TenQ:
Of course
A difficult question to answer because lies had preceded Muslims about the perfect preservation of the Quran and now, answering the questions will betray that fact.


Can Muslims do without fabricating their Deen?

FxMasterz:


All manner of lies were told to hold these people in captivity.

Hehehe, the Quran was perfectly preserved indeed. Deceivers.

TenQ:

If the Quran of Abubakr was correct after its compilation, why was Zaid bin Thabit the second time looking for another missen verse.
Till today, we are still looking for the verses of breastfeeding adults ten times as it was part of the editing.


The first Time , Zaid said:
So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palme stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat at-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him.

The Second Time, Zaid said:
Zaid bin Thabit added, "A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuza`ima bin Thabit Al-Ansari.


The so called perfect preservation of the Quran: that was perfectly memorised by Muslims.

FxMasterz:


There's no guarantee that there are no other several missing verses.

How did Zaid realize that a verse was missing? Did he know the whole verses of the Quran to be able to detect missing, non missing and imported verses?

TenQ:


This is what they said in the compilation of the Quran

Sahih al-Bukhari 5005
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
`Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'PI have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." 2.106


Imagine the audacity to leave out SOME of what Ubai (the best of them in recitation) recites.

This had been happening since the time of Mohammed!

Till today it seems many verses of the Quran is lost or deliberately deleted

Sahih Muslim 1050
Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said:
You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).


The verse:
"If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust."
is no more in the current Quran

FxMasterz:


Hahaha, I see scam written all over the place.

1. Allah says he makes sure the crammers of the Quran don't forget what they crammed but he does substitute something better for them. That's to say, some old bad verses can be substituted for some new better verses. It seems Allah grows in wisdom to later realize that a verse is bad, then he causes the crammer.to forget the bad verses in preference for some newer better verses. Scam!!!

FxMasterz:

2. All these 'I have forgotten it's that are being said repeatedly shows that many parts of the Quran had been forgotten, and the Quran itself is not a complete book. The claim of perfect preservation is therefore false. They even left out some of the verses of their best crammer deliberately. This is deceit at best. It is a big scam!!

TenQ:

Even Mohammed himself forgot the Quran.
Why wouldn't he tell Muslims to take the Quran from him rather than his four anointed memorisers.
What would Islam be without lies?

How can Allah cause the Quran to be forgotten and then he brings BETTER or SIMILAR Quran.

Meaning that the Quran is NOT near resembling perfection.





Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available"’.

FxMasterz:


Gbam!

This nails it

Lukuluku69, Antichristian and Abutwins would say this hadith was fabricated. They should please consider the eternal destination of their souls. Forget loyalty to any religion and seek to know the true God. That's the right attitude for salvation.

I advice Muslims to read the Bible for themselves devoid of any bias and also pray with all sincerity "Jesus, I do not believe you are God because the Quran says you're not God. And I do not understand your Godship because I believe you're just a servant like any other prophet. But, I want to seek the truth of who you are. Please if truly you are the Savior, reveal yourself to me as I go through this Bible."

I can assure my Muslim friends that if they pray that prayer above in all sincerity, they'll have Devine encounters with the Almighty God.

Another eye opening thread was opened by Advocatejare, Lukuluku69 was busy cursing instead of him to reexamine what he just read. The images of Baal's striking symbolism with Allah should be some foods for thought. But I'm surprised, the Muslim guy was cursing the person who was telling him the truth.

AbuTwins:


It is foolishness making this claim as you don't even know the reference you are quoting from.
There's absolutely nothing i can say to an already prejudiced mind!

Can you explain the reference he quoted from? Is it an Hadith? Or Qur'an verse? Or from a Scholar of Islam?

The issue i always have with you is the claim that you have the infallible Holy Spirit in you. Yet you keep making blunders toddlers shouldn't make!

