LionInZion:


Hahaha 😆
I thought I was the only one who got lol at that analogy. Maybe that's even possible (I won't rule out the possibility), I wonder why such an outlier should form the representation of the wider group.

On student visa, the record is there for everyone to see that the highest student to dependent ratio was 5:1. Yet this time last year, many folks including those in the media, who should know better, went about it as if student dependents have taken over the whole of the country and were the cause of all infrastructural and economic problems facing the country. Then it's all about narrative and agenda.

From the MAC:

Nigerian students are particularly likely to bring dependants to the UK (an average of 1.02 dependants per student in 2022, compared to 0.28 among all international students),

The government's statement in parliament in 2023 in response to very high migration numbers:

First, it was this Government who created the international education strategy, which set a target of attracting 600,000 international students to the UK. We have met that target 10 years early and are likely to exceed it this year.... It was never the intention of that policy to enable a very large number of dependants to come to the UK with those students. It is right that universities attract the best and the brightest and that those who are on longer courses, such as PhDs or MPhils, can bring dependants with them, but it is not right that education is a back door for immigration into the country.....In 2019, 16,000 visas were issued to student dependants. Last year, the number was 136,000—an increase of eight and a half times.....it is right that we pay particular concern to pressure on housing supply and public services, to integration and community cohesion and to making good on our commitment to the British public that we will bring down net migration, which is what the vast majority of the public want to see done.



The government's response sounds quite measured and sensible, I can't see where they are stoking an anti-immigrant/dependant narrative as you claim.

LionInZion:


On student visa, the record is there for everyone to see that the highest student to dependent ratio was 5:1. Yet this time last year, many folks including those in the media, who should know better, went about it as if student dependents have taken over the whole of the country and were the cause of all infrastructural and economic problems facing the country. Then it's all about narrative and agenda.

It's very difficult to change a narrative once the media has latched unto it. Look at Rishi. How was the IHS fee introduced? If I'm not mistaken, someone on a visiting visa gave birth in an NHS hospital and left. The narrative was so driven that those on work visas were now made to pay an extra levy including those working in the NHS until the covid experience challenged the folly.

A part of me wanted them to go on and end the psw visa as had been suggested but for new entrants only. So when reality hits in a few years, it's back to chasing tails and they can learn once more that for many, a british masters cert is only worth the migration advantage it offers.

LionInZion:


... I'll resist the urge to go into the argument on whether that route was based on generosity or not, because that's another subjective point that can be open to multiple interpretations.

Lol... I no even see that one. Generosity indeed. Reminds me of a white Southafrican I met who described how the apartheid regime were 'generous' in handing over power to Mandela in 94. Perhaps he was comparing their 'benevolence' to what the relatives of his forebearers did to indigenous populations in the U.S or Aus.

As entitled and ignorant as that word sounds, a fair portion of the populace still thinks same. Its why as a country, were yet to get past the first question i.e do we need immigrants ?

jedisco:



Lol... I no even see that one. Generosity indeed. Reminds me of a white southafrican I met who described how the apartheid regime were 'generous' in handing over power to Mandela in 94. Perhaps he was comparing their 'benevolence' to what his forbearers did to indigenous populations in the U.S or Aus.

As entitled and ignorant as that word sounds, a fair portion of the populace still thinks same. Its why as a country, were yet to get past the first question i.e do we need immigrants ?

Try to read before commenting.

Generous was used in the context that the care visa route was very relaxed and had low barriers of entry compared to other work visa or family routes.

ReesheesuKnack:


Honestly, I wonder what the UK will look like, if persons having this sort of thinking are allowed to run the country.

A 47 year old Mr’s A gets a CoS of sponsorship to be a Care worker in the UK (£22,000 pa max).
Mrs A has 5 children and 1 husband. The oldest child in SS1, the youngest in primary 2. Mrs A travels to the UK to work (as Care worker on a 22k salary). Mrs A does not pay IHS. Even Mrs A’s visa application fee is massively discounted.

The family of 7 arrives the UK. Mrs A is the only one working (on a 22k pa salary). Although the husband can work, he can’t, because of child care. All 5 children are enrolled in free school. All 6 dependants can access the NHS and other public services.

Any country that doesn’t see what the problem is, and curtail this is bound to fail.

Portraying this as some sort of ‘parents are forced away from their families’ is absolute bunkum!

