gloriana:


in wat way did God saved Mary? who is d saviour of d world? Jesus. Jesus Christ was yet to die for us b4 Mary made dat statement which mins she new a whole lot dat mere mortals dint no because of her grace. "She will crush d head of d serpent" in wat way?

Mary acknowledged her need of a Saviour when she made that statement, whether or not she fully realised that this would indeed be the baby in her womb. Mary knew that, with all her virtues and godliness, she was not sinless as you are asserting, she was well aware that she needed salvation. She realised that God would somehow accomplish this and that her baby would be essential in this plan of salvation.

gloriana:


I want to ask u. Y was Jesus Christ baptised? Not even by d Holy spirit but by a mere mortal who is not worthy to undo d strp of his sandal

Jesus was baptised by John the baptist to fulfil all righteousness. Our Lord Jesus did not have to repent for the forgiveness of His sins because He had no sin to repent of. He only demonstrated this to show us an example, that we should follow His steps (1 Peter 2:21).

godsveryown:
I can see u have ur doubts abt christianity and abt god wich brings me to blive dat u hav not had a personal encounter wit him and u dnt knw him because if anyone must come to him, he must first blive dat he is and u dnt.dat also means u have never heard him b4 or even recognize his voice. so wat are u talking abt?u dnt even blive in dis god.

Hmm, think or believe whatever you want, it doesn't change my stance nor faith. With all you all 'personal encounters' the world is much worse than before my grandfather married my grandmother. Bottom line is, you all are becoming more Catholic than the Pope himself. More bible scholars than the Hebrews from whose language several translations of the bible have been made. And going by that many actual meanings 'might' have been lost. So my advice to you : read your bible (it's very rich and nourishing morally and spiritually) then 'practice' what it tells you (which is basically 'MODESTY') and not what you think you read cos the authors of the bible were poets also who used lots of literary terms, of their time, to put clearer pictures to the people. Cos if you translate many comments and phrases the way you read them, you will definitely miss the mark.

godsveryown:
d bible is a manual,a guide to right living so watever dat is not in it is authored by man and can stand correction so my dear wat ever dat is not authored by God is wrong,it has to conform wit His word for it to b true.my question to u now is does praying to mary and using d rosary and invoking all d saints in conformity wit d bible?

You gave a very good description of the bible been a manual. Are you trying to tell me that a manual of an electronic gadget for example must contain all instruction on how to use the device? Certainly not. In fact as you get to use the device, you find more knowledge that are certainly not in the manually. The last verse of the book of John also recorded jesus doing so many things that could not possibly be recorded in the bible. Are you also saying the bible is wrong in that aspect? all that is in the bible is true but the bible cannot possibly record all truth.

OLAADEGBU:


Mary acknowledged her need of a Saviour when she made that statement, whether or not she fully realised that this would indeed be the baby in her womb. Mary knew that, with all her virtues and godliness, she was not sinless as you are asserting, she was well aware that she needed salvation. She realised that God would somehow accomplish this and that her baby would be essential in this plan of salvation.

My dear the fact that mary needed a saviour does not mean she born in sin. She was also saved because if not for God she would have been born a sinner. God is still the power behind her not been sinless hence her saviour. Take this analogy as an example, all men were born into the pit of sin and needed christ their saviour to pull them out but mary on the other could have fallen into this pit of sin but God knowing that Mary would bear his son and could not possibly be in sin while concieving his son prevented her from falling into this pit(This is where the saving comes in). Another example, If am in a battle and an enemy shot me, a doctor comes in and treats me to good health. We can say he saved me right? In another instance, I could be in a battle and an enemy shot me and just before the bullet hit me the doctor comes in and pushes me out of the path of the bullet. In both instances , I was saved by the doctor. Except in one instance the bullet did not hit me. Do you get it now? There is nothing God cannot do. I think it would be wired for mary while in sin still concieve her Lord. Like my other brothers have earlier stated, a dirty tank cannot possibly hold clean water, the water will also become dirty. Get it now?

godsveryown:
didn't d bible warn against invoking d dead? Do u pray to ur pastor to intercede 4 u? Are u aware dat nobody goes to d fada except tru Jesus christ?why don't u ask moses or even david to pray 4 u?or devote a rosary session asking dem to pray 4 u?my dear all no b intercession o if not jesus wuld hav told us to pray either tru her or him to God

I hope this answer ur question if u are really open hearted.And not here just to win arguments.
Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
The church believes that Mary is in heaven same way they believe that Peter, Paul, Mathew etc are in heaven.
So, we do pray to Mary and Saints to intercede for us but in no way denigrating the supremacy of Jesus Christ's mediatorship. That's why when we say:
Holy Mary -- pray for us
Saints -- pray for us
But When call Jesus Christ, we say "have mercy on us".
It might also interest u to knw that we pray to Mary/Saints to pray for us, to God through Jesus Christ... That is:
Man --> Mary/Saints --> Jesus Christ --> Almighty God.
Of course u know that Jesus Christ is God.
That is it, In as much as u are free to believe what u want to believe, U will be doing too much by criticizing others.
I await ur questions, if any

Ichiato:

My dear the fact that mary needed a saviour does not mean she born in sin. She was also saved because if not for God she would have been born a sinner. God is still the power behind her not been sinless hence her saviour. Take this analogy as an example, all men were born into the pit of sin and needed christ their saviour to pull them out but mary on the other could have fallen into this pit of sin but God knowing that Mary would bear his son and could not possibly be in sin while concieving his son prevented her from falling into this pit(This is where the saving comes in). Another example, If am in a battle and an enemy shot me, a doctor comes in and treats me to good health. We can say he saved me right? In another instance, I could be in a battle and an enemy shot me and just before the bullet hit me the doctor comes in and pnoushes me out of the path of the bullet. In both instances , I was saved by the doctor. Except in one instance the bullet did not hit me. Do you get it now? There is nothing God cannot do. I think it would be wired for mary while in sin still concieve her Lord. Like my other brothers have earlier stated, a dirty tank cannot possibly hold clean water, the water will also become dirty. Get it now?

don't you think if Mary were to be "clean " Jesus would have been given birth to in a top notch holy temple?
they say they HONOR Mary but take a look : “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
image, or any likeness of any thing that is in
heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or
that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt
not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous
God...” (King James Bible, Exodus 20:4,5).

