Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Romans 11 has not be fulfilled yet, the old testament prophets all prophesied Israel's restoration. This would take place at the last wee of Daniel's 70 weeks.

Maestro21:


No you missed the context. Verse 6-7 precedes the man of sin being revealed. It says so.

Good good, read verse 8. It tells you what Jesus will do when He comes, which ties back to verse 1.

He will destroy the lawless one with the splendor of His coming. Unless after reading through 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8, you want to tell us Jesus would come twice

OkCornel:


Regarding the end times, how many resurrections do we have in the scripture?

There are two resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous and that of the unrighteous, infact during the great tribulation the two witnesses killed would be resurrected to heaven, meaning the resurrection of the righteous takes place more than once.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

But however, the resurrection of the rapture would take place in twice. One at the rapture and secondly at the second coming of christ.

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8;

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED UNTO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy BY THE SPLENDOR OF HIS COMING


Steep and Maestro21, read 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8. What are things Jesus would do when He comes back?

OkCornel:


The tribulation of the church has been ongoing since the era of the Roman empire. That has not changed.

And to your poser, the church will always be there during the great tribulation even though the word "church" was not used by John between Chapter 5 to Chapter 18 of Revelation.

Take note of this, after the tribulation of those days, Jesus mentioned He and His angels will gather the elect from the entire earth - Matthew 24 v 29-31

Who are the elect? The elect is the church. Do you need proof?

Colossians 3 v 11-12;
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


Is the elect the church? Yes or No

The tribulation is for the world but particularly the jews. It is also referred to as the time of Jacob's trouble. Christian tribulation is not what Jesus referred to and people often muddy things up. The tribulation that is coming is like nothing the world has ever seen.

Second, the church is currently the elect you are right, but the church will be raptured and the calender goes back to the Jewish calendar. Daniel's last week of 7 years. At that time, the elect will be the Jews. Read Romans 11:25-28 Paul says so. Isaiah prophesied it as well in Isaiah 11: 11-16. They also tell you who the remnant is like I said before.

Steep:
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Romans 11 has not be fulfilled yet, the old testament prophets all prophesied Israel's restoration. This would take place at the last wee of Daniel's 70 weeks.

You beat me to this. But I added Isaiah 11:11-16 for him as well.

Maestro21:


The tribulation is for the world but particularly the jews. It is also referred to as the time of Jacob's trouble. Christian tribulation is not what Jesus referred to and people often muddy things up. The tribulation that is coming is like nothing the world has ever seen.

Second, the church is currently the elect you are right, but the church will be raptured and the calender goes back to the Jewish calendar. Daniel's last week of 7 years. At that time, the elect will be the Jews. Read Romans 11:25-28 Paul says so. Isaiah prophesied it as well in Isaiah 11: 11-16. They also tell you who the remnant is like I said before.

If the church is the elect as you've said, then which elect is Christ coming for after the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

OkCornel:


Good good, read verse 8. It tells you what Jesus will do when He comes, which ties back to verse 1.

He will destroy the lawless one with the splendor of His coming. Unless after reading through 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8, you want to tell us Jesus would come twice

You are missing the point.

In the rapture, Jesus does not come to the earth. The Bible says he is in the air, and we gather to meet him there and continue to be with him forever.

In the 2nd coming, Jesus comes down to this earth. He touches the earth. He lands in Jerusalem. He comes down with the church.

That is when he destroys the antichrist. During the 2nd coming.

OkCornel:


If the church is the elect as you've said, then which elect is Christ coming for after the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

You are probably not reading me well or cross-chekcing my references.

I said in the church age the church is the elect. But that church age will end at the rapture and the order goes back to the Jews. They become the elect again like they were prior to Jesus coming to die.

During the tribulation (particularly the great one) they will be the elect again. That is what Isaiah 11 and Romans 11 that we referred to showed you.

Isaiah 11:11-16 states it CLEARLY.

Maestro21:


The tribulation is for the world but particularly the jews. It is also referred to as the time of Jacob's trouble. Christian tribulation is not what Jesus referred to and people often muddy things up. The tribulation that is coming is like nothing the world has ever seen.

