Brother Aemmyjay, this is one of the many insanes in the forum please ignore him with his madness!

Maynman:

Why not creators? And what created the creators?
The question can keep going on and on, why limit the questions?

MaxInDHouse:
Brother Aemmyjay, this is one of the many insanes in the forum please ignore him with his madness!

See the lunatic polytheists that’s talking.

Maynman:

See the lunatic polytheists that’s talking.

This one nah my own BROTHER go and find yours in the traditional religion you choose!

MaxInDHouse:


This one nah my own BROTHER go and find yours in the traditional religion you choose!

Okay lunatic polytheist.

Aemmyjah:

I'm waiting, pls blow my mind.
But note that nothing will make sense about life unless we understand its purpose, ignorance of that will lead to all forms of frustration. Living life without knowing why we are here, where we come from, where we are going and how to live it will make it meaningless, purposeless and unsatisfying. So present your fact and blow my mind. I'm a very open-minded person

life has no meaning ... What ever meaning you percieve is prescribed by the mind of man. Fire has no meaning it just is... Water has no meaning, yet it just. Is .

Franzinni:
life has no meaning ... What ever meaning you percieve is prescribed by the mind of man. Fire has no meaning it just is... Water has no meaning, yet it just. Is .

Hmm, abi
Just like the sun has no meaning, the moon has no purpose, the human brain, eyes, legs, has no purpose, including things like chairs, phones, computers and airplanes. I like that mentality of yours bro. Keep it up. All these just appeared by themselves na.

Aemmyjah:

Hmm, abi
Just like the sun has no meaning, the moon has no purpose, the human brain, eyes, legs, has no purpose, including things like chairs, phones, computers and airplanes. I like that mentality of yours bro. Keep it up. All these just appeared by themselves na.

You will have reasons to laugh but you just have to manage not to annoy them because most of them are speaking from their hearts! Luke 6:45

MaxInDHouse:


You will have reasons to laugh but you just have to manage not to annoy them because most of them are speaking from their hearts! Luke 6:45

Forgive me, you're true sir.
He claims to love God, he says the earth is living and the universe is expanding and these claims contrast creation, he says he's about to shock me and now he compares life with water and fire. I though he'll mention air and oxygen. When someone says water has no meaning...

Thanks brother

Aemmyjah:

Hmm, abi
Just like the sun has no meaning, the moon has no purpose, the human brain, eyes, legs, has no purpose, including things like chairs, phones, computers and airplanes. I like that mentality of yours bro. Keep it up. All these just appeared by themselves na.

if you saw a chair without any body telling you what it's for ... You won't see meaning but as soon as some one shows you the porpose... You instantly find meaning. Every meaning you know is taught to you ... The sun is. What ever benefits from it's presence, benefits. ... But the sun was not made for the benefit of the benefactor

Franzinni:
if you saw a chair without any body telling you what it's for ... You won't see meaning but as soon as some one shows you the porpose... You instantly find meaning. Every meaning you know is taught to you ... The sun is. What ever benefits from it's presence, benefits. ... But the sun was not made for the benefit of the benefactor

You don't make half sense with what you just said. The sun was there long before we appeared on earth. Does that make the sun purposeless? If you take a phone to a village and know what knows what it is or how to use it, does that make the phone meaningless. Science has still discovering the purpose of many things in the natural world which they previously used to think had no purpose
Do you need to tell a child that his eyes are for sight before it makes sense to him that the eyes have a purpose. You need to learn how to present sound argument

Aemmyjah:


You don't make half sense with what you just said. The sun was there long before we appeared on earth. Does that make the sun purposeless? If you take a phone to a village and know what knows what it is or how to use it, does that make the phone meaningless. Science has still discovering the purpose of many things in the natural world which they previously used to think had no purpose
Do you need to tell a child that his eyes are for sight before it makes sense to him that the eyes have a purpose. You need to learn how to present sound argument

ok

Franzinni:
if you saw a chair without any body telling you what it's for ... You won't see meaning but as soon as some one shows you the porpose... You instantly find meaning. Every meaning you know is taught to you ... The sun is. What ever benefits from it's presence, benefits. ... But the sun was not made for the benefit of the benefactor

Says you!

Alright... I'll need to put on my special atheist gloves for this one.

I'll be cutting some of these short because I don't want readers to have to go through a large block of text before seeing the rebuttals. But i assure you nonetheless I've read through everything and will try to respond accordingly.

