•_•

MrMxyptlk:
Truth is Christianity will always be tyrannical to me. Cause, it's not about being a good person, its the fact that, even while being good(or tryna be), you can't make the pearly gates unless you belief in a particular existence of which sadly, there's no solid proof.

Basically, christianity says, you've never hurt anyone but you dont believe Jesus is the way so you'll still suffer, but he's killed lots, sent lots to hell, put families in depressive states but he makes heaven cause he says "God, forgive me".

The concept of inherited sin(Adam's sin sucks more). Let's simplify this(Christians reading this are already saying you can't simplify the things of God, but oh well, I'll proceed eitherways). I'll use my life as an example, My mom is a teacher. When I was in grade 2, my class teacher then had a daughter who was in Grade 5. My mom was her daughter's Math teacher and she was mad at my mom cause my mom refused to alter her daughter's grades to make them much better. She, in her annoyance took it out on me and my grades. On first listen and even subsequent listen, everyone will say "Na, that was wrong". But that exactly is what God is doing to us all. I never "chose" to eat any forbidden fruit but here I am, suffering from someone else's decision to sin.

Again, Christians say their God is omniscient. "He knew us and all about us before we were formed in our mother's womb". That I'll like to expand further to say, he knew how we'll end our lives too. Then why create someone being 100% certain that he/she would end up in hell? And if he doesn't know how we'll end up, is he really Omniscient?

If my child steals a piece of meat from the pot and I decide to kill that child, y'all will definitely say "Fam, that's an overkill". But I live in sin(probably not even harming others, just ignorant about christ), then I die and burn "FOREVER". Honestly, that's unfair.

"Jacob I loved, Esau I hate"
"All are called, few are CHOSEN"
"I'll have mercy on whom I chose to have mercy on"
This is someone who loves us all equally?

Keep thinking like this, and you'll end up an atheist. Be careful

jaephoenix:

Keep thinking like this, and you'll end up an atheist. Be careful

This guy speaking the truth
To be honest
The purpose of religion basically for selfish interest
Just do good
I hate it when pastors preach about vanity
Like it's not the same vanity that's make you preaching lmao
We underestimate the power of money alot
God is Good
Everything he did was perfect
But they changed the narrative
We're not even leaving the Life he has choosen for us
Religious bigot all over the place

Op is proof that religion feeds the minds of the gullible and ignorant, and not just those who subscribe to it, mind you.

MrMxyptlk:
■ Truth is Christianity will always be tyrannical to me. Cause, it's not about being a good person, it's the fact that, even while being good(or tryna be), you can't make the pearly gates unless you belief in a particular existence of which sadly, there's no solid proof.
■ Basically, christianity says, you've never hurt anyone but you dont believe Jesus is the way so you'll still suffer, but he's killed lots, sent lots to hell, put families in depressive states but he makes heaven cause he says "God, forgive me".
■ The concept of inherited sin(Adam's sin sucks more). Let's simplify this(Christians reading this are already saying you can't simplify the things of God, but oh well, I'll proceed eitherways). I'll use my life as an example, My mom is a teacher. When I was in grade 2, my class teacher then had a daughter who was in Grade 5. My mom was her daughter's Math teacher and she was mad at my mom cause my mom refused to alter her daughter's grades to make them much better. She, in her annoyance took it out on me and my grades. On first listen and even subsequent listen, everyone will say "Na, that was wrong". But that exactly is what God is doing to us all. I never "chose" to eat any forbidden fruit but here I am, suffering from someone else's decision to sin.
■ Again, Christians say their God is omniscient. "He knew us and all about us before we were formed in our mother's womb". That I'll like to expand further to say, he knew how we'll end our lives too. Then why create someone being 100% certain that he/she would end up in hell? And if he doesn't know how we'll end up, is he really Omniscient?
■ If my child steals a piece of meat from the pot and I decide to kill that child, y'all will definitely say "Fam, that's an overkill". But I live in sin(probably not even harming others, just ignorant about christ), then I die and burn "FOREVER". Honestly, that's unfair.
■ "Jacob I loved, Esau I hate" "All are called, few are CHOSEN" "I'll have mercy on whom I chose to have mercy on" This is someone who loves us all equally?

1. Religion is responsible for you believing that goodness, as weighed by the standard that is your conscience or the doctrines and traditions of your pastors and mogs, are able to get you into God's special Kingdom of Priests - Exodus 19 vs 6 - and eventually into God's own Heaven. Religion lied to you!

2. Jesus Christ did nothing of the sort you accuse Him of. He did not send anyone to go out killing or maiming using His name. Again, Religion lied to you!

3. There is no such thing as inherited sin particularly since God Himself made it clear that the one who sins will die/pay for his sins - Ezekiel 18 vs 1 - 32. Your suffering is a result of the decision made by your parents to have you. Your parents, after realizing the suffering that is the world, still felt it wise to have you. That decision was made by them and not by God. Again, Religion lied to you!

