killyaselfie:



*copied from a website.
The second problem for dualists is the problem of deep personality changes following brain injury. If the mind and brain are separate, the mind is the seat of consciousness (and presumably personality) and the mind communicates with the brain only to pull the puppet’s strings, why would a brain injury alter who a person is? The classic case is that of Phineas Gage. In 1848, Gage was blasting rock to build a rail line when a charge prematurely exploded, sending the tamping rod he was using through his frontal lobe. Amazingly, he was conscious following the accident, but some time later, physician Dr. John Martyn Harlow wrote

The equilibrium or balance, so to speak, between his intellectual faculties and animal propensities, seems to have been destroyed. He is fitful, irreverent, indulging at times in the grossest profanity (which was not previously his custom), manifesting but little deference for his fellows, impatient of restraint or advice when it conflicts with his desires, at times pertinaciously obstinate, yet capricious and vacillating, devising many plans of future operations, which are no sooner arranged than they are abandoned in turn for others appearing more feasible. A child in his intellectual capacity and manifestations, he has the animal passions of a strong man. Previous to his injury, although untrained in the schools, he possessed a well-balanced mind, and was looked upon by those who knew him as a shrewd, smart businessman, very energetic and persistent in executing all his plans of operation. In this regard his mind was radically changed, so decidedly that his friends and acquaintances said he was ‘no longer Gage.’

I have been following the conversation but not been able to comment due to some pressing engagements that has left me with not enough time to respond the way I would want to.

Still much busy . But I would hurriedly respond to the above.

Before anyone starts running away with the inferences drawn from what happened to Gage, the following should be considered;

Was Gage ,before that unfortunate incident , aware of himself as soul occupying a physical body?

If he was ,is there any evidence that he has been functioning from the position where he sees himself as a soul occupying a physical body or a mind having a brain that helps him to process thoughts?


The answers to the above would help determine accurately what may have led to the personality changes observed.

While I await the answers, I would like to mention that the concept of soul propagated by certain religious groups, Christianity especially, is not what I subscribe to .

That one is based on a literary interpretation of the genesis account. It is misleading.

No God breathed into man to make him a living soul. That never happened.

Soul is not created nor can it be destroyed in hell after judgement if it fails to surrender it's life to someone.

Those statements are religious bladderdash.

By tomorrow or after then, I would share my full thoughts on the discussion.

I thought we would have moved past this point as I expected deepsight to have by now provided something as evidence to back all his brilliant postulations.

I also remember Lordreed asking for something like a demonstration and the benefits that can come from this knowledge of knowing oneself as soul. Nothing has been given since that time till now.

triplechoice:


I have been following the conversation but not been able to comment due to some pressing engagements that has left me with not enough time to respond the way I would want to.

Still much busy . But I would hurriedly respond to the above.

Before anyone starts running away with the inferences drawn from what happened to Gage, the following should be considered;

Was Gage ,before that unfortunate incident , aware of himself as soul occupying a physical body?

Its not a very useful point to quibble about as no serious discussant would ever deny the fact that the brain plays a significant role in the deployment of the being. That damage to the brain could significantly alter the experience and interaction of a being is a given, so much so that it is almost pedantic to raise it.

I thought we would have moved past this point as I expected deepsight to have by now provided something as evidence to back all his brilliant postulations.

Sorry oh, I have no evidence to offer - certainly not of the E = MC² variety and I made that clear from the get go.

triplechoice:


I have been following the conversation but not been able to comment due to some pressing engagements that has left me with not enough time to respond the way I would want to.

Still much busy . But I would hurriedly respond to the above.

Before anyone starts running away with the inferences drawn from what happened to Gage, the following should be considered;

Was Gage ,before that unfortunate incident , aware of himself as soul occupying a physical body?

If he was ,is there any evidence that he has been functioning from the position where he sees himself as a soul occupying a physical body or a mind having a brain that helps him to process thoughts?


The answers to the above would help determine accurately what may have led to the personality changes observed.

While I await the answers, I would like to mention that the concept of soul propagated by certain religious groups, Christianity especially, is not what I subscribe to .

