| Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Sand2022: 12:03pm On Aug 29 |
So far, we have discussed the meaning of Trinity in my earlier post, and the last post I made is why Jesus cannot be said to be a creature. The main point of that post was on John 1:3, that apart from him not even one thing was made. That shows that Jesus cannot be reckoned as a creature. Today, we are still exploring why Jesus needs to be seen as of the same nature as the father. Let's start with Genesis. Gen 1:26-27 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them This scripture is significant to the topic. It is a scriptural fact that we are made in God's image, not the image of a creature. Here God is revealing something, that he is not the only one involved here. There is US. then in verse 27, the bible goes further to say that God went on to create man in HIS image. In verse 26, there is US, then in verse 27, there is God, singular. This is one proof that the one who had the same image as God here must be of the same essence or nature with God. There is no way to run away from that. To further support the point of similar nature, see how Heb 1:3 puts it: 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." Notice, the exact representation of his very what? Being. Take note of that word. The Greek word used here for exact representation means a facsimile of something. It means that Christ is of the same Being of God. The word is hypostasis, meaning Substance or Essence. In other words the same Nature as God. When you hear the Trinity recitation of "God from God, very God of Very God", this verse is the key to that phrase. They mean that Christ is of God's Nature. That is why in my previous article, I said that perhaps God split Himself in two, and assign role of Son to the second Facsimile of Himself. Creating us in his image means we are able to manifest His qualities. God cannot connect His uncreated image to someone who is created. If Jesus was a creature, it will be misleading for God to say that man was created in His image, it would rather be God's image and the image of another creature that he made man. God can say that the image is "Our Image" in reference to others, if those ones are of the same Nature as himself. Being of the same nature, we can then use singular and say, we are made in God's image. 2. Jesus is a Universal Sovereign: We know that only God is the universal sovereign. That is also the belief of Jehovah's witnesses. However, scripture shows that Jesus is viewed as the SAME Universal Sovereign as the Father. Let's see Genesis once more. Gen 3: 22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” (NWT) This might not appear to be a great point, but you will see what a point it is when you realize the meaning of knowledge of good and bad as taught by the witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses agrees with the position mentioned in the Jerusalem Bible (1966). In describing what this knowledge of good and bad means, see what the Insight says: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride." The teaching of JWs is that by eating of that fruit, Adam and Eve were like God to themselves. They are in effect saying that eating of that fruit is right, when the Universal Sovereign has decreed that it is wrong. That is an attack on the universal sovereign's exclusive right to determine what is right and what is wrong. To make it simple, the phrase "knowing good and bad" means setting standard of right and wrong". And only God has that right. Now notice that the same phrase occured at Gen 3:22, but there God is saying that he is not the only one who has the right to get standard of right and wrong. Interesting, right? See what it says: "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad." This statement shows that Jesus also is a Universal Sovereign just as God is a universal sovereign. But because they are of the same essence, we don't have two universal sovereigns but one. Another reason why Jesus is a universal sovereign. Jesus is the king of Kings. Let's read 1 Tim 6 "to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen." (NWT) JWs view this verse as referring to Jesus. Jesus Christ at Rev 17:14; 19:16 is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is clearly pointing to the fact that he is a universal sovereign. The Governing Body will say that this is in reference to earthly kings, that Jesus is there king. Of course, but let's inquire, for servants of Jehovah, both in heaven and on earth, who is our king? Do Angels have another King other than Jehovah? So the only king for true worshipers is Jehovah. So to even call Jesus King of kings is to equate Him with the Sovereign of the Universe. But notice another word used of Jesus in 1Tim 6:15, the " Only Potentate" . This word in Greek is dymastes, it stands for Ruler or Sovereign. He is here called the ONLY Potentate/Sovereign. By using the word ONLY, Jesus is identified as the Only Sovereign. Notice again at the end of verse 16, Jesus is worshipped. It says: " To him be honor and eternal might. Amen". This is worshipful praise to Jesus. Let's see another worship to Jesus. 3. Jesus is worshipped. JWs teach that Jesus can be called a God, but that that God is just a title, not that he is worshipped. To prove Jesus Deity, let's start with the Old Testament. Before Jericho was conquered, one unusual soldier appeared. Josh 5:14 reports: "To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” 15 The prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so." JWs view this person to be Jesus. Notice verse 14, it says Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated. Many translations used "worship" to translate "prostrate". Of course bowing one's face to the ground doesn't always mean worship, but there is a reason to say that here, it is worship, and that NWT was being biased. Why? In verse 15, Jesus, who is the Prince of Jehovah's Army didn't stop him from bowing, he even told him to remove his sandals for where he was standing is a holy place. This means that Joshua's bowing has changed to the level of worship. He is like in the presence of God Himself or the Ark of the covenant. Jesus is worshipped in Isaiah 6:1-3At John 12: 41, John made a striking statement. We read: 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. JWs agree that this glory refers to what Isaiah saw at Isaiah 6:1-3. We read: "In the year that King Uz·ziʹah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two. 3 And one called to the other: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The whole earth is filled with his glory. " JWs do not see this as a proof of Christ deity, because they say that there are more than one persons here whom Isaiah saw their glory. They say that Jesus is equally there alongside Jehovah in the throne. (John 17:5) They prove their point by saying that in verse 8 of this chapter 6, Jehovah said " Who shall I send, Who will go for US". So they reason that the word US there is the same as US we find in Gen 1:26; 3:22 in reference to Jesus. This doesn't match. But friends, even if that were true, it doesn't still remove the fact that Jesus is here worshipped. Notice what was said of this person on the throne. By shouting holy Holy Holy is Jehovah", that is praise assigned to only Jehovah ( Rev 4:8 will convince you). Notice also that this is holiness to the superlative degree. The Insight on the Scriptures (a book produced by JWs) says of this holiness: "Those in the heavens are shown declaring: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies,” attributing to him holiness, cleanness in the superlative degree." So if they insist that Jesus was also included in what Isaiah saw on the throne, it shows that Jesus is indeed a Deity just as Jehovah is. Isn't that wonderful?. How can all the Angels sing this praise to Jesus, if he was in fact a creature like them? Isn't that a creature worship? Now you're seeing why I reconsidered this subject of Trinity. But let's look at that Isaiah 6:1-3 without the jWs bias, and we will appreciate that Jesus is in fact that one being seen here by Isaiah. John 12:41 says Isaiah saw his (Jesus) glory, and "spoke about him, not Jehovah, mind you. So who did Isaiah see? Isaiah answers: " I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne." The final sentence says the whole earth is filled with his glorySo John is saying that Isaiah saw his glory and spoke about him. Who Isaiah saw and spoke about is Jesus. in my future article, we will see that scriptures used for God is applied to Jesus. But now Isaiah wrote mentioned only Jehovah, but John says he saw jesus. Some have concluded that this means that they are the same person, but that's not accurate. Isaiah seeing his glory shows that Isaiah saw Jesus, but Isaiah calls him Jehovah. Why? Because they are of the same nature. Remember that Joshua seeing Jesus as he appeared as the Commander of Jehovah's Army. Now at Josh 6:2, that Jesus is referred to as Jehovah. (Compare John 17:12; Exod 23:21). This is another proof that they are of the same essence. We see this also in Psalm 102:25-27, where Paul applied what one would understand as praise to God the Father to Jesus. (Heb 1:10-12) There is no contradiction if we see that they share similar nature. You can switch the the glory you give to each of them and still be correct. At Isaiah Chapter 48:11, Jehovah says He gives his glory to no one else. But at John 17:5, Jesus says he had always shared in His father's glory. Contradiction? No. This can only be the case because they are of the same nature. If you worship God, Jesus also shares in that glory. The same if you worship Jesus. But what further proof do I have that Jesus is in fact worshipped? Next week Thursday, let us now move to the New Testament scriptures proper to prove that Jesus receives worship. So far, we have proved that Jesus is not created, and that viewed from the Old Testament scriptures, he must be of the same nature as God the father, because He has the same image, He is a Universal sovereign and He is worshipped by Joshua and the Angelic Host. These are links to my previous discussion on this topic of Trinity: Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/8185855/jw-pimo-reconsiders-trinity-doctrinePart 2 https://www.nairaland.com/8192278/part-2-jw-pimo-reconsiders/2#131731691If you want to see more of my writeup about JWs theology, go to my profile and see my series on "Ministry to JWs". I have over 12 articles on their teachings. https://www.nairaland.com/sand2022/topicsTags: Aemmyjah, achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Barristter07: 6:02am On Sep 03 |
Sand2022:
So far, we have discussed the meaning of Trinity in my earlier post, and the last post I made is why Jesus cannot be said to be a creature. The main point of that post was on John 1:3, that apart from him not even one thing was made. That shows that Jesus cannot be reckoned as a creature.
