Ken4Christ:


The description of Ezekiel's vision is remarkably different from that of the Book of Revelation.

1. That of Ezekiel had wings. No wings was mentioned in the book of Revelation.

2. Each of them had four faces. It is not the same with that of Revelation.

The chronology of events of the last days are so explicit in the book of Revelation.

1. The raptured saints were first seen in heaven symbolized by the four living creatures.

2. This was followed by the tribulation saints in Chapter 7.

And it brought an end to the church age.

Then God poured his wrath on the earth to avenge the persecution the church went through by the seven trumpet judgment.

After the judgment was over, his dealing with the Jews resumed by the two witnesses he sent.

As soon as the witnesses finished their ministry, the anti Christ was revealed and the false Christ was alse revealed. Both in chapter 13 of the book of Revelation.

Then, all that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 began to play out.

May the Lord grant you understanding.

Typing...
I'll complete my response later today.

The four living creatures in the book of Revelation had wings.

Read it here in Revelation 4 v 8;

Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’
who was, and is, and is to come.”


Still typing...
I'll complete my response later today.

OkCornel:


The bolded part of your message, where did Jesus or John or Paul mention this in their letters/sermons?

Where did they mention that the resurrection of the saints and transformation of their bodies would happen before the great tribulation?
Where was it mentioned that the saints, the elect of God would be gathered unto Christ before the great tribulation?

You have only paraphrased my questions to those claiming the saved will partake in the wrath of God during the tribulation (great tribulation).

Firstly, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. God has not appointed us to wrath.

MrDebonair:


You have only paraphrased my questions to those claiming the saved will partake in the wrath of God during the tribulation (great tribulation).

Firstly, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. God has not appointed us to wrath. If the Rapture does not come before the Tribulation then we will indeed suffer the wrath of God.

Secondly, Revelation 9:3–4: tells us that there will only be 144,000 people who will be protected during that time.

Furthermore, Revelation chapter 7, tells us who were sealed: 144,000 of the children of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. Those will be the only people during the Tribulation Period who will not be afflicted by the wrath of God. They will be supernaturally protected.

1 Thessalonians 5 v 9 speaks of the wrath of God's judgment on the day of the Lord (second coming of Christ), which is different from the wrath of Satan in Revelation 12 v 12 (which ushers in the great tribulation in Revelation 13 v 5-7)

God's wrath is different from Satan's wrath.

See Satan's wrath here;

Revelation 12 v 10-12;
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


The church would be very much around during the great tribulation.

Faithful saints (including John) around the world are referred to as those that have the testimony of Jesus.

See Revelation 19 v 10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Those that have the testimony of Jesus (the church) would be around during the great tribulation. The dragon would war against them.

Revelation 12 v 17;
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

MrDebonair

If you read Revelation 12 v 10-12 carefully, every true believer would face persecution, and where applicable would pay the ultimate price (their life).

You will see there are saints that were already in heaven when the dragon was cast down. They overcame by the blood of the lamb, AND THE WORDS OF THEIR TESTIMONY (about Jesus). Remember, every faithful believer (the church christ would come for at the first resurrection) are the ones that hold onto the testimony of Jesus.

Take note, they loved not THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH! It never said they escaped the dragon through pretribulation rapture. It said, they OVERCAME THE DEVIL, THE SERPENT, THE DRAGON.

Then you'll have saints which are still on earth facing the tribulation, yet to die. Those ones who face the great tribulation.

Revelation 12 v 10-12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

OkCornel:


Typing...
I'll complete my response later today.

The four living creatures in the book of Revelation had wings.

Read it here in Revelation 4 v 8;

Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’
who was, and is, and is to come.”


Still typing...
I'll complete my response later today.

OK. What about the description of their faces?

OkCornel:
MrDebonair

If you read Revelation 12 v 10-12 carefully, every true believer would face persecution, and where applicable would pay the ultimate price (their life).

