Xavier5:


The question is, are the opposers in the majority? That's all I'm asking.

Regarding the child support and orphanage, I've made it clear countless times that this isn't only the responsibility of the government, but also that of the society... that is willing individuals and organizations. And I've dedicated myself to be part of the willing individuals.

How many individuals and organizations will be willing to be part of it? Only one way to find out.

The drug addict will oppose it, and it would be unconstitutional to deprive the woman of her rights just because of the foetus inside her.

We have not agreed that the rights of a foetus trumps that of the pregnant woman yet you see, so you'd have a hard job forcing the addicted pregnant woman to accept what you are proposing.

You can't even stop her drinking and smoking as it is, so what makes you think you can deprive her of her fix? Would you lock her up so she can't fix herself?

Xavier5:


... Because she doesn't want to exercise responsibility over that child.

Actually, its because she doesn't want to be pregnant at all.

budaatum:


The drug addict will oppose it, and it would be unconstitutional to deprive the woman of her rights just because of the foetus inside her.

It's her right to do whatever the hell she wants to do with her body, but when a human life is being threatened, then protection of human life have to be enforced. Liberty that despises the protection of a human life is inhumane.

We have not agreed that the rights of a foetus trumps that of the pregnant woman yet you see, so you'd have a hard job forcing the addicted pregnant woman to accept what you are proposing.

Yeah... same way the right of the drug addict parent triumphs that of a child to live and be cared for... indeed.

If anyone wants to be irresponsible, they're free, but they should keep it out of the life and welfare of children and fetus. And this is where the government comes in to ensure that.

You can't even stop her drinking and smoking as it is, so what makes you think you can deprive her of her fix? Would you lock her up so she can't fix herself?

I've already addressed this issue in my response to Maeve7.



#Xavier

kkins25:

Not if the supposed guests are my own children, which I had to engage i coitus to create out of my will.




Sure. But even if society turns a blind eye, nature will carry out its course. It's not society forcing her to, It's good-old mother nature.




Of course. However, the autonomy of the individual cannot supersede that of society. After all, as much of an introvert as I am, when I left Christianity, it was hell. And I'm able to survive because I found society in my nairalander folks and those online. Without society, the individual becomes insane.





-https://www.routefifty.com/health-human-services/2019/12/pregnant-women-drug-use/161701/

BTW didn't you oppose vaccine mandates? Was that not society's autonomy on display?

budaatum:


Really? I saw a couple flirting in the park, and a couple are kissing at the busstop. Is that public sexuality enough for you, or must they show their sex bits to qualify?

My mistake, you know I be typical African man. We Africans are not fond of public display of affection not to talk of sexuality. Why the Europeans have the need to start kissing and handling each other in public areas in the presence of passers-by including children is a mystery to me.

budaatum:


Actually, its because she doesn't want to be pregnant at all.

Then she should use birth control. End of discussion.



#Xavier

Xavier5:


Then she should use birth control. End of discussion.

She did. It failed. She even told the man to use condom, and it burst or the man took it off without her knowing.

Xavier5:


It's her right to do whatever the hell she wants to do with her body, but when a human life is being threatened, then protection of human life have to be enforced.

We have not yet agreed that a foetus is a human life!

Seriously, you need to stop imposing your own subjective intrinsic value on the rest of us who have not got your intrinsic value.

Your intrinsic value is not intrinsic to me!

BTW MAGAts, how much has Trump donated to disaster relief recently?

cc: basilico, bemeruca

budaatum:


We have not yet agreed that a foetus is a human life!

Seriously, you need to stop imposing your own subjective intrinsic value on the rest of us who have not got your intrinsic value.

Your intrinsic value is not intrinsic to me!

They always think they are mind readers. He knows your mind more than you.

Xavier5:

Yeah... same way the right of the drug addict parent triumphs that of a child to live and be cared for... indeed.

The rights of a born child do very easily trump those of its drug parent addict, and that's why we will take the child from the addicted parent to protect the child.

Now, if you want to protect the rights of an unborn foetus, I have no objection whatsoever and you are very welcome. Just take it out of me and do whatever you want with it, but don't you dare impinge on my rights and expect me to go along with you!

Xavier5:


Then she should use birth control. End of discussion.
#Xavier

If birth control fails nko? Birth control is not 100% effective.
If the woman was used and dumped, sexuality exploited or abused nko?
If the girl is too young and at the risk of VVF nko?
Even married couples who don't want any more children often opt for abortion.
There are a 101 reasons why sexually active woman might accidentally get pregnant and not prepared to birth and care for a baby.
How do you think the Chinese strictly enforce the one child policy for over 30 years?