Today, we are still exploring why Jesus needs to be seen as of the same nature as the father. Let's start with Genesis.
Gen 1:26-27
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them
This scripture is significant to the topic. It is a scriptural fact that we are made in God's image, not the image of a creature. Here God is revealing something, that he is not the only one involved here. There is US. then in verse 27, the bible goes further to say that God went on to create man in HIS image. In verse 26, there is US, then in verse 27, there is God, singular. This is one proof that the one who had the same image as God here must be of the same essence or nature with God. There is no way to run away from that.
To further support the point of similar nature, see how Heb 1:3 puts it:
3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."
Notice, the exact representation of his very what? Being. Take note of that word. The Greek word used here for exact representation means a facsimile of something. It means that Christ is of the same Being of God. The word is hypostasis, meaning Substance or Essence. In other words the same Nature as God. When you hear the Trinity recitation of "God from God, very God of Very God", this verse is the key to that phrase. They mean that Christ is of God's Nature. That is why in my previous article, I said that perhaps God split Himself in two, and assign role of Son to the second Facsimile of Himself.
Creating us in his image means we are able to manifest His qualities. God cannot connect His uncreated image to someone who is created. If Jesus was a creature, it will be misleading for God to say that man was created in His image, it would rather be God's image and the image of another creature that he made man. God can say that the image is "Our Image" in reference to others, if those ones are of the same Nature as himself. Being of the same nature, we can then use singular and say, we are made in God's image.
2. Jesus is a Universal Sovereign:
We know that only God is the universal sovereign. That is also the belief of Jehovah's witnesses. However, scripture shows that Jesus is viewed as the SAME Universal Sovereign as the Father. Let's see Genesis once more.
Gen 3:
22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” (NWT)
This might not appear to be a great point, but you will see what a point it is when you realize the meaning of knowledge of good and bad as taught by the witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses agrees with the position mentioned in the Jerusalem Bible (1966).
In describing what this knowledge of good and bad means, see what the Insight says:
"This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."
The teaching of JWs is that by eating of that fruit, Adam and Eve were like God to themselves. They are in effect saying that eating of that fruit is right, when the Universal Sovereign has decreed that it is wrong. That is an attack on the universal sovereign's exclusive right to determine what is right and what is wrong.
To make it simple, the phrase "knowing good and bad" means setting standard of right and wrong". And only God has that right.
Now notice that the same phrase occured at Gen 3:22, but there God is saying that he is not the only one who has the right to get standard of right and wrong. Interesting, right? See what it says:
"Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad."
This statement shows that Jesus also is a Universal Sovereign just as God is a universal sovereign. But because they are of the same essence, we don't have two universal sovereigns but one.
Another reason why Jesus is a universal sovereign.
Jesus is the king of Kings. Let's read 1 Tim 6
"to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen." (NWT) JWs view this verse as referring to Jesus.
Jesus Christ at Rev 17:14; 19:16 is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is clearly pointing to the fact that he is a universal sovereign. The Governing Body will say that this is in reference to earthly kings, that Jesus is there king. Of course, but let's inquire, for servants of Jehovah, both in heaven and on earth, who is our king? Do Angels have another King other than Jehovah? So the only king for true worshipers is Jehovah. So to even call Jesus King of kings is to equate Him with the Sovereign of the Universe.
But notice another word used of Jesus in 1Tim 6:15, the "Only Potentate" . This word in Greek is dymastes, it stands for Ruler or Sovereign. He is here called the ONLY Potentate/Sovereign. By using the word ONLY, Jesus is identified as the Only Sovereign.
Notice again at the end of verse 16, Jesus is worshipped. It says:
"To him be honor and eternal might. Amen".
This is worshipful praise to Jesus.
Let's see another worship to Jesus.
3. Jesus is worshipped.
JWs teach that Jesus can be called a God, but that that God is just a title, not that he is worshipped. To prove Jesus Deity, let's start with the Old Testament.
Before Jericho was conquered, one unusual soldier appeared. Josh 5:14 reports:
"To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” 15 The prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so."
JWs view this person to be Jesus. Notice verse 14, it says Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated. Many translations used "worship" to translate "prostrate". Of course bowing one's face to the ground doesn't always mean worship, but there is a reason to say that here, it is worship, and that NWT was being biased. Why? In verse 15, Jesus, who is the Prince of Jehovah's Army didn't stop him from bowing, he even told him to remove his sandals for where he was standing is a holy place. This means that Joshua's bowing has changed to the level of worship. He is like in the presence of God Himself or the Ark of the covenant.
Jesus is worshipped in Isaiah 6:1-3
At John 12: 41, John made a striking statement. We read:
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.
JWs agree that this glory refers to what Isaiah saw at Isaiah 6:1-3. We read:
"In the year that King Uz·ziʹah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two. 3 And one called to the other: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The whole earth is filled with his glory. "
JWs do not see this as a proof of Christ deity, because they say that there are more than one persons here whom Isaiah saw their glory. They say that Jesus is equally there alongside Jehovah in the throne. (John 17:5) They prove their point by saying that in verse 8 of this chapter 6, Jehovah said " Who shall I send, Who will go for US". So they reason that the word US there is the same as US we find in Gen 1:26; 3:22 in reference to Jesus. This doesn't match.
But friends, even if that were true, it doesn't still remove the fact that Jesus is here worshipped. Notice what was said of this person on the throne. By shouting holy Holy Holy is Jehovah", that is praise assigned to only Jehovah ( Rev 4:8 will convince you). Notice also that this is holiness to the superlative degree. The Insight on the Scriptures (a book produced by JWs) says of this holiness:
"Those in the heavens are shown declaring: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies,” attributing to him holiness, cleanness in the superlative degree."
So if they insist that Jesus was also included in what Isaiah saw on the throne, it shows that Jesus is indeed a Deity just as Jehovah is. Isn't that wonderful?. How can all the Angels sing this praise to Jesus, if he was in fact a creature like them? Isn't that a creature worship? Now you're seeing why I reconsidered this subject of Trinity.
But let's look at that Isaiah 6:1-3 without the jWs bias, and we will appreciate that Jesus is in fact that one being seen here by Isaiah. John 12:41 says Isaiah saw his (Jesus) glory, and "spoke about him, not Jehovah, mind you. So who did Isaiah see? Isaiah answers:
"I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne." The final sentence says the whole earth is filled with his glory
So John is saying that Isaiah saw his glory and spoke about him. Who Isaiah saw and spoke about is Jesus. in my future article, we will see that scriptures used for God is applied to Jesus. But now Isaiah wrote mentioned only Jehovah, but John says he saw jesus. Some have concluded that this means that they are the same person, but that's not accurate.
