Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication - Religion (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by 1Sharon(f): 9:31pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
OhuDealer: Why was Lord Voldemort mentioned in Harry Potter if he doesn't exist? Alot of Jewish people don't even believe in God not to talk of Jesus. 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by 1Sharon(f): 9:35pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Christistruth03: So you that is all the way in sub-saharan Africa is an expert? 1 Like
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| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by 1Sharon(f): 9:39pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Christistruth03: Are you an Ethiopian Christian? 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by demmie1: 9:51pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Jesus existed with 90% probability because pontius pilate described events of disturbance in jerusalem which matched how the bible described it in his reports to tiberius ceasar. In one of his reports, he described how jews went into uproar over the arrest of common criminals and most historians agree that it is the same thing that the bible described and i agree. To an outside observer, if a thief is arrested and people started riot over it, what he will feel like is why the fuss over judging criminals abd that was exactly how pilate felt and he doesn't have to remember the name of jesus as he sentenced him like he did hundreds of others 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by HellVictorinho6(m): 10:00pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
1Sharon:can u help me with money? |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by chudyprince: 10:17pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
BLASPHEMY |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by nairalanda1(m): 10:17pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Rostikol: 1.Herodotus lived LONG before Jesus, so highly unlikely he wrote about him. 2..Josephus was born some 4-7 years after Jesus died, so he would have lived around the time most of the people who lived when Jesus was still alive. 3.Tacitus actually had access to avaialable historical records in writing his Annals. So, he would have had access to records on Christ and the Chrestians. 4. Your argument is very flawed. Some of the best historical books I have read on certain historical figures were written by people who were not alive when the said figures lived. (as an example , I read a historical sketch of England's Black Prince, who lived 800 years ago, by someone who was born in the last 60 years. By your argument, you won't have read her books because she did not live around the time of the Black Prince, there fore she must be lying). 5. Speaking of Roman history, all the facts we have about many Roman figures were written by Romans. The only evidence we have that there was a Roman empire from Chinese sources is a brief sketch of the empire. Meanwhile most African source or American source from way back don't have evidence of Roman empire existing. Does that mean the Roman empire did not exist.? No. 6. Based on 4 and 5, your dismissal of Tactius and Josephus is seriously bunkum. They had access to material(both Tactius and Josephus) and eyewitnesses (Josephus). The thing is, if I wanted to write a book on a historical figure that lived years long before I was born, would I be disqualified because I did not live when the figure lived? Or would my book be useless because I was not alive when the historical figure was alive? Ok.o. 7. We all accept Oduduwa was the ancestor of the Yoruba. Any contemporary reports of Oduduwa, or Oramiyan or even Sango from non-Yoruba sources? That means, by your reasoning, they did not exist too. Any accounts of the origin of ancient Yoruba religion from contemporary non-Yoruba sources? That means by your reasoning, Yoruba traditional religion is bunk too. Ditto the religion of the Igbos, Hausas, and a host of other traditional religions. P.S : Infact your comment dismissing Tacitus and Josephus as basically writing based on hearsay is ridiculous. Taken to extremes, we can say that any historian writing about anything that happened long before they were born or lived is writing based on hearsay. That has a lot of fun issues for the study of history as a whole. (History is hearsay...lol) 4 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Lovelive: 10:25pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Jesus |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by LordIsaac(m): 10:35pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Jesus lives; yesterday, today and forever! 2 Likes |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by ruggedtimi(m): 10:39pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Rostikol:the Romans will fabricate stories to favour their culture. Jesus isn't a Roman |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by nairalanda1(m): 10:41pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
