budaatum:


This is funny. I'll explain.

"Acceptance of claims" means, to believe, and anyone who does that has not at all done science, which means, use your senses, which is why a true scientific claim must be testable and repeatable, as Workch claimed. What's funny is that you and he are arguing for the exact same approach to living but would never notice, I bet, which is, believe the right thing.

Science is not about belief. Science is about you using your own senses to test to determine the truth. Its why so much is written about Christ opening people's eyes so that they may see, and once you learn to use your eyes, your heart and soul and mind might work too. Christ, in that sense, was a scientist. And he wasn't scripturally the first. Presented in the story of the Garden of Eden is Adam believing that which was shown to be untrue by use her senses Eve

"Seek and you shall find", someone is once written to have said, and not "let someone else seek for you and you just believe what they tell you to". Only a mentally incapacitated individual, to borrow a phrase, and a slave, would believe what they are told instead of what they perceive with their own 'Jesus' opened eyes. Such people remain enslaved and naked in Eden as opposed to use her senses to free herself and her man from slavery Eve, whom we read did not "surely die" on the day that they ate, but went on to become self employed and populated the earth.

I only wish you had read those 2 quotes and digested each word and line.
You said so much much did nothing to grasp and comment on what I posted there.
That really is the problem.
Please check the claims of each line of the Lewontin quote and respond on the finality of proofs employed in sciences and the materialists a priori stance on the supernatural.

budaatum:


This is funny. I'll explain.

"Acceptance of claims" means, to believe, and anyone who does that has not at all done science, which means, use your senses, which is why a true scientific claim must be testable and repeatable, as Workch claimed. What's funny is that you and he are arguing for the exact same approach to living but would never notice, I bet, which is, believe the right thing.

Science is not about belief. Science is about you using your own senses to test to determine the truth. Its why so much is written about Christ opening people's eyes so that they may see, and once you learn to use your eyes, your heart and soul and mind might work too. Christ, in that sense, was a scientist. And he wasn't scripturally the first. Presented in the story of the Garden of Eden is Adam believing that which was shown to be untrue by use her senses Eve

"Seek and you shall find", someone is once written to have said, and not "let someone else seek for you and you just believe what they tell you to". Only a mentally incapacitated individual, to borrow a phrase, and a slave, would believe what they are told instead of what they perceive with their own 'Jesus' opened eyes. Such people remain enslaved and naked in Eden as opposed to use her senses to free herself and her man from slavery Eve, whom we read did not "surely die" on the day that they ate, but went on to become self employed and populated the earth.

You said Scientifc claims being testable and repeatable. Lol!
Has the Big Bang been observed and repeated?
Who tested, observed and repeated the Big Bang? Why does science BELIEVE by faith that it happened?

Did any scientist test, observe and repeated micro evolution of larger animals and humans?
Did science not BELIEVE by faith that it happened and it’s true?

Did science create the laws of nature? Did science know the origin of the laws of gravity? But it believes by FAITH that it has always been there and will always behave the way it behaves to make mathematical and physical laws and relationships same?

Have you thought of what would happen if tomorrow the sun doesn’t rise or set as it always does for like a month? Would the scientific laws and theories hinged on solar energy remain same? But scientific relationships are built on the ASSUMPTIONS that everyday we wake up, we WOULD always see the sun rise and set and our laws work as we assumed. If the sun doesn’t come up, then the scientific laws would not work as we BELIEVE them to be.
Even when scientists conduct tests and come up with hypotheses, human wills, worldviews, biases and philosophy are applied to choose from alternative results to suit a particular intended result. Those often are not empirical methods.

You are wrong about science. And science having limitations in explaining things that are not materialistic in nature makes it weak and insufficient to discuss religion and the supernatural and God. Maybe you go back to the Lewontin quote and understand their a priori worldview and their avowed reason not to let the supernatural through the door.
Lol!

Workch:
The existence of god has always been a debate because it doesn’t have evidence and we have 4200 of them claiming theirs is real.