You will see there are saints that were already in heaven when the dragon was cast down. They overcame by the blood of the lamb, AND THE WORDS OF THEIR TESTIMONY (about Jesus). Remember, every faithful believer (the church christ would come for at the first resurrection) are the ones that hold onto the testimony of Jesus.

Take note, they loved not THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH! It never said they escaped the dragon through pretribulation rapture. It said, they OVERCAME THE DEVIL, THE SERPENT, THE DRAGON.

Then you'll have saints which are still on earth facing the tribulation, yet to die. Those ones who face the great tribulation.

Revelation 12 v 10-12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I have explained to you in plain terms and with references. You don't have to accept my views. Have a nice day ahead.

MrDebonair:


I have explained to you in plain terms and with references. You don't have to accept my views. Have a nice day ahead.

No be fight na, we’re discussing not arguing.

It’s not about my views or your views, we’re discussing truth here.

So don’t feel triggered.

Ken4Christ:


OK. What about the description of their faces?

I’ll reply on my other post later today as I initially mentioned.

I've seen something interesting, the four living creatures in the book of revelation combines the attributes of the seraphim (6 wings), the ophanim (having eyes all around its body), and the cherubim (separated faces of the eagle, ox, man and eagle).

This is obviously not "raptured saints"

OkCornel:


No be fight na, we’re discussing not arguing.

It’s not about my views or your views, we’re discussing truth here.

So don’t feel triggered.

Being "caught up" in the air...Greek/ Hebrew translation is rapture from "Harpazo". Latin ....Rapturo. That's where rapture word is being coined from.
1 thessalonians 4
Matthew 24.
Mark 13.
Luke 21.
Explains it

The church will not partake in the wrath of God during tribulation/ great tribulation.


Just saying.

MrDebonair:


I understand you clearly. Rapture of the church is before tribulation. Being "caught up" in the air...Greek/ Hebrew translation is rapture from "Harpazo". Latin ....Rapturo. That's where rapture word is being coined from.
1 thessalonians 4
Matthew 24.
Mark 13.
Luke 21.
Explains it all in details.

Pre-tribulation ................Tribulation...........Great Tribulation..........Post tribulation.
Rapture...............................1260 days .............1260 days ..................Jesus second coming(1000 yrs reign)
Meet Jesus in the cloud...<<<<<<<<<<< 7 years>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus touch down at Mount Olive

The church will not partake in the wrath of God during tribulation/ great tribulation.

Rapture and Jesus second coming are two different events and not to be confused.

If you are saying rapture is after great tribulation then what you are saying is that the bridegroom attacks his bride, inflicts terror on her and then comes back to take her to dinner afterwards.

Just saying.

Let's see who the bride of the lamb is according to the book of Revelation. It's the new Jerusalem...and not the church as most people think.

Revelation 21 v 2;
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

The bride is not the church, the bride is the new Jerusalem.

It's the righteous acts of God's holy people that's the clothe of the bride. See Revelation 19 v 7-9.

The ones that'll make it to this supper of the lamb are the martyred saints. Remember in Revelation 7 v 9-15, these martyred saints are standing before God's throne in heaven already.

To further confirm it's the martyred and dead saints already before God's throne in heaven that'll attend that wedding between the lamb and his bride (the new Jerusalem)

Revelation 19 v 9 says
Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Connect that with Revelation 14 v 13 which says
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead WHICH DIE IN THE Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them,

Note, it never mentioned blessed are those who are escaped the great tribulation. It is those who dies in the Lord that are blessed.

MrDebonair, just to add to the above post.

The saints are not the bride of Christ. Because the bride of Christ cannot descend from heaven twice.
In Revelation 20, the partakers of the first resurrection (the church) will come back to life and reign with Christ for a 1,000 years.
Whereas, in Revelation 21 v 2, the bride (new Jerusalem) comes down to earth after the millennial reign of Christ.