The evidence widely available IS that immigrants from outside the UK are net positive fiscal contributors to the UK economy. For every ''Mrs A'' you say is a drain to the system, there is a Mrs B and Mrs C who are single highly skilled professionals paying tax and using private healthcare. When Mrs B and Mrs C get married, they will send their children to private schools and enrol them in private healthcare, thus freeing up state schools and the NHS for those in need. This was the Home Office own conclusion in their published research on fiscal effects of immigration, and I know you and I don't know more than the Home Office.

What I do find shocking is a certain breed of immigrants jumping on the bandwagon and blaming immigration for the systemic failure of public services in the UK. This is why I tend to avoid immigration debates both online and offline, it's not evidence-based, often toxic and leads to nowhere.

.

Zahra29:


Try to read before commenting.

Generous was used in the context that the care visa route was very relaxed and had low barriers of entry compared to other work visa or family routes.

Lol... Zahra.. I agree see it's been a true demonstration of British benevolence.

Stop the back and forth and let me ask.

1. Does the UK need immigrants?
2. If yes, given current realities, what number of immigrants do you estimate the UK needs annually to maintain a stable economy?

jedisco:


Lol... Zahra.. I agree see it's been a true demonstration of British benevolence.

Stop the back and forth and let me ask.

1. Does the UK need immigrants?
2. If yes, given current realities, what number of immigrants do you estimate the UK needs annually to maintain a stable economy?

Lol, we can all agree that it was a very relaxed route, yes?

And this is in part because to the answer to your first question;
1. Yes the UK needs immigrants. Every country does to an extent, even Nigeria to replace the vast numbers of professionals leaving the country.

Where we tend to disagree is that every country has the sovereign right to determine if and how many immigrants it wants to allow in. Even if they have a declining native birth rate, it's still their decision. You can't force them to open their borders more than they want to in order to accommodate migrants (not refugees) who want to come in.

2. It's very difficult to estimate. I don't think any country has managed to pin it down to an exact number. What most countries do is open the tap when they need immigrant workforce and then close it when they've had enough.

You should also realise that skilled workers (which is the main group of immigrants referenced on this thread) represent only a fraction of UK immigrants. There is a significant number of immigrants on the family route, for example the spouses of British citizens, who also plug labour shortages and on average pay even more to the government in visa fees - also without any recourse to public funds.

rayralph:


I doubt you can get it cheaper than what you’re offered.

I’ll suggest you take it.

Insurance rates are crazy right now.

What might happen if I don't change ASAP? What if I change after 2months?

ReesheesuKnack:


Honestly, I wonder what the UK will look like, if persons having this sort of thinking are allowed to run the country.

A 47 year old Mr’s A gets a CoS of sponsorship to be a Care worker in the UK (£22,000 pa max).
Mrs A has 5 children and 1 husband. The oldest child in SS1, the youngest in primary 2. Mrs A travels to the UK to work (as Care worker on a 22k salary). Mrs A does not pay IHS. Even Mrs A’s visa application fee is massively discounted.

The family of 7 arrives the UK. Mrs A is the only one working (on a 22k pa salary). Although the husband can work, he can’t, because of child care. All 5 children are enrolled in free school. All 6 dependants can access the NHS and other public services.

Any country that doesn’t see what the problem is, and curtail this is bound to fail.

Portraying this as some sort of ‘parents are forced away from their families’ is absolute bunkum!

If you have minor children and you are going abroad, you should be allowed to bring them with you,if you want to. Your children should not grow up without you , QED. Your partner is another able-bodied adult paying taxes to the state.

You have never made this argument for British immigrants to Nigeria.its cruel and unusual.

claremont:


The evidence widely available IS that immigrants from outside the UK are net positive fiscal contributors to the UK economy.

I believe while this is true overall, not everyone is a beneficiary.

For example, a 2022 study found that immigration to the UK from 1994 to 2016 reduced the hourly wage of UK-born wage earners at the 5th percentile (i.e. the lowest earners in the labour market) by around half of one pence per year. The gains for top earners were also small: 1.7p per year for people at the 90th percentile of wage earners. Another study focusing on wage effects at the occupational level found that, in low-wage service sector jobs, a 1 percentage point rise in the share of migrants reduced average wages in that occupation by about 0.2%. These results are broadly similar to findings from other studies.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/#:~:text=Similarly%2C%20the%20MAC%20review%20concluded,others%20found%20positive%20average%20effects.

It also has a sizeable impact on house prices:

Professor Nickell, who advises the Government on affordable housing, said that since 2000 the ratio of average house prices to average annual earnings had risen from four to seven. If net immigration had been zero, house prices would, according to Professor Nickell, still have risen to 6.5 times average income (Q 49). Professor Nickell also forecast that, if the current rate of house building is sustained for the next 20 years, house prices will rise to 9.3 times average income if there is zero net migration. But if there is 190,000 net immigration each year, house prices will rise to 10.5 times average income—13% higher than they would be with zero migration

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/8209.htm#:~:text=Immigration%20is%20one%20of%20many,there%20were%20zero%20net%20immigration.