All of them are deluded. None has evidence

Or sorry, we have 4201, Flying Spaghetti Monster included

It has always been a debate because people like you have failed repeatedly to prove there is no God. And people like you will always get obsessed with God and spend reasonable amount of their time debating God, studying God , researching God, building points and counter-points about God.

You may have 5,000 God claims, but we know you don’t expend any energy on spaghetti and the rest. Your energy is probably focused on Yahweh God. And you will still come out tomorrow to claim you don’t care about God but the rest of your waking moments are consumed in God thoughts.
Lol

Workch:
There is no evidence for supernatural.

There’s no way to say for sure that it exist. Supernatural only exist in the minds those who believe it. Outside of their minds, it can’t be seen or consequential.

People think of the supernatural when they are mentally bereaved of solutions and understanding to a phenomenon. It’s a mentally lazy option to answer questions and solve problems and most times it doesn’t really solve problems. People Just like that mentally strain-less options

Because the human mental strength is weak by default and it takes rigorous steps to empower it, an average human will readily think of supernatural means when he can’t figure solutions. But when you build your brain to reason and think, you can’t jump Or paranormality when you don’t have answers for problems, that’s w mentally weak option that cannot be proven.

This is why supernaturality cannot hold water in courts and sole climes where reason is required. People always have a way of frabricating bogus claims in the name of the supernatural, it’s way institution built on reason and logic can’t take them seriously.ites the and reason pastors scam members, because he knows that his multitude are people who are mentally bereaved of logic and reason to an extinct, they won’t ask him to provide evidence for anything. They will just believe him.

There’s no single problem we can’t point to and verify that has been solved by supernatural means, it’s because such doesn’t exist. It’s hoax and nonsense

It doesn’t matter if you quote Albert Einstein, if what you quote doesn’t have evidence then it’s just his opinion. Hope you get it?

This is why supernaturality cannot hold water in courts and sole climes where reason is required. People always have a way of frabricating bogus claims in the name of the supernatural, it’s way institution built on reason and logic can’t take them seriously.ites the and reason pastors scam members, because he knows that his multitude

First of all, you didn’t understand the Lewontin quote I put there. That exactly is the same mistake you make: a priori beliefs and assumptions and worldview caked in your mind that washes off any counter opinion.
Go back and read it and understand your position.

Secondly you talk about logic and reason. I just laughed. You have made so much claims about logic and reason. Do you have any empirical evidence that logic and reason exist?

Yet you employ logic and reason and claim to have used it to dismiss God and the supernatural. Pls show me an empirical proof of logic and reason or maths and numbers or even your consciousness?

Ammishaddai:
Can you prove that God does not exist ?

No one can. No atheist or skeptic or agnostic or anyone can ever prove that God doesn’t exist.
They only say “ your evidences for God provided aren’t sufficient to make me believe”.
That is the highest anyone can say.

“This leads me to a profound realization that there PROBABLY is no heaven and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe and for that, I am extremely grateful.”


“One CAN’T prove that God doesn’t exist. But science makes God unnecessary. … The laws of physics can explain the universe without the need for a creator.”

Those quotes are from the renowned atheist and Physicist Stephen Hawkings.

“ I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.”- Richard Dawkins( a renowned biologist and atheist)


That is the best any atheist can say- probably etc.

Nothingserious:


No one can. No atheist or skeptic or agnostic or anyone can ever prove that God doesn’t exist.
They only say “ your evidences for God provided aren’t sufficient to make me believe”.
That is the highest anyone can say.

“This leads me to a profound realization that there PROBABLY is no heaven and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe and for that, I am extremely grateful.”


“One CAN’T prove that God doesn’t exist. But science makes God unnecessary. … The laws of physics can explain the universe without the need for a creator.”

Those quotes are from the renowned atheist and Physicist Stephen Hawkings.

“ I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.”- Richard Dawkins( a renowned biologist and atheist)


That is the best any atheist can say- probably etc.