That one is based on a literary interpretation of the genesis account. It is misleading.

No God breathed into man to make him a living soul. That never happened.

Soul is not created nor can it be destroyed in hell after judgement if it fails to surrender it's life to someone.

Those statements are religious bladderdash.

By tomorrow or after then, I would share my full thoughts on the discussion.

I thought we would have moved past this point as I expected deepsight to have by now provided something as evidence to back all his brilliant postulations.

I also remember Lordreed asking for something like a demonstration and the benefits that can come from this knowledge of knowing oneself as soul. Nothing has been given since that time till now.

What is a soul?
The anecdote is to show the mind is generated by “chemicals and neurons” despite the protestations of the religious. This isn’t about if Gage saw himself as a “soul” but how damage to his brain caused damage to his mind. It shows that the functions that they claim the thing they call soul performs are really performed by the brain and it doesn’t need a soul to explain the functioning.

You claim religious conception of soul is bladderdash. You are not going to provide anything but subjective and unfounded statements so what makes you think your conception of soul isn’t claptrap?

I mean, the fact that’s there is no universal definition of this undetectable soul that isn’t needed for anything except to terrorize the gullible, indicates that it is a ruse.

The only time a soul is useful is when the leaders of religion are trying to terrify their sheep with supernatural punishment.

Deepsight’s postulations are the definition of pseudo profound bullshit. Very prolix but not saying anything valid. An expert in fallacious reasoning.

DeepSight:


Its not a very useful point to quibble about as no serious discussant would ever deny the fact that the brain plays a significant role in the deployment of the being. That damage to the brain could significantly alter the experience and interaction of a being is a given, so much so that it is almost pedantic to raise it.



Sorry oh, I have no evidence to offer - certainly not of the E = MC² variety and I made that clear from the get go.

Oh. You should have allowed him to answer himself.

You answering for him ,I am afraid may have defeated the purpose of raising those points.

Don't forget he has held on to a different position other than yours and the copied piece was meant to solidify his position. So why answer for him?

killyaselfie:


What is a soul?
The anecdote is to show the mind is generated by “chemicals and neurons” despite the protestations of the religious. This isn’t about if Gage saw himself as a “soul” but how damage to his brain caused damage to his mind. It shows that the functions that they claim the thing they call soul performs are really performed by the brain and it doesn’t need a soul to explain the functioning.

You claim religious conception of soul is bladderdash. You are not going to provide anything but subjective and unfounded statements so what makes you think your conception of soul isn’t claptrap?

I mean, the fact that’s there is no universal definition of this undetectable soul that isn’t needed for anything except to terrorize the gullible, indicates that it is a ruse.

The only time a soul is useful is when the leaders of religion are trying to terrify their sheep with supernatural punishment.

I will respond tomorrow. Don't conclude yet .

Whether you agree or not, science is also, even though indirectly, still in search of the true essence of our being. And once it succeeds in that regard, you don't expect it would be labeled soul.It certainly would be called something else.

Don't jump the gun yet.

triplechoice:


I will respond tomorrow. Don't conclude yet .

Whether you agree or not, science is also, even though indirectly, still in search of the true essence of our being. And once it succeeds in that regard, you don't expect it would be labeled soul.It certainly would be called something else.

Don't jump the gun yet.

Science isn’t in search of “the essence of our being”. There is success already in the field of neurology and the role of the brain in personhood has already been established.

You have nothing to say that can move the needle of this discussion other than proving the existence of whatever you call soul.

If you think Deepsight’s postulations are brilliant, there is nothing that you can come up it that will be convincing.

killyaselfie:


Science isn’t in search of “the essence of our being”. There is success already in the field of neurology and the role of the brain in personhood has already been established.

You have nothing to say that can move the needle of this discussion other than proving the existence of whatever you call soul.

If you think Deepsight’s postulations are brilliant, there is nothing that you can come up it that will be convincing.

Just calm down. Your response shows you don't have a single clue about what I want to say later.

It is not what you think. The word soul doesn't fully describe it. The use of that word is what is triggering your response. So I understand..