OkCornel:


Let's see who the bride of the lamb is according to the book of Revelation;

Revelation 21 v 2;
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

The bride is not the church, the bride is the new Jerusalem.

It's the righteous acts of God's holy people that's the clothe of the bride. See Revelation 19 v 7-9.

The ones that'll make it to this supper of the lamb are the martyred saints. Remember in Revelation 7 v 9-15, these martyred saints are standing before God's throne in heaven already.

To further confirm it's the martyred and dead saints already before God's throne in heaven that'll attend that wedding between the lamb and his bride (the new Jerusalem)

Revelation 19 v 9 says
Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Connect that with Revelation 14 v 13 which says
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead WHICH DIE IN THE Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them,

Note, it never mentioned blessed are those who are escaped the great tribulation. It is those who dies in the Lord that are blessed.

The bride is the church
Ephesians 5 25 -27
Rev 19 7 -9
Rev 21 1-2
New Jerusalem is known as HolyCity...Rev 21 2 and 10.

New Jerusalem is not the church and not the bride. Jesus died for the people and not the city. Verse 9: The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”

OkCornel:
MrDebonair, just to add to the above post.

The saints are not the bride of Christ. Because the bride of Christ cannot descend from heaven twice.
In Revelation 20, the partakers of the first resurrection (the church) will come back to life and reign with Christ for a 1,000 years.
Whereas, in Revelation 21 v 2, the bride (new Jerusalem) comes down to earth after the millennial reign of Christ.

New Jerusalem "prepared as" bride. Used as a Metaphor
Clearly obvious the church is the bride.

Anywhere Jesus is...the bride goes with him.

MrDebonair:


New Jerusalem "prepared as" bride. Clearly obvious the church is the bride.

Anywhere Jesus is...the bride goes with him.

New Jerusalem is the bride, not the church.

See Revelation 21 v 9-10 as further confirmation.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

The church has already reigned with Christ as priests and kings in the millennial kingdom. The bride (New Jerusalem) comes down to earth after the millennial reign of Christ (just after the war with Gog & Magog)

FYI: Obonujoker, SeraphEl, Jokerman

MrDebonair:


New Jerusalem "prepared as" bride. Used as a Metaphor
Clearly obvious the church is the bride.

Anywhere Jesus is...the bride goes with him.

See Revelation 21 v 9-10

MrDebonair:

The bride is the church
Ephesians 5 25 -27
Rev 19 7 -9
Rev 21 1-2
New Jerusalem is known as HolyCity...Rev 21 2 and 10.

New Jerusalem is not the church and not the bride. Jesus died for the people and not the city. Verse 9: The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”

See Revelation 21 v 9-10

OkCornel:


New Jerusalem is the bride, not the church.

See Revelation 21 v 9-10 as further confirmation.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

The church has already reigned with Christ as priests and kings in the millennial kingdom. The bride (New Jerusalem) comes down to earth after the millennial reign of Christ (just after the war with Gog & Magog)

FYI: Obonujoker, SeraphEl, Jokerman

Well will leave you to it. The church is the bride and not a great city..Holy City which was described in measurements. New Jerusalem as bride was used in metaphorical terms.

MrDebonair:

The bride is the church
Ephesians 5 25 -27
Rev 19 7 -9
Rev 21 1-2
New Jerusalem is known as HolyCity...Rev 21 2 and 10.

New Jerusalem is not the church and not the bride. Jesus died for the people and not the city. Verse 9: The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”

Ephesians 5 v 25-27 is a different context altogether. Paul was admonishing men to love their wives unconditionally, just as christ loved the church. The church was never explicitly called the bride of Christ.

Moreover, Paul was not the one who wrote the book of Revelation.

That being said, the bride of the lamb only descends once. In revelation, the bride of the lamb is explicitly and unambiguously called the New Jerusalem The bride would descend to earth after the millennial reign of Christ.