4. Again, God washed His hands off the process of procreation from Genesis 3 vs 16. The reason you exist is not because of God but because your parents chose to bring you into this world. God may have known you even before the womb, but it was your parents who decided to have you. Not God. Again, Religion lied to you!

5. According to scripture, all those who will end up in eternal damnation will all be born-agains and will end up there because they refused to obey God's Law in the Kingdom of God. Hellfire is a choice that those who will end up there make for themselves. That you don't even realize that up to this point means you don't even know much about God or the Kingdom of God. Again, Religion has lied to you!

6. God never said He loves all equally. He instead made it abundantly clear that His love in Jesus Christ is only available to those who live their lives in submission to and obedience to His Law - John 15 vs 9 -11. So the lie that God loves you all equally has absolutely nothing to do with that which is written in scripture. Even those verses/soundbites you conveniently lifted out of context there to assert what is of no substance, do not say any of what you claim. Again, Religion has lied to you!

Stop allowing men to fill your head with lies that keep you ignorant of what is right in front of you. Pick up the book and read it for yourself abeg!

Just say it as it is OP. Those are the definitions of a partial god.

jaephoenix:

Keep thinking like this, and you'll end up an atheist. Be careful

So this is what you were able to pick out from all that he said? Woooow, that's sad.

MrMxyptlk:
Truth is Christianity will always be tyrannical to me. Cause, it's not about being a good person, its the fact that, even while being good(or tryna be), you can't make the pearly gates unless you belief in a particular existence of which sadly, there's no solid proof. Basically, christianity says, you've never hurt anyone....

You already do not want to believe in God yet you are concerned about "pearly gates", aren't you mad already? And clearly this just proves how you have never been a Christian

And since you have never been a Christian, then, you really do not know what it means to be a Christian.

So in the end you are just here to exhaust your frustration at life and ditto God who you wish not to believe, Cursed the earth, so you are just confirming that indeed He exists for now you agree that you are cursed.

Dtruthspeaker:


You already do not want to believe in God yet you are concerned about "pearly gates", aren't you mad already? And clearly this just proves how you have never been a Christian

And since you have never been a Christian, then, you really do not know what it means to be a Christian.

So in the end you are just here to exhaust your frustration at life and ditto God who you wish not to believe, Cursed the earth, so you are just confirming that indeed He exists for now you agree that you are cursed.

Bigot's like you are insufferable. Out of all the contributions here, your's makes me feel queasy. Get a life or go lock yourself up in one of your churches somewhere🤢

Lasgidi90:
Just say it as it is OP. Those are the definitions of a partial god.

From the mouths of fools who do not know that they are fools.

MrMxyptlk:


Bigot's like you are insufferable. Out of all the contributions here, your's makes me feel queasy. Get a life or go lock yourself up in one of your churches somewhere🤢

Says a suffering complaining miserable bigot who is attacking God yet is complaining about being attacked. My life is sweet, yours is horrible and it
still won't get better even if you go into crime.

So, go and leave your miserable life without God in it, and you are truly stupid to thing that your suffering or joy affects God.

For clearly God Said "He will only judge you for the things you yourself did" and not what Adam did.

And ordinary common sense would have told you that the idea of inherited sin means the inherited ability to sin. Nothing more, nothing less.

No where did you see God punishing a person because of what Adam did. It's as clear as that but yet your bigotted mind did not get it.

Dtruthspeaker:


Says a suffering complaining miserable bigot who is attacking God yet is complaining about being attacked. My life is sweet, yours is horrible and it
still won't get better even if you go into crime.

So, go and leave your miserable life without God in it, and you are truly stupid to thing that your suffering or joy affects God.

For clearly God Said "He will only judge you for the things you yourself did" and not what Adam did.

And ordinary common sense would have told you that the idea of inherited sin means the inherited ability to sin. Nothing more, nothing less.

No where did you see God punishing a person because of what Adam did. It's as clear as that but yet your bigotted mind did not get it.

Another Christian stereotype I hate😂😂.
So you think because I created a topic to listen to people's opinion and used a catchy title, I'm suffering?

LMAO, let me Continue playing my Elden Ring on my Steam Deck while using starlink network.

Cry today, cry tomorrow. My life's probably 10x better than yours.

MrMxyptlk:


Another Christian stereotype I hate😂😂.
So you think because I created a topic to listen to people's opinion and used a catchy title, I'm suffering?

LMAO, let me Continue playing my Elden Ring on my Steam Deck while using starlink network.

Cry today, cry tomorrow. My life's probably 10x better than yours.

You think you are receiving anyone? Even the rat in your house just shouted 'hey, you can lie?"

Let me quickly say this! Anyone practicing religion or he does not practice religion and he hates another fellow man, then he is not doing truthfully

MrMxyptlk:

Basically, christianity says, you've never hurt anyone but you dont believe Jesus is the way so you'll still suffer

no!
Christianity says if you don't believe in Jesus you will die, not that you will suffer.