Second, the church is currently the elect you are right, but the church will be raptured and the calender goes back to the Jewish calendar. Daniel's last week of 7 years. At that time, the elect will be the Jews. Read Romans 11:25-28 Paul says so. Isaiah prophesied it as well in Isaiah 11: 11-16. They also tell you who the remnant is like I said before.

The tribulation would be global. Matthew 24 - Jesus speaks on how this would affect the Jews. Revelation 7 v 9 - Apostle John saw the bigger picture. A multitude from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. These are the tribulation saints.

Remember in Revelation 12 v 17 - the fallen dragon would wage war against those who keep God's commands and are steadfast in their testimony of Jesus. These are both Jews & Gentiles.

Maestro21:



You are probably not reading me well or cross-chekcing my references.

I said in the church age the church is the elect. But that church age will end at the rapture and the order goes back to the Jews. They become the elect again like they were prior to Jesus coming to die.

During the tribulation (particularly the great one) they will be the elect again. That is what Isaiah 11 and Romans 11 that we referred to showed you.

Isaiah 11:11-16 states it CLEARLY.

so if I get you correctly, you are telling us that the elect Jesus and His Angels will come for after the great tribulation in Matthew 24 v 29-31 are only Jews?

OkCornel:


The tribulation would be global. Matthew 24 - Jesus speaks on how this would affect the Jews. Revelation 7 v 9 - Jon saw the bigger picture. A multitude from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. These are the tribulation saints.

Remember in Revelation 12 v 17 - the fallen dragon would wage war against those who keep God's commands and are steadfast in their testimony of Jesus. These are both Jews & Gentiles.

I agree that the tribulation is global but the antichrist will specifically target the believing Jews because he could not get the church. That is what Revelation 12 referred to.

Yes, some gentiles will be saved at the time but the calender is predominantly for the 'believing' jews just like some jews are still saved now even though the church age is predominantly for the gentiles.

OkCornel:


so if I get you correctly, you are telling us that the elect Jesus and His Angels will come for after the great tribulation in Matthew 24 v 29-31 are only Jews?

Yes predominantly because the church has been raptured at the time. The church will come back down with Jesus during the 2nd coming.

Also, just read Isaiah 11:12 it ties into Matthew 24 that you referred to.

Maestro21:


You are missing the point.

In the rapture, Jesus does not come to the earth. The Bible says he is in the air, and we gather to meet him there and continue to be with him forever.

In the 2nd coming, Jesus comes down to this earth. He touches the earth. He lands in Jerusalem. He comes down with the church.

That is when he destroys the antichrist. During the 2nd coming.

I see where the problem is coming from. You have assumed meeting the Lord in the air, and being with Him forever to mean being transported to Heaven. Paul is merely reiterating how the elect of God would be gathered in Matthew 24 v 29-31. Please show me where 1 Thessalonians 4 shows the church would be taken into Heaven.

Read the verse below and see how the elect would be gathered from one end of Heaven to the other AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Maestro21:


Yes predominantly because the church has been raptured at the time. The church will come back down with Jesus during the 2nd coming.

Also, just read Isaiah 11:12 it ties into Matthew 24 that you referred to.

So it is the Jews that would be gathered from the four winds, from one end of the Heavens to the other abi?

Maestro21:


You are missing the point.

In the rapture, Jesus does not come to the earth. The Bible says he is in the air, and we gather to meet him there and continue to be with him forever.

In the 2nd coming, Jesus comes down to this earth. He touches the earth. He lands in Jerusalem. He comes down with the church.

That is when he destroys the antichrist. During the 2nd coming.

Anyways, back to this point. In 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8. Did it mention Jesus would show up twice?

Maestro21:


I agree that the tribulation is global but the antichrist will specifically target the believing Jews because he could not get the church. That is what Revelation 12 referred to.

Yes, some gentiles will be saved at the time but the calender is predominantly for the 'believing' jews just like some jews are still saved now even though the church age is predominantly for the gentiles.

Please read

Revelation 7 v 9 - 14;
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 12 v 7
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Everyone is fair game irrespective of their tribe, language or nationality. As long as they are faithful to God's commands and steadfast in their testimony about Jesus.

OkCornel:
2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8;

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED UNTO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy BY THE SPLENDOR OF HIS COMING


Steep and Maestro21, read 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8. What are things Jesus would do when He comes back?

But this passage is straightforward.