Isaiah seeing his glory shows that Isaiah saw Jesus, but Isaiah calls him Jehovah. Why? Because they are of the same nature. Remember that Joshua seeing Jesus as he appeared as the Commander of Jehovah's Army. Now at Josh 6:2, that Jesus is referred to as Jehovah. (Compare John 17:12; Exod 23:21). This is another proof that they are of the same essence. We see this also in Psalm 102:25-27, where Paul applied what one would understand as praise to God the Father to Jesus. (Heb 1:10-12) There is no contradiction if we see that they share similar nature. You can switch the the glory you give to each of them and still be correct.
At Isaiah Chapter 48:11, Jehovah says He gives his glory to no one else. But at John 17:5, Jesus says he had always shared in His father's glory. Contradiction? No. This can only be the case because they are of the same nature. If you worship God, Jesus also shares in that glory. The same if you worship Jesus.
But what further proof do I have that Jesus is in fact worshipped? Next week Thursday, let us now move to the New Testament scriptures proper to prove that Jesus receives worship.
So far, we have proved that Jesus is not created, and that viewed from the Old Testament scriptures, he must be of the same nature as God the father, because He has the same image, He is a Universal sovereign and He is worshipped by Joshua and the Angelic Host.
These are links to my previous discussion on this topic of Trinity:
Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/8185855/jw-pimo-reconsiders-trinity-doctrine
Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/8192278/part-2-jw-pimo-reconsiders/2#131731691
If you want to see more of my writeup about JWs theology, go to my profile and see my series on "Ministry to JWs". I have over 12 articles on their teachings.
https://www.nairaland.com/sand2022/topics
Tags: Aemmyjah, achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan
I agree with you that Jesus and his Father share the same nature. Here is the problem, as many as they which share this nature, ought to be included in this bracket
Before going further :
Nature means essence or substance.
" Through these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust. "
Therefore:
Do you ( Sand2022) by virtue of 2Pet 1:4, also agree that humans can become of the same essence and substance like the Divine one ?
Do you ( Sand2022) also therefore agree that this persons are in the same category and EQUAL to, the same as God, by virtue of having the same nature ? 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by achorladey: 9:32am On Sep 03 |
Barristter07:
I agree with you that Jesus and his Father share the same nature. Here is the problem, as many as they which share this nature, ought to be included in this bracket
Before going further :
Nature means essence or substance.
" Through these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust. "
Therefore:
Do you ( Sand2022) by virtue of 2Pet 1:4, also agree that humans can become of the same essence and substance like the Divine one ?
Do you ( Sand2022) also therefore agree that this persons are in the same category and EQUAL to, the same as God, by virtue of having the same nature ?
The nature the 144,000 sons literal figure started sharing in 1935 and their remnant are still on earth. 2 Likes |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Sand2022: 3:19pm On Sep 05 |
Barristter07:
I agree with you that Jesus and his Father share the same nature. Here is the problem, as many as they which share this nature, ought to be included in this bracket
Before going further :
Nature means essence or substance.
" Through these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust. "
Therefore:
Do you ( Sand2022) by virtue of 2Pet 1:4, also agree that humans can become of the same essence and substance like the Divine one ?
Do you ( Sand2022) also therefore agree that this persons are in the same category and EQUAL to, the same as God, by virtue of having the same nature ?
This nature is not the same as Divine Nature that Christ shares with the Father. No. In Heb 1, Christ is said to be the exact facsimile of God's Being - Hypostasis. And we have also seen that Christ is worshipped as God is. Also remember that in the beginning the word WAS, not the Word "is". So Christ has been there before the beginning. John 1:3 says all things were created by Christ. Not even one thing came into being without him. So he is not created and has no beginning and end. Compare 1tim 6. So the Divine Nature we are talking about here is the uncreated Nature of God. Phil 2 says Christ was in God's form before coming to earth. Only God possess this nature, so if Jesus possess it, he is God as such is worshipped. So it is no surprise that we see Jesus occupy what naturally should be Jehovah's and even to be worshipped. You don't dare give that to a mere creature. Check my Part 4 of this series. The divine nature that 2Pet has in mind is that of Christ's glory. Christ was flesh when on earth and later got a glorified. That is what the anointed will get. They won't get what Christ is before his humanity. It's not even possible. See how the Insight comments on it: Insight under Nature: That this is a sharing with Christ in his glory as spirit persons, Peter shows in his first letter: “God . . . gave us a new birth [a·na·gen·neʹsas he·masʹ, “having generated us again”] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.” (1Pe 1:3, 4)" 2 Likes |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by MightySparrow: 10:25pm On Sep 05 |
Sand2022:
So far, we have discussed the meaning of Trinity in my earlier post, and the last post I made is why Jesus cannot be said to be a creature. The main point of that post was on John 1:3, that apart from him not even one thing was made. That shows that Jesus cannot be reckoned as a creature.
Today, we are still exploring why Jesus needs to be seen as of the same nature as the father. Let's start with Genesis.
Gen 1:26-27
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them
This scripture is significant to the topic. It is a scriptural fact that we are made in God's image, not the image of a creature. Here God is revealing something, that he is not the only one involved here. There is US. then in verse 27, the bible goes further to say that God went on to create man in HIS image. In verse 26, there is US, then in verse 27, there is God, singular. This is one proof that the one who had the same image as God here must be of the same essence or nature with God. There is no way to run away from that.
To further support the point of similar nature, see how Heb 1:3 puts it:
3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."
Notice, the exact representation of his very what? Being. Take note of that word. The Greek word used here for exact representation means a facsimile of something. It means that Christ is of the same Being of God. The word is hypostasis, meaning Substance or Essence. In other words the same Nature as God. When you hear the Trinity recitation of "God from God, very God of Very God", this verse is the key to that phrase. They mean that Christ is of God's Nature. That is why in my previous article, I said that perhaps God split Himself in two, and assign role of Son to the second Facsimile of Himself.
Creating us in his image means we are able to manifest His qualities. God cannot connect His uncreated image to someone who is created. If Jesus was a creature, it will be misleading for God to say that man was created in His image, it would rather be God's image and the image of another creature that he made man. God can say that the image is "Our Image" in reference to others, if those ones are of the same Nature as himself. Being of the same nature, we can then use singular and say, we are made in God's image.
2. Jesus is a Universal Sovereign:
We know that only God is the universal sovereign. That is also the belief of Jehovah's witnesses. However, scripture shows that Jesus is viewed as the SAME Universal Sovereign as the Father. Let's see Genesis once more.
Gen 3:
22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” (NWT)
This might not appear to be a great point, but you will see what a point it is when you realize the meaning of knowledge of good and bad as taught by the witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses agrees with the position mentioned in the Jerusalem Bible (1966).
In describing what this knowledge of good and bad means, see what the Insight says:
"This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."
The teaching of JWs is that by eating of that fruit, Adam and Eve were like God to themselves. They are in effect saying that eating of that fruit is right, when the Universal Sovereign has decreed that it is wrong. That is an attack on the universal sovereign's exclusive right to determine what is right and what is wrong.
To make it simple, the phrase "knowing good and bad" means setting standard of right and wrong". And only God has that right.
Now notice that the same phrase occured at Gen 3:22, but there God is saying that he is not the only one who has the right to get standard of right and wrong. Interesting, right? See what it says:
"Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad."
This statement shows that Jesus also is a Universal Sovereign just as God is a universal sovereign. But because they are of the same essence, we don't have two universal sovereigns but one.
Another reason why Jesus is a universal sovereign.
Jesus is the king of Kings. Let's read 1 Tim 6
"to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen." (NWT) JWs view this verse as referring to Jesus.
Jesus Christ at Rev 17:14; 19:16 is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is clearly pointing to the fact that he is a universal sovereign. The Governing Body will say that this is in reference to earthly kings, that Jesus is there king. Of course, but let's inquire, for servants of Jehovah, both in heaven and on earth, who is our king? Do Angels have another King other than Jehovah? So the only king for true worshipers is Jehovah. So to even call Jesus King of kings is to equate Him with the Sovereign of the Universe.