There many people who believes in Christ that are suffering. Suffering isn't a function of your religious or non religious inclination

, but he's killed lots,

you can't question him for killing, that's why he is God.
As he choses to create at will, so he choses to kill at will.
It's like a man who chose to construct his house at will, then at some point he decides to destroy the house at will. Who will question him?
His property is his property, he can choose to do it anyhow he want because he is superior to the property, there is nothing like justice or injustice here.

but he makes heaven cause he says "God, forgive me".

it's human character to forgive too when people says please forgive me, so?

The concept of inherited sin(Adam's sin sucks more). Let's simplify this(Christians reading this are already saying you can't simplify the things of God, but oh well, I'll proceed eitherways). I'll use my life as an example, My mom is a teacher. When I was in grade 2, my class teacher then had a daughter who was in Grade 5. My mom was her daughter's Math teacher and she was mad at my mom cause my mom refused to alter her daughter's grades to make them much better. She, in her annoyance took it out on me and my grades. On first listen and even subsequent listen, everyone will say "Na, that was wrong". But that exactly is what God is doing to us all.

no!
You are very wrong, that is not what God is doing.
Understand the concept of inherited sin from Adam and Eve, it is like nature!
You deplete the ozone layer in one region, other people suffers the effect in another region.
You refuse to send your 5 years old child to school today, she suffers the consequences in the future. She wasn't the one that decides not to send herself to school when she was 5 years old.
Now, that isn't God's fault that she is suffering the consequences.

In this world, we cannot live a isolated life, we need each other.
So, is the illustration you gave about your mum and your teacher who chooses put it on your grades

I never "chose" to eat any forbidden fruit but here I am, suffering from someone else's decision to sin.

the question you should ask is, what is your role in the life?
Your role is to bring solution to problems!
They eat forbidden fruits and brought death, then you should follow Christ who brings life, that's the only solution. Romans 5:12

Again, Christians say their God is omniscient. "He knew us and all about us before we were formed in our mother's womb". That I'll like to expand further to say, he knew how we'll end our lives too. Then why create someone being 100% certain that he/she would end up in hell? And if he doesn't know how we'll end up, is he really Omniscient?

a farmer who sow his seeds in an open field don't he knows that while men slept, it is possible an enemy will come and sow bad seeds along with his good seeds in the same field ? Matthew 13:24

Ofcourse he knows!
But he expect you to use your brain and bring solution

If my child steals a piece of meat from the pot and I decide to kill that child, y'all will definitely say "Fam, that's an overkill". But I live in sin(probably not even harming others, just ignorant about christ), then I die and burn "FOREVER". Honestly, that's unfair.

what is unfair is you deliberately refusing to look up to Christ for your salvation.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Just say the word that's all

"Jacob I loved, Esau I hate"

if Jacob was faithful and Esau wasn't what do you expect, that he will love both equally?

If you have two children, one is doing well and the other is not, to be sincere to yourself will you love them equally?

Hence, all are called few are chosen

"All are called, few are CHOSEN"

yes

"I'll have mercy on whom I chose to have mercy on"
This is someone who loves us all equally?

you have to realize that life is not a straight line graph.
But you must plot your way to the right course, God will not do that for you because you have your free will

Dtruthspeaker:


You think you are receiving anyone? Even the rat in your house just shouted 'hey, you can lie?"

Dey play😂😂

paxonel:
Let me quickly say this! Anyone practicing religion or he does not practice religion and he hates another fellow man, then he is not doing truthfully no!
Christianity says if you don't believe in Jesus you will die, not that you will suffer.

There many people who believes in Christ that are suffering. Suffering isn't a function of your religious or non religious inclination
you can't question him for killing, that's why he is God.
As he choses to create at will, so he choses to kill at will.
It's like a man who chose to construct his house at will, then at some point he decides to destroy the house at will. Who will question him?
His property is his property, he can choose to do it anyhow he want because he is superior to the property, there is nothing like justice or injustice here.
it's human character to forgive too when people says please forgive me, so?
no!
You are very wrong, that is not what God is doing.
Understand the concept of inherited sin from Adam and Eve, it is like nature!
You deplete the ozone layer in one religion, other people suffers the effect in another religion.
You refuse to send your 5 years old child to school today, she suffers the consequences in the future. She wasn't the one that decides not to send herself to school when she was 5 years old.
Now, that isn't God's fault that she is suffering the consequences.

In this world, we cannot live a isolated life, we need each other.
So, is the illustration you gave about your mum and your teacher who chooses put it on your grades
the question you should ask is, what is your role in the life?
Your role is to bring solution to problems!
They eat forbidden fruits and brought death, then you should follow Christ who brings life, that's the only solution. Romans 5:12
a farmer who sow his seeds in an open field don't he knows that while men slept, it is possible an enemy will come and sow bad seeds along with his good seeds in the same field ? Matthew 13:24

Ofcourse he knows!
But he expect you to use your brain and bring solution
what is unfair is you deliberately refusing to look up to Christ for your salvation.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Just say the word that's all
if Jacob was faithful and Esau wasn't what do you expect, that he will love both equally?

