LionInZion:


You'd be amazed that that Nigerian Christian immigrant described by Gerrard would care less what Trump called Nigeria. Her number one pain point is the terrorism that dislocated her from her hometown and caused her permanent damage and loss. And you won't begrudge her if she's rooting for a candidate that promises to deal with the issue. I think that's the point the OP was trying to make.

There are lots of lovey-dovey folks across the world. People who expect the world to work the way they think it should, rather than what it actually is. Humans will protect their interests before their rights. Northern Nigeria's Christians lobbied hard to include Nigeria on the list of prosecuted religious persons, rightfully so. To date, the church in the southern part hasn't assisted their northern counterparts. Rather, White evangelical clerics are the ones funding the rebuilding of churches and paying tuition fees of children orphaned by the continuous destruction of farmlands, churches and communities across Northern Nigeria. Tomorrow, when Christians from those areas lend their support to Trump, Ikoyi and Lekki Democrats, aka WomenCanBecomeMenAdvocates will accuse them of ignorance. Ask these folks when was the last time they donated to their fellow Nigerians and blacks, since na dem sabi race theory pass, who are slaughtered based on their faith?

Gerrard59:


There are lots of lovey-dovey folks across the world. People who expect the world to work the way they think it should, rather than what it actually is. Humans will protect their interests before their rights. Northern Nigeria's Christians lobbied hard to include Nigeria on the list of prosecuted religious persons, rightfully so. To date, the church in the southern part hasn't assisted their northern counterparts. Rather, White evangelical clerics are the ones funding the rebuilding of churches and paying tuition fees of children orphaned by the continuous destruction of farmlands, churches and communities across Northern Nigeria. Tomorrow, when Christians from those areas lend their support to Trump, Ikoyi and Lekki Democrats, aka WomenCanBecomeMenAdvocates will accuse them of ignorance. Ask these folks when was the last time they donated to their fellow Nigerians and blacks, since na dem sabi race theory pass, who are slaughtered based on their faith?

Exactly! Dale Carnegie once said a man's toothache is of more concern to him than all the wars going on across the world [not verbatim].

We can't sit online and deride people for their electoral decisions when we haven't walked in their shoes.

When politicians go out there to campaign, what they appeal to is people's personal interest, pain points, needs etc, and that's what win you votes, not some academic journal statistics or fancy collated data that don't offer practical solutions.

Cyberknight:


I have to disagree with the bolded.
My opinion is the contrary - Farage/Reform has a very good chance of either becoming a kingmaker in 2029 or even taking control.

You funny.

By 2029, more children who have gone through the British liberal education system, where they would have sat in class with multiraced people and learnt together to think and reason critically and about each other and all gods will be old enough to vote.

They are not going to vote en masse for a hate your neighbour party when the opposite is their DNA, especially not when the King is The Defender of Faiths.

budaatum:


You funny.

By 2029, more children who have gone through the British liberal education system, where they would have sat in class with multiraced people and learnt together to think and reason critically and about each other and all gods will be old enough to vote.

They are not going to vote en masse for a hate your neighbour party when the opposite is their DNA, especially not when the King is The Defender of Faiths.

I can only think you are deploying sarcasm here.

budaatum:


You funny.

By 2029, more children who have gone through the British liberal education system, where they would have sat in class with multiraced people and learnt together to think and reason critically and about each other and all gods will be old enough to vote.

They are not going to vote en masse for a hate your neighbour party when the opposite is their DNA, especially not when the King is The Defender of Faiths.

Erm no, King Charles is Defender of the Faith just like his mother was and monarchs before her. His other official title is Supreme governor of the Church of England.

The Royal Family does not dispense with centuries old tradition on a whim. Charles had indicated many years back that he might want to be styled King of the Faiths but that was quickly shot down.

Gerrard59:


There are lots of lovey-dovey folks across the world. People who expect the world to work the way they think it should, rather than what it actually is. Humans will protect their interests before their rights. Northern Nigeria's Christians lobbied hard to include Nigeria on the list of prosecuted religious persons, rightfully so. To date, the church in the southern part hasn't assisted their northern counterparts. Rather, White evangelical clerics are the ones funding the rebuilding of churches and paying tuition fees of children orphaned by the continuous destruction of farmlands, churches and communities across Northern Nigeria. Tomorrow, when Christians from those areas lend their support to Trump, Ikoyi and Lekki Democrats, aka WomenCanBecomeMenAdvocates will accuse them of ignorance. Ask these folks when was the last time they donated to their fellow Nigerians and blacks, since na dem sabi race theory pass, who are slaughtered based on their faith?