ruggedtimi: Plus most of the early Roman sources of Jesus..from Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny are all critical of Jesus and his followers. Not the kind of attitude one would expect from people who supposedly invented Jesus. Secondly, ancient Romans regarded Jews in terms that we would regard as anti-semitic. Largely because Jews were monotheistic, which was a strange thing to the very polytheistic Romans. 2 Likes |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Resurrection212: 10:45pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Jesus lived during the stone age. Nothing like contemporary writer can say anything about jesus except Peter , john and paul are the witnessed of the son of man wonder and miracle. Rostikol: |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by izicooo(f): 10:51pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
I completely disagree with the OP but on critical thought he just said the truth. Don't get me twisted, i'm a Christian oo, a worker in my church but the OP is making some sense here. Most of these Bible stories i'm beginning to doubt them as fairry tales. #myview 2 Likes |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 10:52pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
nairalanda1: ''Josephus wrote all of his surviving works after his establishment in Rome (c. AD 71) under the patronage of the Flavian Emperor Vespasian. As is common with ancient texts, however, there are no known manuscripts of Josephus' works that can be dated before the 11th century, and the oldest which do survive were copied by Christian monks'' according to research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus So the FIRST non-biblical CLAIM about Jesus' existence was made a full 71 YEARS after his alleged 'ascension' from a dinner table. The NEW TESTAMENT ITSELF was written between 50 AD and 100 AD. SO NOBODY, including the so-called bible writers wrote about a ''JESUS'' for at least 50 YEARS after he supposedly lived. This, in a region where writing was widespread in the period. How the hell do you explain that the ''SON OF GOD'' came to Earth, did all these crazy miraculous stuff, and not a SINGLE word was about his existence for 50+ years? It's like somebody not writing a single thing about Nelson Mandela until the year 2067! How does that make sense? 3.Tacitus actually had access to avaialable historical records in writing his Annals. So, he would have had access to records on Christ and the Christians. What records? Name them. He never named any sources. All he wrote was what christians told him. Tacitus wrote the Annals in 116 AD, a full 116 years after 'Jesus' was supposed to have lived. NONE OF THIS SO CALLED 'EVIDENCE OF JESUS' WOULD BE ACCEPTED IN ANY COURT OF LAW. 4. Your argument is very flawed. Some of the best historical books I have read on certain historical figures were written by people who were not alive when the said figures lived. (as an example , I read a historical sketch of England's Black Prince, who lived 800 years ago, by someone who was born in the last 60 years. By your argument, you won't have read her books because she did not live around the time of the Black Prince, there fore she must be lying). Nonsense. Did the Black Prince said to be the son of God who perform miracles and that all who fail to worship him will roast in hel following which bloody crusades to forcibly convert billions of people were made and millions killed? If he did that, THEN we would ask questions, just like we are asking questions about YOUR imported white 'saviour'. 7. We all accept Oduduwa was the ancestor of the Yoruba. Any contemporary reports of Oduduwa, or Oramiyan or even Sango from non-Yoruba sources? That means, by your reasoning, they did not exist too. None of these claim to have a 'SAVIOUR' whom the world must worship or be tortured for an eternity in an unquenchable fire, so their historicity or otherwise of their personalities is immaterial. |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by wegevv: 10:53pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Rostikol: Indeed Unless you experienced something similarly supernatural first hand in your personal life 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 11:02pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