Your strength lies in needless questions

Workch:
And he’s quoting the fairytale

4,200 religious books and the Bible is the correct one. Delusion

Psalm 119:103-106
'103How sweet are Your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104From Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way. Nun.
105Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.
106I have sworn [an oath] and have confirmed it,
That I will keep Your righteous ordinances.'

Yes and that is because the taste of the pudding is in the eating.

Workch:
Flying Spaghetti Monster exist with faith

You mentioned FSM, didnt you?
Anyway, your murderous hatred of God betrays your atheistic parochialism and thats what in your acute consciousness killed God

Nothingserious:




This is why supernaturality cannot hold water in courts and sole climes where reason is required. People always have a way of frabricating bogus claims in the name of the supernatural, it’s way institution built on reason and logic can’t take them seriously.ites the and reason pastors scam members, because he knows that his multitude

First of all, you didn’t understand the Lewontin quote I put there. That exactly is the same mistake you make: a priori beliefs and assumptions and worldview caked in your mind that washes off any counter opinion.
Go back and read it and understand your position.

Secondly you talk about logic and reason. I just laughed. You have made so much claims about logic and reason. Do you have any empirical evidence that logic and reason exist?

Yet you employ logic and reason and claim to have used it to dismiss God and the supernatural. Pls show me an empirical proof of logic and reason or maths and numbers or even your consciousness?

I am not here to answer quotes, I don’t owe you answers when you have it provided evidence for your claims.

Asking me questions is a subtle way of shying away from providing evidence and I won’t play into that gallery. Stop asking needless questions and hiding under them because you can’t provide evidence for your blind faith in a god

Nothingserious:


It has always been a debate because people like you have failed repeatedly to prove there is no God. And people like you will always get obsessed with God and spend reasonable amount of their time debating God, studying God , researching God, building points and counter-points about God.

You may have 5,000 God claims, but we know you don’t expend any energy on spaghetti and the rest. Your energy is probably focused on Yahweh God. And you will still come out tomorrow to claim you don’t care about God but the rest of your waking moments are consumed in God thoughts.
Lol

You made he claim, you will prove it.

I can’t prove there’s no Spider-Man. I don’t have to because it doesn’t exist. Same as god

BassReeves:
Psalm 119:103-106
'103How sweet are Your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104From Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way. Nun.
105Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.
106I have sworn [an oath] and have confirmed it,
That I will keep Your righteous ordinances.'

Yes and that is because the taste of the pudding is in the eating.

You mentioned FSM, didnt you?
Anyway, your murderous hatred of God betrays your atheistic parochialism and thats what in your acute consciousness killed God

I don’t have hate god, you can’t hate things that don’t exist. Why would I hate Spider-Man and Superman or Aquaman?

Nothingserious:


I only wish you had read those 2 quotes and digested each word and line.
You said so much much did nothing to grasp and comment on what I posted there.
That really is the problem.
Please check the claims of each line of the Lewontin quote and respond on the finality of proofs employed in sciences and the materialists a priori stance on the supernatural.

Stop asking people questions here. You claim a god, provide evidence.

No quote is evidence. Give us evidence, let’s test it. It’s that simple

Workch:
I don’t have hate god, you can’t hate things that don’t exist. Why would I hate Spider-Man and Superman or Aquaman?

'I don’t have hate god, you can’t hate things that don’t exist' indeed. Knock me down with a feather
If you love God, you'll know He exists.

BassReeves:
'I don’t have hate god, you can’t hate things that don’t exist' indeed. Knock me down with a feather
If you love God, you'll know He exists.

I love Spider-Man, it doesn’t mean he exist

Nothingserious:


No one can. No atheist or skeptic or agnostic or anyone can ever prove that God doesn’t exist.
They only say “ your evidences for God provided aren’t sufficient to make me believe”.
That is the highest anyone can say.

“This leads me to a profound realization that there PROBABLY is no heaven and no afterlife either. We have this one life to appreciate the grand design of the universe and for that, I am extremely grateful.”