Well said.

Zahra29:


Erm no, King Charles is Defender of the Faith just like his mother was and monarchs before him. His other official title is Supreme governor of the Church of England.
The Royal Family does not dispense with centuries old tradition on a whim. Charles had indicated that he might want to be styled King of the Faiths but that was quickly shot down.

Whim or not, the fact of the matter is that King Charles recited a brand new pledge that spoke of him working “to seek to foster an environment in which people of all faiths and beliefs may live freely.” None of his previous ancestors had ever said that.

So although the "defender of faith" thing was shot down as you put it in 1994, the king has clearly followed through to an extent on his principle and made a substantial step toward the monarchy being less exclusively Christian in outlook...for better or worse.

Also, budaatum, you make a very valid point about the inclusiveness in younger people. It's also not a coincidence that Labour is advocating for the vote to be given to 16-year Olds. Apart from their mindsets being more inclusive, that demographic will be increasingly diverse as the years go on. I think people will be very surprised come 2029 but let's wait and see.

Zahra29:


Erm no, King Charles is Defender of the Faith just like his mother was and monarchs before her. His other official title is Supreme governor of the Church of England.

The Royal Family does not dispense with centuries old tradition on a whim. Charles had indicated many years back that he might want to be styled King of the Faiths but that was quickly shot down.

It wasn't shut down in the millions of minds who appreciated even just the sentiment not to talk of his decades of history promoting interfaith.

The British do after all know by the fruits they see.

Gerrard59:


There are lots of lovey-dovey folks across the world. People who expect the world to work the way they think it should, rather than what it actually is. Humans will protect their interests before their rights. Northern Nigeria's Christians lobbied hard to include Nigeria on the list of prosecuted religious persons, rightfully so. To date, the church in the southern part hasn't assisted their northern counterparts. Rather, White evangelical clerics are the ones funding the rebuilding of churches and paying tuition fees of children orphaned by the continuous destruction of farmlands, churches and communities across Northern Nigeria. Tomorrow, when Christians from those areas lend their support to Trump, Ikoyi and Lekki Democrats, aka WomenCanBecomeMenAdvocates will accuse them of ignorance. Ask these folks when was the last time they donated to their fellow Nigerians and blacks, since na dem sabi race theory pass, who are slaughtered based on their faith?

I usually avoid religious/religion-related matters, because those are most likely to get one sucked into an impassioned and largely fruitless back-and-forth, but your assertion in bold here makes no sense. When you say "the church" are you referring to your own denomination or to all Christian denominations in Nigeria? You can possibly only make such a claim for your own denomination if you are intimately involved with its affairs - there is absolutely no basis for you to extend that blanket claim to all churches in Nigeria. As an aside, I happen to have been a member of a Lagos church which, to the best of my recollection, was asking for donations for dioceses in the north in 2011 or so.

Secondly, you are implying that southern Nigerians do not contribute or have never contributed to relief campaigns of any sort for their brethren in the north affected by the ongoing insurgency. Can you point to any figures or verifiable information to substantiate this? Unless you are specifically expecting Lagos/Abuja/PH/sundry urban dioceses or churches with wealthy parishioners to forcibly dip their hands into their parishioners' pockets and organise a wealth transfer from them to people in other parts of Nigeria, I do not see how a church or a denomination can be accused of doing nothing to support its [denominational] co-worshippers in this regard.

Quite a number of them have [had] their hands full with trying to do something for their own needy parishioners - you might have heard that there is an ongoing economic crisis in Nigeria, and even prior to this latest iteration there have always been lots of people in need of assistance - and I have some knowledge of the almost overwhelming level and types of requests a church welfare committee has to deal with (something that anyone can easily imagine for themselves given the issues in Naija), and the always heart-breaking decisions and trade-offs that have to be made.

Also I do have recollections of the odd fundraising drive or other campaign fronted by one Christian leader/public figure or another over the years since the insurgency took hold. TB Joshua, CAN, Oritsejafor, etc. all come to mind, if I remember correctly.