After all is said and done, I'm gonna take timeout to carefully study VP Harris's presidential campaign. You can find blueprints of success in more ways than one with this campaign.

I've never seen a well runned campaign ever since I was a political wonk.

The media blitz she's run in days have been flawless and reaching more voters and depth than CNN, Fox and politico can't even cover in a week.

The rapist trump have received so much hammering from VP Harris to the point that the felon trump has been uncharacteristically silent in his attacks against Kamala.

Just see this scorcher.

LordReed:


What you do not seem to grasp is, it is all subjective that is why there are all these differences. If there was some inherent universal human value then animals would also value humans but there isn't. Your human
perspective and your empathy for other humans makes you value them. That value is not universal. Heck even your own family members don't have the exact value for others as you.

you seem to assert that; values are subjective and differ between individuals, therefore there are no universal human values. this is wrong.
no one is arguing that values do not vary across cultures and individuals, that doesn't mean there aren't any universal values. Some values, such as valuing life, fairness, and seeking truth, are widely observed across our societies, even though our expressions might differ.

Animals vs. Humans this is a logical fallacy as we are not the same. trees are living things that do not harbor the intelligence of animals. animals can bond with a family or a mother/offspring relationship. Furthermore, your argument suggests that if we have universal human values, animals would also value humans. Wrong!!! category errrrr, two fundamentally different types of beings are being compared as if they should operate similarly. That is the crazy error you are making here. we do not share the same cognitive capacities, emotional frameworks, or social structures. we are very different. Universal values among humans don’t necessarily imply that animals would adopt or recognize those values. Animals operate based on instinct and survival, not on moral frameworks.

Heck even your own family members don't have the exact value for others as you.

Another fallacy, I don't know which fallacy it is but it is a fallacy. individual values don't negate the existence of universal principles. Even highly diverse societies often share core moral beliefs, like the wrongness of murder and you know why the nazis tried to hide their crimes.

Your human perspective and your empathy for other humans makes you value them

oversimplification of moral and ethical systems leads to reductionism. again, this is crazy. there are many other factors why I value human life not just empathy. I do not have empathy for many people but I value their lives.

There is an overlapping factor in this. you have no middle ground just a monolithic belief. that is a false dichotomy either values are subjective or they're universal, with no middle ground.

Xavier5:


... Because she doesn't want to exercise responsibility over that child. Don't forget that. It seems to me you just want to ignore that basic fact. The system prevents her from having to exercise such responsibility. Aside that, if she doesn't want it, why not utilise birth controls? At least that gives her a very high chance of not getting pregnant

#Xavier

First of all, some women get pregnant despite birth control.

Secondly, a lot of women don’t want to carry a pregnancy and give birth. Not only because they are not ready for a baby but because they don’t want to be pregnant in the first place. A pregnancy is not a walk in the park.

And for many women having an abortion is better than having a child grow up in an orphanage. Maybe in your fictional book orphanages are like Disneyland but the reality is very different.

LordReed:


They always think they are mind readers. He knows your mind more than you.

Or he wants to impose what's in his own mind on the rest of us. That's why he insists on some imaginary "intrinsic value", which is really just a backdoor for an imaginary god.

He fails to notice that even God has a hard task imposing thou shalt not kill nor covet etc on anyone, but he thinks he can do better, perhaps.

LordReed:
BTW MAGAts, how much has Trump donated to disaster relief recently?

cc: basilico, bemeruca

He has raised more than 7million and motivated private citizens to help from all across the country.

bemeruca:


you seem to assert that; values are subjective and differ between individuals, therefore there are no universal human values. this is wrong.
no one is arguing that values do not vary across cultures and individuals, that doesn't mean there aren't any universal values. Some values, such as valuing life, fairness, and seeking truth, are widely observed across our societies, even though our expressions might differ.

Animals vs. Humans this is a logical fallacy as we are not the same. trees are living things that do not harbor the intelligence of animals. animals can bond with a family or a mother/offspring relationship. Furthermore, your argument suggests that if we have universal human values, animals would also value humans. Wrong!!! category errrrr, two fundamentally different types of beings are being compared as if they should operate similarly. That is the crazy error you are making here. we do not share the same cognitive capacities, emotional frameworks, or social structures. we are very different. Universal values among humans don’t necessarily imply that animals would adopt or recognize those values. Animals operate based on instinct and survival, not on moral frameworks.