And anyway I am not responding just because of you alone and so whatever you think at this point can't stop me.

In order to have a balanced judgement on anything one needs to listen to both sides of the "story" even when the other side is nonsense to you..

triplechoice:


Just calm down. Your response shows you don't have a single clue about what I want to say later.

It is not what you think. The word soul doesn't fully describe it. The use of that word is what is triggering your response. So I understand..

And anyway I am not responding just because of you alone and so whatever you think at this point can't stop me.

In order to have a balanced judgement on anything one needs to listen to both sides of the "story" even when the other side is nonsense to you..

There that they go with the condescension. “Calm down”. Just present your so called soul or whatever you call it and save the sermonizing.

killyaselfie:


There that they go with the condescension. “Calm down”. Just present your so called soul or whatever you call it and save the sermonizing.

No. It is not condescending. You need to calm down since I already promised tomorrow. Jam the "road" typing this.

I want to respond to everything here that I have not had the opportunity to respond to. That is it. Cheers

triplechoice:


In order to have a balanced judgement on anything one needs to listen to both sides of the "story" even when the other side is nonsense to you..

Medieval churchmen didnt listen to heretics, remember - they burnt them. And our modern "scientific" friends are very like-minded with those medieval churchmen. They also burn heretics.

Friend, lower your expectations.

triplechoice:


No. It is not condescending. You need to calm down since I already promised tomorrow. Jam the "road" typing this.

I want to respond to everything here that I have not had the opportunity to respond to. That is it. Cheers

And like I said, all you will come up with will be claptrap just like the balderdash of religion.

DeepSight:


Medieval churchmen didnt listen to heretics, remember - they burnt them. And our modern "scientific" friends are very like-minded with those medieval churchmen. They also burn heretics.

Friend, lower your expectations.

What a jackass. If calling your asinine postulations unfounded equates “burning the heretics” then this is a well deserved immolation.

killyaselfie:


What a jackass. If calling your asinine postulations unfounded equates “burning the heretics” then this is a well deserved immolation.

I can't be perturbed with your insults, little man, given your preposterous description of thoughts as physical matter.

It's quite comical watching someone who is able to utter such scientific blasphemy pompously waltz around claiming the scientific high ground.

Too comical.

DeepSight:


I can't be perturbed with your insults, little man, given your preposterous description of thoughts as physical matter.

It's quite comical watching someone who is able to utter such scientific blasphemy pompously waltz around claiming the scientific high ground.

Too comical.

Comical says the clown who thinks the functions of the brain are performed by invisible pixies. All that grey on your head and still sound as clueless as ever.

Thoughts are products of physical matter no matter how much you object.

killyaselfie:


Comical says the clown who thinks the function of the brain are performed by invisible pixies. All that grey on your head and still sound as clueless as ever.

Thoughts are products of physical matter no matter how much you object.

What, are we withdrawing to saying only that they are products of matter - haba. Don't be afraid. You already declared them matter. Have the courage of your conviction.

DeepSight:


What, are we withdrawing to saying only that they are products of matter - haba. Don't be afraid. You already declared them matter. Have the courage of your conviction.

Thinking is a material process regardless if I say it’s a product of matter or distilled to the matter involved in the process.

Tell us about your magical pixies.
Your nonsense depends on the credulity and ignorance of your interlocutor that’s why you vibe with people like a TenQ and Sonmvayina. Explain your stance about the immaterial or please stfu.

killyaselfie:


Thoughts is a material process regardless if I say it’s a product of matter or distilled to the matter involves on the process.

Tell us about your magical pixies.

Just don't run away from it. Thoughts are matter you said. I even brought you the definition of matter as having mass and occupying space and you boldly said that when written down on paper, such meets the definition. Nevermind that any child would spot that you must have a thought before writing anything down in representation of it. Oh nevermind that at all.

Thoughts are matter, so you say. Just stick with it. It's one for the grandchildren.