AbuTwins:


It is foolishness making this claim as you don't even know the reference you are quoting from.
There's absolutely nothing i can say to an already prejudiced mind!

Can you explain the reference he quoted from? Is it an Hadith? Or Qur'an verse? Or from a Scholar of Islam?

The issue i always have with you is the claim that you have the infallible Holy Spirit in you. Yet you keep making blunders toddlers shouldn't make!

FxMasterz:


Gbam!

This nails it

Lukuluku69, Antichristian and Abutwins would say this hadith was fabricated. They should please consider the eternal destination of their souls. Forget loyalty to any religion and seek to know the true God. That's the right attitude for salvation.

I advice Muslims to read the Bible for themselves devoid of any bias and also pray with all sincerity "Jesus, I do not believe you are God because the Quran says you're not God. And I do not understand your Godship because I believe you're just a servant like any other prophet. But, I want to seek the truth of who you are. Please if truly you are the Savior, reveal yourself to me as I go through this Bible."

I can assure my Muslim friends that if they pray that prayer above in all sincerity, they'll have Devine encounters with the Almighty God.

Another eye opening thread was opened by Advocatejare, Lukuluku69 was busy cursing instead of him to reexamine what he just read. The images of Baal's striking symbolism with Allah should be some foods for thought. But I'm surprised, the Muslim guy was cursing the person who was telling him the truth.

TenQ:

They are so prone to lying that it is impossible for them to do Islam properly without incorporating lies.

Unfortunately for them, it is easy to deflate a lie with appropriate questions.

This I have done: now they are afraid.

I asked them just three questions

Questions:
1. What was wrong with the Quran of Quran of Abu Bakr given to Hafsa to warrant editing by Zaid Zaid bin Thabit the second time?
2. There were four reciters of the Quran attested by Mohammed himself, why were none of them consulted in writing the Quran of Abu Bakr and later Uthman but instead Zaid Zaid bin Thabit was commissioned for the job?
3. Do you now agree that the first and second edition of the Arabic Quran were different?

FxMasterz:


Have gotten any answers yet? Abutwins and I have been discussing together here since morning. He did attempt any of the questions?

AbuTwins:


There are too many holes in his post!
Make una all feel high for some time.

I never get your time!

TenQ:

If the Quran of Abubakr was correct after its compilation, why was Zaid bin Thabit the second time looking for another missen verse.
Till today, we are still looking for the verses of breastfeeding adults ten times as it was part of the editing.


The first Time , Zaid said:
So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palme stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat at-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him.

The Second Time, Zaid said:
Zaid bin Thabit added, "A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuza`ima bin Thabit Al-Ansari.


The so called perfect preservation of the Quran: that was perfectly memorised by Muslims.

TenQ:
What was wrong with the Quran of Quran of Abu Bakr given to Hafsa to warrant editing by Zaid Zaid bin Thabit the second time?
Let it be known that four men from the Ansars memorised (collected) the complete Quran during the lifetime of Mohammed and taught others
Sahih al-Bukhari 3758
Narrated Masruq:
`Abdullah (bin Mas`ud) was mentioned before `Abdullah bin `Amr. The latter said, "That is a man I continue to love because I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, ' Learn the recitation of the Qur'an from (any of these) four persons: `Abdullah bin Masud, Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Ubai bin Ka`b, and Mu`adh bin Jabal." I do not remember whether he mentioned Ubai first or Mu`adh.


The Quran of Abubakar and Hafsa
1. The fear of permanently losing verses due to muslims fighting wars is said to have motivated the initial collection of the Qur'an under Caliph Abu Bakr.
Sahih al-Bukhari 4986
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailima). (I went to him) and found `Umar bin Al- Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "`Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Qur'an by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yamama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to `Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" `Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project." `Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which `Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palme stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat at-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is: 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (at-Tauba) (9.128-129). Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with `Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar.

2. Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with `Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar.

