I decided to bring this here because I'm yet to receive a logical response to my query. All I'm getting is emotional outburst and insults.

Can someone explained to me the difference between these 2 belief system.
Why is one called idolatry and the other not called paganism.
Why can't both of them worship together under the same roof since they both venerate a stone?
Why should adherent of one of the faith travel to Mecca to lick a stone only to come back to Africa and mock someone pouring gin on a stone a pagan.

Pls no insult...just need clarification.

LegalWolf AntiChristian elhakiimed motayoayinde, drlateef, Lukuluku69 , AbuTwins , honesttalk21, Explore2xmore Ohyoudidn't, Qasim6.

Religious practices are basically the same at the core. Those terms you mentioned aren’t inherently bad (ideally). They are just terms that define certain religious beliefs. Peganism refers to any religion in which the followers believe that they are multiple gods and god hierarchies. Abrahamic religions don’t believe this, and that’s why they’re not referred to as peganism. On the other hand, idolatry is any religion in which a physical image, object or animal is worshipped as a deity. Again, this isn’t the case with Abrahamic religions, thus the reason they’re not referred to as idolatry.

The reason this terms have negative connotation is simply because they originated from the side of those who do not agree with the practices they define. As a pagan or idol worshiper, you aren’t obliged to refer to yourself using any of those terms (in fact, those terms don’t even exist in many non European languages). Even if you accept the nomenclature (just the way blacks internally accepted the N word), it doesn’t have to have to be perceived as negative amongst you (again, just like the N word isn’t offensive when used by a black person to refer to a fellow black person).

Finally, nothing really stops followers of non Abrahamic religions from having their own terms for Christians/Muslims. They probably do, but you wouldn’t know cause you grew up on the Abrahamic side of the divide, and that’s why you know and question their terms. One thing we can’t do, however, is force others to change their language because of us.

etrange:
Religious practices are basically the same at the core. Those terms you mentioned aren’t inherently bad (ideally). They are just terms that define certain religious beliefs. Peganism refers to any religion in which the followers believe that they are multiple gods and god hierarchies. Abrahamic religions don’t believe this, and that’s why they’re not referred to as peganism. On the other hand, idolatry is any religion in which a physical image, object or animal is worshipped as a deity. Again, this isn’t the case with Abrahamic religions, thus the reason they’re not referred to as idolatry.

The reason this terms have negative connotation is simply because they originated from the side of those who do not agree with the practices they define. As a pagan or idol worshiper, you aren’t obliged to refer to yourself using any of those terms (in fact, those terms don’t even exist in many non European languages). Even if you accept the nomenclature (just the way blacks internally accepted the N word), it doesn’t have to have to be perceived as negative amongst you (again, just like the N word isn’t offensive when used by a black person to refer to a fellow black person).

Finally, nothing really stops followers of non Abrahamic religions from having their own terms for Christians/Muslims. They probably do, but you wouldn’t know cause you grew up on the Abrahamic side of the divide, and that’s why you know and question their terms. One thing we can’t do, however, is force others to change their language because of us.

To my understanding, paganism mean religions outside of the main ones and possibly could refer to animist religions.
.
I don't think traditionalists consider idols deity and most don't worship them.
They idols are mostly symbolic representation of the unseen deity but they are not deity themselves.

That's why I'm asking why those who kiss a stone for symbolic reason accuse traditionalist as idolaters?

SIRTee15:


To my understanding, paganism mean religions outside of the main ones and possibly could refer to animist religions.
.
I don't think traditionalists consider idols deity and most don't worship them.
They idols are mostly symbolic representation of the unseen deity but they are not deity themselves.

That's why I'm asking why those who kiss a stone for symbolic reason accuse traditionalist as idolaters?

It’s a matter of supremacist thinking. The hallmark of monotheism is an inherent bigotry about other people’s beliefs, which you can see in all the abrahamic religions. They practice this delusional false dichotomy to otherize or alienate people that are not part of their group. e.g. Jews and gentiles or jews and goyim, Christians and pagans.

The idea spread through trade and conversion of various leaders to either Islam or Christianity who in turn decreed what their people believed. Overtime the indigenous ideas are disparaged, the poor and people at the fringes of society become enamored with the new religion, the rich and powerful continue to use the religion as a tool of control, and paganism becomes a bad idea amongst the people. Meanwhile, the new religion is just as ridiculous as the old religion.

If the ruse is successful, the indigenous people even start to repeat the lies and get stuck in an inferior position.

So to those people, this King is a “pagan” for his actions with the rock, but the Emir is not a pagan for throwing pebbles at a pillar in Mecca, the Pope is not pagan for believing that wine and crackers turn into the blood and body of Jesus, the Jew is not a pagan for talking to a wall, and the king of England is not a pagan even though there is a “sacred” stone under his throne.

For more information for how the state and church worked together during colonialism, read about the actions of Jesuits and Iberian kingdoms in Feudal Japan. Luckily for the Japanese, they had intelligent leaders who saw the danger in allowing Christian nonsense to infiltrate their society.

At least they are not a death cult like Christianity.

SIRTee15:


To my understanding, paganism mean religions outside of the main ones and possibly could refer to animist religions.
.
I don't think traditionalists consider idols deity and most don't worship them.
They idols are mostly symbolic representation of the unseen deity but they are not deity themselves.

That's why I'm asking why those who kiss a stone for symbolic reason accuse traditionalist as idolaters?

While the definitions I gave is in line with Christian theology, the general definition of paganism (outside the prism of the Abrahamic religions) is the belief in any alternative god other than the god or gods of the “mainstream” religions. Similarly, idolatry is the worship of idols. It’s important to stress that idols here mustn’t be a physical object, it could also be any god other than the god of the speaker. This is regardless of the presence or absence of symbolic physical objects.