DeepSight:


Just don't run away from it. Thoughts are matter you said. I even brought you the definition of matter as having mass and occupying space and you boldly said that when written down on paper, such meets the definition. Nevermind that any child would spot that you must have a thought before writing anything down in representation of it. Oh nevermind that at all.

Thoughts are matter, so you say. Just stick with it. It's one for the grandchildren.

Thoughts are products of immaterial fairies at the root of consciousness, so you say. The product of grandchildren raised in a benighted society like yours

killyaselfie:


Your nonsense depends on the credulity and ignorance of your interlocutor that’s why you vibe with people like a TenQ and Sonmvayina. Explain your stance about the immaterial or please stfu.

It is to be noted that this thread has been generally free of vulgarities. Too much to hope that you could leave it as decent as you found it?

DeepSight:


It is to be noted that this thread has been generally free of vulgarities. Too much to hope that you could leave it as decent as you found it?

Stfu

killyaselfie:


Stfu

Pele. Good afternoon.

DeepSight:


Pele. Good afternoon.

Stfu

TenQ:

Why dont you look at it this way sir.
1. The Body is a Slave to the Mind.

I have looked at it in many ways, and I think you ignored how I see it and are trying to tell me to see it your way, which is like telling me to ignore what I see with my own eyes and mind and just believe what you say, which will make me a slave to you.

Sorry sir, but buda does not believe because buda can ask and knock and seek and does not read only one book so as not to become malnourished. But I'll do some just so you understand how buda sees it.

TenQ:
1. Why do you think Jesus distinguishes your mind from the "needless soul"?

Because the soul was a requirement in his day. Something needed to go to hell and we all know it wasn't the body, which ended up 6 feet deep as worm food.

TenQ:
2. If the heart is sometimes used synonymously with the mind, what then is the soul as referred to in these scriptures above if it is needless?

It is a requirement for those who need to believe. Only ignorant people will sometimes use heart synonymously with mind, and even then, they will not claim their heart is being attacked when they mind is attacked, and if they do they'd mean something different.

Your soul is irrelevant to me TenQ, because it would be wrong of me to focus on your soul and not on TenQ who is before me.

TenQ:

In summary, the more ENLIGHTENED (Educated), STRONG and TRAINED our mind/soul is, the more Cultured our Bodies appear in the Society.

We do not educate your soul, TenQ, we educate your mind.

And I do not appreciate the dishonesty that makes you attempt to make the two one without first establishing "mind/soul".

budaatum:


I have looked at it in many ways, and I think you ignored how I see it and are trying to tell me to see it your way, which is like telling me to ignore what I see with my own eyes and mind and just believe what you say, which will make me a slave to you.

Sorry sir, but buda does not believe because buda can ask and knock and seek and does not read only one book so as not to become malnourished. But I'll do some just so you understand how buda sees it.


Because the soul was a requirement in his day. Something needed to go to hell and we all know it wasn't the body, which ended up 6 feet deep as worm food.


It is a requirement for those who need to believe. Only ignorant people will sometimes use heart synonymously with mind, and even then, they will not claim their heart is being attacked when they mind is attacked, and if they do they'd mean something different.

Your soul is irrelevant to me TenQ, because it would be wrong of me to focus on your soul and not on TenQ who is before me.

I can see that it is by CHOICE you refusing the idea of the soul of a man. It doesn't matter what even Jesus says: I guess we have become wiser than the Creator at this contemporary age.

Notwithstanding, Mr Buda, I didn't ignore what you wrote. I only saw loopholes in your train of thought and I don't want you to be emotional about it. We could all learn together. We can go slowly through those points.
About The Body is a Slave to the Mind.
Animals have a mind/soul just as humans have their mind/soul.

Is this a true statement or not?

What then rules the other in an animal: is it the animals body or the animals mind/soul?

TenQ:

I can see that it is by CHOICE you refusing the idea of the soul of a man. It doesn't matter what even Jesus says: I guess we have become wiser than the Creator at this contemporary age.

I see we are back to the soul.

Did you not notice how often Jesus said, "it was written". Are you not aware that much has been written since Jesus time?

Where he is written to have said, "greater things will you do", it also means you will read more and know more that he did instead of just believing what you read in one book.