“One CAN’T prove that God doesn’t exist. But science makes God unnecessary. … The laws of physics can explain the universe without the need for a creator.”

Those quotes are from the renowned atheist and Physicist Stephen Hawkings.

“ I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.”- Richard Dawkins( a renowned biologist and atheist)


That is the best any atheist can say- probably etc.

True talk.

Workch:
Stop asking people questions here. You claim a god, provide evidence.

No quote is evidence. Give us evidence, let’s test it. It’s that simple

The problem with people like you.
If you can’t read that simple text, then you have no right to ask anyone for evidences or God.

Materialism/naturalism/scientism/verificationism do not have answers to all reality.

If you can provide empirical evidences for logic and reason, maths and numbers, consciousness, beauty, then we can start the discussion.

If you can’t, then just keep learning

Workch:
You made he claim, you will prove it.

I can’t prove there’s no Spider-Man. I don’t have to because it doesn’t exist. Same as god

Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawkins, Sam Harris, Anthony Flew ( who later jettisoned atheistic ideas and embraced theism) could not categorically say there is no God.

Who are you to say so?

You can’t disprove it. Just rest.

Workch:
I am not here to answer quotes, I don’t owe you answers when you have it provided evidence for your claims.

Asking me questions is a subtle way of shying away from providing evidence and I won’t play into that gallery. Stop asking needless questions and hiding under them because you can’t provide evidence for your blind faith in a god

This is your subtle way of saying “ I don’t know”.
Go back and read the Lewontin quote line by line and word for word and respond.

Were you the one who talked about logic and reason? I laughed and asked you to give me empirical proofs for existence of logic and numbers and consciousness. At least you claim all reality can be reduced to empirical data.

If you can’t provide them, then we can move ahead and discuss the timeless, spaceless and immaterial God.

I just need you to have a foundation on our discussion

HellVictorinho:



Your strength lies in needless questions

Simple questions too hard for you to answer.
I am yet to see a single meaningful comment you have ever made on nairaland.
Gibberish all the time!

If you think you are smart as you claim, attempt the questions so we pick up our discussion from there.

Nothingserious:


Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawkins, Sam Harris, Anthony Flew ( who later jettisoned atheistic ideas and embraced theism) could not categorically say there is no God.

Who are you to say so?

You can’t disprove it. Just rest.

Who were they to change anyone's mind concerning God?


Disproving the existence of God is not a meaningful exercise


It's like asking me to disprove fomarsin


When a word or a term doesn't have to be taken seriously
It's of no use to disprove anything because there's nothing to disprove



You will call this a claim when you don't know what else to say



If I call what you say nothing but claims

Will you agree?


Well

Based on your style

Anything anyone says is nothing but a claim

But that's just another claim!



There's more to what I mean


Spits on the grave......

Nothingserious:


Simple questions too hard for you to answer.
I am yet to see a single meaningful comment you have ever made on nairaland.
Gibberish all the time!

If you think you are smart as you claim, attempt the questions so we pick up our discussion from there.

It will be very stupid of me to seriously attempt to answer the questions




I hope you understand that!

Nothingserious:


This is your subtle way of saying “ I don’t know”.
Go back and read the Lewontin quote line by line and word for word and respond.

Were you the one who talked about logic and reason? I laughed and asked you to give me empirical proofs for existence of logic and numbers and consciousness. At least you claim all reality can be reduced to empirical data.

If you can’t provide them, then we can move ahead and discuss the timeless, spaceless and immaterial God.

I just need you to have a foundation on our discussion

Then god remains in hiding and won’t exist.

Your problem and not mine.

Nothingserious:


Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawkins, Sam Harris, Anthony Flew ( who later jettisoned atheistic ideas and embraced theism) could not categorically say there is no God.

Who are you to say so?

You can’t disprove it. Just rest.