Verse 1 states the coming of Jesus and our (i.e. Paul referring to the church) being gathered unto Him. That is all believers dead and alive including great tribulation saints.
Verse 3 states this would happen in a day. Not two separate day(s) ooo. It also states that this day won't come until the lawless one is revealed.
Verse 8 then states that Jesus would destroy the lawless one with the splendor OF HIS COMING.

To fit in the pre tribulation rapture doctrine in this passage means you have to separate the coming of the Jesus and the church being gathered unto Him in verse one as separate events on separate dates. But Paul clearly states otherwise, that this a one day event (see verse 3). Not two days event, with one day for pre-trib rapture and another day for his coming.

Maestro21:


Yes the church is the restrainer and no Paul did not say Jesus will not come for the church until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul starts verse 1 by saying he wants to share some information concerning the gathering of saints (rapture) and the coming of the lord (2nd coming). They are not the same events which is what I wanted to prove to you.

Since the rapture happens before the 2nd coming, Paul aims to address what must happen before both events.

so why did Paul in verse 3 refer to these events (second coming of Christ and the gathering of the church) as though it would happen on the same day? He wrote THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL the lawless one is revealed.

Maestro21:


You just skipped past the fact that Paul called it a last trump. You cannot refer to "last" if there was only one. So that shows you a gap in your theology. You have to know and then answer the question about the first trump because it will show you why Paul referred to the second trump as the last.

You still don't seem to get me. The other trumpet calls are the judgment trumpets in the book of revelation.

If according to you 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 is the last trump which is the pre-trib rapture. What do you make of the trumpet sound in Matthew 24 v 29-31 which comes after the great tribulation?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and Matthew 24 v 29-31 refers to the last trump, and Matthew 24 makes it clear this will happen after the great tribulation.

But if you disagree and still insist 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 refers to pre-trib rapture, then the trump in that verse is cannot be the last trump...as there will be another trumpet call after that one in Matthew 24

Maestro21:

Are you willing to have a meaningful debate devoid of name-calling? If you are, then I'll show you in so many ways where you have missed it. For e.g, your question could have started by asking when is the first trump? Also take note that trump is a sound which is not to be confused with the word trumpet which is the instrument.


Notice in the Matthew 24 which you quoted Jesus says 1. That Angels (plural) will cause his elects from the 4 corners of the earth to come to where Jesus is landing.
2. That all human eyes will see him as he descends to the earth.

Is this not different from.1 Corinthians 15 that you just quoted? In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says it happened in the twinkling of an eye which means it was so rapid that the human eye won't catch it. Paul pivots on this same teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where he says Jesus himself is the one who comes down and uses the voice of an arch angel to initiate the movement of Christians. That verse says nothing about more than one angel.

Don't you think you are confusing both events? Don't you think Matthew 24 is not the same event with 1 Corinthians 15?

I have more things to say but let me start here.

So raising someone from the dead will be a secret stuff?

Maestro21:


That is why I told you to also read verse 7 and 8.

Paul says something must happen before the gathering of saints (rapture) and the coming of the lord (2nd advent).

1. An apostasy. (Verse 3)
2. The removal of the restrainer (verse 6-7) (RAPTURE)


3. Man of sin revealed
4. 2nd adventure or coming of the lord.

God is the restrained (the holy spirit), nit the church. You think heaven is a place to enter by luck?? You don't want to die for God and prove you love him?? The antichrist is coming to test all souls on earth... better be prepared and know your God, and do exploits.

OkCornel:


I see where the problem is coming from. You have assumed meeting the Lord in the air, and being with Him forever to mean being transported to Heaven. Paul is merely reiterating how the elect of God would be gathered in Matthew 24 v 29-31. Please show me where 1 Thessalonians 4 shows the church would be taken into Heaven.

Read the verse below and see how the elect would be gathered from one end of Heaven to the other AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

I showed you Isaiah 11:11-16. It also mentions the Lord for a second time gathering his people from the 4 corners of the earth. It parallels perfectly with Matthew 24. One end of heaven to the other is horizon not "heaven". Literally saying the scattered Jews who ran away because of the great tribulation will be brought back supernaturally to Jerusalem when Jesus lands.

