Hello everyone,

It's been a while. Hope you all are doing well. I'll get straight to the point.

In just about every religious debate, theists, i.e Christians, Muslims etc, seem to claim not only that a God exists and created us, but that their specific God is the one who is responsible for said creation, and no one else.

I believe it's time to put that claim to the test. So this is very simple.

For the sake of this discussion, I will accept that a "higher power" exists. Now, all the theist needs to do, is to prove that the specific God they worship is indeed the higher power responsible for the universe.

In other words.. I'm not asking you to prove that A God exists.. I'm asking you to prove that YOUR specific God exists, and that it is indeed the creator of the universe, and not someone or something else.

For example, you are to prove that Yahweh or Vishnu is the creator of the universe, as opposed to Allah, or Ra, or Zeus.

Things that do not count as proof

1. Quoting religious scripture (anyone from any faith could do that.. it doesn't prove anything)
2. Saying "i feel it in my heart"
3. Obscure and unambiguous data masked under the term "scientific"

I'll stop here for now


Theists... The floor is yours

I wish I were a theist of the sort you request so I can tell you how impossible it is to prove a thing to blind person who can not see. Great pity it is indeed.

Still, I hope theists are smarter than to fall for your weak bait, though I wouldn't hold my breathe too much.

In order words, your statement is like someone asking scientists to prove the existence of natural selection without quoting from Charles Dawin's book THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES?

Who does that?

paxonel:
In order words, your statement is like someone asking scientists to prove the existence of natural selection without quoting from Charles Darwin's book THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES?

Who does that?

The sort who is seeking, I guess. Or the sort in who's head a god must exist or they wouldn't open so many threads on gods they say don't exist.

Or a bored person seeking free entertainment because they can't afford Netflix.

OP do you believe in JuJu?

Wilgrea7:

1. Quoting religious scripture (anyone from any faith could do that.. it doesn't prove anything)
2. Saying "i feel it in my heart"
3. Obscure and unambiguous data masked under the term "scientific"

I'll stop here for now

Theists... The floor is yours

You can not exclude evidence which is allowed by the Evidence Act especially when this God knowledge is is a Truth which was seen and experienced by those who were there, in the past, which was handed down to us, hence the Bible cannot be excluded as evidence.

Wilgrea7:
Hello everyone,

It's been a while. Hope you all are doing well. I'll get straight to the point.

In just about every religious debate, theists, i.e Christians, Muslims etc, seem to claim not only that a God exists and created us, but that their specific God is the one who is responsible for said creation, and no one else.

I believe it's time to put that claim to the test. So this is very simple.

For the sake of this discussion, I will accept that a "higher power" exists. Now, all the theist needs to do, is to prove that the specific God they worship is indeed the higher power responsible for the universe.

In other words.. I'm not asking you to prove that A God exists.. I'm asking you to prove that YOUR specific God exists, and that it is indeed the creator of the universe, and not someone or something else.

For example, you are to prove that Yahweh or Vishnu is the creator of the universe, as opposed to Allah, or Ra, or Zeus.

Things that do not count as proof

1. Quoting religious scripture (anyone from any faith could do that.. it doesn't prove anything)
2. Saying "i feel it in my heart"
3. Obscure and unambiguous data masked under the term "scientific"

I'll stop here for now


Theists... The floor is yours

There's one nigga I'm currently engaged in this particular topic, TenQ . Dude, uses the bolded to project that god and specifically Yahweh exists. Even though his grasp of science is questionable at best, it still doesn't stop him

budaatum:
I wish I were a theist of the sort you request so I can tell you how impossible it is to prove a thing to blind person who can not see. Great pity.it is indeed.

Still, I hope theists are smarter than to fall for your weak bait, though I wouldn't hold my breathe too much.

Read The Emperor without clothes

Dtruthspeaker:


You can not exclude evidence which is allowed by the Evidence Act especially when this God knowledge is is a Truth which was seen and experienced by those who were there, in the past, which was handed down to us, hence the Bible cannot be excluded as evidence.

Is the bible used as evidence in court?

budaatum:
I wish I were a theist of the sort you request so I can tell you how impossible it is to prove a thing to blind person who can not see. Great pity.it is indeed.

In what way am i unable to see this "proof"?

budaatum:
I wish I were a theist of the sort you request so I can tell you how impossible it is to prove a thing to blind person who can not see. Great pity.it is indeed.

Still, I hope theists are smarter than to fall for your weak bait, though I wouldn't hold my breathe too much.