wegevv: Right. And 99% of people have never. When the colonial missionaries tried to convert our ancestors, they laughed in their faces over the Jesus stories. They said it made no sense. Then the British decided that to attend their western schools, whose education system became the only way to access the fruits of our resources which they'd seized - pupils had to abandon their traditional religion, adopt a christian name and get baptised. That was what then forced chiefs and nobles to start sending their kids to missionary schools. It was PURE ECONOMIC BLACKMAIL AND COERCION. That is the ONLY reason these mumu Nigerians are carrying 'Jesus' on their heads today. 4 Likes |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by nairalanda1(m): 11:04pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Rossikk: We can say that about many historical documents. Most documents were written on perishable material, so the best way to preserve them was to copy them over time. That's why we don't have a lot of old material, including a lot of ancient written sources. Flawed argument you have there. SO NOBODY, including the sop called bible writers wrote about a ''JESUS'' for at least 50 YEARS after he supposedly lived. 1.Christianty was a minority religion 2.50 years is quite contemporary enough from a historical perspective. Some of our earliest sources on Julius Caesar date back centures after he died. Maybe Caesar did not exist then. 3. Again, we have a lot of written sources...the gospel and the common sayings source or Q. It's like somebody not writing a single thing about Nelson Mandela until the year 2067! Yes, and society in 31 AD isdifferent from society today. Back then they had poor ways of preserving historical info. When Mandela was born, we had printing presses, and some early forms of recording, by the time he died, we had electronic, print and so on of making records of his life. You are behaving as if life 2000 years ago was like LIFE today. Maybe you have a photograph of Octavian lying around somewhere.... What records? Name them. He never named any sources. All he wrote was what christians told him. Tacitus wrote the Annals in 116 AD, a full 116 years after 'Jesus' was supposed to have lived. In other words, you are basically saying that any historian who writes about historical facts decades, even centuries after they happened, is lying. That's not how history works. Tacitus had access to historical material...we know that. As have many historians of the time past and present. So, he had access to Roman records that were written when Christus was alive. Making flawed assumptions is not agood argument point, old man. Nonsense. Did the Black Prince said to be the son of God who perform miracles and that all who fail to worship him will roast in hel following which bloody crusades to forcibly convert billions of people were made and millions killed? We are arguing about the historicity of Jesus, whether he existed, not about his divinity or whether he was able to do miracles. Stay on topic. Plus, I did not argue that Edward the black Prince could perform miracles (unless he was curing the King's disease, lol...yes, such a thing existed). And I point out again that your argument leads to the assumption that historians who wrtie about figures that lived centuries before they were born are lying. That is riddiculous...and plain wrong. None of these claim to have a 'SAVIOUR' whom the world must worship or be tortured for an eternity in an unquenchable fire, so their historicity or otherwise of their personalities is immaterial. Again, we are not aruging about Jesus' divinity. Or whether he was who he said he was. We are arguing over existence. Stick to the topic. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 11:36pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
nairalanda1: That has no bearing on the authorship of the writings. There is NO CLAIMED AUTHORSHIP for a 'Jesus' prior to 71 AD. That is the fact, whether or not you are imagining older documents in your head. 1.Christianty was a minority religion BALDERDASH. We have ample evidence of Caesar, even beyond written evidence. From actual COINS with his image dating to his era, to full blown STATUES of him made during his lifetime, such as this. ''The Tusculum portrait, also called the Tusculum bust, is the only extant portrait of Julius Caesar which may have been made during his lifetime'' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusculum_portrait  Where is your statue or painting or written record of 'Jesus'? ZERO. 3. Again, we have a lot of written sources...the gospel and the common sayings source or Q. The gospels are not evidence as they were written between 50 and 100 AD. By evidence we mean CONTEMPORANEOUS EVIDENCE, NOT HEARSAY FROM DECADES LATER. All the Romans did was that sometime around 70 AD, they decided to create this new 'saviour' under a name 'christianity' and get everyone to drop their traditional spiritual religions and follow this new thing. They claimed he had lived a century earlier, so you couldn't really dispute it. Then they had some books written to support the new nonsense. THAT IS WHY ALL RECORDS OF ''JESUS'' ARE WRITTEN NEARLY A CENTURY OR MORE AFTER HE 'LIVED'. Yes, and society in 31 AD is different from society today. Back then they had poor ways of preserving historical info. When Mandela was born, we had printing presses, and