Appealing to Authority is not evidence

God doesn’t exist until we see evidence sir

Nothingserious:


The problem with people like you.
If you can’t read that simple text, then you have no right to ask anyone for evidences or God.

Materialism/naturalism/scientism/verificationism do not have answers to all reality.

If you can provide empirical evidences for logic and reason, maths and numbers, consciousness, beauty, then we can start the discussion.

If you can’t, then just keep learning

If it doesn’t have evidence then it can’t be trusted.

You made the claim and you must provide the evidence that your imaginary sky friend exist else he exist only in your head and that of others who share your notion.

Don’t come here committing fallacy of complex questions, I am not going to follow you through that fallacious route. Why is it hard to give testable evidence for your god? Why?

It’s simple, you claim god exist, prove it. Else he’s another version of Flying Spaghetti Monster

See what you describe as Science, lol, big bang, micro evolutuon, etc. Were they replicated in a lab too?

Science, the use of your senses, is a tool to seek understanding. A theory is first presented then further information is sought. An example is the world was flat until subsequent observation found it was not flat. Unfortunately, human senses are rarely and slowly used, so knowledge acquisition is gradual.

There was a time when 'Scientists' came up with a theory that states that, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light."

Subsequent observation and theories have come up with alternative ideas like when God supposedly said "Let there be Light", there was a big bang then there was light. But you need to learn to separate hypothesis and theories from the observed facts. A scientist would tell you big bang is a theory, one of many.

You might want to start by observing how many science produced products you use today to plot how right human use of science profits you. Without it, humans can not possibly fulfil the command to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth", and therefore be blessed, and go to Mars and Jupiter and Uranus too,

Just observe a country like Nigeria to see how a negative attitude towards science holds us back because we would rather believe than scientifically 'use our God given senses'. But as this thread shows, eyes are opening, thank the Gods.

Nothingserious:


You said Scientifc claims being testable and repeatable. Lol!
Has the Big Bang been observed and repeated?
Who tested, observed and repeated the Big Bang? Why does science BELIEVE by faith that it happened?

Did any scientist test, observe and repeated micro evolution of larger animals and humans?
Did science not BELIEVE by faith that it happened and it’s true?

Did science create the laws of nature? Did science know the origin of the laws of gravity? But it believes by FAITH that it has always been there and will always behave the way it behaves to make mathematical and physical laws and relationships same?

Have you thought of what would happen if tomorrow the sun doesn’t rise or set as it always does for like a month? Would the scientific laws and theories hinged on solar energy remain same? But scientific relationships are built on the ASSUMPTIONS that everyday we wake up, we WOULD always see the sun rise and set and our laws work as we assumed. If the sun doesn’t come up, then the scientific laws would not work as we BELIEVE them to be.
Even when scientists conduct tests and come up with hypotheses, human wills, worldviews, biases and philosophy are applied to choose from alternative results to suit a particular intended result. Those often are not empirical methods.

You are wrong about science. And science having limitations in explaining things that are not materialistic in nature makes it weak and insufficient to discuss religion and the supernatural and God. Maybe you go back to the Lewontin quote and understand their a priori worldview and their avowed reason not to let the supernatural through the door.
Lol!

Workch:
You still have not provided evidence for your god.

No amount of distraction can stop me from demanding for evidence sir

You are demanding evidence for my own God, Workch? Now, why would I want to provide evidence of my God for you? Do you think I intend to share my God with you and limit the time my God has for me because my God is spending time with you?

Please know that the God of buda is a very selfish God and only buda does it serve, and I do not wish you to know the God of buda when you can't even be bothered to know buda the owner of my God!

That said. If you really wish to know the God of buda, start by asking first, What is God, instead of assuming and believing what you already think you know.

Workch:
You made claim of a god,

No I did not make a claim of a god, workch.

Open your eyes so you may understand and not misspeak please, though I can forgive how you could have mistaken me for those making claims for gods.

Nothingserious:


Materialism at its best!

“Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an[b] understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.[/b] It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.”
[Billions and Billions of Demons - JANUARY 9, 1997 ISSUE]
Richard C. Lewontin

“There is an old saying, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you will start treating all your problems like a nail.” This quote dates back to 1964 and Abraham Kaplan, whose first wording was actually, "Give a small boy a hammer and he will find that everything he encounters needs a pounding."

Once you view all existence through the prism of materialism, everything is reduced to what can be investigated by matter only.
We know that not all we know and believe in can be reduced to empirical analysis and yet we have come to belief in them by experience.

I ignored the specifics of your quote because of it's absurdity. The person who made it likely made use of numerous tools developed from scientific discoveries like rode in a car, sat in a chair, used a microphone, shaved with electricity, then says how science is struggling against the supernatural, when the truth is supernaturalists and scientists are perhaps struggling against each other. And indeed they are. In Nigeria, supernaturalists are winning, which is why we have lots of temples in which to worship the supernatural, and a lack of science temples (hostels , factories etc) in which to worship science, and we can all see the result. 56% of Nigerian youths get to worship the supernatural while begging for their daily bread! I guess many don't understand that when God is written to have said "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground", you are being told to use your senses (science) to make the ground more profitable for you.

budaatum:


No I did not make a claim of a god, workch.

Open your eyes so you may understand and not misspeak please, though I can forgive how you could have mistaken me for those making claims for gods.

so what’s your argument all about?

budaatum:


You are demanding evidence for my own God, Workch? Now, why would I want to provide evidence of my God for you? Do you think I intend to share my God with you and limit the time my God has for me because my God is spending time with you?

Please know that the God of buda is a very selfish God and only buda does it serve, and I do not wish you to know the God of buda when you can't even be bothered to know buda the owner of my God!

That said. If you really wish to know the God of buda, start by asking first, What is God, instead of assuming and believing what you already think you know.

Ok good then.

So who’s the god of buda?

HellVictorinho:



Who were they to change anyone's mind concerning God?


Disproving the existence of God is not a meaningful exercise


It's like asking me to disprove fomarsin


When a word or a term doesn't have to be taken seriously
It's of no use to disprove anything because there's nothing to disprove



You will call this a claim when you don't know what else to say



If I call what you say nothing but claims

Will you agree?


Well

Based on your style

Anything anyone says is nothing but a claim

But that's just another claim!



There's more to what I mean


Spits on the grave......

Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawkins, Sam Harris, Anthony Flew ( who later jettisoned atheistic ideas and embraced theism) could not categorically say there is no God.

Who are you to say so?

You can’t disprove it. Just rest.

We don’t know you

Workch:
Ok good then.

So who’s the god of buda?

Work! You jumped! First, you need to begin with What is God?

Searching for an answer to that question is a journey every serious atheist must go through instead of theistically accepting what they are religiously conditioned to believe. One can tell those who haven't gone on the journey because they'll say they "don't believe in the existence of God" without quite understanding their belief is as inconsequential as those who believe in the existence of God, as both think what they believe in their head is real.

After you have an answer to What is God, you and I can then discuss the God of buda. Meanwhile however, by buda's fruits would you know buda's God. Fruits, in case you are not aware, means, evidence.

P.s. I am assuming your name is a true indication of who and what you are. A worker, as opposed to a lazy believing fuq.

Workch:
The Bible is not evidence, it’s a claim.

Miracles are not evidence, they are claims or products of ignorance.

Creatures are not evidence, we know how a lot of them got here.

Bible and Quran passages are full of lies and unsubstantiated claims. Their stories directly oppose reality and sometimes very laughable and can never be proven to be true, all lies and no single evidence.

There are no gods. All gods are fantasy creatures invented by humans. Gods can’t be detected with our human senses because gods don’t exist.

“Perceived mind telepathy”? Well, right, there’s no such thing as telepathy but sometimes people think they are receiving messages from some outside source. They are actually getting some sort of feedback from their own subconscious mind.

Smh. This is the kind of arguments Apostle Paul warned us against