3. The third caliph Uthman was concerned because there were clear differences in the recitation of the Qur'an among the people. The differences were so great Uthman and his companions feared future dispute about the true Qur'an and its contents. So Uthman asked Hafsa for her copy so that a committee could write a single version of the Quran

Hafsas Quran was either not complete or it was edited and not just copied as can be observed in the hadith of Bukhari below

Sahih Bukhari Hadith 4987
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to `Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before." So `Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to `Uthman. `Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, `Abdullah bin AzZubair, Sa`id bin Al-As and `AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. `Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4988
Zaid bin Thabit added, "A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuza`ima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was):
'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Questions:
1. What was wrong with the Quran of Quran of Abu Bakr given to Hafsa to warrant editing by Zaid Zaid bin Thabit the second time?
2. There were four reciters of the Quran attested by Mohammed himself, why were none of them consulted in writing the Quran of Abu Bakr and later Uthman but instead Zaid Zaid bin Thabit was commissioned for the job?
3. Do you now agree that the first and second edition of the Arabic Quran were different?


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Rashduct4luv:


From my post here in 2019 https://www.nairaland.com/5569177/wrote-quraan-how-it-put

FxMasterz:


You would have done well to point out the holes. I'll believe the holes are imaginary until you point them out.

FxMasterz:


No one said Allah didn't give a guarantee for preserving the Quran. The question is: Was he able to fulfil that guarantee?

The answer can only be answered by history. The history of how the Quran was preserved before it was written down shows that Allah didn't fulfil that guarantee because:

1. The best crammer of the Quran was ignored during the compilation.

2. Many of the crammers claimed to have forgotten several verses.

3. One Zaid went searching for a missing verse which probably came into his mind. Can we ascertain the number of verses that were also omitted why never came into his mind, and the numerous others whose existence he knew nothing about.

4. I drew your attention to a verse that actually says categorically that many verses of the Quran has been lost, and that none of you should boast of having the complete quran. I think its found in one Surutu Itquan 3:72 or so.

AbuTwins:


Rashduct4luv don plug the holes above!

Let's wait for the rantings of your Oga at the top!

You sabi tell lies but you get oga!

FxMasterz:


Why is it that you Muslims become militant when one is pointing the truth to you?

No one is fighting you or your religion. We're here to help you remove the scales of deception and enable you see things the way they are for the eternal benefit of your soul.

I'm sure TenQ would respond accordingly.

Would you talk to me about Abraham building the foundation of news ka'aba? Let's dissect this lie also.

AbuTwins:


You don't read that why you'll remain ignorant!

How many scribes does the Prophet have during his lifetime? Do you think he had only one?
And what does cramming mean? "study intensively over a short period of time just before an examination" What exam is he expecting?
Who was left behind? Just mention his name?
Who claimed he forgot the verses? Give references?
All the Caliphs were memorisers of the Qur'an and many other top Sahabah. I can see the list above. But as usual you guys type twice as much as you read!

What does Surutu Itquan 3:72 mean?

Your name should be changed to ignoramus!

FxMasterz:


You already know what I meant. You've read the verse I referred to. I'm not a Muslim and I don't read Islamic texts.

All were stating were quoted directly from your books. A book clearly stated that most of the quaranic texts were lost and that you should never claim perfect knowledge of the Quran. Your crammers also claimed to have forgotten some verses? Where's the preservation?

Suyuti: Itqan part 3, page 72 to be precise.

AbuTwins:


Remove the planks in your face before you come here to remove mine!

I have been telling you to discuss the historicity of your Bible since morning haven't you been running from pillar to post?

You will keep hiding behind him your small oga god!

Olodo Surutu Itquan 3:72 Ignoramus with the holy Spirit!

AbuTwins:


Stop responding to me as you keep showing your ignorance. You shouldn't talk at all if you don't know anything!
How do you know what is and what is not from our books since you admit you are ignorant on Islamic text?