Cyberknight:


I can only think you are deploying sarcasm here.

You are indeed free to think what you want, but having to learn maths and science and critical reasoning till 16 does make the brain work better I think, unsarcastically.

If Nigeria had a similar homegrown version, we'd stand in much more brotherhood as races and tribes as we currently stand in fact. Likely why Tinubu has made us repeat and learn the past.

Anecdote. My sister in Bradford moved in next to a Pakistani family and went say hello. They invited her in, made her tea, told her who they were and how pleased they were she was their neighbour, the previous ones were a-holes.

Told her good secondhand furniture is at British Heart Foundation and if she needs handiwork done they know good people. Few weeks later she had to come London, "oh, we'll keep eye on the place for you".

Yesterday she said she visited and asked if they knew any employment agencies in UK. "What? You looking for work?". Father called a company he knew was opening and asked if they needed an accountant. Daughter rang her agency and introduced,"she's dedicated and hard working". Brother said cloths shop if she looking for just weekend.

My sister said she was in shock, making me laugh at her suprise at reaping the goodness and mercy she sows.

Gerrard59:


The United States was founded on Judeo-Christian values. So, this is irrelevant.

This is just a very silly comment, so Muslim countries should ban Christians from visiting their country because they were founded on Muslim values? What an argument to make in 2024.

budaatum:


You are indeed free to think what you want, but having to learn maths and science and critical reasoning till 16 does make the brain work better I think, unsarcastically.

If Nigeria had a similar homegrown version, we'd stand in much more brotherhood as races and tribes as we currently stand in fact. Likely why Tinubu has made us repeat and learn the past.

Anecdote. My sister in Bradford moved in next to a Pakistani family and went say hello. They invited her in, made her tea, told her who they were and how pleased they were she was their neighbour, the previous ones were a-holes.

Told her good secondhand furniture is at British Heart Foundation and if she needs handiwork done they know good people. Few weeks later she had to come London, "oh, we'll keep eye on the place for you".

Yesterday she said she visited and asked if they knew any employment agencies in UK. "What? You looking for work?". Father called a company he knew was opening and asked if they needed an accountant. Daughter rang her agency and introduced,"she's dedicated and hard working". Brother said cloths shop if she looking for just weekend.

My sister said she was in shock, making me laugh at her suprise at reaping the goodness and mercy she sows.

Lol. Nice heartwarming story you've narrated, but that's not what I was referring to.

My point (in direct response to your assertion) is that liberalism or advances in thought are not always guaranteed to change much about the underlying nature of the human being. Egalitarian educational systems in western Europe and large numbers of immigrants similar to the UK didn't stop a good number of young French voters from voting the far right last month, or the Germans from voting AfD or the Dutch from voting their Trump-haired chap's party (https://sociology.cornell.edu/news/youth-vote-factoring-heavily-french-elections) and (https://www.dw.com/en/afd-how-germanys-far-right-won-over-young-voters/a-69324954). Rubbing shoulders with immigrants and their descendants might help change minds, or it might not - there's no guarantee either way.

Zahra29:


The same could be said about Jenrick 😂

It'll be an interesting one. I suspect Tugendhant will win the parliamentary vote as the unite candidate but I don't see the membership voting for him.

I dont see the archetypical shire Tories voting for Braverman or Badenoch either. Patel, at a stretch maybe. They're going back to pale, male and (hopefully to them) not stale.

justwise:


That will not win you an election like i said before, the world is moving on faster than those two old lunatics.

You can't win by turning people against each other.

That's the whole premise on which elections are fought.

Cyberknight:

My point (in direct response to your assertion) is that liberalism or advances in thought are not always guaranteed to change much about the underlying nature of the human being.

"Liberalism or advances in thought are not always guaranteed to change" anything.

Education, however, the sort of education that promotes the development and use of the mind to think and reason, does change a lot "the underlying nature of the human being" or at least that of most who are successfully educated, and the British do educate their young well.

Still, 2029 soon come. Well see then if we are as ignorant as electing Reform would suggest we are or if we've overcome the xenophobia that made us leave Europe.

Cyberknight:

Egalitarian educational systems in western Europe and large numbers of immigrants similar to the UK didn't stop a good number of young French voters from voting the far right last month, or the Germans from voting AfD or the Dutch from voting their Trump-haired chap's party way.