Another fallacy, I don't know which fallacy it is but it is a fallacy. individual values don't negate the existence of universal principles. Even highly diverse societies often share core moral beliefs, like the wrongness of murder and you know why the nazis tried to hide their crimes.


oversimplification of moral and ethical systems leads to reductionism. again, this is crazy. there are many other factors why I value human life not just empathy. I do not have empathy for many people but I value their lives.

There is an overlapping factor in this. you have no middle ground just a monolithic belief. that is a false dichotomy either values are subjective or they're universal, with no middle ground.

Do you think the government should execute dangerous criminals?

Do you think the government should field soldiers who will kill other human beings in war?

bemeruca:


you seem to assert that; values are subjective and differ between individuals, therefore there are no universal human values. this is wrong.
no one is arguing that values do not vary across cultures and individuals, that doesn't mean there aren't any universal values. Some values, such as valuing life, fairness, and seeking truth, are widely observed across our societies, even though our expressions might differ.

Is this some sort of joke? Did you not hear Vance justify lying that they are eating his pets?

He doesn't seem to have any value that is universal where lying is concerned, and I doubt the Haitians he lied about would say he's been fair or even values their life.

bemeruca:


He has raised more than 7million and motivated private citizens to help from all across the country.

How much did he personally donate?

Xavier5:

It seems you don't read my response to you. I make it clear that this isn't only the responsibility of the government, but also that of the society... that is willing individuals and organizations.

There are organizations concerned with children‘s welfare and foster parents caring for kids whose parents can’t and yet … nobody wishes to be from a broken home or given away at birth.

How many individuals and organizations will be willing to be part of it? Only one way to find out

We already know if we really care to know, do you?

And let's not forget the fact that this only occurs in few cases since due to birth controls being subsidized and made available, affordable and accessible, unwanted pregnancies will significantly drop.

Are we talking about a utopian place or the US or Nigeria?

This is not an overnight thing, this is why I made it clear that lots of time, efforts and resources will be spent but nevertheless its possible. That's why I always state that temporal pro-choice should be allowed until the system is effectively established. I don't know which part of that you're finding difficult to grasp.

Good luck with this system. My humble opinion, look at how well it’s working now and then what needs to be done to improve it and hopefully the government will provide you with tax payers money to give the unwanted child a beautiful life.


#Xavier[/quote]

budaatum:


Or he wants to impose what's in his own mind on the rest of us. That's why he insists on some imaginary "intrinsic value", which is really just a backdoor for an imaginary god.

He fails to notice that even God has a hard task imposing thou shalt not kill nor covet etc on anyone, but he thinks he can do better, perhaps.

Ah, the ol I have got the god's backing so I am right and you are crazy. LoLz.

budaatum:


Is this some sort of joke? Did you not hear Vance justify lying that they are eating his pets?

He doesn't seem to have any value that is universal where lying is concerned, and I doubt the Haitians he lied about would say he's been fair or even values their life.

what does Vance have to do with this? also, he never justified lying. just like the fine people lie or the bloodbath lie the media is gaslighting you.

Vance believes lying is wrong even if he has told lies multiple times. so are the people who commit murder. They don't do it because they think it is good. If they think it is good, then they will murder everyone they see but that is not the case.

bemeruca:


what does Vance have to do with this? also, he never justified lying. just like the fine people lie or the bloodbath lie the media is gaslighting you.

Vance believes lying is wrong even if he has told lies multiple times. so are the people who commit murder. They don't do it because they think it is good. If they think it is good, then they will murder everyone they see but that is not the case.

So, vance has values that must be intrinsic to everyone else but himself?

That sounds like typical maga logic to me.

“If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that’s what I’m going to do,”
- Vance

Xavier5:


So because it can't live outside the woman's body mean we should just snap its neck? Is it the fault of the baby that it found itself in such condition? Why should he or she be punished.

The fetus is a human life... a living human, and as such should be protected. That's the baseline.



Yes, they might cheat the system, but if the baby dies because of their refusal to the right thing, then the law comes for them. It takes an inhumane and selfish person to make such decision. The fear of the law will make them act in line.

As as for those that will be too inhumane and selfish to the point that they are willing to put the baby's ife in danger and serve punishment. Then good luck to them. Such irritates and disgusts me 😠😠😠

But the thing is, majority will act in line for fear of punishment.



Yes, I do and I donate regularly to them. I'm not a sit and watch pro-life. I'm an action one. And as I earlier stated, I'm working on creating a humanitarian organization that will be committed to the system mentioned.