Now, going by these definitions, a Christian is right to call a traditionalist an idol worshiper (idol here meaning an alternative god) just as much as the traditionalist has the right to call a Christian an idol worshiper. Both are right because both believe their own god is the real god and the other’s god is an idol. However, the expressions “idolatry” and “idol worshipper” stem from Judaism. A traditionalist may have an entirely different expression for referring to people who don’t believe their gods. For example, Muslims might call Christian infidels, but Christians don’t ask why they’re being accused cause they understand it’s just a matter of point-of-view.

So you might argue that they both use symbols, but when you consider the fact that what a Christian refers to as an idol isn’t just the physical object but also the god represented by the object, then you see why they call those people idol worshippers. Like I said earlier, the traditionalists don’t have to accept that name but they also can’t cry foul cause no one is complaining about whatever name they choose to call those who don’t believe in their gods. However, to be fair, originators of these terms (Judaists, Christians and Muslims) have the power of numbers and that’s why, today, these terms have become almost synonymous with other religious beliefs other than these three. At the end, it’s all a matter of POV. That’s why we must put humanity above all.

SIRTee15:
I decided to bring this here because I'm yet to receive a logical response to my query. All I'm getting is emotional outburst and insults.

Can someone explained to me the difference between these 2 belief system.
Why is one called idolatry and the other not called paganism.
Why can't both of them worship together under the same roof since they both venerate a stone?
Why should adherent of one of the faith travel to Mecca to lick a stone only to come back to Africa and mock someone pouring gin on a stone a pagan.

Pls no insult...just need clarification.

LegalWolf AntiChristian elhakiimed motayoayinde, drlateef, Lukuluku69 , AbuTwins , honesttalk21, Explore2xmore Ohyoudidn't, Qasim6.

When traditional adherents pour libation it is clearly an offering to the deity or spirit.

This is clearly different from the act of touching or kissing the black stone in Mecca as all acts of worship for a Muslim is towards Allah and nothing else.

The significance of the black stone lies in its connection to Prophet Muhammad pbuh and the pilgrim acts associated with the Kaaba rather than being an object of worship itself.

The Kaaba constitutes a point all Muslims face in unity of faith while praying to Allah

honesttalk21:


When traditional adherents pour libation it is clearly an offering to the deity or spirit.

This is clearly different from the act of touching or kissing the black stone in Mecca as all acts of worship for a Muslim is towards Allah and nothing else.

The significance of the black stone lies in its connection to Prophet Muhammad pbuh and the pilgrim acts associated with the Kaaba rather than being an object of worship itself.

The Kaaba constitutes a point all Muslims face in unity of faith while praying to Allah

1. If U discuss with traditionalists they will clearly tell I they don't honour or worship the stone. Its simply a symbolic representation of their religious practice. That the stone is lost will in no way hinder the worship of their deity.

2. So are U saying Muslims do not venerate the black stone. I know some Muslims believe it has the power to forgive sin according to the hadiths.

3. I find it odd that Muslims will travel to Mecca for pilgrimage to spend quality time with Allah, then during the worship of Allah would now share that moment with a stone. Especially if this stone is nothing at all.
I would have understand if it forgives sin, then we can say it shares attributes with Allah thus may share time with Allah too...
But if U insist the stone is nothing....then I don't understand why pilgrims will be venerating a stone at a time he should be spending with Allah.

etrange:


While the definitions I gave is in line with Christian theology, the general definition of paganism (outside the prism of the Abrahamic religions) is the belief in any alternative god other than the god or gods of the “mainstream” religions. Similarly, idolatry is the worship of idols. It’s important to stress that idols here mustn’t be a physical object, it could also be any god other than the god of the speaker. This is regardless of the presence or absence of symbolic physical objects.

Now, going by these definitions, a Christian is right to call a traditionalist an idol worshiper (idol here meaning an alternative god) just as much as the traditionalist has the right to call a Christian an idol worshiper. Both are right because both believe their own god is the real god and the other’s god is an idol. However, the expressions “idolatry” and “idol worshipper” stem from Judaism. A traditionalist may have an entirely different expression for referring to people who don’t believe their gods. For example, Muslims might call Christian infidels, but Christians don’t ask why they’re being accused cause they understand it’s just a matter of point-of-view.

So you might argue that they both use symbols, but when you consider the fact that what a Christian refers to as an idol isn’t just the physical object but also the god represented by the object, then you see why they call those people idol worshippers. Like I said earlier, the traditionalists don’t have to accept that name but they also can’t cry foul cause no one is complaining about whatever name they choose to call those who don’t believe in their gods. However, to be fair, originators of these terms (Judaists, Christians and Muslims) have the power of numbers and that’s why, today, these terms have become almost synonymous with other religious beliefs other than these three. At the end, it’s all a matter of POV. That’s why we must put humanity above all.

Christian definition of idolatry stem from the clear definition given in the bible which is associating graven image to a deity.
Islam which is another Abrahamic religion latched on to this definition and probably expanded it, but it equally agreed associating graven image to a deity is idolatry.
Traditionalist would not have an expression for idolatry because worshiping and venerating idols is a core part for their religion. They do not see it as wrong.

One would expect such clear definition of idolatry to reflect in the religious practice of those who profess the definition, but alas that is not the case.

This is why objective evidence is important when we define terminologies otherwise people would just be shifting goalpost to suit themselves.

Just like U said, the whole thing has become a matter of perspective and not objectiveness. That's why someone can travel to Mecca to kiss a stone, rationalise it and insist it's not idolatry; but will hold a traditionalist to the jugular, accuse him of idolatry and reject whatever explanation the later gives

SIRTee15:


1. If U discuss with traditionalists they will clearly tell I they don't honour or worship the stone. Its simply a symbolic representation of their religious practice. That the stone is lost will in no way hinder the worship of their deity.