Britain is not France, and the UK education system is class and it is location and it is how knowledgeable one is to know to chose it and definitely not egalitarian at all. You will however learn history whatever school you go, and be shown the ignorance of past racism and the predominant preferred attitude today.

You'd even be asked to sign up to antidiscrimination laws if you wanna work, and nothing makes people align better than hitting money in their pockets.

The closest Britain would get to Trump is Boris, I reckon.

Goodenoch:


Whim or not, the fact of the matter is that King Charles recited a brand new pledge that spoke of him working “to seek to foster an environment in which people of all faiths by beliefs may live freely.” None of his previous ancestors had ever said that.

So although the "defender of faith" thing was shot down as you put it in 1994, the king has clearly followed through to an extent on his principle and made a substantial step toward the monarchy being less exclusively Christian in outlook...for better or worse.

Also, budaatum, you make a very valid point about the inclusiveness in younger people. It's also not a coincidence that Labour is advocating for the vote to be given to 16-year Olds. Apart from their mindsets being more inclusive, that demographic will be increasingly diverse as the years go on. I think people will be very surprised come 2029 but let's wait and see.

The modified pledge, which is a very reasonable promise for ANY country to make in the 21st century, is very different to altering the fundamental titles of the RF. The King is Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church and shall remain so.

The UK is already extremely inclusive,it does not mean that the title of the King/Monarch has to change from the central tenets, faith and traditions that it and the country was founded on. Embracing other cultures and religions does not mean you have to lose sight of, or water down, your own.

There was a poll before the election that showed that Reform was polling high among the younger age groups. I posted a comment here about it, same trend playing out with the far right in Europe. So it's got nothing to do with the younger generation being enlightened as they already live in an inclusive, multicultural society. It has more to do with the hope that they feel that these new parties offers them over the status quo, such as home ownership.
( Edit: Reform was also polling higher among blacks, go figure!)

Cyberknight:


I dont see the archetypical shire Tories voting for Braverman or Badenoch either. Patel, at a stretch maybe. They're going back to pale, male and (hopefully to them) not stale.

True, good point. Colour does matter although Braverman has probably said enough to make them a bit more colour blind in her case. Tugendhant represents everything that the membership has just rejected at the last election, so I don't really see them voting for him either. Plus he does come across a bit stale/wet 😂

budaatum:


"Liberalism or advances in thought are not always guaranteed to change" anything.

Education, however, the sort of education that promotes the development and use of the mind to think and reason, does change a lot "the underlying nature of the human being" or at least that of most who are successfully educated, and the British do educate their young well.

Still, 2029 soon come. Well see then if we are as ignorant as electing Reform would suggest we are or if we've overcome the xenophobia that made us leave Europe.


Britain is not France, and the UK education system is class and it is location and it is how knowledgeable one is to know to chose it and definitely not egalitarian at all. You will however learn history whatever school you go, and be shown the ignorance of past racism and the predominant preferred attitude today.

You'd even be asked to sign up to antidiscrimination laws if you wanna work, and nothing makes people align better than hitting money in their pockets.

The closest Britain would get to Trump is Boris, I reckon.

Boris? As in Johnson? Boris Johnson was the wettest of Tories, basically a leftist.

Cyberknight:


Boris? As in Johnson? Boris Johnson was the wettest of Tories, basically a leftist.

Indeed, Boris the chameleon

Same Boris who advocated for an amnesty for all illegal immigrants when he was London Mayor. Then backed the Rwanda scheme just to win back the support of the right. Same Boris who legend has it, wrote 2 columns - one supporting and the other opposing Brexit - and waited till the last minute (when he had some insider clues on which way the referendum would go) to post one.

His values go anywhere that pays him lol

.

Zahra29:


1. The modified pledge, which is a very reasonable promise for ANY country to make in the 21st century, is very different to altering the fundamental titles of the RF. The King is Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church and shall remain so.

2. The UK is already extremely inclusive,it does not mean that the title of the King/Monarch has to change from the central tenets, faith and traditions that it and the country was founded on. Embracing other cultures and religions does not mean you have to lose sight of, or water down, your own.