If you have two children, one is doing well and the other is not, to be sincere to yourself will you love them equally?

Hence, all are called few are chosen
yes
you have to realize that life is not a straight line graph.
But you must plot your way to the right course, God will not do that for you because you have your free will

Thanks for sharing.

MrMxyptlk:
Truth is Christianity will always be tyrannical to me. Cause, it's not about being a good person, its the fact that, even while being good(or tryna be), you can't make the pearly gates unless you belief in a particular existence of which sadly, there's no solid proof.

Basically, christianity says, you've never hurt anyone but you dont believe Jesus is the way so you'll still suffer, but he's killed lots, sent lots to hell, put families in depressive states but he makes heaven cause he says "God, forgive me".

The concept of inherited sin(Adam's sin sucks more). Let's simplify this(Christians reading this are already saying you can't simplify the things of God, but oh well, I'll proceed eitherways). I'll use my life as an example, My mom is a teacher. When I was in grade 2, my class teacher then had a daughter who was in Grade 5. My mom was her daughter's Math teacher and she was mad at my mom cause my mom refused to alter her daughter's grades to make them much better. She, in her annoyance took it out on me and my grades. On first listen and even subsequent listen, everyone will say "Na, that was wrong". But that exactly is what God is doing to us all. I never "chose" to eat any forbidden fruit but here I am, suffering from someone else's decision to sin.

Again, Christians say their God is omniscient. "He knew us and all about us before we were formed in our mother's womb". That I'll like to expand further to say, he knew how we'll end our lives too. Then why create someone being 100% certain that he/she would end up in hell? And if he doesn't know how we'll end up, is he really Omniscient?

If my child steals a piece of meat from the pot and I decide to kill that child, y'all will definitely say "Fam, that's an overkill". But I live in sin(probably not even harming others, just ignorant about christ), then I die and burn "FOREVER". Honestly, that's unfair.

"Jacob I loved, Esau I hate"
"All are called, few are CHOSEN"
"I'll have mercy on whom I chose to have mercy on"
This is someone who loves us all equally?

Maybe you should ask one question at a time. We can learn everything in one single post.

paxonel:
Let me quickly say this! Anyone practicing religion or he does not practice religion and he hates another fellow man, then he is not doing truthfully no! l

In Christianity we hate evil and evil doers because we can not love what God hates
2 Chronicles 19:2. And God hates evil people Psalm 5:5

Only a devil and a fool will love an evil person.

No one even does it neither do they allows an evil person near their house not to talk of loving them, so you are a lying hypocrite when say by mouth that you love your fellow man and yet you do not let him come close to you nor your house for you know that he shall do you evil if you let him close.

tctrills:

Maybe you should ask one question at a time. We can learn everything in one single post.

My bad. Deep thinking got the better of me yesterday night. I actually know the answers, I just wanted to know what others think.

Dtruthspeaker:


In Christianity we hate evil and evil doers because we can not love what God hates
2 Chronicles 19:2. And God hates evil people Psalm 5:5

Only a devil and a fool will love an evil person.

No one even does it neither do they allows an evil person near their house not to talk of loving them, so you are a lying hypocrite when say by mouth that you love your fellow man and yet you do not let him come close to you nor your house for you know that he shall do you evil if you let him close.

scriptures didn't ask you to hate evil doers. Rather it ask you to hate evil.

paxonel:
scriptures didn't ask you to hate evil doers. Rather it ask you to hate evil.

2 Chronicles 19:2. Clearly says we can not love those who God hates!

Dtruthspeaker:


2 Chronicles 19:2. Clearly says we can not love those who God hates!

that was what Peter thought when he wanted to fight those who wanted toycapture Christ for his crucifixion. But Christ told him to shield his sword.

My guy, you are not boko haram, you are practicing Christianity.
If you go and hate someone and fights him simply because he hates God you are on your own

paxonel:
that was what Peter thought when he wanted to fight those who wanted capture Christ for his crucifixion. But Christ told him to shield his sword.

My guy, you are not boko haram, you are practicing Christianity.
If you you go and hate someone and fights him simply because he hates God you are on your own

Every reasonable person knows that that was not the time to fight, for The Lord was not fighting then.

But as Revelation shows, He is coming with His Own Sword and the time to fight has started.

Obviously the hymn "Onward Christian Soldiers" is a joke.

And as I said yet you refuse to take any devil to your house to give them meat and drink and bed, therefore you are an hypocrite.

I like your 'thinking out loud' op.

i would advise you to concentrate only on the teachings of Jesus.

Neither from the writings of Paul, nor from the old testament nor the eediots parading as authorities in religious\christ affairs all over Nairaland would you find answers but from direct encounter with master Jesus will all truths be revealed to you.