But notice another word used of Jesus in 1Tim 6:15, the "Only Potentate" . This word in Greek is dymastes, it stands for Ruler or Sovereign. He is here called the ONLY Potentate/Sovereign. By using the word ONLY, Jesus is identified as the Only Sovereign.
Notice again at the end of verse 16, Jesus is worshipped. It says:
"To him be honor and eternal might. Amen".
This is worshipful praise to Jesus.
Let's see another worship to Jesus.
3. Jesus is worshipped.
JWs teach that Jesus can be called a God, but that that God is just a title, not that he is worshipped. To prove Jesus Deity, let's start with the Old Testament.
Before Jericho was conquered, one unusual soldier appeared. Josh 5:14 reports:
"To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” 15 The prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so."
JWs view this person to be Jesus. Notice verse 14, it says Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated. Many translations used "worship" to translate "prostrate". Of course bowing one's face to the ground doesn't always mean worship, but there is a reason to say that here, it is worship, and that NWT was being biased. Why? In verse 15, Jesus, who is the Prince of Jehovah's Army didn't stop him from bowing, he even told him to remove his sandals for where he was standing is a holy place. This means that Joshua's bowing has changed to the level of worship. He is like in the presence of God Himself or the Ark of the covenant.
Jesus is worshipped in Isaiah 6:1-3
At John 12: 41, John made a striking statement. We read:
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.
JWs agree that this glory refers to what Isaiah saw at Isaiah 6:1-3. We read:
"In the year that King Uz·ziʹah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two. 3 And one called to the other: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The whole earth is filled with his glory. "
JWs do not see this as a proof of Christ deity, because they say that there are more than one persons here whom Isaiah saw their glory. They say that Jesus is equally there alongside Jehovah in the throne. (John 17:5) They prove their point by saying that in verse 8 of this chapter 6, Jehovah said " Who shall I send, Who will go for US". So they reason that the word US there is the same as US we find in Gen 1:26; 3:22 in reference to Jesus. This doesn't match.
But friends, even if that were true, it doesn't still remove the fact that Jesus is here worshipped. Notice what was said of this person on the throne. By shouting holy Holy Holy is Jehovah", that is praise assigned to only Jehovah ( Rev 4:8 will convince you). Notice also that this is holiness to the superlative degree. The Insight on the Scriptures (a book produced by JWs) says of this holiness:
"Those in the heavens are shown declaring: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies,” attributing to him holiness, cleanness in the superlative degree."
So if they insist that Jesus was also included in what Isaiah saw on the throne, it shows that Jesus is indeed a Deity just as Jehovah is. Isn't that wonderful?. How can all the Angels sing this praise to Jesus, if he was in fact a creature like them? Isn't that a creature worship? Now you're seeing why I reconsidered this subject of Trinity.
But let's look at that Isaiah 6:1-3 without the jWs bias, and we will appreciate that Jesus is in fact that one being seen here by Isaiah. John 12:41 says Isaiah saw his (Jesus) glory, and "spoke about him, not Jehovah, mind you. So who did Isaiah see? Isaiah answers:
"I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne." The final sentence says the whole earth is filled with his glory
So John is saying that Isaiah saw his glory and spoke about him. Who Isaiah saw and spoke about is Jesus. in my future article, we will see that scriptures used for God is applied to Jesus. But now Isaiah wrote mentioned only Jehovah, but John says he saw jesus. Some have concluded that this means that they are the same person, but that's not accurate.
Isaiah seeing his glory shows that Isaiah saw Jesus, but Isaiah calls him Jehovah. Why? Because they are of the same nature. Remember that Joshua seeing Jesus as he appeared as the Commander of Jehovah's Army. Now at Josh 6:2, that Jesus is referred to as Jehovah. (Compare John 17:12; Exod 23:21). This is another proof that they are of the same essence. We see this also in Psalm 102:25-27, where Paul applied what one would understand as praise to God the Father to Jesus. (Heb 1:10-12) There is no contradiction if we see that they share similar nature. You can switch the the glory you give to each of them and still be correct.
At Isaiah Chapter 48:11, Jehovah says He gives his glory to no one else. But at John 17:5, Jesus says he had always shared in His father's glory. Contradiction? No. This can only be the case because they are of the same nature. If you worship God, Jesus also shares in that glory. The same if you worship Jesus.
But what further proof do I have that Jesus is in fact worshipped? Next week Thursday, let us now move to the New Testament scriptures proper to prove that Jesus receives worship.
So far, we have proved that Jesus is not created, and that viewed from the Old Testament scriptures, he must be of the same nature as God the father, because He has the same image, He is a Universal sovereign and He is worshipped by Joshua and the Angelic Host.
These are links to my previous discussion on this topic of Trinity:
Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/8185855/jw-pimo-reconsiders-trinity-doctrine
Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/8192278/part-2-jw-pimo-reconsiders/2#131731691
If you want to see more of my writeup about JWs theology, go to my profile and see my series on "Ministry to JWs". I have over 12 articles on their teachings.
https://www.nairaland.com/sand2022/topics
Tags: Aemmyjah, achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan
Nice one Sír. One book I have read severally is Gospel according to John. The book is very weird about reporting Jesus. Mind you, the Bible was not written with verses, therefore, I read as if the verses are not there. If you consider the presentation from chapter 14 through to 16. I can deduce that Jesus cannot be less than divine. He claimed to have come out of the Father and came into the world. John.16.27 - For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
John.16.28 - I came [/b]forth f rom the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John.16.29 - His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. John.16.31 - Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? John.16.32 - Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. He made the disciples to believe and confess it. He now proceeded to be crucified. On the other , what binds God and man is covenant, which is not done by proxy. I think that is why Jesus' prophetic name is Immanuẹl - God with us. I have not seen where the divinity of Jesus is denied in my own Bible. Thanks 2 Likes |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Barristter07: 8:18am On Sep 06 |
Sand2022:
This nature is not the same as Divine Nature that Christ shares with the Father. No. In Heb 1, Christ is said to be the exact facsimile of God's Being - Hypostasis. And we have also seen that Christ is worshipped as God is. Also remember that in the beginning the word WAS, not the Word "is". So Christ has been there before the beginning. John 1:3 says all things were created by Christ. Not even one thing came into being without him. So he is not created and has no beginning and end. Compare 1tim 6.
So the Divine Nature we are talking about here is the uncreated Nature of God. Phil 2 says Christ was in God's form before coming to earth. Only God possess this nature, so if Jesus possess it, he is God as such is worshipped. So it is no surprise that we see Jesus occupy what naturally should be Jehovah's and even to be worshipped. You don't dare give that to a mere creature. Check my Part 4 of this series.
The divine nature that 2Pet has in mind is that of Christ's glory. Christ was flesh when on earth and later got a glorified. That is what the anointed will get. They won't get what Christ is before his humanity. It's not even possible. See how the Insight comments on it:
Insight under Nature:
That this is a sharing with Christ in his glory as spirit persons, Peter shows in his first letter: “God . . . gave us a new birth [a·na·gen·neʹsas he·masʹ, “having generated us again”] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.” (1Pe 1:3, 4)"
Divine Nature is God's nature. The word Divine mean " belonging to God " . Do you lack basic knowledge of English language? You know the implication hence the desperate attempt to separate. Now more laughable is the "Gods form" . Form means how something or someone exist. What is God's form ? Joh. 4:24 . Spirit form. Are there not millions of Angels with Gods form ? |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Emusan(m): 11:41am On Sep 06 |
Barristter07:
Divine Nature is God's nature. The word Divine mean " belonging to God " . Do you lack basic knowledge of English language? You're the one who lacks the very basic knowledge of English language. You know the implication hence the desperate attempt to separate. Where did he separate it? Peter used PARTAKE which means NOT IN FULL Now more laughable is the "Gods form" . Form means how something or someone exist. What is God's form ? Joh. 4:24 . Spirit form.
