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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) (40806 Views)
Is That Really Jesus? By Reno Omokri / Archangel Michael Is Jesus Christ / Is Archangel Michael Jesus Christ? (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 12:36pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
plappville: So you know yet you refer to him as an angel na waoo.christ don suffer |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 12:41pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
truthislight: You read that passage clearly say he is not an angel but rather greater than any angel yet you are still arguing.is angel micheal not an angel? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 12:43pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
truthislight: Wrong again, GOD created angels. An angel cannot create angels , stop this nonsense. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 1:01pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
truthislight: Did i say that? Is the shout=trumpet? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 1:12pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
This is getting serious. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 1:21pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
plappville: My dear the way you put it there is not the way it is. Why not say also "with a commanding shout of the trumpet of God." It doesn't make sense. A shout: transmits His voice which the dead will hear and rise First. Voice of an arch angel: leads, commands the armies of heaven. Trumpet of God: has it own function and those that blow it. Will He do all these things and also blow the trumpet? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 1:25pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
BECAUSE THE NAME MICHAEL MEANS“WHO IS LIKE GOD?” AND THE NAME JESUS MEANS “JEHOVAH IS SALVATION” MUST THEY BE THE SAME PERSON? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 3:04pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
This trumpet sef, na Jesus abi na arc angel go blow am? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by BARRISTERS: 7:00pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
Before any considering any other (english) bible translation, let us consider the direct translation from hebrew/greek (both language originally used to write OT/NT)dictionary 1Thess 4:16 For.G3754 the Lord[/b]G2962. [b]himself. G846.shall .descend.G2597. from[/b]G575. [b]heaven[/b]G3772. [b]with.G1722 a shout,G2752. with[/b]G1722. [b] the voice[/b]G5456. [b]of the archangel.[size=18pt]G743[/size]. and[/b]G2532. [b]with[/b]G1722. [b]the trump[/b]G4536. [b]of God:G2316. and[/b]G2532. [b]the dead.G3498 inG1722 Christ.G5547. shall rise[/b]G450. [b]first:[/b]G4412 archangel G743 appears in 'greek' G743 [b]ἀρχάγγελος archaggelos ar-khang'-el-os From G757 and G32 ; a chief angel: - archangel. lets see further how arch angel (archaggelos)was derived ,From G757 and G32 ἄρχω archō ar'-kho A primary verb; [size=18pt]to be first[/size] (in political rank or power): - reign (rule) over unfortunately, archaggelos ἀρχάγγελος, archangel in greek was not used in Daniel 10:13 the way it was used in 1 thess 4:16; Dan 10:13 But the prince[/b]H8269. [b]of the kingdom.H4438[b] of Persia[/b].H6539 withstood.H5975[b]me one[/b].H259 and twenty.H6242 days.:H3117 but, lo, Michael,H4317. [size=18pt]one[/size].H259[size=18pt]of the chief[/size]H7223. [size=18pt]princes[/size],H8269 cameH935 to helpH5826 me; and I remainedH3498 there withH681 the kingsH4428 of Persia.H6539 fortunately, שׂר ώar sar is the greek word used in Daniel 10:13, H8269 שׂר ώar sar a head person (of any rank or class): - (captain) ([]chief ) {general} {governor} {keeper} ([-task-]) {master} prince steward. what do we learn here, that is the original greek words used in these bible verses (1thess 4:16 and Daniel 10:13) goes thus 1,....((archangel)as used in 1thess 4:16)....., ar-khang'-el-os ἀρχάγγελος (archangel); a chief angel.[size=18pt]to be first[/size]. (in political rank or power): - reign (rule) over 2,......שׂר ώar sar is the greek word used in Daniel 10:13, a head person : - (captain) (chief ) {general} {governor} {keeper} ([-task-]) {master} prince steward. so, ar-khang'-el-os ((archangel) is not only a chief angel, but 'the first'in reign (rule) over... while שׂר ώar sar the greek word used in Daniel 10:13 is of lower status to ar-khang'-el-os. and so, we only have 'one'archangel and not and not archangels more, but we have princes as boomark rightly noted,so micheal 'double as ar'-kho (arch) and ώar sar (prince). I wondered why NLT (new living translation) a very recent translation among others choose to render archangel in (plural) form when it is a known fact agreed upon by many bible translators that archangel was never rendered in anyway in pluralform(archangels) and the oldest bibles expecially King james version 1611 testifies to that. Daniel 10:13 NLT (2007) Daniel 10:13 King James Version (1611) 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. the answer is not far fetched from the preface of (NLT)2007, a rebrand of (Living bible), by keneth taylor(publisher) who claimed that ''he got some criticm on the older Living Bible from especially pastors accusing it of being paraphrased' but have to make NLT to suit the chalenge. so adding archangel as a plural where it does not exist originally in the 'greek' word in Daniel 10:13,expose some 'personal interest' of the (NLT)bible publisher to suit some beliefs and not beign nuetral,no wonder tithe tithe preachers use (NLT) most because of 'adding' a new phrase to mathew 23:23...''yes,you must tithe'' which cannot be found in older bible,and also portrayed jesus as supporting paying tithe, so we cannot rely on (NLT) bible translation for credibility,because it is just too recent,less than a decade and found wanting. it is a atatement of fact that there are no other archangels in the bible, it is only one...Micheal daniel 10:13 was only talking about[b] part of[/b] micheal's title as chief prince, it was the same in all other bible, and it agrees with the original 2 Likes |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by BARRISTERS: 7:10pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