Dtruthspeaker:


2 Chronicles 19:2. Clearly says we can not love those who God hates!

How would you know who God hates?

MrMxyptlk:
Truth is Christianity will always be tyrannical to me. Cause, it's not about being a good person, its the fact that, even while being good(or tryna be), you can't make the pearly gates unless you belief in a particular existence of which sadly, there's no solid proof.

Basically, christianity says, you've never hurt anyone but you dont believe Jesus is the way so you'll still suffer, but he's killed lots, sent lots to hell, put families in depressive states but he makes heaven cause he says "God, forgive me".

Here's why I ask christians to read the entire bible for themselves.

The answer to your question is in Romans 2:14

Verse 14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

15- Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing them witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.


Here Paul is saying that there are gentiles who do not have the law(we can refer to them as non Christians today), but they do the things is the law.

They do not steal.

They do not commit adultery.

They do not bear false witness.

And all that. They are qualified for heaven.

Ask me why and how?

Verse 12 - For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

So Paul is saying that if you're not a Christian, you will be judged with your conscience.


If your works are good and you have not heard about Jesus, you qualify for heaven.


My church member told me like 7 years ago how she dreamt that her mum(a good Muslim) made heaven.

That one is even far, one happened 2 years ago, his mum died. And they found out (I think via dream) that she made heaven.


I've also heard of traditional religion worshippers that follow the law of their conscience, making heaven.


Please don't be decieved by the story that you need to believe in Jesus to make heaven.


The thief at the right hand of Jesus was not born again, yet made heaven.


The people that followed the baptism of John the Baptist also made heaven.


I find that atheism is due to insufficient information and we christians are also insufficiently informed.


On my Twitter page - RealBibleTopics we seek to discuss issues like this, please follow us.

joshuapharm:
Here's why I ask christians to read the entire bible for themselves. The answer to your question is in Romans 2:14 ...Here Paul is saying that there are gentiles who do not have the law(we can refer to them as non Christians today), but they do the things is the law.
They do not steal. They do not commit adultery.They do not bear false witness. And all that. They are qualified for heaven. Ask me why and how? Verse 12 - For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. So Paul is saying that if you're not a Christian, you will be judged with your conscience. If your works are good and you have not heard about Jesus, you qualify for heaven.

I am afraid all you have done here is twist the words of Paul in order to further what are private delusions abeg! To understand what Paul means, one first needs to be aware of Paul's audience which is made clear in verse one, the people of Israel.

1 Brothers and sisters, what I want most is for all the people of Israel to be saved. That is my prayer to God.
2 I can say this about them: They really try hard to follow God, but they don’t know the right way.
3 They did not know the way that God makes people right with him. And they tried to make themselves right in their own way. So they did not accept God’s way of making people right.
4 Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him is made right with God.
5 Moses writes about being made right by following the law. He says, “The person who obeys these laws is the one who will have life through them.”
6 But this is what the Scriptures say about being made right through faith: “Don’t say to yourself, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’” (This means “Who will go up to heaven to get Christ and bring him down to earth?”)
7 “And don’t say, ‘Who will go down into the world below?’” (This means “Who will go down to get Christ and bring him up from death?”)
8 This is what the Scripture says: “God’s teaching is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart.” It is the teaching of faith that we tell people.
9 If you openly say, “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from death, you will be saved.
10 Yes, we believe in Jesus deep in our hearts, and so we are made right with God. And we openly say that we believe in him, and so we are saved.
11 Yes, the Scriptures say, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disappointed.”
12 It says this because there is no difference between those who are Jews and those who are not. The same Lord is the Lord of all people. And he richly blesses everyone who looks to him for help.
13 Yes, “everyone who trusts in the Lord[d] will be saved.”
14 But before people can pray to the Lord for help, they must believe in him. And before they can believe in the Lord, they must hear about him. And for anyone to hear about the Lord, someone must tell them.
15 And before anyone can go and tell them, they must be sent. As the Scriptures say, “How wonderful it is to see someone coming to tell good news!”
16 But not all the people accepted that good news. Isaiah said, “Lord, who believed what we told them?”
17 So faith comes from hearing the Good News. And people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ. - Romans 10 vs 1 - 17

Now, to the meaning of Paul's assertion in verse 17, first we need to understand the meaning of the word faith as used in scripture, and a good place to start is by examining the life of Abraham or that which endeared Abraham to God. According to God, in Genesis 26 vs 5, it was Abraham's living his life in submission and obedience to God's Law and statutes that endeared him, Abraham, to God. Yes, Faith refers to living one's life in continuous submission and obedience to God's Law — a life of obedience to God is what a life of faith entails.

Now Paul's submission in Romans 2 insists that hearing(auditory perception) of God's law alone does not endear one to God, but rather the doing of the Law is what makes one right with God. And doing of God's Law — obedience to God's teachings and commandments — is what we know from examining the case of Abraham — is what Faith is in fact about.