2. So are U saying Muslims do not venerate the black stone. I know some Muslims believe it has the power to forgive sin according to the hadiths.

3. I find it odd that Muslims will travel to Mecca for pilgrimage to spend quality time with Allah, then during the worship of Allah would now share that moment with a stone. Especially if this stone is nothing at all.
I would have understand if it forgives sin, then we can say it shares attributes with Allah thus may share time with Allah too...
But if U insist the stone is nothing....then I don't understand why pilgrims will be venerating a stone at a time he should be spending with Allah.

I have not discussed with the traditionalist but know they say when they poor libation that that is for the gods. Definitely showing a Polytheist belief very different from Islam.

Muslims do not attach divine power to the stone. As `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said: You’re just a stone that does not benefit or harm anyone, and if I hadn’t seen the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) kissing you, I would have not done so.

So, we are simply touching or kissing the Black Stone in order to honor us with association the practice of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. It does not imply any reverence whatsoever.

In any case the black stone isn't mentioned in the Quran or clearly regarded as having 'godly' powers. All worship is for Allah alone who alone bestows and forgives.


Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Verily, I am commanded to worship Allâh (Alone) by obeying Him and doing religious deeds sincerely for Allâh's sake only and not to show off, and not to set up rivals with Him in worship;

Allah solely forgives sins.
39:14 Say, "Allah [alone] do I worship, sincere to Him in my religion

Hajj is one of the greatest pillars of Islam if the Muslim has the means to perform this for the sake of worshipping Allah and has numerous benefits including forgiveness of sin by Allah and no other

Some ignorant people think, that the purpose of touching and kissing the black stone is to seek blessing and forgiveness from it, there is no basis for that, so it is false." (Majmu‘ Fatawa wa Rasa’il Ash-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymin 2/318-319)

As regard the Black stone, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed it, and we followed him in doing so. If a person is unable to kiss it he should touch it with his hand or with something, and then kiss that thing. If he is unable to do that he should point to it with his hand and say Allaahu akbar.[/b]Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah erases sins.

Another difference is that the Black Stone was sent down by Allah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

[b]It's not like we got a stone and placed it there for that purpose! The stone have no power of itself. It is proven that the Amir al-Mumineen ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said, when he kissed the Black Stone "I know that you are a stone and have no power to harm or benefit; were it not that I saw the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you".

Can an idolator say the above statement to the idol he worships? No!

And finally there's a concept of intention in Islam! You must intend an action before doing it. A man who prostrates for a human may be worshipping or greeting such person! The intention is in the heart! No Muslim should have the intention of worshipping anything apart from Allah! And as we said the stone is from Allah and Allah is above the seven heavens!

honesttalk21:


I have not discussed with the traditionalist but know they say when they poor libation that that is for the gods. Definitely showing a Polytheist belief very different from Islam.

Libation is for the god not for the stone. Just like when U bow before kabba U worshipping Allah and not the kabba.

honesttalk21:

Muslims do not attach divine power to the stone. As `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said: You’re just a stone that does not benefit or harm anyone, and if I hadn’t seen the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) kissing you, I would have not done so.

Yes U do. U may deny the hadiths for all U like but your authentic sahih confirmed the stone can forgive sin.
Its says it was once white but became black due to people's sins. How can an ordinary stone archive that? Pls explain.

Also the stone will testify against insincere Muslims on judgement day when he will have eyes and mouth. How can the stone talk of it has no divine powers.
Pls explain.

honesttalk21:

So, we are simply touching or kissing the Black Stone in order to honor us with association the practice of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. It does not imply any reverence whatsoever.

This doesn't make sense. Why should U do something because Muhammed did it, do U worship Muhammed or God.
Muhammed married a 6yr old girl and raided caravans, such a actions will be met with condemnation in today's world even amongst Muslims if anyone tried to copy it.
U dont know why Muhammed kissed the black stone so copying it blinding without any clear authorisation from Allah is blind faith.

honesttalk21:

In any case the black stone isn't mentioned in the Quran or clearly regarded as having 'godly' powers. All worship is for Allah alone who alone bestows and forgives.

Exactly so why venerate it at a time meant only to worship Allah. That's what makes it all suspicious.
Sharing time solely meant for Allah with a stone is paganism.

honesttalk21:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Verily, I am commanded to worship Allâh (Alone) by obeying Him and doing religious deeds sincerely for Allâh's sake only and not to show off, and not to set up rivals with Him in worship;

Allah solely forgives sins.
39:14 Say, "Allah [alone] do I worship, sincere to Him in my religion

I brought U hadith where it says the stone forgives sin but U rejected it without because U hated the answer.
I will bring it here again...

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is[b] an atonement for sins[/b].”
If U reject above hadith then explain why the black stone is said to have turned from white to black because of sin of people kissing it.

honesttalk21:

Hajj is one of the greatest pillars of Islam if the Muslim has the means to perform this for the sake of worshipping Allah and has numerous benefits including forgiveness of sin by Allah and no other

Well this is your own opinion. Most Muslims believe the stone does forgive sin.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902

AbuTwins:
As regard the Black stone, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed it, and we followed him in doing so. If a person is unable to kiss it he should touch it with his hand or with something, and then kiss that thing. If he is unable to do that he should point to it with his hand and say [b]Allaahu akbar.[/b]Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah erases sins.

At least U are honest enough to admit the stone can remove sins unlike your friend denying the truth up and down.
Now what power did Allah give this black stone that empowers it to remove sin.
So if God puts same power in a man and authorise him to remove sin, how's that shirk.

AbuTwins:

Another difference is that the Black Stone was sent down by Allah to this earth from Paradise.



It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

Well there's no evidence for that except in your books.
Oral tradition also said obatala came down from heaven with a sacred stone.
So if the traditionalist venerate a sacred stone they believe came from heaven, how does that make them pagan

AbuTwins:

It's not like we got a stone and placed it there for that purpose! The stone have no power of itself. It is proven that the Amir al-Mumineen ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said, when he kissed the Black Stone "I know that you are a stone and have no power to harm or benefit; were it not that I saw the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you".