MrDebonair:


Well will leave you to it. The church is the bride and not a great city..Holy City which was described in measurements. New Jerusalem as bride was used in metaphorical terms.

Revelation 21 v 9-10 clears all doubts on who the bride of the lamb is

Offpoint1:

The stars will fall
Revelation also mentioned falling of stars to the earth

Explain what those stars are, because I don't want to believe it's the literal stars cuz that will be the greatest jokes. Even the smallest star EBLM J0555-57Ab is X bigger than the earth.

And Isaiah and Mathew.

"Stars"- it is exactly like those we call movie stars, football stars, music stars etc.

Therefore, it means even the powers and rulers and the hottest and the best movers and shakers of heaven will be forcefully evicted from there to be brought down to earth for Judgement on that terrible day.

kareemkamil:


Are u saying Jesus is coming to wicked mankind

Yes!

Did He not warn mankind that if you gave Him Kindness, He shall give you kindness in return? (An eye, for an eye)

Or if you gave him wickednes, He shall give wickedness in return?

Mathew 25:33-43
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory....
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him,...

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

Dtruthspeaker:


And Isaiah and Mathew.

"Stars"- it is exactly like those we call movie stars, football stars, music stars etc.

Therefore, it means even the powers and rulers and the hottest and the best movers and shakers of heaven will be forcefully evicted from there to be brought down to earth for Judgement on that terrible day.

Mat 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Rev 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Mat 13:25
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

None of these verses are referring to any earthly stars, they're All talking about heavenly bodies



Explain to me

Offpoint1:

Mat 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Rev 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Mat 13:25
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

None of these verses are referring to any earthly stars, they're All talking about heavenly bodies

Explain to me

Yes!

Heaven and earth are Brothers maybe twins like Esau and Jacob. Heaven is first and Senior Genesis 1:1

Heaven means spirit world where your soul (the star) lives. Hence "let your light so shine".

And earth means this physical world and it's skin which you know too much and even fatally more than your heaven living self.

And the correct order is that heaven leads earth hence the prayer of 'As it is heaven"!

But Satan has deceived men such that it is the earth man (flesh) that is controlling the heavenly man.

And the earth man has therefore corrupted and dirtied the heavenly man star, hence "Proverbs 8:36: But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death".

So if earth is very very dirty it means that heaven is like Aba dump site.

And you know God does not tolerate dirt.

And even among we sinners, what do we do with lands and gardens that have turned to dustbins?

WE BURN THEM ALL!

Dtruthspeaker:


Yes!

Heaven and earth are Brothers maybe twins like Esau and Jacob. Heaven is first and Senior Genesis 1:1

Heaven means spirit world where your soul (the star) lives. Hence "let your light so shine".

And earth means this physical world and it's skin which you know too much and even fatally more than your heaven living self.

And the correct order is that heaven leads earth hence the prayer of 'As it is heaven"!

But Satan has deceived men such that it is the earth man (flesh) that is controlling the heavenly man.

And the earth man has therefore corrupted and dirtied the heavenly man star, hence "Proverbs 8:36: But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death".

So if earth is very very dirty it means that heaven is like Aba dump site.

And you know God does not tolerate dirt.

And even among we sinners, what do we do with lands and gardens that have turned to dustbins?

WE BURN THEM ALL!

This reply have absolutely no relationship with my question.

You claimed the ” falling stars ” recorded in the Bible are earthly stars (famous people)
I gave verses that doesn't suggest those stars are earthly stars, but clearly heavenly bodies.

I want you to explain to me how those stars in those Bible verses are earthly stars...And if they're heavenly bodies, explain to me the possibilities of such given the smallest of stars are x bigger than the earth.

Offpoint1:

This reply have absolutely no relationship with my question.

You claimed the ” falling stars ” recorded in the Bible are earthly stars (famous people)

I gave verses that doesn't suggest those stars are earthly stars, but clearly heavenly bodies.