Eye is not the only sense organ of the body, we can feel, smell, hear and taste.

Human can't see 99% of colours that exist, but we believe there are colours that exist we can't see.

CCIA:
OP do you believe in JuJu?

I believe juju exist and it's power is limited like that of Jehova.

budaatum, if you'd take a momentary pause from all the subtle ad hominems you've been trying to toss around, maybe you'll finally see the point I'm trying to make.

Dtruthspeaker, paxonel, since you've both raised similar questions about religious scripture as proof, I'll address why they don't count, and with examples too.

Please note. I didn't ask you to prove A God.. i asked you to prove YOUR God.

Every religious scripture makes unsubstantiated claims about their respective gods. In the bible, koran, vedas, guru grant sahib, and other religious text, it is claimed that the respective gods in these books solely created the universe.

We have multiple conflicting claims as to who is indeed the creator. It us up to the people making the claims to prove it.

In today's world, if a random man walks up to a kid and claims "this is my son".. would that automatically make it true? Now imagine if 10 different men came up claiming they were all the father.

Do you now realize how absurd it is to try to use religious text as evidence? In what version of the universe is an unsubstantiated claim used as any sort of credible evidence for something?

jaephoenix:

Read The Emperor without clothes

Never heard of it. Read the The Emperor's New Clothes though, many many times from about 5 years old as I had a wonderful copy of Hans Christian Andersen's Complete Fairy Tales and Stories.

Handed it down to my 4 siblings who all read it till it fell apart.

jaephoenix:

Is the bible used as evidence in court?

Men, I am tired of your very stupid questions, you are too stupid continually for me to bear. So please, unless you have a very intelligent thing to say, something which your betters will ask, don't mention me.

jaephoenix:

There's one nigga I'm currently engaged in this particular topic, TenQ . Dude, uses the bolded to project that god and specifically Yahweh exists. Even though his grasp of science is questionable at best, it still doesn't stop him

I've debated TenQ a few times here. He seems like a well learned person, especially when compared to other theists here like thetruthspeaker.

I've noticed he tries to merge scientific knowledge with Christian theology, especially on issues like morality and the existence of his specific God.. although so far he has repeatedly failed to do so.

Wilgrea7:
budaatum, if you'd take a momentary pause from all the subtle ad hominems you've been trying to toss around, maybe you'll finally see the point I'm trying to make.

Wilgrea7, you been here since 2016 still asking for evidence for a god from people who don't know what evidence looks like, so I am deciding to take it upon myself to ensure you evolve and I intend to use all the ad whatever you call it to ensure you do so, but if you can't reap what you sow you are very welcome to not sow so you do not have to reap.

Now read it again because I am absolutely certain you have not yet got what I am saying, and after you do read it again, then first show me you comprende before you bother with a response please. And thank you very much in advance.

Oh. And a very good morning to you, Wilgrea7. Isn't so beautiful.

Wilgrea7:
..Every religious scripture makes unsubstantiated claims about their respective gods...

This is you giving your opinion (judgment) (where it is wrong in the case of the Bible) and your judgement is not based on Law but on your personal preference (which of course we all know first hand) aka bias. And every biased judgement is invalid.

So you see, you are already wrong in pre-judging a matter even before you heard it.

Dtruthspeaker:


This is you giving your opinion (judgment) (where it is wrong in the case of the Bible) and your judgement is not based on Law but on your personal preference (which of course we all know first hand) aka bias. And every biased judgement is invalid.

So you see, you are already wrong in pre-judging a matter even before you heard it.

I'm going to repeat everything you said just so you could see the absurdity in it. This time, I'll replace "Bible" with Koran

This is you giving your opinion (judgment) (where it is wrong in the case of the Koran) and your judgement is not based on Law but on your personal preference (which of course we all know first hand) aka bias. And every biased judgement is invalid.

So you see, you are already wrong in pre-judging a matter even before you heard it.

Now do you see how empty your statement sounds?

budaatum:


Wilgrea7, you been here since 2016 still asking for evidence for a god

2 things.

Firstly, my early posts in 2016 show that i was very much a theist, who later progressed towards deism, and finally agnosticism. Go look again.

Secondly, I've said it several times in this thread that I'm not asking for proof of A God. It bothers me a little that you still think this to be the case.

from people who don't know what evidence looks like, so I am deciding to take it upon myself to ensure you evolve and I intend to use all the ad whatever you call it to ensure you do so,

Thank you for that. I'd be happy to engage with your efforts to help me "evolve".

but if you can't reap what you sow you are very welcome to not sow so you do not have to reap.