Are there not millions of Angels with Gods form ? This is pure ignorance! If @underlined is true, it means those million of angels or billion of angels are also GOD. It's like saying since everything in the physical world are grouped under the name PHYSICAL then they all have the same FORM AS HUMAN. Apostle Paul explained this in 1 Corin 15 take your time to read it without holding your Watchtower or Awake 1 Like |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Barristter07: 7:07pm On Sep 06 |
Emusan:
You're the one who lacks the very basic knowledge of English language.
Where did he separate it?
Peter used PARTAKE which means NOT IN FULL
This is pure ignorance!
If @underlined is true, it means those million of angels or billion of angels are also GOD.
It's like saying since everything in the physical world are grouped under the name PHYSICAL then they all have the same FORM AS HUMAN.
Apostle Paul explained this in 1 Corin 15 take your time to read it without holding your Watchtower or Awake
To partake of something is to be FULLY that thing. Heb 2:14 speak of you and I as partakers of humanity. Are we half human?
So if Nature is the basis on which you lots describe who is God, it means all the partakers of Divine nature are FULLY GOD TOO |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Emusan(m): 7:17pm On Sep 06 |
Barristter07:
To partake of something is to be FULLY that thing. Heb 2:14 speak of you and I as partakers of humanity. Are we half human? Smile.... No! The verse is talking about the Son be a partaker of flesh and blood yet still remains Divine. So, to partake is not in FULL. STOP THE LIE. The word translated as PARTAKER IN 2 PET 1:4 was used several times in fact it was used when the believers were said to be PARTAKER OF Christ suffering. I don't know any believer who was tortured or crown with Thorn or nailed to the cross with Christ. So if Nature is the basis on which you lots describe who is God, it means all the partakers of Divine nature are FULLY GOD TOO Yes Nature is the basis because NO ONE I REPEAT NO ONE HAS THE NATURE OF GOD, TO DO SO MEANS THE PERSON IS ALSO GOD. No! They are PARTAKER or SHARER as some version put it, the word used for Christ is 'ALL THE FULLNESS OF DEITY' spot the difference. |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Youareforgiven(m): 7:50pm On Sep 06 |
Barristter07:
Divine Nature is God's nature. The word Divine mean " belonging to God " . Do you lack basic knowledge of English language?
You know the implication hence the desperate attempt to separate. Now more laughable is the "Gods form" . Form means how something or someone exist. What is God's form ? Joh. 4:24 . Spirit form.
Are there not millions of Angels with Gods form ?
Let me come in here. Yes, we in Christ Jesus will be like God and Christ Jesus. In us God has begotten sons. It is hard for our human mind to take. The God nature has become our nature in Christ Jesus. The God essence has become our essence. You can call it blasphemy all you want. But that will not change the truth. When Christ comes comes we shall fully transform into how He is right now. We shall no longer call Him God, but Father for He has begotten us forever. We have been birthed into the Elohim family through Christ Jesus. To the canal mind, this is blasphemy but to the Holy Spirit filled, this is the whole plan of God. |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Youareforgiven(m): 7:57pm On Sep 06 |
Sand2022:
This nature is not the same as Divine Nature that Christ shares with the Father. No. In Heb 1, Christ is said to be the exact facsimile of God's Being - Hypostasis. And we have also seen that Christ is worshipped as God is. Also remember that in the beginning the word WAS, not the Word "is". So Christ has been there before the beginning. John 1:3 says all things were created by Christ. Not even one thing came into being without him. So he is not created and has no beginning and end. Compare 1tim 6.
So the Divine Nature we are talking about here is the uncreated Nature of God. Phil 2 says Christ was in God's form before coming to earth. Only God possess this nature, so if Jesus possess it, he is God as such is worshipped. So it is no surprise that we see Jesus occupy what naturally should be Jehovah's and even to be worshipped. You don't dare give that to a mere creature. Check my Part 4 of this series.
The divine nature that 2Pet has in mind is that of Christ's glory. Christ was flesh when on earth and later got a glorified. That is what the anointed will get. They won't get what Christ is before his humanity. It's not even possible. See how the Insight comments on it:
Insight under Nature:
That this is a sharing with Christ in his glory as spirit persons, Peter shows in his first letter: “God . . . gave us a new birth [a·na·gen·neʹsas he·masʹ, “having generated us again”] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.” (1Pe 1:3, 4)"
It is the same nature... Those who have Holy Spirit in them have become partakers of the divine nature. If it is not the same nature then, we have not the Holy Spirit. The only difference between we and Jesus Christ is that we were giving but Jesus was not giving. In truth, He is the giver. |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Janosky: 11:23pm On Sep 06 |
Sand2022:
So far, we have discussed the meaning of Trinity in my earlier post, and the last post I made is why Jesus cannot be said to be a creature. The main point of that post was on John 1:3, that apart from him not even one thing was made. That shows that Jesus cannot be reckoned as a creature.
Let me itemize the points expressed here.
(1)
Two questions the OP should address:
** @ John 1:3 & Revelation 3:14, John 5:26, did John claim that Jesus is the creator?
Answer is No !
** Did John write that Jesus Christ granted life to God his Father?
Answer is No !
Because Jesus is NOT the creator, Revelation 3:14.
"But the beginning of the creation by the God"
The revelation the God handed to Jesus.
Thereafter ,Jesus gave to John the apostle Through (Same Greek dia = instrumentality ,medium) an angel.
Revelation 3:14. Hebrew 1:2 & John 5:26 interprets John 1:3. Scripture interpret scripture.
The angel of Revelation 1:1 is not the Author of Revelation.
Therefore,@ John 1:3 Jesus is not the creator.(2)
Everybody knows that Sand2022 came from his Father.
This point is enough to understand John 8:42.
God his Father is the Source, giving life to his only begotten son, Jesus Christ John 5:26. Revelation 3:14, the first born of God and Adam/Eve the last born of God.(3)
The meaning of the Greek word dia= (instrumentality , medium, Agency ) is the same @ John 1:3 & Acts 3:18.
John 1:3.Hebrew 1:2. = through His Son Jesus.
Acts 3:18 through the prophets.
The God Almighty did John 1:3/Hebrew 1:2 through His Son.
The God Almighty did Acts 3:18 through the prophets.
Understand that Jesus is also a prophet. Acts 3:18,23.
Shalom. 
|
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Janosky: 11:45pm On Sep 06 |
Sand2022:
Today, we are still exploring why Jesus needs to be seen as of the same nature as the father. Let's start with Genesis.
Gen 1:26-27
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them
This scripture is significant to the topic. It is a scriptural fact that we are made in God's image, not the image of a creature. Here God is revealing something, that he is not the only one involved here. There is US. then in verse 27, the bible goes further to say that God went on to create man in HIS image. In verse 26, there is US, then in verse 27, there is God, singular. This is one proof that the one who had the same image as God here must be of the same essence or nature with God. There is no way to run away from that.
Everybody dwelling in the family house has the same nature and essence, same thing as a toddler in the house.
Every spirit being in heaven (the house of spirits) has the same nature and essence.
I'd like the OP to explain his point of view about Job 38:4-7 viz a viz Genesis 1:26.
Every being applauded after God created man, these spirit beings dwell in the spirit realm.
Therefore, the expression "US" @ Genesis 1:26 includes them
Jehovah told Job those spirit beings saw & observed man's creation.
Oga,Listen to Jehovah not Trinitarians.  |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Janosky: 12:12am On Sep 07 |
Sand2022:
3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."