@Boomark, you do have a good point in hebrew 1;5, however we still need to debate that and reconcile with other stronger proofs, i think logically you are are very consistent. in Daniel 10:13, why is your own bible using princes and not archangels, can you give your own comment? @frosbel, you lost me when in face of glarring affimation by jesus (the subject)that ''he existed even before the world'' you went further to say that we have 3 jesus,im i correct? totally illogical....this goes to show that you have your own agenda; you believe in creation frictions to as to get peoples views to create more tread,isnt it? and not you being fully commited and hold fast to the truth,well thats good for you! @plappville wonderfull job! your facts are presented logically from OT to NT, and an objective reader will get the facts easily with the time that you have put, but unfortunately you wasted too much time with a wall,'someone who had made up his mind' who is not ready to reason from other forumites that are operating within the sacred scriptures, but 'apocripha' scriptures,including the book of Tobit,maccabee were unsacred as it were,they were of pagan, and going into cannon history may derail this tread,so i will contribute if another tread is opened to address it. But you cannot continue to give more time to adress chukwudi and as you can see,it is either he doesnt understand logic, or that he just choose to be unyielding and adamant,and rather make you go in circles,and succeed in sapping your energy,be wise and be economical with your valuables before undeserved ones. @ijawkid good job.but be wise and be economical with your valuables before undeserved ones,direct them to the deserved ones. @chukwudi44, it amased me the way you breeze through facts presented by forumites and still come back to square one, from all the point presented to you with the occurence of joshua's encounter with 'the commander of Gods army' you keep denying the commander as not an angel, remember the same way the angels that abram entertained were of the same appearance,they appeared phisically for a purpose, its needless to go further with you on that brother, what surprised me was that 'you singularly pick the area that joshua fell to worship the angel' and to also justify mary worship by catholics, but fail to aknowledge other glarring facts before you because you are only bent on defending catholics,thats purely immature, anyway you have the right to your own opinion, but others too should be aware about saving their time and resourses arguing with you. 2 Likes |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by sunkoye: 7:33pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
Fact- Jesus Is God. Gaskia |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 7:38pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
sunkoye: Fact- Jesus Is God. Gaskia Wrong. Jesus is the SON of GOD. Yahweh is Almighty GOD. There is only ONE Ruler of the universe, not 2. 1 Like |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 7:39pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
@ BARRISTERS Jesus is neither GOD nor an angel. He is quite simply the SON of GOD , the Messiah and the Christ. I will not allow you spread error. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by ijawkid(m): 7:39pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
sunkoye: Fact- Jesus Is God. Gaskia Hmmmmm..... Its like you missed the trinity threads....... |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by omowolewa: 9:23pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
O.k |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 9:39pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
Na wa o, |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by sunkoye: 10:01pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
U guys need to surport ur arguement with facts. Either isaiah is wrong or u guys are! I knw u are anyways... |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Todaynatoday: 10:06pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
Five pages (and counting) and we still don't know if Michael the Archangel is really Jesus. Can you guys just reach a consensus. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by BARRISTERS: 11:03pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
@frosbel Jesus is neither GOD nor an angel. yeah, you called jesus a liar and said jesus was wrong to say that he; 'ever exist before he was born' isn'nt it? and that he was wrong by even saying that he ; ''shared glory with God before the world was created'' isn'nt it? you even went ahead to say that 3 jesus exist, isn'nt it? and who are you to stop barristers, you only care about using peoples comment to create new treads,to your own credit, go and stop that! |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 11:09pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
Todaynatoday: Five pages (and counting) and we still don't know if Michael the Archangel is really Jesus. Can you guys just reach a consensus.Meeeen, i wonder o. See all them big big scriptures sef, sure say all these scriptures dey inside my bible so? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 11:23pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, [/b]“The Lord rebuke you!” [b][a] 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them. Obviously even the arch angel micheal acknowleged he was not the Lord yet people are here yarning thrash. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 11:26pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
^^^when a christian starts saying fellow christians are yarning thrash. Well, let us move on with the thread. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by sunkoye: 11:31pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