Also, arguing for the existence of “A creator" is relatively easy. Moving the discussion to something about a specific religious deity as the creator, is another thing entirely. And after going through this post, you seem to be doing the latter.

Anyways, Let's begin

Aemmyjah:


1. What is made has a Maker: You will surely agree with that. Everything small of great we use around us- needles, phones, chairs, vehicles all have a maker. Imagine walking through a Forest and seeing a coin or a toothpick, logically you know that someone must have dropped it there.

This proves next to nothing. Sure, everything that begins to exist, or as you put it, everything that is made has a maker. True. But it doesn't tell us anything.

You gave the example of the nice limousine. Sure, no one would dispute it had a maker. But no one argues that it had just one maker either. Tons of people worked together to being it into existence.

The best you can say from observation of the universe, is that it had a cause. Probably a conscious one. But that's about it.

2. Law and Lawgiver: Let me ask a question. Have you ever come across traffic signs and asked yourself 'Who is responsible for all these traffic laws?' Likely, you have never met such ones but intelligent minds are behind those laws and you will agree with me that where there is a mind, there's a personality, we can't have a mind and not have a personality.

The laws of physics also don't prove anything significant, except of course that they could've been caused by something. The argument I gave for the first point pretty much applied here as well.

3. Intelligence: We all have reasoning faculties. If my brain (the seat of intelligence) has no designer, I can trust it when making decisions but imperfections can make me make the wrong decision.

This hardly makes any sense. Your argument fails horribly when you consider that other animals were made by the same creator.

Would you trust a rat's reasoning faculty? What about a donkey's? Now do you see why your argument fails?

Let me ask athiests this question, you may do well to ask them too as they don't believe in a Creator God. If man arose without intelligent guidance, why should he have intelligence? Can unintelligence create intelligence?

This question has to do more with what intelligence means and less with the existence of a God.

4. Conscience: There are things we hate, condemn and won't tolerate. Mass murder, genocide, terrorism, incest, rape, injustice, etc.

All old testament nostalgia

Did these things simply evolve? Atheist themselves hate these things and condemn such ones as ungodly. If we truly evolve, why condemn these attitudes whereas they are displaying animalistic attitudes and they say we evolve from them and survival of the fittest which promotes greed, violence and selfishness.

Once again, try to understand survival of the fittest before making false claims about it. Secondly, all these are ralated to “consciousness".. a subject we have very little understanding about.. and a subject which theists, who claim to understand it, have failed to prove.

6. Religion: Religion is as old as man and we have have tens of thousands of religion.

And this proves what exactly??

Whether you're a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or even an atheist, you're still a religious person having holding onto some strong principles and views. People have worshipped God and gods and humans and animals and non existent things. In the name of religion, people have killed and willing to die.
Why is that? Religion satisfies our spiritual need just as food satisfies our material need.

The fact that you can ask such a valid question and answer it in one of the least logical ways possible baffles me. If you have any idea how vastly religious ideas (as well as the cultures they originated from) vary, you'd understand why the answer you gave here literally makes no sense.

Also, I skipped the bible one because you've failed to prove the existence of a single creator, let alone the one portrayed in the bible.

Also, it uses a lot of circular, and quite frankly irrelevant arguments to prove a book to be “the word of God".. a phrase in itself that hardly makes any logocal sense either.

So far so good, atheists seem to be having upper hand cos they say that the mainstream Christian can't prove the reality of what they believe. I am Emmanuel and one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Ah... It makes a lot of sense now.

Here, our beliefs are reality and we don't accept anything blindly even if it is the existence of a Creator

I highly doubt that.

Wilgrea7:
Alright... I'll need to put on my special atheist gloves for this one.

I'll be cutting some of these short because I don't want readers to have to go through a large block of text before seeing the rebuttals. But i assure you nonetheless I've read through everything and will try to respond accordingly.

Also, arguing for the existence of “A creator" is relatively easy. Moving the discussion to something about a specific religious deity as the creator, is another thing entirely. And after going through this post, you seem to be doing the latter.

Anyways, Let's begin



This proves next to nothing. Sure, everything that begins to exist, or as you put it, everything that is made has a maker. True. But it doesn't tell us anything.

In this world, we've not even started learning anything about nature

You gave the example of the nice limousine. Sure, no one would dispute it had a maker right? But no one argues that it had just one maker either. Tons of people worked together to being it into existence.