I want you to explain to me how those stars in those Bible verses are earthly stars...And if they're heavenly bodies, explain to me the possibilities of such given the smallest of stars are x bigger than the earth.

I said "star" means "light or shinning"! I said nothing about famous people.

Your soul is and was made a star until you "put out its light" by sinning.

Your soul lives in heaven and controls earth.

I said heaven and earth are twins and therefore what happens in one of them must happen in the other.

And since they were created together they must be destroyed together.

The Bible was not referring to those things that we call "diamonds in the sky" or the bally things some people claim to see with their binoculars.

Dtruthspeaker:


I said "star" means "light or shinning"! I said nothing about famous people.

Your soul is and was made a star until you "put out its light" by sinning.

Your soul lives in heaven and controls earth.

I said heaven and earth are twins and therefore what happens in one of them must happen in the other.

And since they were created together they must be destroyed together.

The Bible was not referring to those things that we call "diamonds in the sky" or the bally things some people claim to see with their binoculars.

Lol
You want to deny your own words?

Offpoint1:

Lol
You want to deny your own words?

Everyone knows that saying "exactly like" is used for explaining and showing a phenomenon and it is crazy or it shows how greatly evil you are if you did not get it.

Dtruthspeaker:


Everyone knows that saying "exactly like" is used for explaining and showing a phenomenon and it is crazy or it shows how greatly evil you are if you did not get it.

I am leaving you, it's obvious you don't have an answer to my questions and you've begin to resort into insults.

Good day

Offpoint1:

I am leaving you, it's obvious you don't have an answer to my questions and you've begin to resort into insults.

Good day

I have answered you but it is obvious that you have put away the natural use of what we call figures is speech (simile and imagery) just so that you can concentrate only on the literal translation.

So it is you who is being unreasonable here.

Ken4Christ:


There are two comings of the Lord. The first is during the rapture when he comes to take faithful saints home. The second is when he comes to fight the anti Christ and establish his Millennium Reign on earth.

The rapture can take place any moment from now. We are living in borrowed time.

But his second coming will take place after the events you wrote about.

Where in the Bible is two comings mentioned?? Because according to Angels, Apostles and the Lord Jesus himself, he's coming back just once! I.e the second coming.

So where are two comings from?

MrDebonair:


I understand you clearly. Rapture of the church is before tribulation. Being "caught up" in the air...Greek/ Hebrew translation is rapture from "Harpazo". Latin ....Rapturo. That's where rapture word is being coined from.
1 thessalonians 4
Matthew 24.
Mark 13.
Luke 21.
Explains it all in details.

Pre-tribulation ................Tribulation...........Great Tribulation..........Post tribulation.
Rapture...............................1260 days .............1260 days ..................Jesus second coming(1000 yrs reign)
Meet Jesus in the cloud...<<<<<<<<<<< 7 years>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus touch down at Mount Olive

The church will not partake in the wrath of God during tribulation/ great tribulation.

Rapture and Jesus second coming are two different events and not to be confused.

If you are saying rapture is after great tribulation then what you are saying is that the bridegroom attacks his bride, inflicts terror on her and then comes back to take her to dinner afterwards.

Just saying.

Pre tribulation rapture is a wrong doctrine.

After the Bridegroom came, the ready Virgins entered with him, and thr door was shut. No chance for repentance or being wise again.

Remember only the blood of Jesus can save. MAN'S BLOOD CANNOT SAVE MAN.

Why do you think the Angels specifically warned??

"Anyone who receives the mark of the beast"

Believers will face the antichrist, but will not go through God's wrath and judgement on the antichrist and those who receive the mark!

If Jesus and the apostles of Old passed through persecution, who the hell do new generations Christians that can't even stand for God think they are , that they will just escape without standing for Jesus Christ through Persecution?

[quote author=Jokerman post=116682280]

Pre tribulation rapture is a wrong doctrine.