So where does the stone gets the power to turn from white to black due to people's sin?
If it has no power, how is the stone able to pull such feat because above can't be natural.
Ordinary stone don't turn black because people kiss it.

AbuTwins:

Can an idolator say the above statement to the idol he worships? No!

Yes they can. Talk to traditionalist and understand their religion. Stop making things up.
Speak to orisa and kingSango here on nairaland, let them enlighten U.
Traditionalist don't worship images or regard them as deity. They are purely symbols they respect just as U respect the black stone.

AbuTwins:

And finally there's a concept of intention in Islam! You must intend an action before doing it. A man who prostrates for a human may be worshipping or greeting such person! The intention is in the heart! No Muslim should have the intention of worshipping anything apart from Allah! And as we said the stone is from Allah and Allah is above the seven heavens!

So if I carry the images of Allah's 3 daughters and start bowing to down but in my heart I'm bowing to Allah.
Is that acceptable.
If my intention is to worship Allah when bowing to 3 daughters of Allah. Will my worship be accepted?

SIRTee15:

Libation is for the god not for the stone. Just like when U bow before kabba U worshipping Allah and not the kabba.


Yes U do. U may deny the hadiths for all U like but your authentic sahih confirmed the stone can forgive sin.
Its says it was once white but became black due to people's sins. How can an ordinary stone archive that? Pls explain.

Also the stone will testify against insincere Muslims on judgement day when he will have eyes and mouth. How can the stone talk of it has no divine powers.
Pls explain.


This doesn't make sense. Why should U do something because Muhammed did it, do U worship Muhammed or God.
Muhammed married a 6yr old girl and raided caravans, such a actions will be met with condemnation in today's world even amongst Muslims if anyone tried to copy it.
U dont know why Muhammed kissed the black stone so copying it blinding without any clear authorisation from Allah is blind faith.

Exactly so why venerate it at a time meant only to worship Allah. That's what makes it all suspicious.
Sharing time solely meant for Allah with a stone is paganism.


I brought U hadith where it says the stone forgives sin but U rejected it without because U hated the answer.
I will bring it here again...

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is[b] an atonement for sins[/b].”
If U reject above hadith then explain why the black stone is said to have turned from white to black because of sin of people kissing it.



Well this is your own opinion. Most Muslims believe the stone does forgive sin.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902

Libation of the Polytheists is for gods (plural/polytheism) not God. You can insist for your satisfaction that the aforementioned isn't true. Ask your traditionalist friends or acquaintances if other gods exist as well as the ones they pour libation for?

Have you bothered to study the the chain of transmission and the text of hadith that say the black stone grants forgiveness? Please provide the text of the prayer made to the black stone asking it for forgiveness and a report of its response otherwise stop repeating what is untruth.

Do you not see how illogical your claim of a black stone being white then turned black due to sins is? When you paint your house with high quality paint does it not darken over years of exposure to natural element? I thought you are a professional of advanced scientific learning? Why is it not called the once white but blackened stone or any other such variant? Give statistically representative evidence of people that saw it when it was white. I figure you have another repugnant untruthful response to this.


Why prophet Muhammad kissed the stone has been explained before. His forefather's placed it after it came to earth. Do you not know how certain treasure passed from generation to generation are valued? When footballers win even the world cup don't they kiss it despite replicas being made for tournaments? This stone is the same over several millennia.

How is Allah's time shared? It seems you don't know all the rights of hajj are in worship of Allah.

Just noticed you repeat the usual slander of the age of Aisha that is definitely a lie. Scrutiny of this by scholars do not agree with this.
https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-study-sheds-light-on-muhammad-underage-wife-aisha/#:~:text=According%20to%20Little%2C%20the%20claim,of%20Aisha%20against%20Shiite%20detractors.


https://www.academia.edu/37720516/A_Hadith_Scholar_Presents_New_Evidence_that_Aisha_was_Near_18_the_Day_of_Her_Marriage_to_the_Prophet_Muhammad?email_work_card=title

It is an over flogged case and has no direct relation with your originally asked question or do you now equate the prophet's marriage to the primary acts of worshipping Allah?

I imagine this later inclusion is a ploy for further unending discussion.

AbuTwins:
As regard the Black stone, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed it, and we followed him in doing so. If a person is unable to kiss it he should touch it with his hand or with something, and then kiss that thing. If he is unable to do that he should point to it with his hand and say [b]Allaahu akbar.[/b]Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah erases sins.

Bro. Are you aware that this specific narration is not found in the most authentic collections of Hadith such as Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim. Therefore, its authenticity may be questioned.

honesttalk21:


Bro. Are you aware that this specific narration is not found in the most authentic collections of Hadith such as Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim. Therefore, its authenticity may be questioned.

Which one sir?

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allah (may Allah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah]. (Narrated by Muslim, 1218).

AbuTwins:


Which one sir?

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allah (may Allah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah]. (Narrated by Muslim, 1218).

It is neither of these but this that the OP places emphasis on.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an atonement for sins .

honesttalk21:


It is neither of these but this that the OP places emphasis on.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an atonement for sins .

It was Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him.

SIRTee15:

At least U are honest enough to admit the stone can remove sins unlike your friend denying the truth up and down.
Now what power did Allah give this black stone that empowers it to remove sin.
So if God puts same power in a man and authorise him to remove sin, how's that shirk.

This is contrary to what i said. Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah erases sins. You should ask Allah those questions! Allah forgives sins himself. The means could be touching the black stone, performing a successful Hajj, prayer for forgiveness from a righteous Muslim, asking for forgiveness of sins yourself, etc. The belief that anyone could forgive sin apart from Allah is Kufr.