Now read it again because I am absolutely certain you have not yet got what I am saying, and after you do read it again, then first show me you comprende before you bother with a response please. And thank you very much in advance.

It seems you're the one who's not reading through my posts clearly enough as I've explained above.

Oh. And a very good morning to you, Wilgrea7. Isn't so beautiful.

And to you too sir. And i hope you find some beauty in the rest of the day.

Wilgrea7:

Please note. I didn't ask you to prove A God.. i asked you to prove YOUR God.

Now, for the flip side.

Why, pray tell should I, for instance, be proving my god to you? Are you of any particular importance that proving my god to you would benefit my god in some way? Or do you think it is I who would benefit by proving my god to you?

Just imagine I actually bother, and I do try to prove my god to you. Would you now be worshipping my god so that my god now has to share it's time and attention between you and I so I get half and you get half?

I mean, if it were my plate of food we are talking about here, wouldn't I be silly proving the food is on my plate if the end result is that you get to eat half of my food?

Wilgrea7, now that I think of it, you want to 419 swindle me out of my god's attention so you can have some of it, and unfortunately for you, I am not that dumb to fall for you 419!

Go and find your own god please instead of asking others to prove their god to you, is what I would very strongly suggest to you, unless you can find those who are generous enough to share their god with people like you who unfortunately do not yet have one. But know that you'd be getting little attention from a communal god instead of all the attention you'd get if your god belonged only to you.

The decapitalisation is intended to hide my god from you.

budaatum:


Now, for the flip side.

Why, pray tell should I, for instance, be proving my god to you? Are you of any particular importance that proving my god to you would benefit my god in some way? Or do you think it is I who would benefit by proving my god to you?

Just imagine I actually bother, and I do try to prove my god to you. Would you now be worshipping my god so that my god now has to share it's time and attention between you and I so I get half and you get half?

I mean, if it were my plate of food we are talking about here, wouldn't I be silly proving the food is on my plate if the end result is that you get to eat half of my food?

Wilgrea7, now that I think of it, you want to 419 swindle me out of my god's attention so you can have some of it, and unfortunately for you, I am not that dumb to fall for you 419!

Go and find your own god please instead of asking others to prove their god to you, is what I would very strongly suggest to you, unless you can find those who are generous enough to share their god with people like you who unfortunately do not yet have one. But know that you'd be getting little attention from a communal god instead of all the attention you'd get if your god belonged only to you.

The decapitalisation is intended to hide my god from you.

So in other words... You either cannot, or will not attempt to prove your God to me.

Then why bother engaging with this thread in the first place?

Wilgrea7:

I'm going to repeat everything you said just so you could see the absurdity in it. This time, I'll replace "Bible" with Koran

This is you giving your opinion (judgment) (where it is wrong in the case of the Koran) and your judgement is not based on Law but on your personal preference (which of course we all know first hand) aka bias. And every biased judgement is invalid.

So you see, you are already wrong in pre-judging a matter even before you heard it.

Now do you see how empty your statement sounds?

This is you being making a fool of yourself in thinking you can put a trailer's alternator in a Keke marwa just because you think it.

You started off being reasonable, stay reasonable.

The Bible I know because I have tested it and therefore I represent it. I do not know the others nor do I represent them and in recognition of this is why you asked this question. Thus, each party is supposed to make their own case as they see fit, within the Laws of debate.

And you know this but because you already know that I would give answers you can not validly counter, therefore you are already violently agitated and already primed to insult because you already know that already I have shown that you have done a wrong already.

Wilgrea7:

Firstly, my early posts in 2016 show that i was very much a theist, who later progressed towards deism, and finally agnosticism. Go look again.

"Finally", you say.

Wilgrea7, your posts show that you are asking and knocking and seeking with all your heart and soul and mind and being, so there's no "finally" about it. Well, not until you die at least. Until then, you are growing and progressing and hopefully evolving like we all are or should. Agnosticism, after all means you don't exactly know yet, which is why you are asking others to prove their god to you instead of you seeking for your own god.

But perhaps buda should have mercy. After all you might need other's proof to help you find your own god.

So, note to buda! Be merciful to Wilgrea7.

Wilgrea7:

So in other words... You either cannot, or will not attempt to prove your God to me.

Hell no I would not prove my God to you!

Even if I tried you would not ever understand because my god is a selfish god, no body but buda does it have time for

Or I might do a darn good job and convince you and then have to share my god's time and attention with you.