TenQ:
Is this a true statement or not?

What then rules the other in an animal: is it the animals body or the animals mind/soul?

TenQ, does your soul rule you or do you rule yourself with your mind?

"Mind/soul" is a false statement. The two are not the same thing.

budaatum:

I see we are back to the soul.

Did you not notice how often Jesus said, "it was written". Are you not aware that much has been written since Jesus time?

Where he is written to have said, "greater things will you do", it also means you will read more and know more that he did instead of just believing what you read in one book.


TenQ, does your soul rule you or do you rule yourself with your mind?

"Mind/Soul" is a false statement. The two are not the same thing.

Let me avoid using the term SOUL as it seems to offend you.

Let me rephrase:
About The Body is a Slave to the Mind.
Animals have a mind just as humans have their mind.

Is this a true statement or not?

What then rules the other in an animal: is it the animals body or the animals mind?

TenQ:

I can see that it is by CHOICE you refusing the idea of the soul of a man.

It is not by choice, TenQ, but by understanding.

Jesus is also written to have said, "in as much as you have done for your neighbours whom you see before you, some far away God you see not is pleased", so, it would be remiss and ignorant of me to concern myself with the soul of TenQ that I see not while ignoring the actual TenQ that I see before me. And if I am concerned about my own supposed soul, I would be forgetting how much more valuable I am than the birds in the sky and be worrying about the things of tomorrow so to say, when I in fact have enough of todays things to concern myself with.

Sorry for not regurgitating Bible. The appropriate verses can be found here.

TenQ:

Let me rephrase:
About The Body is a Slave to the Mind.
Animals have a mind just as humans have their mind.

Is this a true statement or not?

I'll accept it as close to the truth that "Animals have a mind just as humans have their mind".

TenQ:
What then rules the other in an animal: is it the animals body or the animals mind?

Instinct, mostly. Which is why they poo anywhere and don't build houses.

Humans, on the other hand, grow their mind by developing their intellect so that they can "Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”.

Read this or listen, to see the difference between instinct led animals and human mind use.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cpkCP29Dhg

TenQ:

Let me avoid using the term SOUL as it seems to offend you.

You conveniently ignored my question.

budaatum:

TenQ, does your soul rule you or do you rule yourself with your mind?

budaatum:

We do not educate your soul, TenQ, we educate your mind.

The mind is our Intellect which is one of the functions of the soul.
Our Soul have the attributes of Will, Emotion and Intellect. It cannot be simpler than that.

budaatum:

And I do not appreciate the dishonesty that makes you attempt to make the two one without first establishing "mind/soul".

You have started with your unthoughtful words again. About the mind and soul, I told you that the mind is a subset of the soul. The mind is limited to reasoning and intellectual ability who h I consider as restrictive. Our soul includes our WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT (mind). For your sake instead of strictly using the Soul as it is proper, I use the phrase mind/soul. This consideration by me you consider as DISHONESTY!?

What does it mean to be dishonest? Why should I act with you with deceit? What have I to gain by trying to deceive you? If you cannot point them out, it means you have been rash and uncouth in your choice of words. It is possible to disagree on issues without spewing out negative emotions that lead to broken relationship.

budaatum:



You conveniently ignored my question.

My mind is a subset of my Soul. I think with my mind. I store and process data and information with my mind. Logic is processed by the mind. The summation of everything the mind does is our INTELLECT.

I have repeatedly told you that our SOUL consist of the Faculty of our WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT.

How you refuse to comprehend this baffles me.

Now, please answer my question:

Let me rephrase:
About The Body is a Slave to the Mind.
Animals have a mind just as humans have their mind.

Is this a true statement or not?

What then rules the other in an animal: is it the animals body or the animals mind?



Your other question:

TenQ, does your soul rule you or do you rule yourself with your mind?

My Soul (through my WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT (mind)) rule my Body.
I subject my Soul to the knowledge of God's words and God's will so that my Soul acquires WISDOM to rule my body. This make me direct my WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT to rule my Body excellently

If not for this, I could be come a savage being