This means you've not been read my write-ups... cos I made it clear that one of the critical cases in which abortion should be allowed is severe deformity of the fetus in other to prevent subjecting the child to severe physical, emotional and mental pain, except the parents says otherwise.

And as I will always say, temporal pro-choice should be allowed until the system is effectively in place.


#Xavier

Au contraire, I have been reading your answers to me very carefully. I like your humanitarian approach and I share some of your views but your problem is that you are naturally smart and thus have become intellectually lazy. To my disappointment, I was right. I was hoping you would surprise me.

Here is why:
I have mentioned trisomy 13, 18 and 21 on purpose to see how you will react and what your line of argument would be. I anticipated that you would continue to argue passionately to make your point which would make you blind to a lesson or two you could learn and eventually make you sound incoherent.

You have decided to lump all three forms of trisomy together under the umbrella of 'severe deformity‘'. Whatever that means, these three genetic anomalies are very different from each other and I would have loved to see what you would do about them individually. So much for intellectual laziness.

Whatever you mean by 'severe deformity' remains a mystery but it is safe to assume that you see a human/fetus without deformity as inherently better and of more value than one with deformity/disability. And that makes you incoherent and proves LordReed‘s point.

LordReed:


Do you think the government should execute dangerous criminals?

Do you think the government should field soldiers who will kill other human beings in war?

maybe we should look at moral relativism.
lord if you hold this view, one can say you cannot provide firm answers to these questions:
If all morality is subjective, then it becomes difficult to criticize practices like execution or war in societies where they are widely accepted, even if those practices seem unjust or wrong to outsiders. we already talked about this.

the difference between you and me is that I believe in both Subjective and Objective moral values or truth. you believe in just one.

Maeve7:


Au contraire, I have been reading your answers to me very carefully. I like your humanitarian approach and I share some of your views but your problem is that you are naturally smart and thus have become intellectually lazy.

Here is why:
I have mentioned trisomy 13, 18 and 21 on purpose to see how you will react and what your line of argument would be. I anticipated that you would continue to argue passionately to make your point which would make you blind to a lesson or two you could learn and eventually make you sound incoherent.

You have decided to lump all three forms of trisomy together under the umbrella of 'severe deformity‘'. Whatever that means, these three genetic anomalies are very different from each other and I would have loved to see what you would do about them individually. So much for intellectual laziness.

Whatever you mean by 'severe deformity' remains a mystery but it is safe to assume that you see a human/fetus without deformity as inherently better and of more value than one with deformity/disability. And that makes you incoherent and proves LordReed‘s point.

There's nothing to do about them individually as far as they are all deformities that would subject the child when born to physical, mental and emotional pain and suffering. All deformity capable of the mentioned fall under severe deformities, and as such should be a justifiable reason for abortion except the parent says otherwise. It still boils down to life.


#Xavier

budaatum:


So, vance has values that must be intrinsic to everyone else but himself?

That sounds like typical maga logic to me.

If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that’s what I’m going to do,

IF is the keyword there. you are your lies.

Xavier5:


There's nothing to do about them individually as far as they are all deformities that would subject the child when born to physical, mental and emotional pain and suffering. All deformity capable of the mentioned fall under severe deformities, and as such should be a justifiable reason for abortion except the parent says otherwise. It still boils down to life.
#Xavier

Suffering is a part of life. Everyone suffers at some point. What gives you the right to decide who can suffer how much and who is worthy or unworthy of living?

bemeruca:


Vance believes lying is wrong even if he has told lies multiple times. so are the people who commit murder. They don't do it because they think it is good. If they think it is good, then they will murder everyone they see but that is not the case.

I really can not understand how you can not see that not lying is not a value that is intrinsic to a multiple times liar, but then, 'maths is racist' is intrinsic to you, so I'm not in the least surprised.

Murder is intrinsic to a murderer, Bem, and that's the only reason we call that person a murderer, instead of, say, a lover.

bemeruca:

IF is the keyword there. you are your lies.

If, except he did create a story that was a blatant lie!

bemeruca:


maybe we should look at moral relativism.
lord if you hold this view, one can say you cannot provide firm answers to these questions:
If all morality is subjective, then it becomes difficult to criticize practices like execution or war in societies where they are widely accepted, even if those practices seem unjust or wrong to outsiders. we already talked about this.

the difference between you and me is that I believe in both Subjective and Objective moral values or truth. you believe in just one.

So the inherent value just disappears because the person is a criminal or an enemy combatant?