Allah says what means:
And those who, when they have committed Fahishah (illegal sexual intercourse etc.) or wronged themselves with evil, remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their sins; - and none can forgive sins but Allah - And do not persist in what (wrong) they have done, while they know.

Well there's no evidence for that except in your books.
Oral tradition also said obatala came down from heaven with a sacred stone.
So if the traditionalist venerate a sacred stone they believe came from heaven, how does that make them pagan

Just as there are so many instances where the evidence stem from your own Bible! Obatala, Oduduwa, Sango and other Yoruba stories are folklores, myths and legends. Whoever takes those seriously need a brain check! Oduduwa came down on a chain with palm kernel and a chicken, etc. Then they have to show us their scriptures! Who are their Prophets? What are their beliefs?

So where does the stone gets the power to turn from white to black due to people's sin?
If it has no power, how is the stone able to pull such feat because above can't be natural.
Ordinary stone don't turn black because people kiss it.

You should ask Allah when you meet Him. Matters of the unseen are not answered by humans!

Yes they can. Talk to traditionalist and understand their religion. Stop making things up.
Speak to orisa and kingSango here on nairaland, let them enlighten U.
Traditionalist don't worship images or regard them as deity. They are purely symbols they respect just as U respect the black stone.

So why do they give them food? Offer them sacrifice by spilling blood on them, etc?

So if I carry the images of Allah's 3 daughters and start bowing to down but in my heart I'm bowing to Allah.
Is that acceptable.
If my intention is to worship Allah when bowing to 3 daughters of Allah. Will my worship be accepted?

Where did Allah specifically and contextually say He has daughters? Can't you guys do without telling lies?

Qur'an 53:19-23
Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs)
And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?
Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
That indeed is a division most unfair!
They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord!

AbuTwins:


It was Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him.

Yes An-Nassai too has similar however Hasan authenticity refers to a level of reliability in hadith classification that falls between sahih and da’if. Hasan hadiths are considered acceptable for use in deriving Islamic rulings, though they are not as strong as sahih hadiths.

And as you rightly say Allah alone is the one who grants forgiveness.

In the context of Hajj and Umrah rituals, touching the Black Stone and the south western part of the Kaaba is considered a virtuous act and part of the pilgrimage rites. While the act of touching these sacred points is recommended and carries spiritual significance, it is important to understand that forgiveness of sins ultimately comes from sincere repentance, seeking forgiveness from Allah, and performing good deeds.

Therefore, while the act of touching the Black Stone and south western part of the Kaaba is considered virtuous and may have spiritual benefits, true forgiveness of sins is attained through sincere repentance, seeking Allah's forgiveness, and striving to lead a righteous life in accordance with Islamic teachings.


The black stone is not holy in Islam. It was no more than an asteroid sent by GOD Almighty to determine the location of where the Kaaba to be built by Abraham and Ishmael, peace be upon them. And today, it is placed in one of the Kaaba's corners to mark the start and finish of the 7 circumambulations (tawaaf) around the Kaaba.

It was the pagans who plagiarized Islam's practices, not the other way around.

honesttalk21:


Libation of the Polytheists is for gods (plural/polytheism) not God. You can insist for your satisfaction that the aforementioned isn't true. Ask your traditionalist friends or acquaintances if other gods exist as well as the ones they pour libation for?

This is not about monotheism v polytheism. This thread is about associating a graven image with your deity. Can we call it idolatry when we venerate a stone during worship of your god

honesttalk21:


Have you bothered to study the the chain of transmission and the text of hadith that say the black stone grants forgiveness? Please provide the text of the prayer made to the black stone asking it for forgiveness and a report of its response otherwise stop repeating what is untruth.

I never said u pray to the stone. I wrote u Muslims kiss or touch the stone as atonement of sin- this is found in your literature books.
Let me ask u a question, do u believe the Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

Is this not evidence that the black stone has significant spiritual influence and connotation.

honesttalk21:


Do you not see how illogical your claim of a black stone being white then turned black due to sins is? When you paint your house with high quality paint does it not darken over years of exposure to natural element? I thought you are a professional of advanced scientific learning? Why is it not called the once white but blackened stone or any other such variant? Give statistically representative evidence of people that saw it when it was white. I figure you have another repugnant untruthful response to this.

Look at this guy, what's my business in what's written in your books. Did I tell u I believe the nonsense? It's your hadiths that said the stone turned from white to black because people were touching it. If u question the absurdity, u should take it up with your muslim scholars and not me.
I don't consider the black stone anything more than a pagan stone that was elevated to spiritual significance by Muhammed for whatever reason. The Black Stone was held in reverence well before Islam and was a site of pilgrimage of Nabataeans who visited the shrine once a year to perform their pilgrimage. The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, bowing, worshiping and praying to such sacred objects. However the practice is condemned in the Tanakh as idolatrous and was the subject of prophetic rebuke.
The meteorite-origin theory of the Black Stone is derived from similar stories of sacred stones such as the one placed and worshipped in the Greek Temple of Artemis.

honesttalk21:


Why prophet Muhammad kissed the stone has been explained before. His forefather's placed it after it came to earth. Do you not know how certain treasure passed from generation to generation are valued? When footballers win even the world cup don't they kiss it despite replicas being made for tournaments? This stone is the same over several millennia.