Which somewhat explains why there's a fairly big disparity in opinion towards migration. If you have a home already and a well paying job. Great! Your income goes slightly up and your house price climbs.

If you're on the lower earning end of the spectrum and you rent then the result is marginally worse wages and more expensive housing/higher rents.

IridescentAge:


I believe while this is true overall, not everyone is a beneficiary.



https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/#:~:text=Similarly%2C%20the%20MAC%20review%20concluded,others%20found%20positive%20average%20effects.

It also has a sizeable impact on house prices:



https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/8209.htm#:~:text=Immigration%20is%20one%20of%20many,there%20were%20zero%20net%20immigration.

Which somewhat explains why there's a fairly big disparity in opinion towards migration. If you have a home already and a well paying job. Great! Your income goes slightly up and your house price climbs.

If you're on the lower earning end of the spectrum and you rent then the result is marginally worse wages and more expensive housing/higher rents.

You do know low houseprices are not the only indicators of a prosperous nation.
The UK population would be falling if not for immigration. How would you fund pensions , infrastructure and services then?

Populations grow ,that's just what a healthy population does. Onus is on the government to plan ahead and provide infrastructure well ahead of projected growth.

We haven't seen that for decades in everywhere including with housebuilding targets. I do not accept any of the blame for the current housing crisis. I am laying it squarely where it belongs at the feet of the government.

Expat or expert, tomato or tomatoes 😂

missjekyll:



You do know low houseprices are not the only indicators of a prosperous nation.
The UK population would be falling if not for immigration. How would you fund pensions , infrastructure and services then?

Populations grow ,that's just what a healthy population does. Onus is on the government to plan ahead and provide infrastructure well ahead of projected growth.

We haven't seen that for decades in everywhere including with housebuilding targets. I do not accept any of the blame for the current housing crisis. I am laying it squarely where it belongs at the feet of the government.

It's not about pointing fingers, it's about understanding cause and effect. The government is culpable because successive governments haven't met their building pledges; however it is also true,as the evidence provided shows, that the effect of increased migration is greater pressure on an already stretched housing market.

As to the bolded, it's up to a country how it chooses to address its changing population dynamics. Some like Canada will throw the doors open, others like Japan, Hungary etc may prefer to more conservative. It is their own decision to make, not to be imposed on them.

missjekyll:


If you have minor children and you are going abroad, you should be allowed to bring them with you,if you want to. Your children should not grow up without you , QED. Your partner is another able-bodied adult paying taxes to the state.

You have never made this argument for British immigrants to Nigeria.its cruel and unusual.

Why not bring them on one of the >400 occupation codes that allow an unlimited number of dependants though? Why focus on the only 2 codes that have banned dependants?

jedisco:


Hehe. They'd still moan when foreign based folks buy houses for themselves or kids in the UK. It appears the aim is to have a constant stream of migrants arrive at Heathrow, turn over £50k to the UK government and return home. Even with that, they'd still complain about overcrowding the airport. They should borrow a leaf from Japan and own their problems.


A question I often encounter is - are you thinking of going back? It's easy to guage where this is coming from. My response is usually in the line of: 'I'm considering options outside the UK where pay and work-life balance is better. However if I leave, as a Brit, UK would be a potential option for retirement as an increasing number of relatives are coming over'. You need to see how red face dey get. Like say I be cheating spouse ‐ folks dont want you to come, folks don't want you to go.

I once asked one when all the British migrants who went to Australia, U.S and S.A to displace native populations are returning home. UK needs their skill afterall.

Went to a church last Sunday for the first time and that was the stupid question their pastor asked me after greetings.
Him: bla bla bla, when are you going back to Nigeria?
Me: (snaps) I don't know
A black British for that matter! Probably was privileged to be born here by black immigrants.

Zahra29:


Why not bring them on one of the >400 occupation codes that allow an unlimited number of dependants though? Why focus on the only 2 codes that have banned dependants?

What use is 400 if the only 2 I have qualifications for do not let me bring my toddler with me?

I m not sure how this is relevant.
The UK should decide how many care visas it needs, stick to that and let families stay together. The current visa rules are cruel. Also the 2 child benefit cap.

babajeje123:

Went to a church last Sunday for the first time and that was the stupid question their pastor asked me after greetings.
Him: bla bla bla, when are you going back to Nigeria?
Me: (snaps) I don't know
A black British for that matter! Probably was privileged to be born here by black immigrants.

