This is still why the Antichrist will try to destroy the country with the war of Armageddon. The immediate cause though will be the revolt of Israel against him (Daniel 11:44). Therefore, I don't see how your argument is right. It still does not stand on Scripture.

I also don't see what Revelation 12:6,17 has to do with this. As you said, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, but I am yet to see that God is not focused on Israel even now. I don't see that in the Bible. God scattered the Jews all over the world and will recall them at the Second Coming, but what you have in 12:6,17 above is the preservation of Jewish believers from martyrdom by the Antichrist and the persecution of Gentile believers respectively. This latter is already proof of the error of your thinking in this matter.

I have no intention to take this argument further.

livingchrist:
I have no intention to take this argument further.

By all means, do as you please.