Whether a maker or several makers, at least a limousine won't make itself. Intelligence is required in making it so does the cell, the universe, your brain except you'll tell me your brain is not a design but made by accident

The best you can say from observation of the universe, is that it had a cause. Probably a conscious one. But that's about it.

What course could that be? An intelligent designer or by accident?

The laws of physics also don't prove anything significant, except of course that they could've been caused by something. The argument I gave for the first point pretty much applied here as well.

Your point here is pointless. I was alluding to humans laws like the ones that guide traffic and natural laws that guide nature like laws of gravity. You failed to mention which physical laws you are referring to

This hardly makes any sense. Your argument fails horribly when you consider that other animals were made by the same creator.

Would you trust a rat's reasoning faculty? What about a donkey's? Now do you see why your argument fails?

Again, your point is pointless. Humans are far different from animals as they have morals rather than animals that act based on instincts. Humans tend to find a meaning in life too. God did not make us all the same. The Bible says he made man in his image to reflect his qualities like love, compassion, wisdom and justice and in need of true guidance to wellbeing. Animals too were created for a purpose. I can invent varieties of things anyway I wish. I still remain the Maker

This question has to do more with what intelligence means and less with the existence of a God.

Can you then explain why man has intelligence if it could not have come from an intelligent being? Only a fool will say that the seat of intelligence came by chance. Man cannot even create robots to be half intelligent as he is but man believe his intelligence came on its own. If you see a doll that could speak and act like human, what does that tell you about the kind of Maker?

All old testament nostalgia



Once again, try to understand survival of the fittest before making false claims about it. Secondly, all these are ralated to “consciousness".. a subject we have very little understanding about.. and a subject which theists, who claim to understand it, have failed to prove.

That theory encourages selfishness if you look at it critically. Why then do we feel sorry and want to alleviate the suffering and injustice of others. They studied animals to cook up a stupid theory

And this proves what exactly??



The fact that you can ask such a valid question and answer it in one of the least logical ways possible baffles me. If you have any idea how vastly religious ideas (as well as the cultures they originated from) vary, you'd understand why the answer you gave here literally makes no sense.

Also, I skipped the bible one because you've failed to prove the existence of a single creator, let alone the one portrayed in the bible.

Also, it uses a lot of circular, and quite frankly irrelevant arguments to prove a book to be “the word of God".. a phrase in itself that hardly makes any logocal sense either.




Ah... It makes a lot of sense now.



I highly doubt that.

So this is all you have to say with all your gloves. You're like a boxer with runny stomach trying to engage into a fight. I won't fight you, just go and convince yourself better. You did not shock me or cause me to blink an eye. You're talking nonsense

Aemmyjah:


Whether a maker or several makers, at least a limousine won't make itself. Intelligence is required in making it so does the cell, the universe, your brain except you'll tell me your brain is not a design but made by accident

If you're trying to imply that atheists believe the world came about by chance, then you're pulling an obvious strawman.

I've called you out on this your false dichotomy before, and here you are pushing it again.

If a particular atheist says things came about by chance, that's his own view. Atheism is not a religion with a set of beliefs. I've never for once on this platform claimed the universe was created by chance. So your strawman here fails.

What course could that be? An intelligent designer or by accident?

Refer to point above.

Your point here is pointless. I was alluding to humans laws like the ones that guide traffic and natural laws that guide nature like laws of gravity. You failed to mention which physical laws you are referring to

The specific laws I'm referring to doesn't matter here. I was referring to all the laws of nature. Things like strength of the nuclear force, gravity, the strong and weak force, and so on.

Again, your point is pointless. Humans are far different from animals as they have morals rather than animals that act based on instincts. Humans tend to find a meaning in life too. God did not make us all the same. The Bible says he made man in his image to reflect his qualities like love, compassion, wisdom and justice and in need of true guidance to wellbeing. Animals too were created for a purpose. I can invent varieties of things anyway I wish. I still remain the Maker

This is clearly besides the point and you know it. You made the claim that our reasoning faculties should be trusted by virtue of being made by a creator.

All i did was to show you that being made by a creator, in and of itself, is not the reason we trust our thinking faculties, for which I gave animals as an example, since they fit the criteria you gave earlier.

And secondly, you're still trying to push the false dichotomy of “your specific creator" vs “chance" here.

Can you then explain why man has intelligence if it could not have come from an intelligent being? Only a fool will say that the seat of intelligence came by chance. Man cannot even create robots to be half intelligent as he is but man believe his intelligence came on its own. If you see a doll that could speak and act like human, what does that tell you about the kind of Maker?