You do realize that some people ask this question without any malice, and simply based on their own mindset that people generally go to places to visit, work, study and then return home?

Permanent emigration is not quite as popular and embedded in the public psyche among Brits as it is among people from certain other countries. It's the rare exception rather than the norm.

Not saying you or anyone else isn't right to be irritated when asked that question - it's up to you to gauge the intent behind it in specific situations, etc, but painting the question itself as something inherently offensive and automatically getting your panties in a twist when you encounter it just isn't right.

babajeje123:

Went to a church last Sunday for the first time and that was the stupid question their pastor asked me after greetings.
Him: bla bla bla, when are you going back to Nigeria?
Me: (snaps) I don't know
A black British for that matter! Probably was privileged to be born here by black immigrants.

What the heck is that? Small talk is tedious but you natter about the weather, food ,job. Avoid politics and religion. He should have known that. Sorry you had to go through that.

missjekyll:


What the heck is that? Small talk is tedious but you natter about the weather, food ,job. Avoid politics and religion. He should have known that. Sorry you had to go through that.

In a church, they should avoid religion, abi?

The pastor might just have been asking from the perspective of wanting to understand the new member's outlook - will they be here for a long time or are they say, students, who'll be here for a short period? There are myriad reasons why he might have genuinely enquired, without any of the malice you're insinuating, but now you're saying sorry to this person as if the question dealt him serious emotional damage.

It's somehow amusing but also sad to watch snowflakes in action. People literally walk around looking for things to be offended by nowadays.

missjekyll:


If you have minor children and you are going abroad, you should be allowed to bring them with you,if you want to. Your children should not grow up without you , QED. Your partner is another able-bodied adult paying taxes to the state.

You have never made this argument for British immigrants to Nigeria.its cruel and unusual.

It would be cruel and unusual if people were compelled, but If you read your own post, you'll see that the first action word there is 'going' - not 'being dragged away', not 'forced to go', not 'strapped into a plane and compelled to go work as a care worker in the UK'.

Nobody is being made to make their children grow up without them. People already in the country were exempted. Others have the full agency to CHOOSE. The country wants people who can work in care but not additional family members because they want to keep immigration figures down, so they've set out their conditions. People who are single should apply - those who aren't should not.

It's the same thing with study visas. Some undergrads are married and have kids. Some masters students too. But most countries don't allow those people bring their families along, so if you're in that category you can choose to go to a country that does, or travel on a visa that allows you to.

Stop doing this classic leftist SJW culture of low expectations thing of infantilizing people and making it seem like they have no agency and everything they do, it's because they were forced and nothing is their responsibility etc. etc.

BTW in Nigeria, foreign work permit holders can have their married spouses with them but not their partners, even if they've been together for years, decades, etc, have children and clearly have their whole lives together. How's that for cruel and unusual?

Goodenoch:


You do realize that some people ask this question without any malice, and simply based on their own mindset that people generally go to places to visit, work, study and then return home?

Permanent emigration is not quite as popular and embedded in the public psyche among Brits as it is among people from certain other countries. It's the rare exception rather than the norm.

Not saying you or anyone else isn't right to be irritated when asked that question - it's up to you to gauge the intent behind it in specific situations, etc, but painting the question itself as something inherently offensive and automatically getting your panties in a twist when you encounter it just isn't right.

I know when people talk out of ignorance. He knew what he said and my response made him to walk away. He could see the anger all over me.

missjekyll:


What the heck is that? Small talk is tedious but you natter about the weather, food ,job. Avoid politics and religion. He should have known that. Sorry you had to go through that.

To say this least I felt bad when he left. I nearly even left the church but for other members who came to say hello and made me a bit more comfortable.

missjekyll:

We haven't seen that for decades in everywhere including with housebuilding targets. I do not accept any of the blame for the current housing crisis. I am laying it squarely where it belongs at the feet of the government.

Before anything else. I think it's wrong to blame anyone, especially anyone who has been given a visa to come to the UK to live and work. The government is ultimately responsible for immigration policy. People are free to take advantage of anything government offers.

missjekyll:


You do know low houseprices are not the only indicators of a prosperous nation.
The UK population would be falling if not for immigration. How would you fund pensions , infrastructure and services then?

Populations grow ,that's just what a healthy population does. Onus is on the government to plan ahead and provide infrastructure well ahead of projected..