12 People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law.
13 Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says.
14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. - Romans 2 vs 12 - 14

Putting this together, we can then see that Paul's statement in verse 17 does not simply imply that one is endeared to God via the simple auditory perception of God's Law but rather that the process begins with the auditory perception of God's Law after which must then be followed by continuous obedience in order to be made right with God. Paul is insisting that the Good news needs to be told to the people in order for the people to at least hear the Law, after which they then make the decision of their own to follow or not follow that which they have heard with obedience. So, basically, Paul is simply advocating for aggressive preaching of the Good News to all the people of Israel in order that they might at least hear the Truth of God and as many of them who choose to obey after hearing can be saved in the end.

Also of importance to note is the fact that this letter written by Paul, like all of his other letters, does not contain or address the details --- the terms and conditions .i.e the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ---- of the Gospel, God's Law in the Kingdom of God. Those who cling to loose interpretations of the words of Paul in place of the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ cannot be said to be living in faith as the Gospel refers to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, God's Law, and Truth in the Kingdom of God.

joshuapharm:
■ If your works are good and you have not heard about Jesus, you qualify for heaven.
■ My church member told me like 7 years ago how she dreamt that her mum(a good Muslim) made heaven. That one is even far, one happened 2 years ago, his mum died. And they found out (I think via dream) that she made heaven. I've also heard of traditional religion worshippers that follow the law of their conscience, making heaven.
■ Please don't be decieved by the story that you need to believe in Jesus to make heaven. The thief at the right hand of Jesus was not born again, yet made heaven.
■ The people that followed the baptism of John the Baptist also made heaven. I find that atheism is due to insufficient information and we christians are also insufficiently informed.
On my Twitter page - RealBibleTopics we seek to discuss issues like this, please follow us.

1. Then by your own words, you condemn Jesus Christ who claimed that He alone is the Way to the Father, the very one who brought to you the promise of Heaven, as a deceiver and liar. Religion has lied to you!

2. So, even though Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear that except a man is a born-again, He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God, you were able to get your church member to instead convince you that what Jesus Christ said is a lie and that Muslims and Pagans — non-born-again— can equally gain access into Heaven which is ruled over by Jesus Christ? Religion has lied to you!

3. The story of the thief does not actually state that the thief made it into Heaven though. As a matter of fact, instead what Jesus Christ did was assure the thief that he, the thief, would be with Him, Jesus Christ, in the grave that day. Jesus Christ was in the grave that day aka paradise, and so we are to believe that rather than hang for days on the cross as many backs than were known to, the thief also died with Jesus Christ that day on the cross. There was no mention of the word heaven or the Kingdom of God in the context of the conversation that ensued between Jesus Christ and the thief on the cross. So, where in scripture did you make or arrive at this connection between Paradise and Heaven? Religion has lied to you!

4. I am afraid that is a terrible lie as John the Baptist Himself was not of the Kingdom of God. Jesus Christ informed you of this in His Gospels.
Only those who are followers of Jesus Christ can enter Heaven. Jesus Christ made this clear in Scripture. I see now that it is instead that you use Religion to lie to your own self.

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You cannot follow hold on to the lies fed to you by religion while pretending you don't follow Religion. That amounts to being the architect of your own deceit!

Kobojunkie:
I am afraid all you have done here is twist the words of Paul in order to further what are private delusions abeg! To understand what Paul means, one first needs to be aware of Paul's audience which is made clear in verse one, the people of Israel.
Now, to the meaning of Paul's assertion in verse 17, first we need to understand the meaning of the word faith as used in scripture, and a good place to start is by examining the life of Abraham or that which endeared Abraham to God. According to God, in Genesis 26 vs 5, it was Abraham's living his life in submission and obedience to God's Law and statutes that endeared him, Abraham, to God. Yes, Faith refers to living one's life in continuous submission and obedience to God's Law — a life of obedience to God is what a life of faith entails.

Now Paul's submission in Romans 2 insists that hearing(auditory perception) of God's law alone does not endear one to God, but rather the doing of the Law is what makes one right with God. And doing of God's Law — obedience to God's teachings and commandments — is what we know from examining the case of Abraham — is what Faith is in fact about.


Putting this together, we can then see that Paul's statement in verse 17 does not simply imply that one is endeared to God via the simple auditory perception of God's Law but rather that the process begins with the auditory perception of God's Law after which must then be followed by continuous obedience in order to be made right with God. Paul is insisting that the Good news needs to be told to the people in order for the people to at least hear the Law, after which they then make the decision of their own to follow or not follow that which they have heard with obedience. So, basically, Paul is simply advocating for aggressive preaching of the Good News to all the people of Israel in order that they might at least hear the Truth of God and as many of them who choose to obey after hearing can be saved in the end.

Also of importance to note is the fact that this letter written by Paul, like all of his other letters, does not contain or address the details --- the terms and conditions .i.e the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ---- of the Gospel, God's Law in the Kingdom of God. Those who cling to loose interpretations of the words of Paul in place of the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ cannot be said to be living in faith as the Gospel refers to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, God's Law, and Truth in the Kingdom of God.