some early forms of recording, by the time he died, we had electronic, print and so on of making records of his life. Try another excuse. There was MASSIVE WRITING in the period in question, and here are just a FEW major writers in the years 'Jesus' was supposed to be performing miracles, giving massive sermons to thousands of people, raising the dead and getting publicly crucified before waking up on the 3rd day and flying up to heaven. WRITERS WHO SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS, BUT DIDN'T PHILO Philo Judaeus wrote very many books about Jewish religion and history, in the 30s and 40s AD, living in Alexandria, and visiting Jerusalem. Philo was contemporary with 'Jesus' and 'Paul'. Philo visited Jerusalem and had family there, He developed the concept of the Logos and the holy spirit, He was even considered a Christian by some later Christians, He wrote a great deal about related times and peoples and issues. If Jesus had existed, Philo would certainly have written about him and his teachings. Yet...ZERO. SENECA Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome. Seneca wrote a great deal on many subjects and mentioned many people. He was a Stoic, a school of thought considered sympathetic to Christian teachings. In fact, early Christians seemed to have expected him to discuss Christianity - they FORGED letters between him and Paul. How else to explain these forgeries, except as Christian responses to a surprising VOID in Seneca's writings? PLUTARCH Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia in about 90-120 CE. Plutarch wrote about influential Roman figures, including some contemporary to Jesus, Plutarch wrote on Oracles (prophesies), Plutarch wrote on moral issues, Plutarch wrote on spiritual and religious issues. Plutarch's writings also include a fascinating piece known as the "Vision of Aridaeus", a spiritual journey, or out of body experience, or religious fantasy. If Plutarch knew of Jesus or the Gospel events, he would have mentioned them. JUSTUS Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of Jewish Kings in Galilee in late 1st century. Photius read Justus in the 8th century and noted that he did not mention anything: "He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did." It is surprising that a contemporary writer from the very region of Jesus' alleged acts did not mention him. DAMIS Damis wrote most of what we know about Apollonius of Tyana. He was a philospher and mystic exactly contemporary with Jesus and who was rather similar to Jesus - enough for some authors to argue they were one and the same person. If Damis/Apollonius had known of Jesus, he could have easily have been mentioned as a competitor. A story in which Apollonius bested Jesus in debate would not be un-expected. APOLLONIUS PLINY THE ELDER Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote a large Natural History in Rome c.80CE Pliny wrote a great deal - his Natural History mentions HUNDREDS of people, major & minor - writers, leaders, poets, artists - often with as much reason as mentioning Jesus. (Of course like many other writers he talks about astronomy too, but never mentions the Star of Bethlehem or the darkness.) It is not at all un-reasoble for this prolific writer to have mentioned Jesus or the Gospels events. YET, NOT A SINGLE WORD. JUVENAL Decimus Junius Juvenalis wrote sixteen satires in Rome in early 2nd century. COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not. MARTIAL Marcus Valerius Martialus wrote satires in Rome in late 1st century. Martial wrote a large body of poems about all sorts of things. He mentions many people, places, stories and issues - major and minor, within and without Rome, such as : * Stoic suffering of discomfort and death, * virgin's blood, * Roman funerary practices, * the way accused men look in court, * Roman soldiers mocking their leaders, * anointing the body with oil, * Molorchus the good shepherd, * Tutilius a minor rhetorician, Nestor the wise, * the (ugly) Temple of Jupiter, This shows Martial mentions or alludes to many and varied people and issues. He could easily have mentioned Jesus (or the Gospel events) but did not. WHY? 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 11:43pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