Notice, the exact representation of his very what? Being. Take note of that word. The Greek word used here for exact representation means a facsimile of something. It means that Christ is of the same Being of God. The word is hypostasis, meaning Substance or Essence. In other words the same Nature as God. When you hear the Trinity recitation of "God from God, very God of Very God", this verse is the key to that phrase. They mean that Christ is of God's Nature. That is why in my previous article, I said that perhaps God split Himself in two, and assign role of Son to the second Facsimile of Himself.
Creating us in his image means we are able to manifest His qualities. God cannot connect His uncreated image to someone who is created. If Jesus was a creature, it will be misleading for God to say that man was created in His image, it would rather be God's image and the image of another creature that he made man. God can say that the image is "Our Image" in reference to others, if those ones are of the same Nature as himself. Being of the same nature, we can then use singular and say, we are made in God's image.
Every child is the exact representation of the being that his Father/mother (or parents) is.
The same substance, essence, nature etc.
What we reference as "spitting image".
Every spirit creature in heaven is godlike - same substance, essence, nature etc. Psalm 8:5
Jesus is the spitting image of God his Father.
The spiritual or heavenly realm is superior to the physical realm.
Jesus left the spiritual realm for his earthly assignment.
Everybody exists in God's image, that's enough evidence that man & Jesus are creatures.
Sand2022 : That is why in my previous article, I said that perhaps God split Himself in two, and assign role of Son to the second Facsimile of Himself.
Why can't Sand2022 support his theoretical conjecture with the holy scriptures?
E get why
Oga is running far, very fast away from the truth written by John the apostle @John 5:26 & Revelation 3:14.
Oga,Why is every first BORN child (boy or girl) the spitting image of their Father?
Jesus Christ is the first born of God, Hebrew 1:6 & Colossians 1:15. John 5:26 .
|
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Janosky: 1:16am On Sep 07 |
Sand2022:
2. Jesus is a Universal Sovereign:
We know that only God is the universal sovereign. That is also the belief of Jehovah's witnesses. However, scripture shows that Jesus is viewed as the SAME Universal Sovereign as the Father. Let's see Genesis once more.
Gen 3:
22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” (NWT)
This might not appear to be a great point, but you will see what a point it is when you realize the meaning of knowledge of good and bad as taught by the witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses agrees with the position mentioned in the Jerusalem Bible (1966).
In describing what this knowledge of good and bad means, see what the Insight says:
"This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."
The teaching of JWs is that by eating of that fruit, Adam and Eve were like God to themselves. They are in effect saying that eating of that fruit is right, when the Universal Sovereign has decreed that it is wrong. That is an attack on the universal sovereign's exclusive right to determine what is right and what is wrong.
To make it simple, the phrase "knowing good and bad" means setting standard of right and wrong". And only God has that right.
Now notice that the same phrase occured at Gen 3:22, but there God is saying that he is not the only one who has the right to get standard of right and wrong. Interesting, right? See what it says:
"Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad."
Angels too exercise that right.
They knew & where present when Jehovah made Adam.
Job 38:4-7.
From your own Bible, they have become like God.
Job 38:4-7 & Genesis 1:26, Jehovah is right.
The word "US" @ Genesis 3:5,22 includes angels.
Trinitarians are wrong. Very wrong.Sand2022:
Another reason why Jesus is a universal sovereign.
Jesus is the king of Kings. Let's read 1 Tim 6
"to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen." (NWT) JWs view this verse as referring to Jesus.
Jesus Christ at Rev 17:14; 19:16 is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is clearly pointing to the fact that he is a universal sovereign. The Governing Body will say that this is in reference to earthly kings, that Jesus is there king. Of course, but let's inquire, for servants of Jehovah, both in heaven and on earth, who is our king? Do Angels have another King other than Jehovah? So the only king for true worshipers is Jehovah. So to even call Jesus King of kings is to equate Him with the Sovereign of the Universe.
But notice another word used of Jesus in 1Tim 6:15, the "Only Potentate" . This word in Greek is dymastes, it stands for Ruler or Sovereign. He is here called the ONLY Potentate/Sovereign. By using the word ONLY, Jesus is identified as the Only Sovereign.
Notice again at the end of verse 16, Jesus is worshipped. It says:
"To him be honor and eternal might. Amen".
This is worshipful praise to Jesus.
Let's see another worship to Jesus.
According to Jesus Christ @ John 17:7, who gave Jesus those titles at 1 Timothy 6:14-17 & Matthew 28:19?
You honor your parents, does that mean you worship them?Sand2022:
3. Jesus is worshipped.
JWs teach that Jesus can be called a God, but that that God is just a title, not that he is worshipped. To prove Jesus Deity, let's start with the Old Testament.
Before Jericho was conquered, one unusual soldier appeared. Josh 5:14 reports:
"To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” 15 The prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so."
JWs view this person to be Jesus. Notice verse 14, it says Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated. Many translations used "worship" to translate "prostrate". Of course bowing one's face to the ground doesn't always mean worship, but there is a reason to say that here, it is worship, and that NWT was being biased. Why? In verse 15, Jesus, who is the Prince of Jehovah's Army didn't stop him from bowing, he even told him to remove his sandals for where he was standing is a holy place. This means that Joshua's bowing has changed to the level of worship. He is like in the presence of God Himself or the Ark of the covenant.
Oga,You are stretching your imagination very far .
From heaven What is the command Jesus handed down to John @ Revelation 19:10?
@ Matthew 4:10 did you see the same command given to Matthew to pen down?
"Worship the God his Father."
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| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Janosky: 2:59am On Sep 07 |
Sand2022:
Jesus is worshipped in Isaiah 6:1-3
At John 12: 41, John made a striking statement. We read:
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.
JWs agree that this glory refers to what Isaiah saw at Isaiah 6:1-3. We read:
"In the year that King Uz·ziʹah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two. 3 And one called to the other: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The whole earth is filled with his glory. "
JWs do not see this as a proof of Christ deity, because they say that there are more than one persons here whom Isaiah saw their glory. They say that Jesus is equally there alongside Jehovah in the throne. (John 17:5) They prove their point by saying that in verse 8 of this chapter 6, Jehovah said " Who shall I send, Who will go for US". So they reason that the word US there is the same as US we find in Gen 1:26; 3:22 in reference to Jesus. This doesn't match Isaiah 6:1-3 Isaiah saw Jehovah God on His throne. Jesus was not on the throne of Isaiah 6:1-3. Jesus was given a throne after his ascension to heaven. Go & study 1 Corinthians 15:24-27. @ Isaiah 6:8, the word "US" includes the prophet Isaiah because he was granted access to the divine assembly of Psalm 82:1 presided by Jehovah & Isaiah participated by acceptance of the assignment to "Go for US." Us @ Genesis 1:26 includes angels at Job 38:4-7. They were in God's image before Adam was created . Sand2022:
But friends, even if that were true, it doesn't still remove the fact that Jesus is here worshipped. Notice what was said of this person on the throne. By shouting holy Holy Holy is Jehovah", that is praise assigned to only Jehovah ( Rev 4:8 will convince you). Notice also that this is holiness to the superlative degree. The Insight on the Scriptures (a book produced by JWs) says of this holiness:
"Those in the heavens are shown declaring: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies,” attributing to him holiness, cleanness in the superlative degree."
So if they insist that Jesus was also included in what Isaiah saw on the throne, it shows that Jesus is indeed a Deity just as Jehovah is. Isn't that wonderful?. How can all the Angels sing this praise to Jesus, if he was in fact a creature like them? Isn't that a creature worship? Now you're seeing why I reconsidered this subject of Trinity.