Hi bro, thanks for your response.



But you've said a lot that I agree with. However, all that you've said has nothing to do with the point I raised. So I don't know how I'm twisting Paul's words in Romans 2.



2 things.

1 Paul talked about Gentiles (that we can call non Christians) who do not have the law but live according to the law

2 Paul told us that these people will not be judged according to the law but by their conscience.


And I've mentioned people that I know, non Christians that made heaven.



So please explain what I said wrong.

joshuapharm:
2 things.
■Paul talked about Gentiles (that we can call non Christians) who do not have the law but live according to the law
■ Paul told us that these people will not be judged according to the law but by their conscience.
And I've mentioned people that I know, non Christians that made heaven.
So please explain what I said wrong.

1. You need to read all of what Paul said in the entire letter to essentially grasp him. Paul, himself, nothing but a servant of Jesus Christ, could not have opened his mouth to disavow Jesus Christ, so what makes you believe that the same Paul would have essentially rendered Jesus Christ a liar by claiming there exists a way order than Jesus Christ by which to reach God?

■ In verse 13 Paul insists that righteousness cannot be found outside of God's Law, in this case, Jesus Christ, meaning that for one to be made right with God, one in fact has to obey every inch of God's Law — Jesus Christ offered declared cursed those who would obey some laws rejecting others. If you throw this out of whatever conclusion you come up with, you are no longer presenting Paul's message but a concoction of your own making.

■ Now, as for hearing the Law or not hearing of the Law- verse 14 - verse 15 -, what Paul said is far from the many assumptions you have made regarding what he wrote there in those verses which you continue to pull out of context. Take my particular case for instance. I never got to hear(auditory perception) God's Law from the mouth of any man. No one preached the Truth of God as taught by Jesus Christ to my person, yet through my conscience — I had a conscience which convinced me without hearing from men that I needed to find and do God's WIll/Law in order to obtain answers from Him— God Himself led my person to find His Law and Truth — Jesus Christ —and obeying His Law. Recall that in Jeremiah God said this is what He would in fact do.

31 This is what the Lord said, “The time is coming when I will make a new agreement with the family of Israel and with the family of Judah.
32 It will not be like the agreement I made with their ancestors. I made that agreement when I took them by the hand and brought them out of Egypt. I was their master, but they broke that agreement.” This message is from the Lord.
33 “In the future, I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 People will not have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the Lord, because all people, from the least important to the most important, will know me.” This message is from the Lord. “I will forgive them for the evil things they did. I will not remember their sins.” - Jeremiah 31 vs 31 - 34

So, what Paul said is that even those who have never heard — been preached to— will also be led by God — their conscience, he claims — to doing what God commands in His Law, Jesus Christ which God said He will right in their hearts.

■ Paul pretty much confirmed that it is indeed by the Law, Jesus Christ, that all works will be judged when he stated in verse 16 that all works will be judged according to the Law, Jesus Christ. Again, there is no righteousness to be had for any man outside of God's Law, Jesus Christ.

2. There is only one judgment to come and that judgment is of those who belong to the Kingdom of God aka those who are born-again - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. Only those who are born-again are able to partake of that judgment. So, think, this judgment by the standard that is the conscience, who exactly will officiate over it and when? Certainly not Paul because Paul was, according to stories, born-again, and will himself be judged by Jesus Christ.

Kobojunkie:
1. Then by your own words, you condemn Jesus Christ who claimed that He alone is the Way to the Father, the very one who brought to you the promise of Heaven, as a deceiver and liar. Religion has lied to you!

2. So, even though Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear that except a man is a born-again, He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God, you were able to get your church member to instead convince you that what Jesus Christ said is a lie and that Muslims and Pagans — non-born-again— can equally gain access into Heaven which is ruled over by Jesus Christ? Religion has lied to you!

3. The story of the thief does not actually state that the thief made it into Heaven though. As a matter of fact, instead what Jesus Christ did was assure the thief that he, the thief, would be with Him, Jesus Christ, in the grave that day. Jesus Christ was in the grave that day aka paradise, and so we are to believe that rather than hang for days on the cross as many backs than were known to, the thief also died with Jesus Christ that day on the cross. There was no mention of the word heaven or the Kingdom of God in the context of the conversation that ensued between Jesus Christ and the thief on the cross. So, where in scripture did you make or arrive at this connection between Paradise and Heaven? Religion has lied to you!

4. I am afraid that is a terrible lie as John the Baptist Himself was not of the Kingdom of God. Jesus Christ informed you of this in His Gospels.
Only those who are followers of Jesus Christ can enter Heaven. Jesus Christ made this clear in Scripture. I see now that it is instead that you use Religion to lie to your own self.

---

You cannot follow hold on to the lies fed to you by religion while pretending you don't follow Religion. That amounts to being the architect of your own deceit!