PAUSANIAS Pausanias wrote the massive Guide to Greece in mid 2nd century. Pausanias' work is vast and the index covers over 70 pages of small print, I estimate a couple of THOUSAND names are mentioned. He mentions a large number of minor figues from within and without Greece. He even mentions a Jewish prophetess - a figure so minor she is essentially unknown: "Then later than Demo there was a prophetic woman reared among the Jews beyond Palestine; her name was Sabbe." Phokis, Book X, 12, [5] Pausanias also mentions the Jewish rebellion under Hadrian. COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not. EPICTETUS Epictetus is known for several books of Stoic religious and philosophic discourses in the early 2nd century. One of his disciples was Arrian, and thanks to him much of Epictetus' works are extant. Epictetus DID apparently mention "the Galileans", which could be a reference to : * the early Christians, or * the revolt under Judas the Galilean in early 1st century. Either way, this shows quite clearly that Epictetus could refer to a figure such as Jesus. COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not. FRONTO Marcus Cornelius Fronto of Rome wrote several letters in mid 2nd century. According to Minucius Felix, he scandalised rites practiced by Roman Christians - so he could easily have mentioned Jesus. COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not. PERSIUS Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote six fairly long satires in Rome in the mid 1st century, of a rather philosophic nature. The argument that no Roman satirist could be expected to mention Jesus, is proven wrong by the case of a Roman satirist who DID mention Jesus (but only as echoes of later Christian beliefs.) Persius wrote a reasonably large body of work that mentions many people and issues. Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not. Weight: 1 DIO CHRYSOSTOM Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio) wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres in late 1st century, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus. Dio wrote a large number of works in the late 1st century - he certainly could have mentioned Jesus, if he knew of him. COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not. AULUS GELLIUS Aulus Gellius wrote Attic Nights (Nights in Athens), a large compendium of many topics and which mentioned many people. COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not. LUCIUS APULEIUS Lucius Apuleius wrote the Metamorphoses (the Golden Ass or Transformations of Lucius) and many other spiritual, historical, and philosophic works - several survive. COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not. MARCUS AURELIUS Marcus Aelius Aurelius Antoninus wrote the Stoic Meditations in mid 2nd century - he (apparently) refers once to the Christians in XI, 3. COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not. MUSONIUS RUFUS C. Musonius Rufus wrote on Stoic philosophy in Rome in mid 1st century. COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not. ............... Why were all these writers (and many more) who lived during the alleged time of 'Jesus', and who wrote about even insignificant people and things, totally silent about 'Jesus'? |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by nairalanda1(m): 11:51pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Rossikk: Completely ignoring Q. PLus, there is no written soruces for African religion before the twentieth century. All we have are oral traditions, which can be subject to alterations along the line. So that means that African religion too is fake. BALDERDASH. We have ample evidence of Caesar, even beyond written evidence. From actual COINS with his image dating to his era, to full blown STATUES of him made during his lifetime, such as this. Good, now where is your statue or painting of the founder of your African traditional religion Zero. The gospels are not evidence as they were written between 50 and 100 AD. By people who knew Christus.
If they did that, how come Suetonius, Pliny, Tacitus and company when they mention christianity write about it in a negative way. Plus why would polytheists create a monotheist religion...for what? A religion that most of them did not follow for over 300 years after the fact. Oga, you are making things up man. THAT IS WHY ALL RECORDS OF ''JESUS'' ARE WRITTEN NEARLY A CENTURY OR MORE AFTER HE 'LIVED' But you put the gospels at 50-100 ad...which at 50 ad puts it within 20 -30 years of Jesus living. Plutarch All those writers you mentioned mentioned nothing about African traditional religion , when they could have....(some Roman explorers had contacts with subsaharan Africa), therefore African traditional religion does not exist by your reasoning. Plus if Christianity was invented by the Romans in ad 71, won't they have mentioned it.? Your reasoning is very flawed. Yes, author X did not write about Jesus, but they also did not write about the hundreds of religions and practices that existed in the Roman empire, African religion, Scandanavian religion and so forth...therefore by your reasoning, all that did not exist because they did not write about it. Good evening, it was interesting talking with thee. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Righthussle: 11:55pm On Jun 27, 2023 |
Rostikol: Exactly. |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 12:08am On Jun 28, 2023 |