truthislight:Ha ah...u are so mixing things up here. Jesus was created? Why is He from everlastin? ie no begining which is the xtics of God? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by pastormustwacc: 11:35pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
^^^some of them say that Jesus is not God. That he is not even the second person in the trinity. Whew, those trinity threads were tug of wars. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by ijawkid(m): 11:57pm On Nov 20, 2012 |
chukwudi44: . 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, When Michael disputed with satan over moses' body,was it before Jesus' descending to the earth or after??... For you to assume that the" Lord" in jude 9 is Jesus ,then you need to wash ya eyes with soda........ Let me quote that verse from the aramaic bible Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) But Michael"" the Archangel"", who, when he was speaking with The Devil about the body of Moses, did not speak to bring a slanderous judgment against him, but he said, “THE LORD JEHOVAH will rebuke you.” ______________________ Chukwu hope you dey see am?? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by pastormustwacc: 12:13am On Nov 21, 2012 |
Haba! chukwu no go gree. He will brandish the book of tobbit now. This thread shall not have an ending at this rate. . . |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by ijawkid(m): 12:29am On Nov 21, 2012 |
pastormustwacc: ^^^some of them say that Jesus is not God. That he is not even the second person in the trinity. Whew, those trinity threads were tug of wars. Did you participate in those 3nity threads??.....they were indeed WAR..... See fight......!!!!!!.......««»»X........... |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Ndipe(m): 4:14am On Nov 21, 2012 |
plappville: Angels cant be worshipped, it's unscriptural to worship Angels, so whom Joshua met and bowed down to was likely Jesus Christ. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 6:45am On Nov 21, 2012 |
The big question here is are arch angels not angels? Is an army commander not a soldier? The first chapter of hebrew is enough for any honest person to end this argument but dogmatism and pride will not allow them. Heb 1:4 Christ is vastly superior to angels yet people are still arguing. The last portion of daniel was written in aramaic and not greek .The word translated as prince is actually angels.even the phrase "one of the chief princes" clearly states that micheal has peers in heaven.He is not alone in what ever strata of authourity he occuppies. [/quote] I am yet to see where micheal was appointed as the commander of the Lord's army.That Joshua passage did not mention micheal and has nothing to do with him. After denying that the term chief prince is not the same as arch angel you are here lecturing me on terminologies? For the umpteenth time catholic do not worship mary. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 7:48am On Nov 21, 2012 |
BARRISTERS: @Boomark, you do have a good point in hebrew 1;5, however we still need to debate that and reconcile with other stronger proofs, i think logically you are are very consistent. If you Google Da 10:13, you will see various translations from 'bible.cc.' I use NWT and NKJV, both gave me one of the 'foremost princes and chief princes.' I also saw 'archangels' in some other translations. When Michael rises, there are things he does. He will protect and stand for the saints at that time from satan. Christ will not do everything alone. His angels have roles they will. Michael will rise because he is mighty and he has a great role to play at that time. Hebrew1:5 New International Version (©1984) For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? New Living Translation (©2007) For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father." God also said, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son." Hebrew will not accept an angel being the 'Son.' It is not my fault. We still come back to this point even after making the "shout", "voice of an archangel" and "the trumpet of God", Michaels. |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 8:07am On Nov 21, 2012 |
ijawkid: I have learnt how to end that war quick quick before it starts. The pilot test was done in "another look at trinity." when you start refuting them from their definition of trinity using the scripture, it wount enter the next stage. I was asked to go and consult a spirit which i don't know if it is the Holyspirit. I know the Holy spirit is true and will tell us the truth according to the word of God. Does any one have anything to say about Hebrew 1:5? |
Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by sunkoye: 8:09am On Nov 21, 2012 |
In order to demonstrate that Jesus was never an angel, it is necessary to first find the definition of angel in the Bible. According to Hebrews 1:7, 14, angels are described as spirit-beings who are ministers and servants of God. Naturally, this would include Michael the archangel: Hebrews 1:7 “And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.” Hebrews 1:14 (Regarding the angels) “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” Since all angels are servants of God, Philippians 2:6-7 declares that Jesus Christ, being in the form of God, “took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:” “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.” Since Philippians 2:7 states that Jesus took the form of a servant, He could not have possessed the nature of a servant prior to His birth in Bethlehem. As a result, this verse provides conclusive proof that Jesus could not have been Michael ‘prior to’ His birth because an archangel is one of God’s servants (Hebrews 1:7, 14). The Scriptures continue to stress that Jesus is more than a divine and created being, i.e. an angel. Daniel 10:13 provides another reason why Jesus cannot be Michael. In this verse, the archangel is called “one of the chief princes:” "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia." |
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