Do footballers kiss the world cup trophy when they pray to Allah. Wont the muslim world be enraged if a muslim footballer place the trophy in front of him while doing his daily prayer and start kissing it.
Do footballers kiss the cup with hope of reward in heaven? abeg your comparison makes no sense. Try harder.

honesttalk21:


How is Allah's time shared? It seems you don't know all the rights of hajj are in worship of Allah.

hajj is a period dedicated to Allah with intention of drawing close to him. Any act done during this time is considered spiritually significant otherwise u wont do it.

honesttalk21:

Just noticed you repeat the usual slander of the age of Aisha that is definitely a lie. Scrutiny of this by scholars do not agree with this.
https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-study-sheds-light-on-muhammad-underage-wife-aisha/#:~:text=According%20to%20Little%2C%20the%20claim,of%20Aisha%20against%20Shiite%20detractors.


https://www.academia.edu/37720516/A_Hadith_Scholar_Presents_New_Evidence_that_Aisha_was_Near_18_the_Day_of_Her_Marriage_to_the_Prophet_Muhammad?email_work_card=title

It's interesting that Aisha's age was never an issue amongst both early christians apologetics and muslims scholars.
None of your medevial scholars found it odd that muhammed married a 6 year old despite the Aisha's age of marriage was well known and documented in Islamic literatures. In the Islamic world, the young age of her marriage did not draw any significant discourse apart from associating her young age as affirmation of her virginity and subsequent religious purity. Her age did not interest later Muslim scholars either, and went unremarked-upon even by medieval and early-modern Christian polemicists.
It wasn't until the 19th century when westerners arrogate to themselves superiority moral complex and began to question child marriage, thus putting light on Muhammed's marriage with Aisha that her age became controversial.

So why all of a sudden modern Islamic scholars now have an issue with Aisha's age and are revising her age of marriage by pushing it forward, bringing up all forms of weak evidence when clear statements clearly shows she was a very young child. Is it because they now realised marrying a 6 year old girl is rightfully paedophilia and morally wrong.

Narrated `Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)
Sahih al-Bukhari 6130
What adult woman and her friends play with dolls for heaven's sake
Muslims should learn to call what is evil as evil, Muhammed is no saint!!!

honesttalk21:

It is an over flogged case and has no direct relation with your originally asked question or do you now equate the prophet's marriage to the primary acts of worshipping Allah?

I referenced it as example of how not to follow Muhammed, u are the one that made a molehill out of it.

honesttalk21:

I imagine this later inclusion is a ploy for further unending discussion.

Drop Aisha's marriage and answer my question. what is the spiritual significance of the black stone. why is it venerated?

honesttalk21:

In the context of Hajj and Umrah rituals, touching the Black Stone and the south western part of the Kaaba is considered a virtuous act and part of the pilgrimage rites. While the act of touching these sacred points is recommended and carries spiritual significance, it is important to understand that forgiveness of sins ultimately comes from sincere repentance, seeking forgiveness from Allah, and performing good deeds.

Good u now admit the black stone carries spiritual significance. Now tell me what are these spiritual significance?

honesttalk21:

Therefore, while the act of touching the Black Stone and south western part of the Kaaba is considered virtuous and may have spiritual benefits, true forgiveness of sins is attained through sincere repentance, seeking Allah's forgiveness, and striving to lead a righteous life in accordance with Islamic teachings.

But Allah can forgive sin through the stone right? I will presume the stone is a medium through which Allah forgives sin.
So Allah has medium through which he forgives sin?
Do u think blood is one of them?

honesttalk21:

The black stone is not holy in Islam. It was no more than an asteroid sent by GOD Almighty to determine the location of where the Kaaba to be built by Abraham and Ishmael, peace be upon them. And today, it is placed in one of the Kaaba's corners to mark the start and finish of the 7 circumambulations (tawaaf) around the Kaaba.

We all know it's not holy, that's why we wonder why Muslims revere it. It once belonged to pagans so it cannot be holy.

honesttalk21:

It was the pagans who plagiarized Islam's practices, not the other way around.

The black stone had been worshipped for years before muhammed appeared on scene. kissing and circumbulating the stone wasn't novel to islam. They were pagan practice introduced into islam.
Pls dont mention Abraham because there's no pre-islamic source that says anything about Abraham having anything to do with the stone or building the kabba.

AbuTwins:


This is contrary to what i said. Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah erases sins. You should ask Allah those questions! Allah forgives sins himself. The means could be touching the black stone, performing a successful Hajj, prayer for forgiveness from a righteous Muslim, asking for forgiveness of sins yourself, etc. The belief that anyone could forgive sin apart from Allah is Kufr.

Guy we already established Allah forgives sin when u kiss or touch the stone- this depicts spiritual significance. That means the stone is a medium through which Allah forgives sin.

Don't tell me ask Allah, I don't believe in him. what we doing here is applying logic to your belief and checking its consistence.
so if Allah can forgive sin via a stone, what then is the problem if Allah decides to forgive sin through blood.

AbuTwins:

Just as there are so many instances where the evidence stem from your own Bible! Obatala, Oduduwa, Sango and other Yoruba stories are folklores, myths and legends. Whoever takes those seriously need a brain check! Oduduwa came down on a chain with palm kernel and a chicken, etc. Then they have to show us their scriptures! Who are their Prophets? What are their beliefs?

Mr Man don't go there.....
Traditionalist have sound oral tradition which is as valid as written scriptures, they also wrote down things in their own way. Don't be brainwashed by this eurocentric falsehood that you forefathers didn't write anything down.

For example, Orunmila (the most important prophet in Yoruba religion) claimed he was sent from heaven by the supreme deity with a message to mankind necessary for life and guidance. Orunmila codified his message in a literary corpus called odu ifa and this is what the Yorubas called oracle which u consult if you follow the religion.

Again talk to traditionalist and learn their belief. stop all this nairaland gist that someone fell down from the sky and broke his head kind of talk.

as per legends and myths, I will say those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Your koran has loads of folklores, legends and myths fables that makes the book a joke to say its from God.

AbuTwins:

You should ask Allah when you meet Him. Matters of the unseen are not answered by humans!