nairalanda1: African SPIRITUALITY is not dependent on 'saviours' and 'personalities' like 'Jesus'. African spirituality is dated to tens of thousands of years old. All it does is acknowledge there is Supreme Being, who has helpers or assistants known a deities, that humans are immortal souls here on Earth for a brief time, to return back home to the land of the ancestors upon death. Your job is to KNOW THYSELF and let heart be light as a feather (concepts christianity stole from African spirituality). SO AFRICAN RELIGION HAS NOTHING TO PROVE TO YOU OR ANY CHRISTIANS. Most of your christian tales are stolen from earlier spiritual traditions oAfrica, and then distorted to become worship of a fake white 'saviour'. Even the whole Jesus and Mary story was STOLEN from the ancIent black African religion of Egypt and Nubia, with the Egyptian Son of God Horus-At (from where we got 'Orisha', Olisa, Olise and other West African pantheons) whose mother was ISIS-MERI.  If they did that, how come Suetonius, Pliny, Tacitus and company when they mention christianity write about it in a negative way. Are you dumb? Just because the Roman leaders invented 'jesus' doesn't mean everyone fell in line and supported them. Plus why would polytheists create a monotheist religion...for what? A religion that most of them did not follow for over 300 years after the fact. Go and read the book, 'CREATING CHRIST' to know why they did. But here is a taster: Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity by James Valliant and Warren Fahy ''Christianity was created by the Roman state, and the New Testament was Roman propaganda designed to pacify fanatically rebellious Jews. This is the boldly original thesis James Valliant and Warren Fahy present in Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity. The Romans dominated a vast polyglot, multicultural, religiously tolerant empire of conquered nations. They adroitly co-opted the gods and customs of subjugated peoples as a means of assimilating enemy tribes under their political hegemony. Jews, on the other hand, are known to have been fanatically monotheistic, ferociously nationalistic, intensely xenophobic, and fiercely intolerant of paganism. Ancient Judea was a seething hotbed of Jewish fanatics determined to overthrow secular Roman governance and establish an independent state ruled by strict orthodox Judaism. The Jews utterly repudiated Rome’s vision of a religiously tolerant empire. In their view, God’s “chosen people” held “the truth” denied to lesser faiths and tribes. The two cultures were ice and heat, water and fire. The relentless Jewish uprisings against Rome were inevitable. Valliant and Fahy describe the conflict, drawing parallels with modern events: Religious fanatics from the Middle East are waging an assault on Western Civilization, and have just struck a demoralizing blow to the very capital of “foreign decadence.” Leery of war with an entire people, the West acknowledges only advocates of peace to be “true” followers of the terrorists’ religion. Indeed, Western leaders claim that their attackers’ own dogma commands peace. The year is 66 C.E. The civilization under attack is the Roman Empire. And the terrorists: an ancient fanatical sect of Judaism.1 (ix) The cultural conflict was bitter. Twice, the Jews rose against Roman subjugation. The first war was fought between 66 and 73 CE and the second between 132 and 136 CE. The Romans, of course, wielded a powerful military. They were brutal conquerors who went through Judea with a blowtorch. Valliant and Fahy write: In the end, two prolonged, bloody wars were fought in Judea in the 1st and 2nd Centuries, wars that cost hundreds of thousands of lives, the enslavement of thousands more, the complete and final destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem [leaving only what has come to be known as “the Wailing Wall”], and a legal expulsion of the Jewish people from Judea that extended the Diaspora for two thousand years. . . . the conflict between Romans and Jews was a cultural and military cataclysm that would reverberate through the centuries. (x–xi) Although the Romans were ruthless conquerors, they were also political geniuses. For example, the Romans conquered Greece in 146 BCE and co-opted the Greek gods, incorporating them into the Roman pantheon. They ascribed to Jupiter the qualities of Zeus, and both gods could be worshipped in either name. They cross-identified their own deities with Greek ones, giving them new stories and traits. Large and important elements of Greek culture and religion were welcomed and integrated with Roman culture, making Greeks as at home as is possible for conquered peoples to be in a vast military empire. The Romans did this repeatedly. Given this, the authors write: “Attempting to adapt and conform the hostile Hebrew religion to Roman culture, and especially its messianic flashpoint, would have been the Romans’ standard practice and, considering the stakes, one of their major priorities” . As Valliant writes elsewhere, “If there were not an official Roman form of Judaism, it would be a lacuna. But there is—Christianity.” The evidence for this thesis falls into two categories: that within the New Testament and that without. 