So I know that Labour have some major plans around this to ease planning regulation which I'm hopeful will help.

But the UK also has never really been able to build more than 300,000 homes a year (and hasn't even hit that since 1970). There is only so much we can expect the government to realistically achieve even if they completely relax the system.

This is also not a great situation for the people who immigrate here who don't have the wealth to buy a house.

babajeje123:

To say this least I felt bad when he left. I nearly even left the church but for other members who came to say hello and made me a bit more comfortable.

Complain or go have a friendly chat with him to tell him thats not okay. Imagine arriving at a your friends house and the first thing is when are you leaving? Not welcoming at all.

missjekyll:


What use is 400 if the only 2 I have qualifications for do not let me bring my toddler with me?

I m not sure how this is relevant.
The UK should decide how many care visas it needs, stick to that and let families stay together. The current visa rules are cruel. Also the 2 child benefit cap.

It is relevant because every country has its policies which intending immigrants have to abide by. If you don't meet or like the conditions, you are free to try another route or country. You don't strong-arm the target country to let you in based on your own specifications.

In any case Goodenoch has written a very good comment on this, please take a look.

ReesheesuKnack:




Justwise, that is the point Zahra29 has been making for ages.
Govt created a policy, post COVID. There were problems with the implementation of the policy. Plus, the route was massively abused by our people. Govt decided to NOT ENTIRELY scrap the policy, but to tighten loose ends and block loopholes. That is the common sense thing to do.

What is baffling is how some people portray the plugging of these loopholes to mean the Govt is ‘forcing parents away from their children’ what absolute tosh!

Not really,the whole immigration figure outcry by the govt is just nonsense, the govt created this prob, benefited hugely financially from the mess they created then turn around to moan about high number of immigrants into the UK.

Govt sold the COS, approved the visa to as many people as they want and the same govt is complaining about the same people they ALLOWED in.

I don't buy the point that the govt did not see this coming,

This just out.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/30/the-baby-bust-how-britains-falling-birthrate-is-creating-alarm-in-the-economy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

giselle237:

I once had a similar challenge. I forgot to submit reading and received an estimated bill later on. I simply wrote to them in an email explaining I can not be held liable for an estimated bill and would only pay for what I consume. Subsequently I did not fail to submit my readings, they simply went and recalculated the bill and reminded me of the days I must send in readings. What I do know is that they can not ‘force’ any estimation on you. Just chase up with them via email.

You can report them to the energy ombudsman. I work in the energy sector and once you report them, they will sit up and escalate any issue you have. You are not suppose to have such large estimate just because you didn’t send readings in a month or 2. Send them a mail and threaten them you will report the issue to the energy ombudsman if they don’t act on it. Energy companies usually pay a non refundable fee for any complaints brought to the ombudsman whether it is their fault or not so they do well to avoid being reported.

https://www.energyombudsman.org/how-we-can-help/network-operators

Goodenoch:


BTW in Nigeria, foreign work permit holders can have their married spouses with them but not their partners, even if they've been together for years, decades, etc, have children and clearly have their whole lives together. How's that for cruel and unusual?

Speaking about cruel and unusual, is it not the same Nigeria where foreign female spouses aka Naija wives are allowed citizenship by registration whereas their male counterparts cannot acquire Nigerian citizenship. A country that operates different citizenship rules for their male and female citizens!

Guys, what's this thing about Labour controlled councils and boroughs being bankrupt? Is Labour really the best? What I'm reading online is confusing... They not looking like the angels I thought them to be.

ehizario2012:
Guys, what's this thing about Labour controlled councils and boroughs being bankrupt? Is Labour really the best? What I'm reading online is confusing... They not looking like the angels I thought them to be.

Remain optimistic, but not deluded......😂

Remember who sold all gold reserves, United Kingdom had in their vaults .......😜

Religion ,to those who believe,is serious business. I certainly wouldn't choose this
for a natter after church.

He had absolutely no idea about his lifestory . His future emigration plans or lack thereof is none of his business, frankly. This question makes people feel like visitors especially as he asked when not even if .
I would strongly suggest taking this off your list of small talk topics.

Goodenoch:


In a church, they should avoid religion, abi?

The pastor might just have been asking from the perspective of wanting to understand the new member's outlook - will they be here for a long time or are they say, students, who'll be here for a short period? There are myriad reasons why he might have genuinely enquired, without any of the malice you're insinuating, but now you're saying sorry to this person as if the question dealt him serious emotional damage.

It's somehow amusing but also sad to watch snowflakes in action. People literally walk around looking for things to be offended by nowadays.