@Psalm 110:1 & 1 Corinthians 15:24-27, proven that Jesus Christ no get any throne @ Isaiah 6:1-3. The Jews& heavenly angels as well as Jesus worshipped Jehovah @ Revelation 3:12 & Revelation 19:10 You have claimed that Jehovah split himself into two. Yet, making the spurious claim that he is Jesus. Confused polytheist Sand2022:
But let's look at that Isaiah 6:1-3 without the jWs bias, and we will appreciate that Jesus is in fact that one being seen here by Isaiah. John 12:41 says Isaiah saw his (Jesus) glory, and "spoke about him, not Jehovah, mind you. So who did Isaiah see? Isaiah answers:
"I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne." The final sentence says the whole earth is filled with his glory
So John is saying that Isaiah saw his glory and spoke about him. Who Isaiah saw and spoke about is Jesus. in my future article, we will see that scriptures used for God is applied to Jesus. But now Isaiah wrote mentioned only Jehovah, but John says he saw jesus. Some have concluded that this means that they are the same person, but that's not accurate.
Isaiah seeing his glory shows that Isaiah saw Jesus, but Isaiah calls him Jehovah. Why? Because they are of the same nature. Remember that Joshua seeing Jesus as he appeared as the Commander of Jehovah's Army.
Sand2022 post: " But let's look at that Isaiah 6:1-3 without the jWs bias, and we will appreciate that Jesus is in fact that one being seen here by Isaiah."
"They are of the same nature"
"Some have concluded that this means that they are the same person, but that's not accurate"
Confused polytheist . Sand2022:
Now at Josh 6:2, that Jesus is referred to as Jehovah. (Compare John 17:12; Exod 23:21). This is another proof that they are of the same essence. We see this also in Psalm 102:25-27, where Paul applied what one would understand as praise to God the Father to Jesus. (Heb 1:10-12) There is no contradiction if we see that they share similar nature. You can switch the the glory you give to each of them and still be correct.
Revelation 3:21, the same glory is shared by the 144000 heirs sitting on the heavenly throne.
Oga,By your logic, you made them your deities, all sharing the throne.
Psalm 102:24-27 & revelation 22:16, is Jesus the God of David?
Trinitarians are confused polytheists.Sand2022:
At Isaiah Chapter 48:11, Jehovah says He gives his glory to no one else. But at John 17:5, Jesus says he had always shared in His father's glory. Contradiction? No. This can only be the case because they are of the same nature. If you worship God, Jesus also shares in that glory. The same if you worship Jesus.
But what further proof do I have that Jesus is in fact worshipped? Next week Thursday, let us now move to the New Testament scriptures proper to prove that Jesus receives worship.
So far, we have proved that Jesus is not created, and that viewed from the Old Testament scriptures, he must be of the same nature as God the father, because He has the same image, He is a Universal sovereign and He is worshipped by Joshua and the Angelic Host.
These are links to my previous discussion on this topic of Trinity:
Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/8185855/jw-pimo-reconsiders-trinity-doctrine
Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/8192278/part-2-jw-pimo-reconsiders/2#131731691
If you want to see more of my writeup about JWs theology, go to my profile and see my series on "Ministry to JWs". I have over 12 articles on their teachings.
https://www.nairaland.com/sand2022/topics
Tags: Aemmyjah, achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan
Revelation 19:10, the instruction received from heaven is worship the God.
@ John 1:1 & Acts 3:13, is the God Jesus?
Shuoooo !
Mbanu !!!
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| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by johnw47: 3:16am On Sep 07 |
Gen 1:26 Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, ^^ God was speaking to the Word, Who with God made all that was made, john 1:3 the Word is the only begotten of God, God bought the Word forth from Himself (the Word Who became Jesus is personified as wisdom in proverbs) all other sons (the saved) are adopted God bringing the Word forth from Himself is described similarly to birth: Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; bought forth חוּל chul or חִיל chil (296d); a prim. root; to whirl, dance, writhe: — anguish (6), becomes weak waiting (1), birth to you in pain (1), born (1), brings forth (1), brought forth (4), burst (1), calve (1), calving (1), danced (1), fall (1), gave you birth (1), gave birth (2), giving birth (1), labor (1), quaked (1), shakes (2), swirl down (1), take part (1), travailed (4), tremble (5), trembled (1), turned (1), wait (1), wait patiently (1), waited (2), whirl (1), whirling (1), wounded (2), wounds (1), writhe (2), writhe in anguish (1), writhe in pain (1), writhed (2), writhes (2), writhes in pain (1). Janosky:
God his Father is the Source, giving life to his only begotten son, Jesus Christ John 5:26. Revelation 3:14, the first born of God and Adam/Eve the last born of God. lost fraud jw janosky adam and eve are not literally born of God, they are made/created God made adam from the dust of the earth, God made eve from adam's rib Gen_2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Gen_2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. when the Word became Man, again He was literally and miraculously born of God this time in the flesh, the only begotten Son of God: Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. the Word; born of God - Spirit Jesus; born of God - Flesh 1 Like |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Janosky: 3:34am On Sep 07 |
Sand2022:
This nature is not the same as Divine Nature that Christ shares with the Father. No. In Heb 1, Christ is said to be the exact facsimile of God's Being - Hypostasis. And we have also seen that Christ is worshipped as God is. Also remember that in the beginning the word WAS, not the Word "is". So Christ has been there before the beginning. John 1:3 says all things were created by Christ. Not even one thing came into being without him. So he is not created and has no beginning and end. Compare 1tim 6.
So the Divine Nature we are talking about here is the uncreated Nature of God. Phil 2 says Christ was in God's [b]form before coming to earth. Only God possess this nature, so if Jesus possess it,[/b] he is God as such is worshipped. So it is no surprise that we see Jesus occupy what naturally should be Jehovah's and even to be worshipped. You don't dare give that to a mere creature. Check my Part 4 of this series.
The divine nature that 2Pet has in mind is that of Christ's glory. Christ was flesh when on earth and later got a glorified. That is what the anointed will get. They won't get what Christ is before his humanity. It's not even possible. See how the Insight comments on it:
Insight under Nature:
That this is a sharing with Christ in his glory as spirit persons, Peter shows in his first letter: “God . . . gave us a new birth [a·na·gen·neʹsas he·masʹ, “having generated us again”] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.” (1Pe 1:3, 4)"
Oga, angels in heaven are in God's form or in human form?
Oga, how come you TWISTING the meaning of "divine nature" in Phillipians 2:6?
Nah Phillipians 2:7. Psalm 8:5 (Christ left the glory of spirit persons, to become lower than angels).
. John 17:4-5,22,24 & 2 Peter 1:4 catch up with you.
Christ glory that Peter had in mind is the same glory that God his Father shared with Christ Jesus- the glory of spirit persons.
Phillipians 2:7. Psalm 8:5, John 17:4, did Christ left the glory of spirits to glorify God on earth?
Yes?
John 17:5. Did Jesus beg to get back the glory of spirit persons?
Yes?
John 17:22,24 "I have given them the glory that you have given me"
Is that glory of spirit persons given to the disciples, partakers of divine nature?
Yes.
Trinity nah scam.
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| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Janosky: 3:39am On Sep 07 |
johnw47:
Gen 1:26 Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image,
^^ God was speaking to the Word, Who with God made all that was made, john 1:3
the Word is the only begotten of God, God bought the Word forth from Himself (the Word Who became Jesus is personified as wisdom in proverbs)
all other sons (the saved) are adopted
God bringing the Word forth from Himself is described similarly to birth:
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;
bought forth
חוּל
chul or
חִיל
chil (296d); a prim. root; to whirl, dance, writhe: — anguish (6), becomes weak waiting (1), birth to you in pain (1), born (1), brings forth (1), brought forth (4), burst (1), calve (1), calving (1), danced (1), fall (1), gave you birth (1), gave birth (2), giving birth (1), labor (1), quaked (1), shakes (2), swirl down (1), take part (1), travailed (4), tremble (5), trembled (1), turned (1), wait (1), wait patiently (1), waited (2), whirl (1), whirling (1), wounded (2), wounds (1), writhe (2), writhe in anguish (1), writhe in pain (1), writhed (2), writhes (2), writhes in pain (1).
lost fraud jw janosky
adam and eve are not literally born of God, they are made/created
God made adam from the dust of the earth, God made eve from adam's rib
Gen_2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Gen_2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
when the Word became Man, again He was literally and miraculously born of God
this time in the flesh, the only begotten Son of God:
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
the Word; born of God - Spirit
Jesus; born of God - Flesh
From which realm did God bring His first born Son to the earthly realm?
