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Did The Mind Evolve From Chemistry, Matter And Energy? / Is Matter And Energy Eternal? / Who Frees You When Your Heart And Mind Is Full Of This??? (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 8:08pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
budaatum: In a manner of speaking, the difference being in bending the light continues through the medium while with scattering the light is changing direction without penetrating the medium. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 8:11pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
budaatum: Yes but can you explain how a shadow is made of light and is not made of light at the same time. As far as I know that is impossible. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Matter And Mind by triplechoice(m): 8:20pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
LordReed: Then be definite about your usage of the word,effect, because you create a critical misunderstanding by using it in isolation. A subjective reaction to something is also effect. But would you accept it is real effect caused by something? You have been using that word for or so long on this thread that I think it is about time you mentioned exactly what you mean by effects and stick to it so as to remove all suspicion. Sorry if I have accused you wrongly but I have explained why . 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Matter And Mind by budaatum: 8:49pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
LordReed: "Made of", I suppose, would be layperson speak for, the light creates the shadow. Shadows are made by the manipulation of light, my Lord. Without a light source, you can't have shadows (nor light, obviously), so the light source makes (or, creates) [the] shadow. No light, no shadow. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 9:15pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
triplechoice: I would define effect as the result of a prior cause or event so yes a subjective reaction is also an effect. No offence taken, I just thought I goofed somewhere. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 9:17pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
budaatum: Yeah but you are defining the way it was formed not what it is constituted of. |
Re: Matter And Mind by budaatum: 10:29pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
Damn! See wuruwuru! budaatum: I feel implied that an emotion has material, lol, by distorting with the adjective, 'physical'. Do emotions have material? budaatum:This is much better, though that adjective! Does 'non-physical matter' exist? Examples please. |
Re: Matter And Mind by budaatum: 10:32pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
LordReed: It is constituted of light. Though, saying that one could argue the light just allows one to see the shadow. My light school was like 40 years ago, my Lord. Let me go do some learning and come back on this one. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 11:45pm On Jan 19, 2022 |
budaatum: I can't wrap my head around how it is constituted of light and at the same time the absence of light. Share what you learn dear buda, don't be a hog. LoL! 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Matter And Mind by Myer(m): 7:34am On Jan 20, 2022 |
triplechoice: Sure. Even the bible corroborated this. Know ye not that ye are gods? Though the creator is greater than the creation. |
Re: Matter And Mind by Myer(m): 7:36am On Jan 20, 2022 |
LordReed: This my friend is the question. Cos when it's the mind, it normally should be from what is stored up from your experience. But when it's spirit, then you yourself know the source of your knowledge transcends your experiences. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 8:06am On Jan 20, 2022 |
Myer: Yet none of those who claim to be in touch via spirit can demonstrate any capacity beyond what would be naturally available to them. I have tested this several times and no one has fulfilled it. My tentative conclusion is no spirit connection has been demonstrated. |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 5:53pm On Jan 20, 2022 |
@ LordReed, triplechoice - Definition & Description of Spirit - (for the purposes of this discussion): The vital principle, essential animating force and root-consciousness (of living, sentient and sapient beings). It manifests itself in the world of matter principally through the physical body, and engages in activity therein and has experiences thereby, but its consistency is of a lighter nature than matter, which is heavy by comparison. It has its domicile in the spiritual dimension with which it shares the same consistency and nature, and which dimension is different from, and lighter than the world of matter, even if attached to the world of matter. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 4:53pm On Jan 22, 2022 |
Given your definition of spirit I can now more clearly see why you have issue with my position but still you are not simply finding the logical inconsistences with my position. You are judging my position based on what you think is the dual nature of the human. Let's see if I can make clear that the logic in my position is sound. DeepSight: This analogy is plain wrong. When I used the analogy of a car I did say you have control of the car because you have control of the steering wheel. What I said you didn't have control over was the constituent atoms of the car and I went to say that to claim you must have control over the atoms or else you don't have control over the car is plain wrong. This is similar to the control you have over your body. You do not control individual cells but you control the entirety. - - -> You assert that minds arise from matter Wrong again. I never said the will was independent. - - - > This is just circular. It is logically impossible. You cannot derive mind from matter and at the same time seek to infuse mind with some inchoate separate will of its own by which it can control matter. This would be absurd because what you are in fact trying to do here is eat your cake and have it - you are trying to assert that all the thoughts and actions of mind arise from the interactions of matter and at the same time insist that mind controls the matter. This patently self contradictory. This I think is the crux of your misunderstanding, you think I believe in freewill, I don't. I think I have mentioned it at least twice in conversation with you that I am compatibilist. It seems you skip over some of these clarifications. The mind and the body are a single unit, there is no independent will, the will works with and from the body and vice versa. And like I previously clarified your will has control over a limited set of functions of your body. Your will doesn't automatically assign intentionality to your cells because it exists.