I dont need to ask any Allah to know your belief is inconsistent and illogical. If u telling me it's ok for Allah to atone for sin via a stone in Islam then why is it wrong for traditionalist to offer gin to their deity via their own sacred stones.
It's either both practices are to be considered IDOLATRY or the concept should be abandoned all together for both.
simple

AbuTwins:

So why do they give them food? Offer them sacrifice by spilling blood on them, etc?

no deity receives food from any body. do u give Allah food when u sacrifice ram on sallah day, no be una dey chop am. OR have u seen any spirit collect food chop?
The same way u sacrifice ram to your Allah is the same way they sacrifice to their deity. It's symbolic.
once again learn the difference btw occultism and religion.

AbuTwins:

Where did Allah specifically and contextually say He has daughters? Can't you guys do without telling lies?

read the satanic verses.
surah 53:19-20 as delivered by satan unto Muhammed's tongue

"Have you seen al-Lāt and al-'Uzzā and Manāt, the third, the other?, these are the high-flying cranes and their intercession is to be hoped for.'

All early Islamic sources including Al Tabari confirmed Muhammed uttered this verse and the satanic verse was universally accepted as a true event. Then Muhammed was illustrated as a prophet with his own struggles. Na later in the era of hadith collections and subsequent orthodoxy that Muhammed became an infallible prophet.

SIRTee15:

Guy we already established Allah forgives sin when u kiss or touch the stone- this depicts spiritual significance. That means the stone is a medium through which Allah forgives sin.

Yeah a medium! The stone can't forgive sins on its own!

Don't tell me ask Allah, I don't believe in him. what we doing here is applying logic to your belief and checking its consistence.
so if Allah can forgive sin via a stone, what then is the problem if Allah decides to forgive sin through blood.

Yeah, we disbelieve in your own form of Jesus and God too!
Allah forgives sins in the ways stated in the Qur'an and Sunnah! Human blood or son of God's blood sacrifice is not included!

Mr Man don't go there.....
Traditionalist have sound oral tradition which is as valid as written scriptures, they also wrote down things in their own way. Don't be brainwashed by this eurocentric falsehood that you forefathers didn't write anything down.

For example, Orunmila (the most important prophet in Yoruba religion) claimed he was sent from heaven by the supreme deity with a message to mankind necessary for life and guidance. Orunmila codified his message in a literary corpus called odu ifa and this is what the Yorubas called oracle which u consult if you follow the religion.

Again talk to traditionalist and learn their belief. stop all this nairaland gist that someone fell down from the sky and broke his head kind of talk.

as per legends and myths, I will say those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Your koran has loads of folklores, legends and myths fables that makes the book a joke to say its from God.

If they have sound oral traditions then why are you and your families not following them? I don't know why you argue with through your nose telling me what you really don't believe in.

As for the Qur'an not (koran as fools call it) all the stories therein are authentic!

I dont need to ask any Allah to know your belief is inconsistent and illogical. If u telling me it's ok for Allah to atone for sin via a stone in Islam then why is it wrong for traditionalist to offer gin to their deity via their own sacred stones.
It's either both practices are to be considered IDOLATRY or the concept should be abandoned all together for both.
simple

Offering blood sacrifice to idols like Ogun, etc is similar to vicarious atonement in Christianity! Blood is important for salvation! Not in Islam. That's why you are preaching Orunmila above! Alhamdulillah we don't offer any food to anyone! Allah is As-Samad! He does not eat nor drink unlike some God that drinks tea without permission! What is Idolatry is your vicarious atonement where God did kill his son as a lamb for to save others!

no deity receives food from any body. do u give Allah food when u sacrifice ram on sallah day, no be una dey chop am. OR have u seen any spirit collect food chop?
The same way u sacrifice ram to your Allah is the same way they sacrifice to their deity. It's symbolic.
once again learn the difference btw occultism and religion.

This is a lie! Blood is spilled on the deities! Food Sacrifices are placed at the road junctions for the gods! Why do you like telling brazen lies like this? We kill ram as Abraham did kill his. Why not kill your son too to commemorate what God did for Jesus?

read the satanic verses.
surah 53:19-20 as delivered by satan unto Muhammed's tongue

"Have you seen al-Lāt and al-'Uzzā and Manāt, the third, the other?, these are the high-flying cranes and their intercession is to be hoped for.'

All early Islamic sources including Al Tabari confirmed Muhammed uttered this verse and the satanic verse was universally accepted as a true event. Then Muhammed was illustrated as a prophet with his own struggles. Na later in the era of hadith collections and subsequent orthodoxy that Muhammed became an infallible prophet.

After giving you the context of this verses you still came here to repeat the same thing again?
You are far from truth and reason! I am not surprised to see this. Many Holy spirit filled Christians are like this!

Qur'an 53:19-23
Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs)
And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?
Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
That indeed is a division most unfair!
They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord!

SIRTee15:

Good u now admit the black stone carries spiritual significance. Now tell me what are these spiritual significance?



But Allah can forgive sin through the stone right? I will presume the stone is a medium through which Allah forgives sin.
So Allah has medium through which he forgives sin?
Do u think blood is one of them?



We all know it's not holy, that's why we wonder why Muslims revere it. It once belonged to pagans so it cannot be holy.



The black stone had been worshipped for years before muhammed appeared on scene. kissing and circumbulating the stone wasn't novel to islam. They were pagan practice introduced into islam.
Pls dont mention Abraham because there's no pre-islamic source that says anything about muhammed having anything to do with the stone or building the kabba.

A simple question you should kindly answer is do prayers and any acts of worship have spiritual importance?

When you sincerely perform hajj (pilgrimage) or Umrah for the sake of Allah all sins are forgiven.

Do you claim the Arabians before prophet Mohammed pbuh did not truly worship God? Do you overlook that even over time the Bible speaks of people deviating from the true path?

Jude 1:

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
.....

.....
10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

1 Timothy 6
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,

21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

To mention a few.