Answer:
From the spiritual realm where Jesus the son was first born.
MUMU WAILING Trinitarian , Psalm 90:2, did God born the mountains?
Did you see that brought forth in your own quote of Proverbs 8:25 meaning "born (1), brings forth (1), brought forth?"
The evidence you brought exposed you.
Carry your MUMU komot from this public forum.
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| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by johnw47: 7:18am On Sep 07 |
Janosky:
From which realm did God bring His first born Son to the earthly realm?
Answer:
From the spiritual realm where Jesus the son was first born.
MUMU WAILING Trinitarian , Psalm 90:2, did God born the mountains?
Did you see that brought forth in your own quote of Proverbs 8:25 meaning "born (1), brings forth (1), brought forth?"
The evidence you brought exposed you.
Carry your MUMU komot from this public forum.
ecc_7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool lost and very dum fraud jw janosky talk about mumu, and u r a false accuser as well like the devil, of course: Rev_12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. where did i say the Word/Jesus, was not born of God, the opposite is what i said and showed with scriptures there are none so dum and confused as you false jw's it comes from habitually lying: 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.and truly dum dum, adam and eve were not literally born of God, but were made/created u reply to posts with little understanding even of what is said, oh false jw 1 Like |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Barristter07: 3:00pm On Sep 07 |
Emusan:
Smile....
No! The verse is talking about the Son be a partaker of flesh and blood yet still remains Divine.
So, to partake is not in FULL. STOP THE LIE.
The word translated as PARTAKER IN 2 PET 1:4 was used several times in fact it was used when the believers were said to be PARTAKER OF Christ suffering.
I don't know any believer who was tortured or crown with Thorn or nailed to the cross with Christ.
Yes Nature is the basis because NO ONE I REPEAT NO ONE HAS THE NATURE OF GOD, TO DO SO MEANS THE PERSON IS ALSO GOD.
No! They are PARTAKER or SHARER as some version put it, the word used for Christ is 'ALL THE FULLNESS OF DEITY' spot the difference. Partakers are FULLY GOD'S NATURE Too, I think it's high time you start adding all of them partakers of Gods divine nature, perhaps we might arrive at Millionity doctrine. obviously Trinity is wrong
"Therefore, since the children have partaken of blood and of flesh" Heb 2:14
Partake: Are we Half humans or Fully Humans ? Yes or No. |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Emusan(m): 4:11pm On Sep 07 |
Barristter07:
Partakers are FULLY GOD'S NATURE Too, I think it's high time you start adding all of them partakers of Gods divine nature, perhaps we might arrive at Millionity doctrine. obviously Trinity is wrong You can't change the meaning of a word just for saying say. PARTAKER can never be FULLY that is why some translation even used SHARED. Trinity is a well scriptural concept, that is why your father the Devil has been fighting it since the death of the Apostles and failed. "Therefore, since the children have partaken of blood and of flesh" Heb 2:14
Partake: Are we Half humans or Fully Humans ? Yes or No.
Nothing like half or full human. 1 Like |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Kingsempires(m): 4:16pm On Sep 07 |
Janosky:
Jesus Christ is the first born of God, Hebrew 1:6 & Colossians 1:15. John 5:26 .
[/b] if Jesus being first born son means he was the first creation of God den can you explain psalm 89:26-28, exodus 4;21-23 so with your explanation so God now have 3 first born son Jesus, David,and isreal Please explain your narration 2 Likes |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Kingsempires(m): 4:20pm On Sep 07 |
Janosky:
Jesus Christ is the first born of God, Hebrew 1:6 & Colossians 1:15. John 5:26 .
[/b] if Jesus being first born son means he was the first creation of God den can you explain psalm 89:26-28, exodus 4;21-23 so with your explanation so God now have 3 first born son Jesus, David,and isreal Please explain your narration 2 Likes |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Kingsempires(m): 4:27pm On Sep 07 |
Janosky:
Angels too exercise that right.
They knew & where present when Jehovah made Adam.
Job 38:4-7.
From your own Bible, they have become like God.
Job 38:4-7 & Genesis 1:26, Jehovah is right.
The word "US" @ Genesis 3:5,22 includes angels.
Trinitarians are wrong. Very wrong.
you see this one you failed it Wolfy why so you are trying to contradict
Isaiah 40:13 So you have an image of an angel not God As for me na God image I get not angel 2 Likes |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Sand2022: 5:46pm On Sep 07 |
Youareforgiven:
It is the same nature... Those who have Holy Spirit in them have become partakers of the divine nature. If it is not the same nature then, we have not the Holy Spirit. I would say so. No one can be exact facsimile of Jehovah. Jehovah's nature is uncreated. The Angels have God's spirit, but they have created nature. The only difference between we and Jesus Christ is that we were giving but Jesus was not giving. In truth, He is the giver. I would not think that an uncreated nature can be passed on. Nor will I see how we will be omniscient, immutable and know the heart as God does. |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Sand2022: 5:48pm On Sep 07 |
Kingsempires:
you see this one you failed it Wolfy why so you are trying to contradict
Isaiah 40:13
So you have an image of an angel not God
As for me na God image I get not angel Reserve your energy for something else. |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Youareforgiven(m): 6:31pm On Sep 07 |
Sand2022:
I would say so. No one can be exact facsimile of Jehovah. Jehovah's nature is uncreated.
The Angels have God's spirit, but they have created nature.
I would not think that an uncreated nature can be passed on. Nor will I see how we will be omniscient, immutable and know the heart as God does.
✝ 1 John 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." KJV Bible As He is so are we... No difference whatsoever. The Angels don't have the Holy name. They are spiritual creations of God but do not possess the very essence of God which is his Spirit. We will be all this and more in our transformed state when Christ Jesus our Vine appears. Even now we can know the hearts of men through the Holy Spirit in us. ✝ John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come." KJV Bible ✝ 1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." KJV Bible We have the mind of God in Christ Jesus. We think the thought of God our Father. What He knows, we are able to know. You don't even know what is in store for those who are in Christ Jesus. It is glorious and mind blowing!!! |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Kingsempires(m): 6:57pm On Sep 07 |
Sand2022:
Reserve your energy for something else. I just want to see his answer na!! |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Barristter07: 8:07pm On Sep 07 |
1 Like |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Emusan(m): 8:16pm On Sep 07 |
Barristter07:
The bold is invalid. Once again a reference to Very VALID! "Therefore, since the children have partaken of blood and of flesh" Heb 2:14
Partakers of flesh and blood ARE Exactly Flesh and Blood. Partakers of Divine nature are exactly Gods Nature.
No! That made them TO BE WHO GOD IS. They SHARED OR PARTAKE. But in the case of Jesus IT WAS FULL DEITY which is even when He was on earth because He is already God the Creator. Very simple! English. |
| Re: Part 3: JW PIMO Reconsiders Trinity Doctrine by Barristter07: 8:20pm On Sep 07 |
Emusan:
Very VALID!
No! That made them TO BE WHO GOD IS.
They SHARED OR PARTAKE.
Very simple! English. Partakers of flesh and blood are Flesh and blood, Yes ? You can see you don't make any sense 1 Like 1 Share |