You miss the point of the analogy. The point was to show that control does not extend to constituent molecules. When you press the remote's button you are only activating a limited portion of it's entire make up. You are not activating the entire of the remote only a specific subsection required to do the task. This is analogous to the mind and body, your will only controls certain functions of your body. In the case of the human being under the worldview you have described as your position, the constituent parts - the cells and neurons must perforce act prior to your being able to exercise any function of mind. Their action must precede your every thought, word and deed. For this reason it would be circular to say that you control anything outside of this. Indeed the minute you make such a claim you actually cede the debate entirely because you are thereby conceding that mind must precede and control matter. There is no hierarchy going here, instead it is a reciprocal set of interactions. The body influences the mind and the mind influences the body. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 9:38am On Jan 26, 2022 |
DeepSight I think a more important conundrum for us to contemplate is how do we determine if indeed the human is a mind matter duality and what benefits can be derived from establishing such as fact. |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 7:05am On Jan 27, 2022 |
LordReed: Now this is indeed the koko of the matter. I will address this later this morning. Let me be diligent and finish with some work presently before me. Cheers. |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 9:16pm On Jan 28, 2022 |
LordReed. I have found a friend for you. Tammiejo. From here - https://www.nairaland.com/6952017/freethinkers-how-manage-living-country/3#109771372 |
Re: Matter And Mind by TammieJo(f): 10:58pm On Jan 28, 2022 |
LOL. Where do I even begin, Mr DeepSight? |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 12:24pm On Jan 29, 2022 |
TammieJo: Anywhere. You will have a strong wingman in LordReed. |
Re: Matter And Mind by Tamaratonye1(f): 5:00pm On Jan 29, 2022 |
Hi DeepSight, this is TammieJo. I've reverted to my main moniker since it is back from its' ban. DeepSight:Essentially, this is a conflict between bottom-up causation and top-down causation. Even as a materialist, I have often had to argue that not everything is determined bottom-up, that free will is therefore a real thing and so on. I've had some rather heated and prolonged discussions with several rather dismissive atheists over these issues in other places in the past. And I think I stand on solid ground because several of the consciousness researchers whose books I have read agree with my assessment, that there is in fact a third position which preserves free will decision-making and other varieties of top-down causation within a materialistic framework. That's why I call myself an emergent materialist, since I consider both life and consciousness as emergent properties of complex material systems. Emergentism maintains there is both bottom-up and top-down causation, but that they are both understandable materially. In the case of consciousness, top-down causation is accomplished through virtual or symbolic processing of information. In that sense, a reason for doing something (like a decision), is different than a physical cause for doing something (like a reflex). But there is no need to reify consciousness into some immaterial spirit, though it is certainly immaterial in the sense of being virtual. DeepSight: I contend that save there exist a being which inhabits the body, there could be no such thing as the senses, no such thing as thought, and no such thing as emotion.The emergentist position is similar, in saying that the senses, thought, and emotions all depend on the complete system, on all the parts working together in a certain way, and do not exist without that whole, or at least not in the same way. Another way of conceptualizing the emergentist position is by saying that the whole really is greater than the sum of the parts in the sense of exerting top-down causation and operating by any number of new and different rules. In that sense, psychology and logic will never be reduced to chemistry or physics, as reductionists and eliminative materialists like to think. This is why a systems approach to consciousness studies holds much more promise. It actually tackles important questions on the appropriate level of organization. DeepSight: I say that a robot cannot taste an orange, or enjoy sex, however it may be formed, now or in the future.All of this boils down to what philosopher David Chalmers called "the hard problem" of consciousness research: qualia. For experience to happen there must be a being to experience it. I have read several materialistic critiques of this problem. My take is that consciousness must necessarily be an emergent property of life which is already evolutionarily organized into selves (not all of life is). Of course, that pushes the problem of the organization of selves further down the evolutionary tree, but the problem becomes much simpler to tackle that way. From my point of view, the self-organization of evolution must necessarily create selves as one possible survival strategy - in the sense that plants, for instance, have a different strategy based on sophisticated chemical reactions. Anyway, those are a few generalizations about my position, which I continue to develop through my reading. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 9:09am On Feb 05, 2022 |