'Creating Christ' shows that the New Testament should be read as a political plea to fanatical Jews to obey the Roman state. In a famous line, Jesus commands Jews to obey Caesar and to pay their taxes to Rome; further, he befriends the hated tax collectors. In an era of bitter Jewish tension with Greco-Roman culture, he declares that the faith of a Roman centurion exceeds that of any Jew. He repeatedly calls for peace and even proclaims the very non-Jewish, anti-Old Testament principle that Jews should turn the other cheek and not resist evil. Jesus delivers this exhortation to a people whose holy book repeatedly preaches the need to annihilate all pagans occupying the Holy Land of God’s “chosen people.” For example, speaking of pagans, God says in the Old Testament, “I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite from before thee. . . . I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. . . . They shall not dwell in thy land.” 'Jesus' preached nonviolence against Rome to a people nurtured on such Old Testament calls for relentless warfare against pagans. In 70 CE, the future emperor Titus razed the Jews’ sacred Second Temple. Valliant and Fahy point out the generally accepted truth that the earliest Gospel—that of Mark—was most likely written in the 70s CE, a few years after the destruction of the Second Temple and forty years after Jesus’s 'crucifixion'. Therein, Jesus “predicted” the destruction of the Second Temple as punishment for the Jews’ war against Rome, saying that peace would ensue thereafter. Titus, who claimed to be the second coming of Christ (as had his father, Vespasian), now offered to Jewish followers of Jesus the era of peace and flourishing he promised—the Pax Romana (Roman peace)—on the grounds, of course, that they desist. Titus thereby fulfilled Jesus’s “prophecy.” Or, as Valliant and Fahy cogently argue, the “prophecy” was written to cohere with and legitimize Roman conquest: “Jesus prophesies that the ‘construction’ of his metaphorical temple, the Church, cannot begin until after the [Jewish Second] Temple is destroyed. Thus, Titus’s deed is a necessary part of God’s plan” . So, the story told in the New Testament is that God punished the Jews for rejecting and murdering the Messiah, for demanding the execution of the “Prince of Peace”—the man who called for nonviolence against Rome. Now they get a second chance to worship him after “Christ’s Glorious Second Coming 40 years later, in the persons of Vespasian and Titus” . 'Creating Christ' makes this clear: The New Testament’s villains—always—are fanatically violent Jews who kill the “Prince of Peace” and war against Rome—and justice is served on them. In the Gospels, the Roman governor, Pilate, is extremely reluctant to execute Jesus; the unruly Jews demand it. In Acts, Roman officials save Paul numerous times from bloodthirsty Jewish mobs intent on murdering him. Paul writes of friends highly placed in the Roman government. Valliant and Fahy note, “Paul . . . closes that letter [to the Philippians] with warm greetings from those ‘in Caesar’s household’” . The message of the New Testament is consistent: “The Gospels, Acts, and even Paul’s letters, show Romans in only one invariably positive light”—and militant Jews only in a negative one. Indeed, the intense anti-Jewish propaganda of the New Testament brought on centuries of bitter Christian anti-Semitism. Valliant and Fahy show that the New Testament drumbeat for obedience to Rome is incessant. For example, the authors quote from Romans 13, in which Paul commands full obedience to Rome: “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. . . . Consequently, whoever rebels against the authorities is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.” Who would most benefit from the teachings of the New Testament in practice? Valliant and Fahy’s book shows that the answer is, unquestionably, Rome. “The Romans realized that a military opposition to the Jewish conflict would not be enough. They would need an ideological campaign, as well”. Perhaps the most striking evidence for the book’s thesis from outside the New Testament pertains to Christian symbolism. The cross did not become the symbol of Christianity until the fourth century CE. For three centuries prior, the Christian symbol was a dolphin wrapped around an anchor. The authors show a picture of this earliest symbol of Christ side by side with a picture of a surviving Roman coin. Such coins were issued in the millions by the Flavian Emperor Titus, who conquered Jerusalem and sacked the Temple just as 'Jesus' had prophesied. The symbol it bears, a dolphin wrapped around an anchor, is the very symbol Christians used to symbolize Christ for the first three centuries before the Emperor Constantine replaced it with the symbol of the cross. (5–6) The authors ask: “How is it possible that the first symbol Christians chose to represent Jesus Christ was used by a Roman emperor—the very emperor who fulfilled Jesus’s prophecy by destroying the Jewish Temple and who proclaimed himself to be the Jewish Messiah?”