On number 1, you're correct. Two truths can exist. One doesn't have to negate the other. Christ is the only way to the Father, yes. The gentiles will the judged by their conscience, that's correct too. But I'm not going to argue with you on this. When we meet in heaven, we will see.


On number 2, I'll ask you, let's do a Twitter space meeting where we can analyze the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. I did this study when I was reading the book of Matthew. The kingdom of God is not the same thing as the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom of God in that scripture is not heaven but I cannot explain via text.


On number 3, if you cannot link paradise to heaven then I don't know what to say.

On number 4 as well, I have words too.

Kobojunkie:
1. You need to read all of what Paul said in the entire letter to essentially grasp him. Paul, himself, nothing but a servant of Jesus Christ, could not have opened his mouth to disavow Jesus Christ, so what makes you believe that the same Paul would have essentially rendered Jesus Christ a liar by claiming there exists a way order than Jesus Christ by which to reach God?

■ In verse 13 Paul insists that righteousness cannot be found outside of God's Law, in this case, Jesus Christ, meaning that for one to be made right with God, one in fact has to obey every inch of God's Law — Jesus Christ offered declared cursed those who would obey some laws rejecting others. If you throw this out of whatever conclusion you come up with, you are no longer presenting Paul's message but a concoction of your own making.

■ Now, as for hearing the Law or not hearing of the Law- verse 14 - verse 15 -, what Paul said is far from the many assumptions you have made regarding what he wrote there in those verses which you continue to pull out of context. Take my particular case for instance. I never got to hear(auditory perception) God's Law from the mouth of any man. No one preached the Truth of God as taught by Jesus Christ to my person, yet through my conscience — I had a conscience which convinced me without hearing from men that I needed to find and do God's WIll/Law in order to obtain answers from Him— God Himself led my person to find His Law and Truth — Jesus Christ —and obeying His Law. Recall that in Jeremiah God said this is what He would in fact do.
So, what Paul said is that even those who have never heard — been preached to— will also be led by God — their conscience, he claims — to doing what God commands in His Law, Jesus Christ which God said He will right in their hearts.

■ Paul pretty much confirmed that it is indeed by the Law, Jesus Christ, that all works will be judged when he stated in verse 16 that all works will be judged according to the Law, Jesus Christ. Again, there is no righteousness to be had for any man outside of God's Law, Jesus Christ.

2. There is only one judgment to come and that judgment is of those who belong to the Kingdom of God aka those who are born-again - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. Only those who are born-again are able to partake of that judgment. So, think, this judgment by the standard that is the conscience, who exactly will officiate over it and when? Certainly not Paul because Paul was, according to stories, born-again, and will himself be judged by Jesus Christ.

So in your submission, everyone that hasn't heard of Jesus Christ is going to hell?



All the best.

joshuapharm:
■ On number 1, you're correct. Two truths can exist. One doesn't have to negate the other. Christ is the only way to the Father, yes. The gentiles will the judged by their conscience, that's correct too. But I'm not going to argue with you on this. When we meet in heaven, we will see.
■ On number 2, I'll ask you, let's do a Twitter space meeting where we can analyze the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. I did this study when I was reading the book of Matthew. The kingdom of God is not the same thing as the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God in that scripture is not heaven but I cannot explain via text.
■On number 3, if you cannot link paradise to heaven then I don't know what to say.
■ On number 4 as well, I have words too.

1. In the Kingdom of God, there is only one Truth and that Truth is Jesus Christ - John 14 vs 6. Every other idea is a lie in the Kingdom of God. And according to Jesus Christ, He was sent only to the Lost sheep of Israel, and not to the non-Israelites - Matthew 15 vs 22 - 24 & Matthew 10 vs 5 - 6 & Matthew 7 vs 6. That means that all those referred to as Gentiles are in fact the non-Jewish Israelites. Non-Israelites are not included in the promise that was given by God through Jesus Christ. Jeremiah 31 vs 3 - 34 confirms this. God's agreement and Covenant, Jesus Christ, was made only with the Nation of Israel(The Gentiles) and the Nation of Judah(the Jews).

And according to Jesus Christ, if you are at least of the blood of Jacob and also not born-again, you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God where Heaven and Hell are both domains.

2. You don't need to do that as it is written in Scripture. Jesus Christ told you that He is King over a Kingdom that is not of this world — the Kingdom of God. Well, the King, Jesus Christ, in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 pretty much explained that in the Kingdom He is King over is found Heaven and Hell. Yes, both Heaven and Hell are inside the Kingdom of God. This information is over 1000 years old too.

3. Recall that Jesus Christ told the thief that he, the thief, would be in paradise with Him on that day? Well, Jesus Christ was nowhere near Heaven on that day instead He was in the grave and remained there for 3 days. That means Paradise is in the grave, and not in Heaven.

4. Well, if your words are piled onto a foundation built on sinking sand, then what you have is nothing but more of religion(the sinking sand of lies) and nothing more.