LordReed. Just a passing thought I thought to drop. I have told you before about my thoughts about the root of reality being something I call an infinite field of potentialities. The mind is like a minuscule droptlet of that infinite field of potentialities. This is why a mind is a terrible thing to trifle with: because a mind can do almost anything. The brain is only the physical tool for the expression and manifestation of the activity of the mind. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 9:18am On Feb 05, 2022 |
DeepSight: Why does it need a brain to express it's activity? You say it is in a field of infinite potentialities so why not express itself without the limitation of a physical body? Won't it be better to express itself in the infinite instead of acquiring a needless limitation? |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 9:31am On Feb 05, 2022 |
LordReed: Good question and the answer I believe is that such a field is purely intangible and can only be expressed in the physical realm through physical means. Physical expression being just one of virtually infinite forms of expression conceivable to it. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 9:56am On Feb 05, 2022 |
DeepSight: Sure but why the limit of a brain though, why not just create physical realities that don't require such a limit? There is a Star Trek character and race called Q that are interdimensional beings that have practical omnipotence that is not limited by any physical body yet can create themselves any physical body they desire. Why are we not like that if this field of infinite potentialities is the case? |
Re: Matter And Mind by PastorAIO: 10:19am On Feb 05, 2022 |
There is this notion of parallel universes whereby every possibility and permutation of possibilities get their full expression each in their own universe parallel to the others. So there might be a parallel universe in which Deepsight is a girl. Another in which he is an oyinbo. Another in which he has a 15 inch penis. Another in which he is impotent and can't even get it hard. etc etc etc. As there are an infinite number of these parallel universes anything we can imagine has it's own universe. So therefore.... There may be a universe indeed where the mind expresses itself without the use of a brain or any physicality. We just happen to be living in the universe where the brain is a vehicle for the minds expression. So the question of 'why' things are the way the are becomes moot. Our universe is not so unique or wonderful as we seem to think. Things are every other way too, but we just only know this version of possibilities. Somewhere on another parallel universe Deepsight has just discovered that she's is pregnant again for the umpteenth time. She has not even graduated school cert. yet she is distracted by thoughts of why the grass is purple rather than any other colour, in fact she starts to fantasise about a possible world where the grass is green and she is a bloke. See as I'm just reminding myself of the Loki show on Disney. 1 Like |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 10:34am On Feb 05, 2022 |
LordReed: As Pastor AIO has rightly said, remember that this may be just one version of infinite possibilities. I will only add that such an infinite field may not necessarily be self conscious even if it may birth self conscious beings. And many gradations down the line any combination of possibilities could arrive at some ET somewhere whose school science project was creating this world. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 10:37am On Feb 05, 2022 |
PastorAIO: You just stated a speculation and then made a conclusion based on that speculation as though it has been established as fact. Not how this works. It is fine to speculate that there are infinite universes but until it is established as fact you don't get to make conclusions based on it. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 11:33am On Feb 05, 2022 |
LordReed: Where's your sense of dazzle. Your sense of wonder. He just dropped some wonder dust for us right there, and you failed to be dazzled. That's very worrisome. He wasn't being either scientific or empirical - deliberately so. He wasn't seeking to prove or conclude anything. He was tossing forward brilliant and wild thoughts of what world's may be. And he was doing so humorously. So where's your sense of humor too. |
Re: Matter And Mind by LordReed(m): 12:10pm On Feb 05, 2022 |
DeepSight: I have learnt to separate my fantasy from my reality. I can indulge in fantasy right up there with the likes of Tolkien or George Lucas but when I am discussing the nature of reality I am not going to confuse Lucas or Tolkien for reality. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Matter And Mind by PastorAIO: 12:41pm On Feb 05, 2022 |
Re: Matter And Mind by killyaselfie: 1:23pm On Feb 05, 2022 |
PastorAIO: So the gist of it is that there is an infinitely small probability that another PastorAIO exists somewhere in the universe. |
Re: Matter And Mind by DeepSight(m): 2:07pm On Feb 05, 2022 |
LordReed: Oh what a bore. |
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