3. There was a poll before the election that showed that Reform was polling high among the younger age groups. I posted a comment here about it, same trend playing out with the far right in Europe. So it's got nothing to do with the younger generation being enlightened as they already live in an inclusive, multicultural society. It has more to do with the hope that they feel that these new parties offers them over the status quo, such as home ownership.

1. The point is not about whether it's reasonable for the UK to make. The point was that taken into consideration alongside the King's previous wish to change his title to reflect multiple faiths, the current unprecedented change which he later made reflects a definitive shift away from tradition. It also doesn't matter how adamant you are when you declare that it shall remain so. The king himself said he wanted to change it. He didn't get his way fully but he started the monarchy down the path already. That's what matters.

2. I agree with you. I actually like British culture a lot. Doesn't change the facts though. I'm not talking about what should be. I'm assessing what is and what is likely to be in the future based on cultural and demographic trends. Did you think you'd see a UK prime minister doing a Hindu ritual before entering no. 10? Or the way religious politics affected the recent elections?

3. You're right - it's not just one thing. That doesn't change the overarching stats that younger people generally tend more 'progressive', and there's that other point about how there'll be an increasing diversity among those younger voters, especially as the old, consertative core dies - literally.

Cyberknight:


That's the whole premise on which elections are fought.

No you win election on policies unless you are suggesting that racism, homophobia and immigration fearmongering are all part of policies

justwise:


No you win election on policies unless you are suggesting that racism, homophobia and immigration fearmongering are all part of policies

Yes, they are. Didn't you know that?

claremont:
.

Reform political party will not tell their supporters this

Cyberknight:


Yes, they are. Didn't you know that?

Thanks for telling me.

Goodenoch:


1. The point is not about whether it's reasonable for the UK to make. The point was that taken into consideration alongside the King's previous wish to change his title to reflect multiple faiths, the current unprecedented change which he later made reflects a definitive shift away from tradition. It also doesn't matter how adamant you are when you declare that it shall remain so. The king himself said he wanted to change it. He didn't get his way fully but he started the monarchy down the part already. That's what matters.

2. I agree with you. I actually like British culture a lot. Doesn't change the facts though. I'm not talking about what should be. I'm assessing what is and what is likely to be in the future based on cultural and demographic trends. Did you think you'd see a UK prime minister doing a Hindu ritual before entering no. 10? Or the way religious politics affected the recent elections?

3. You're right - it's not just one thing. That doesn't change the overarching stats that younger people generally tend more 'progressive', and there's that other point about how there'll be an increasing diversity among those younger voters, especially as the old, consertative core dies - literally.

1. The fact that the King was denied his wish to change his title and was offered the concession pledge instead (30 years after the wish was initially made known) shows that it is very very unlikely that the titles will be changed at all. The RF has its own interests to look after as well, if it modernises or changes too much then it builds the Republican argument that the whole institution might as well be scrapped. What makes the RF unique are the sacrosanct traditions and pomp and ceremony which have stood for centuries, some of which are beyond the power of even the Monarch to change.

2. Exactly - the fact that Rishi could publicly perform his religion as part of his office is further proof that UK is already extremely inclusive of other faiths and cultures. I don't see why the RF has to change its fundamental traditions just to virtue signal the same point.

3. Reform also polled relatively high among blacks you know...so if they're attracting the younger populace as well as a group that is /has been on the receiving end of racism....I think the argument for/against them is perhaps more complex and nuanced than just race issues.

budaatum:



Still, 2029 soon come. Well see then if we are as ignorant as electing Reform would suggest we are or if we've overcome the xenophobia that made us leave Europe...

Hehe. As I said before the last election, in an unforgiven British political climate, a part of me wanted Reform to win so they can be given the tools to undo themselves just like we saw with immigration and Brexit ir BJo and Truss. Certain parties can wreck more havoc by being the opposition.

Enough is not said about the number of sits LibDems took from the Tories especially in previously pro-Brexit southern areas despite the Libdems manifesto being 'pro-immigration' and advocating rejoining the EU. If the Brexit vote regret keeps rising, rejoining EU might be a significant factor in coming elections.

claremont:
.

Interesting. Mind sharing the 'sauce'?

Remember asking if anyone thought the NHS would fare better if the UK had a Japan-esque migration policy.

Number 2 highlights the fact that in the modern world, Nigerians are are still far behind in the migration game.