1 Thessalonians 4 also says "in the cloud" to let you know that the air being spoken about was not figurative. I can show you more but to me you are simply glossing over hard evidence.

OkCornel:


So it is the Jews that would be gathered from the four winds, from one end of the Heavens to the other abi?

Yes.

OkCornel:


Anyways, back to this point. In 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8. Did it mention Jesus would show up twice?

Because he is not showing up twice. The only other time he is coming back to the earth will be exactly like the first time he came. It will be physical and he will land on this earth. The angels told his disciples in Acts 1. But in the rapture Jesus is not coming down to the earth. He will be in the clouds and we will gather to him and be with him till 7 years after when we come back down with him to this earth.

OkCornel:


Please read

Revelation 7 v 9 - 14;
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 12 v 7
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Everyone is fair game irrespective of their tribe, language or nationality. As long as they are faithful to God's commands and steadfast in their testimony about Jesus.

This is people who got raptured after the great tribulation but before the 2nd coming do you agree?

Do you see any mention of Jesus being the one who brought these folks into heaven?

That is also a side talk, do you also notice the scripture says "they themselves have washed their robes"? What does the Bible say about the robe the church was to have- it says Jesus himself washed us. So different groups but we will veer off from your main arguments which is why I am not yet showing you more.

Maestro21:


Because he is not showing up twice. The only other time he is coming back to the earth will be exactly like the first time he came. It will be physical and he will land on this earth. The angels told his disciples in Acts 1. But in the rapture Jesus is not coming down to the earth. He will be in the clouds and we will gather to him and be with him till 7 years after when we come back down with him to this earth.

Please read Matthew 24, where does it show the gathering of saints would be on the earth?

1. It would be in the air
2. This would happen post tribulation. Let me post it for you.

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Maestro21:


This is people who got raptured after the great tribulation but before the 2nd coming do you agree?

Do you see any mention of Jesus being the one who brought these folks into heaven?

That is also a side talk, do you also notice the scripture says "they themselves have washed their robes"? What does the Bible say about the robe the church was to have- it says Jesus himself washed us. So different groups but we will veer off from your main arguments which is why I am not yet showing you more.

Per the bolded, I need to clarify something. Are you saying rapture would occur before the great tribulation? or after the great tribulation?

OkCornel:


But this passage is straightforward.

Verse 1 states the coming of Jesus and our (i.e. Paul referring to the church) being gathered unto Him. That is all believers dead and alive including great tribulation saints.
Verse 3 states this would happen in a day. Not two separate day(s) ooo. It also states that this day won't come until the lawless one is revealed.
Verse 8 then states that Jesus would destroy the lawless one with the splendor OF HIS COMING.

To fit in the pre tribulation rapture doctrine in this passage means you have to separate the coming of the Jesus and the church being gathered unto Him in verse one as separate events on separate dates. But Paul clearly states otherwise, that this a one day event (see verse 3). Not two days event, with one day for pre-trib rapture and another day for his coming.

Yes the passage is straight forward.

Verse 2 "day of christ". What is the day of christ?

It is the day of christ Paul says won't happen until some events happen first.

He said first thing is a lot of Christians will drop their faith. Then, the restrainer will be removed and then the man of sin will be revealed before the day of christ happens.

Simple and straightforward. The removal of the restrainer is the rapture.

OkCornel:


so why did Paul in verse 3 refer to these events (second coming of Christ and the gathering of the church) as though it would happen on the same day? He wrote THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL the lawless one is revealed.

The day he referred to was the day of christ. By the way, it is not one literal day.

Maestro21:


I showed you Isaiah 11:11-16. It also mentions the Lord for a second time gathering his people from the 4 corners of the earth. It parallels perfectly with Matthew 24. One end of heaven to the other is horizon not "heaven". Literally saying the scattered Jews who ran away because of the great tribulation will be brought back supernaturally to Jerusalem when Jesus lands.

1 Thessalonians 4 also says "in the cloud" to let you know that the air being spoken about was not figurative. I can show you more but to me you are simply glossing over hard evidence.

To prove to you the elect Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 are not only Jews, read Isaiah 66 v 18-24;

Isaiah 66 v 18-24;
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Maestro21:

The day he referred to was the day of christ. By the way, it is not one literal day.

Prove it with the scripture that the coming of the Lord is not a literal day.