Then your fuss about bowing towards the Kaaba you should reflect on Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your unfailing love and your faithfulness, for you have so exalted your solemn decree that it surpasses your fame.

SIRTee15:

This is not about monotheism v polytheism. This thread is about associating a graven image with your deity. Can we call it idolatry when we venerate a stone during worship of your god


I never said u pray to the stone. I wrote u Muslims kiss or touch the stone as atonement of sin- this is found in your literature books.
Let me ask u a question, do u believe the Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

Is this not evidence that the black stone has significant spiritual influence and connotation.


Look at this guy, what's my business in what's written in your books. Did I tell u I believe the nonsense? It's your hadiths that said the stone turned from white to black because people were touching it. If u question the absurdity, u should take it up with your muslim scholars and not me.
I don't consider the black stone anything more than a pagan stone that was elevated to spiritual significance by Muhammed for whatever reason. The Black Stone was held in reverence well before Islam and was a site of pilgrimage of Nabataeans who visited the shrine once a year to perform their pilgrimage. The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, bowing, worshiping and praying to such sacred objects. However the practice is condemned in the Tanakh as idolatrous and was the subject of prophetic rebuke.
The meteorite-origin theory of the Black Stone is derived from similar stories of sacred stones such as the one placed and worshipped in the Greek Temple of Artemis.


Do footballers kiss the world cup trophy when they pray to Allah. Wont the muslim world be enraged if a muslim footballer place the trophy in front of him while doing his daily prayer and start kissing it.
Do footballers kiss the cup with hope of reward in heaven? abeg your comparison makes no sense. Try harder.


hajj is a period dedicated to Allah with intention of drawing close to him. Any act done during this time is considered spiritually significant otherwise u wont do it.


It's interesting that Aisha's age was never an issue amongst both early christians apologetics and muslims scholars.
None of your medevial scholars found it odd that muhammed married a 6 year old despite the Aisha's age of marriage was well known and documented in Islamic literatures. In the Islamic world, the young age of her marriage did not draw any significant discourse apart from associating her young age as affirmation of her virginity and subsequent religious purity. Her age did not interest later Muslim scholars either, and went unremarked-upon even by medieval and early-modern Christian polemicists.
It wasn't until the 19th century when westerners arrogate to themselves superiority moral complex and began to question child marriage, thus putting light on Muhammed's marriage with Aisha that her age became controversial.

So why all of a sudden modern Islamic scholars now have an issue with Aisha's age and are revising her age of marriage by pushing it forward, bringing up all forms of weak evidence when clear statements clearly shows she was a very young child. Is it because they now realised marrying a 6 year old girl is rightfully paedophilia and morally wrong.

Narrated `Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)
Sahih al-Bukhari 6130
What adult woman and her friends play with dolls for heaven's sake
Muslims should learn to call what is evil as evil, Muhammed is no saint!!!


I referenced it as example of how not to follow Muhammed, u are the one that made a molehill out of it.



Drop Aisha's marriage and answer my question. what is the spiritual significance of the black stone. why is it venerated?

Is it untrue that pagans and traditionalists are classified as Polytheists? When they are pouring libation not kissing their idols is this not in their worship?

The stories or reports about sacred stones being placed and worshipped in Greek temples, such as the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, are not related to the Black Stone’s origins. These stories involve gods and goddesses bestowing stones upon their temples for various reasons.

In Greek mythology, various stones and gems were believed to possess unique powers and attributes.

Emerald was believed to have healing and rejuvenating properties. Aristotle thought that owning emeralds could improve a person’s oratory skills, make them successful litigants, protect against epilepsy, and enable them to predict the future and reveal truths.

The Ancient Greeks considered diamonds to be tears of the gods, while Romans believed they were part of fallen stars. Diamonds were also thought to bring great strength to their wearers.

The Black Stone’s significance comes from its association with Ibrahim and Isma’il and its role as a symbol of unity among Muslims from all over the world who come to perform Hajj or Umrah pilgrimages.

Your Bible in Acts 19:35 states that the the city clerk quieted the crowd and said: “Fellow Ephesians, doesn’t all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven? How does Paul or any other differentiate the Gospel from this?

Your reference to modern scholars is because you fail to understand the deliberate acts to correct misunderstanding and misconceptions that are becoming the norm.

You have made statements referring to the black stone granting forgiveness when it is it being part of the pilgrimage process which when done sincerely in worship of Allah grants forgiveness from Allah of sins

AbuTwins:

Qur'an 53:19-23
Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs)
And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?
Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
That indeed is a division most unfair!
They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord!

Don't mind them with their incomplete reading and disregard of the context to promote their slander.

honesttalk21:


Don't mind them with their incomplete reading and disregard of the context to promote their slander.

He may still bring same argument again tomorrow!

Interesting topic, I must admit

@Abutwins and honesttalk21

Why can't the two of you agree and take a side of argument?

One believes the stone is a medium by which God forgives sin, the other is covertly disagreeing. Funny

Take a side please.

While at it, kindly answer this, if a stone can serve as a medium, what makes you think other things God created can't serve as a medium?

If they can or can't, kindly provide a logical argument why they can or can't.

jendoslim:
Interesting topic, I must admit

@Abutwins and honesttalk21

Why can't the two of you agree and take a side of argument?

One believes the stone is a medium by which God forgives sin, the other is covertly disagreeing. Funny

Take a side please.

While at it, kindly answer this, if a stone can serve as a medium, what makes you think other things God created can't serve as a medium?

If they can or can't, kindly provide a logical argument why they can or can't.

Not just the stone or any stone but the black stone in the Kaaba specifically!

Allah is the sole forgiver of sins!

What is evident in the texts of Islam is what have been stated! Allah forgives whoever He wishes to forgive and He punishes whoever He wishes!

The texts of Islam never said any other thing existed as such to the best of my knowledge!

So we stick to the texts of Islam!