Firstly, false dichotomy, and an obvious strawman. Don't put words into my mouth. I never said intelligence came about by chance.

Secondly, the source of intelligence, is consciousness, which is still largely unknown to us as I've said before.

No one is trying to deny the possible involvement of a creator in the process. We're only asking you to prove it.

"God" is not, and should not be a substitute for "I don't know"

That theory encourages selfishness if you look at it critically. Why then do we feel sorry and want to alleviate the suffering and injustice of others. They studied animals to cook up a stupid theory

Once again, if you don't understand something, try to learn rather than making up false claims. I've given you an example of survival of the fittest in the past, and here you are spewing the same rhetoric again.

Survival of the fittest does not necessitate selfishness. I gave you the plant as an example. What selfish behavior would a plant be portraying by growing a thicker skin to reduce evaporation? At least try to make it seem like you researched something.

Throughout human history, people who worked in groups or as part of a team had the highest chances of seeing the next day. For God's sake, we have paintings of people working together to take down lions and mammoths.

Historically speaking, our survival has always been tied down to cooperation, not selfishness. Your point fails here again.

Wilgrea7:

If a particular atheist says things came about by chance, that's his own view. Atheism is not a religion with a set of beliefs.

So whatever you say simply means you own PERSONAL opinion hence each and everyone else has a right to their own, therefore if some choose to have the same line of thought about how life came about they are not obligated to your quest regarding the origin of life!

MaxInDHouse:


So whatever you say simply means you own PERSONAL opinion hence each and everyone else has a right to their own, therefore if some choose to have the same line of thought about how life came about they are not obligated to your quest regarding the origin of life!

There's a big difference between personal opinion and fact. It is not my opinion that the earth revolves around the sun, or there are other planets in our solar system. That is fact.

What differentiates a claim, from a fact, is the availability of evidence. I've said this countless times here and it's honestly tiring to keep repeating it.

Wilgrea7:


There's a big difference between personal opinion and fact. It is not my opinion that the earth revolves around the sun, or there are other planets in our solar system. That is fact.

What differentiates a claim, from a fact, is the availability of evidence. I've said this countless times here and it's honestly tiring to keep repeating it.

The fact here is that some highly intelligent being planned all these things that's why it's working perfectly as planned so when someone claims there is an intelligent mind behind the perfect set up whoever dispute it is LYING to his own soul!

Wilgrea7:


If you're trying to imply that atheists believe the world came about by chance, then you're pulling an obvious strawman.

I've called you out on this your false dichotomy before, and here you are pushing it again.

If a particular atheist says things came about by chance, that's his own view. Atheism is not a religion with a set of beliefs. I've never for once on this platform claimed the universe was created by chance. So your strawman here fails.



Refer to point above.



The specific laws I'm referring to doesn't matter here. I was referring to all the laws of nature. Things like strength of the nuclear force, gravity, the strong and weak force, and so on.



This is clearly besides the point and you know it. You made the claim that our reasoning faculties should be trusted by virtue of being made by a creator.

All i did was to show you that being made by a creator, in and of itself, is not the reason we trust our thinking faculties, for which I gave animals as an example, since they fit the criteria you gave earlier.

And secondly, you're still trying to push the false dichotomy of “your specific creator" vs “chance" here.



Firstly, false dichotomy, and an obvious strawman. Don't put words into my mouth. I never said intelligence came about by chance.

Secondly, the source of intelligence, is consciousness, which is still largely unknown to us as I've said before.

No one is trying to deny the possible involvement of a creator in the process. We're only asking you to prove it.

"God" is not, and should not be a substitute for "I don't know"



Once again, if you don't understand something, try to learn rather than making up false claims. I've given you an example of survival of the fittest in the past, and here you are spewing the same rhetoric again.

Survival of the fittest does not necessitate selfishness. I gave you the plant as an example. What selfish behavior would a plant be portraying by growing a thicker skin to reduce evaporation? At least try to make it seem like you researched something.

Throughout human history, people who worked in groups or as part of a team had the highest chances of seeing the next day. For God's sake, we have paintings of people working together to take down lions and mammoths.

Historically speaking, our survival has always been tied down to cooperation, not selfishness. Your point fails here again.

Ridiculous, keep hiding. If the universe does not come by chance, it came by what or from who?
Your last comments are actually false

Theists hail brahma