What does Suyuti: Itqan part 3, page 72 mean? Is it an Hadith or a Qur'an verse or words of Scholars?

Suyuti is an Islamic Scholar!
Al-Suyooti is al-Haafiz ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn al-Kamaal Abi Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn Saabiq al-Deen ibn al-Fakhr ibn ‘Uthmaan al-Suyooti. His nickname was Jalaal al-Deen and his patronymic was Abu’l-Fadl. He was born in 849 AH and grew up as an orphan. He memorized the Qur’aan before he was eight years old and was active in seeking knowledge from an early age. He travelled extensively in the pursuit of knowledge, and went to Syria, the Hijaaz, India and the Maghreb (north Africa). He wrote many books on various branches of knowledge, including Tafseer (Qur’aanic commentary), hadeeth, fiqh (jurisprudence), biographies and history. He worked hard in compiling material, and because he collected so much, his books contain saheeh (sound), da’eef (weak) and mawdoo’ (fabricated) reports, and both true and false material.

It was said that he wrote nearly 600 books. He died (may Allaah have mercy on him) in 911 AH. Aamin.

"Narrated By 'Umar bin Al-Khattab
I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle):

"I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)." Sahih 6:61:514

advocatejare:
They will come and cook up lies as usual that Uthman decided the standardize the Quran because it was causing confusion among the readers, but the confusion had existed when Muhammad was alive and he didn’t choose to stop it by standardizing.

The confusion was so bad that same verses of the Quran contained different things (of course we know that liars need good memories which Muhammad didn’t have, so he was just rolling out different verses and ascribing the same number to it)




As you can see, Muhammad didn't rebuke anyone reciting the Quran in any of the different dialects or ways it was revealed. Muhammad didn't standardize it into one dialect, Muhammad didn't say other dialect of revelation should be burnt. Why did Zaid burn the other manuscripts, why did he give you guys his own Quran which was different from the one Muhammad received?

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FxMasterz:


You were the one mentioned me when I called your attention to what my brother, TenQ wrote. Even though I'm not knowledgeable about your books, yet you couldn't give me any concrete answers to the questions asked.

Are you saying that Tafsiri was fabricated? What are the proofs?

FxMasterz:


Smiling.

The historicity of the Bible is summarized like this:

The Lord Jesus came as promised by the Father to present Himself as a lamb that takes away the sins of the world. After Jesus left, many wrote different accounts of what they knew about God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. Some wrote to make names for themselves, others wrote as they were moved by God to write, and some others were instructed by the disciples of Christ to write.

Christianity was brutally fought against. Successive Roman empires sought to stamp out the church but they couldn't. These groups held neither guns nor swords but the Word of God continued to spread. The emperors of Rome killed many, including the disciples of Christ but the Word of God was not killable.

Then came Constantine who through dishonesty wanted to make Christianity the religion of the state. God used him to lay the foundation for putting together the Bible as there's no one God cannot use. Before then, Christians were already using some 21 books as part of the New testament scriptures.

Satan fought the light of the Gospel, and through Roman Catholicism, Christianity was corrupted. But God raised men like John Calvin and Martin Luther and several others who were mightily used of God to restore the light of the Gospel as we have it today.

It's a pity that mohammed came in contact with the Bible during the dark ages when the satanic corruption was still at its peak, and only a few Christians really knew Jesus. It is still the same thing today. Fake pastors are very many but true pastors are few. Many Christians are mere church goers who do not know Jesus.

The preservation of the Truth as we have it today is a great miracle that attests to the power of God made available through Christ Jesus.

Would you now talk about Abraham and the ka'aba?

AbuTwins:


Whether any Qur'an is burnt or not the Qur'an that was transferred to all the provinces is one of the styles revealed to the Prophet.

Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam won't rebuke anyone as revelation was still coming and he was still around to correct any errors he observed!

When Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam is no more the Sahabahs had to be certain about what is being recited in all Muslim lands!

This is logical!