Wilgrea7:
Then why bother engaging with this thread in the first place?

Boredom, really. Nothing better to do. To help you evolve. To pull your legs.

Ah! You choose whichever suits you, Wilgrea7.

GOD simply means SUPREME BEING even if i have never met Buhari one on one his forces are evidence that Buhari exist the evidence that my God exist is the works His Witnesses are actively doing throughout the earth! Isaiah 43:10-12
So if anyone feels that's not evidence enough let such a person prove something else exist when people throughout the earth can feel it's impact!

MaxInDHouse:
GOD simply means SUPREME BEING even if i have never met Buhari one on one his forces are evidence that Buhari exist the evidence that my God exist is the works His Witnesses are actively doing throughout the earth! Isaiah 43:10-12
So if anyone feels that's not evidence enough let such a person prove something else exist when people throughout the earth can feel it's impact!

Buhari already exists that is the problem.

This is a case similar to proving that a certain estate is owned by a Person and by wilgrea's mind he imagines and creates the impression that there are certain persons contesting ownership of the said property, when in fact apart from God of Israel in the Bible, none of them have shown that they true ownership of this world.

Only God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Only God. All others are simply the creations of evil people who wanted to annoy God or the God contact a people some where had with God or a people who real eyesed that God's presence is in Nature.

Wilgrea7:


I've debated TenQ a few times here. He seems like a well learned person, especially when compared to other theists here like thetruthspeaker.

I've noticed he tries to merge scientific knowledge with Christian theology, especially on issues like morality and the existence of his specific God.. although so far he has repeatedly failed to do so.

Thanks for the indirect complement. When I debate Muslims, I use their Qur'an, Tafsirs and Hadiths.
When I debate Atheists, I am compelled to use LOGIC and SCIENCE!
It is only logical since the Bible and the Faith is Fairy tale to you.

Unfortunately, you are not in a position to judge my failure or not.

Peace!

AnyanwuSilas:

Eye is not the only sense organ of the body, we can feel, smell, hear and taste.

That's what the "heart and soul and mind and being" infers in "ask and knock and seek". Just that those writing in those days thought the senses included the "heart and soul and mind and being".

AnyanwuSilas:
Human can't see 99% of colours that exist, but we believe there are colours that exist we can't see.

You "believe". Some, or many, know there are colours that exist that they may not see with their eyes but can detect with other means like with colour measuring instruments.

If you "believe", you don't exactly know because you have not checked.

budaatum:

That's what the "heart and soul and mind and being" infers in "ask and knock and seek". Just that those writing in those days thought the senses included the "heart and soul and mind and being".


You "believe". Some, or many, know there are colours that exist that they may not see with their eyes but can detect with other means like with colour measuring instruments.

If you "believe", you don't exactly know because you have not checked.

When I say we believe, I meant we know through the electromagnetic spectrum.

The heart is a pumping machine, can you prove the existence of souls?

AnyanwuSilas:

When I say we believe, I meant we know through the electromagnetic spectrum. The heart is a pumping machine, can you prove the existence of souls?

SOUL means CHARACTER!

Your mother is a woman that we can find millions of mothers having the same skin color, height, weight and status exactly like your mom but she can't be replaced in your life not that we can't find other women like her but she is whom she has proved to be to your all your life: Mother!

So there's nothing anyone can use to replace her in your life. That's what a soul means not something that continue existing when her heart stops beating. Ezekiel 18:4

Dtruthspeaker:


This is you being making a fool of yourself in thinking you can put a trailer's alternator in a Keke marwa just because you think it.

You started off being reasonable, stay reasonable.

The Bible I know because I have tested it and therefore I represent it. I do not know the others nor do I represent them and in recognition of this is why you asked this question. Thus, each party is supposed to make their own case as they see fit, within the Laws of debate.

And you know this but because you already know that I would give answers you can not validly counter, therefore you are already violently agitated and already primed to insult because you already know that already I have shown that you have done a wrong already.

You seem to have missed my point. Every argument you try to use in favor of your book as some sort of credible evidence, can be used by others in favor of their contradictory book.

A muslim can claim to have known and tested his koran as well. same as a hindu or a sihk. Statements like this rarely do anything to move the discussion forward.

If you point to a verse in the bible that claims Yahweh created humans, a hindu can point to an opposing verse saying brahma did so, and a muslim can do the same in regards to Allah. if you want to point to scripture, which is an unsubstantiated claim, then you must provide some sort of evidence to back it up.