Number 3 is quite a striking one. Recently moved to a new build estate and not far off are new build social/HA houses. Despite the builders best efforts to build their social houses in a way that would hide usual issues, still their game in hand is to let kids play on the road unsupervised into very late hours while the parents smoke pipe in the backyard. Once a police van is seen, we know where its headed. The other day, I heard mum and her quite young son exchanging swear words. In the morning, while most folks in the estate head off to work including some care workers who are renting, these able-bodied folks would steal a look and say 'hello'. I'm sure if you ask that lady the real reason why she is not working- her reply would be 'dem immigrants'. What annoys me is that my council is broke mainly down to ever-rising adult social care and tax is bound to increase yearly to pay the bills of many able-bodied folks who have refused to work not accounting for my income tax. I'm all for the welfare state and its safetynet but over 4 million working age adults on benefits? Haba

Zahra29:


1. The fact that the King was denied his wish to change his title and was offered the concession pledge instead (30 years after the wish was initially made known) shows that it is very very unlikely that the titles will be changed at all. The RF has its own interests to look after as well, if it modernises or changes too much then it builds the Republican argument that the whole institution might as well be scrapped. What makes the RF unique are the sacrosanct traditions and pomp and ceremony which have stood for centuries, some of which are beyond the power of even the Monarch to change.

2. Exactly - the fact that Rishi could publicly perform his religion as part of his office is further proof that UK is already extremely inclusive of other faiths and cultures. I don't see why the RF has to change its fundamental traditions just to virtue signal the same point.

3. Reform also polled relatively high among blacks you know...so if they're attracting the younger populace as well as a group that is /has been on the receiving end of racism....I think the argument for/against them is perhaps more complex and nuanced than just race issues.

A couple of things;

You don't know that the pledge was an offering to him or if he moderated his views over the intervening period. What we know for a fact is that he changed the wording of that pledge literally upon taking the throne. He couldn't have done anything before. Indicates that it was a priority for him. Also, the extent to which the royal traditions are beyond the power of the king to change are speculatitve (unless you have a statute you can cite) so this is a moot point. We'll see how things play out.

Again, I'm not saying the UK should change. I'm saying it has changed and is changing in one direction. It's not an opinion - it's a fact.

About Reform, now I'll speculate a little bit and tell you that you'll find that polls and indeed votes when people know that Reform doesn't actually have a chance of winning won't be indicative of actual voting patterns among the group the party has made it its priortity to demonize and threaten. Everyone was angry at the Tories and many were/are angry at Labour and so many votes and polls reflected that. In an election where they have an actual chance, the same will likely happen as did in France when the possibility of a Le Pen presidency became very real and people understood what that could mean for their immediate futures, they found the energy to unite and vote tactically to prevent it.

Ultimately at this point I'll just say let's see how things play out.

Cyberknight:


Boris? As in Johnson? Boris Johnson was the wettest of Tories, basically a leftist.

As I said, as close to trump as we're gonna get in UK, as that's how far apart from US UK is where you can't get away saying a quatre of what trump says..

Joe just dropped out and endorsed Kamala.

Great decision to drop out . I m not so sure about Kamala. She hasn't really done a lot with the border portfolio, has she?

If she was an Angela Rayner,I'd be giving a standing ovation.

But Hey! Dems are back in play,baby!!!

Gerrard59:


Whether Nigeria is a toilet or not is a different issue. You seem angry a White man called Nigeria a toilet. Maybe if it were not, you would be residing in Nigeria instead.

As for Trump and Christians in Nigeria, his administration enlisted Nigeria as one of the countries where religious prosecution goes on endlessly. Nigeria has more slain Christians than anywhere else. More than China and North Korea combined.



Stop the killing of Christians in Nigeria from Trump to Buhari:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ntPm8rB8s
https://punchng.com/killing-of-christians-in-nigeria-must-stop-says-trump/

Who removed Nigeria from the list? Your lovey-dovey Biden, who worked with Buhari to install him as president in 2015. How did Buhari's administration go for Nigeria?

but hey, rAcISm yada yada yada

I do not pretend to speak for everyone with Nigerian roots as I understand some people may feel,like you so clearly do, that your particular home,town,state,region is a loo.

I really can only speak from my background which is definitely of better quality and morals than 19 practitioner Trump and his supporters e.g you