. The inexplicable becomes clear in light of Valliant and Fahy’s argument. Then there was St. Clement of Rome, who the church considers one of its earliest popes. St. Clement was Titus Flavius Clemens, “Vespasian’s nephew and Titus’s cousin” . He was a consul (a high-ranking government official) under these two emperors. “How could such a close relative of the Flavian emperors [and an official of their government] be the second, third, or fourth pope, or any such high-ranking figure in the early Church?” Because, as the book’s subtitle states, Roman emperors invented Christianity. It’s no surprise that a Catholic saint and an early pope of the church was a close relative and a government functionary of Roman emperors—who themselves claimed to be the Jewish Messiah and the second coming of Jesus Christ. 'Creating Christ' provides a trove of unprecedented insights about the genesis of the modern world’s most popular religion. All interested in Christianity’s provenance would do well to read this boldly original book. https://theobjectivestandard.com/2021/04/creating-christ-how-roman-emperors-invented-christianity-by-james-valliant-and-warren-fahy/ |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by nairalanda1(m): 12:12am On Jun 28, 2023 |
Rossikk: In other words, African religion should not be held to the same standards of proof you hold Christianity to. Anyway, good night. I'm ending it here. 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Highlife217: 12:15am On Jun 28, 2023 |
izicooo: I think it’s okay to take them as edifying legends. Jesus walking on water probably didn’t literally happen, but the metaphorical message is true, with faith you can do anything. 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Nairalander248: 12:24am On Jun 28, 2023 |
Rostikol: They don brain wash this one finish... The thing wey dey pain me be say, when you give your life to Christ, you won't reach out to those on this thread that you actually believe that Jesus Exist... May God bless your soul 🙏 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 12:27am On Jun 28, 2023 |
nairalanda1: There are no false claims made by African spirituality. Everything is verifiable with a trip to a TRADITIONAL PRIEST. He will conduct a DIVINATION in front of you, and tell you things about your life you thought only you knew. He will tell you what your LIFE PURPOSE is on this Earth. Why you are here. THAT'S WHAT WE CALL TRUTH. Not your wretched lies of some imported fake white saviour. 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by nairalanda1(m): 12:32am On Jun 28, 2023 |
Rossikk: But since Plutarch did not write about African religion, therefore it can't possibly exist. 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 12:34am On Jun 28, 2023 |
Nairalander248: Poor brainwashed soul. Indians are still worshiping their cows, the Chinese their dragons, and the Japanese their crocs, and they are THRIVING, because those are the gods of their ancestors. You with your imported oyinbo saviour, are you dong better than them? Or lemme guess. All those Chinese and Indians and Japanese who number BILLIONS, are all going to roast in fire forever.  Is that not what the white man told you in his 'holy' book?  If you don't worship US, ie THE WHITE MAN, ie ''JESUS'', you will burn in an everlasting fire that is unquenchable. That's really what this is all about, and you're a big fool for believing them. Emancipate yourself from foolishness, you hear? 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Kukutenla: 12:35am On Jun 28, 2023 |
Rostikol:Same with Muhammad 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by nairalanda1(m): 12:37am On Jun 28, 2023 |
Nairalander248: A brainwashed person won't be able to argue for his beliefs actively. He or she would just brainlessly parrot the same talking points. The guy you quoted is not brainwashed. Better stop misusing terms. |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 12:37am On Jun 28, 2023 |
nairalanda1: Plutarch was not an African, and knew nothing about African religion. Why the hell would he write about African religion, or are you dumb? We are talking of people who were there in the same country and town and village as 'Jesus' completely BLANKING HIS EXiSTENCE. No use your brain, you hear? It's just there for decoration. |
| Re: Jesus Never Existed. It Is A Roman Fabrication by Rossikk(m): 12:40am On Jun 28, 2023 |
Kukutenla: I haven't done as much research on Muhammed because I was born into a christian environment, so that is my special area of research. I don't care for Islam or Muhammed because they are just as terrible as christianity for Africa. |
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