OLAADEGBU:


It is called the virgin birth of our Lord Jesus Christ because the conception was supernatural and the embryo was planted in the womb of Mary to carry for 9 months by the Holy Spirit. It was free from any genetic information from either Joseph or Mary.

As far as I am concerned, you have said nothing and have proven nothing. Bye...

We are honouring Mary,
We are honouring,
We are honouring Mary, never worship her,
People saying 'we worship her' not at all,
Everybody join the chorus honour her, honour Mary!!!!
Love you Mother Mary

nnatom:


is it possible to you

young man,u are confused

Thank God you used your mouth speak it that, mary says from now on the whole nation will call me blessed. And secondly you said mary adore God as angels did, but in our prayer we call on angels and to call mary is a sin to you, are they not glorifying God together? You said nowhere they wrote in the bible that canonade ascenssion of virgin mary, if all things that happened should be compulsorily canonade? Then why did you tell us here that jesus also has sisters and they are not named or numbered? When shall this political crisis shall end? This is not the way of the lord God.

[quote author=OLAADEGBU post=26400164]

Not only Mary, it included all those who believed in Christ during His earthly ministry.

"While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:46-50).[/quote
see as God dey look una

OLAADEGBU:


If Mary is the mother of God why stop short of calling her God or Goddess?

You know Olaadegbu, she is not a goddess, she did not create the world even... There is one and only GOD, but coming to save us GOD chose to be born by somebody even calling her Mother and respecting her wishes. We believe she can also request on our behalf making her a powerful ally and mentor and if so, why not?

alliednetw:


Oga.
Which xtian leaders did the acceptance?At what Council? When?Specific answers will help us arrive at truth.
Consider that each book was written as a single doc in diff places,times. Many Apostles & their succesors never saw/read most of these writings.Paul's letters were written to different communities. Most had no access to that of others.
Names of persons/places wil help

Stop beating around the bush. I hate repetition. Like I said earlier the collections have been going on 2 centuries before 397 AD and many people have had access to the books of the New Testament. The combination of the books people accepted as the New Testament differ from regions to Churches. Some did not accept the books of Revelation and II Peter even centuries after 397 AD. What was done in 397 AD was just to agree on books to be included in the New Testament and which to be excluded. Some churches did have the books of Clemence and Pauline in their New Testament before then.

I'm not in anyway down-playing the efforts of Church Leaders in 397 AD and I only responded to your post which says

Having read the teachings of the greatest Christian leaders of the early church on this topic, I don't care about the falsehood being peddled by this poster.
Since the Wise Men who gathered at Carthage and made
the New Testament in 397 AD were also known to venerate Mary and always sought Her intercession, those who accept their decree on NT must also accept the Marian intercession or else it will amount to hypocrisy

So it doesn't matter now whether they agreed on the books we have in the New Testament now, what matters most is we must abandon the precepts of the New Testament, to follow the teachings of the supposed Christian Leaders who only agreed on the books to be included in the New Testament, which is against the Teachings of those books.
What I want you to know is, whether anything takes place in 397 AD, the difference books will still be available for all today because, it has been written that "...this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations" (Matt 24:14)

The above verse is against the will of the Catholic church who went on killing Christians for having a copy of the Scripture.

"Their refusal to surrender the scriptures was an offense that the Papacy could not tolerate. The Papacy was determined to exterminate the heretics from the face of the Earth. The heretics greatest offense, was that they refused to worship God according to the will of the Pope. For this crime, the heretics suffered every humiliation, insult and torture that man could event."(Fox's Book Of Martyrs) Tortures: 1)
The decree set forth in the year 1229 A.D. by the Council of Valencia... places Bible on The Index of Forbidden Books. The doctrine withholds"it is forbidden for laymen (common man) to read the Old and New Testaments. - We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular. The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out."(Council Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229)
On March 12, 2000, Pope John Paul II ADMITTED the Roman Catholic Church KILLED the Christians.

Jesus Christ has made Himself clear when He said in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father, but by Me"
"But this man, because He continues ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood"
"Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He lives to make INTERCESSION for them" (Hebrew 7:24-25)

Jesus Christ as the Messiah, is the King, the Sacrificial Lamb and also the High Priest. Jesus is not too busy to intercede for us and we certainly do not need another intercessor between us and Jesus/God as the Catholics want us to believe and so, we do not need a Mary to intercede for us. Otherwise, the coming of the Messiah is in vain.

OLAADEGBU:


Mary should have remembered that Jesus' mission was not to meet temporal social needs and certainly not to encourage sinful behaviour as she wanted more wine for the guests. The lesson you should take from Mary is that you should "Do whatever Jesus says."

Are you being serious bro? - This is heresy - You're implying that Jesus encouraged sinful behaviour by turning Water into wine!! In any case alcohol drinking is a topic for another day ( I can infer that you're one of those against alcohol). The wedding of Cana is recorded within John's Gospel and you failed to recognise the whole context - Please read John's concluding words in John 2:11 - What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him. I mentioned before that there are deeper meanings to the miracles Jesus performed but you choose to state that Mary encouraged sin!!
If you're a pastor, I hope you're not teaching your congregation this big error.

incofab:

The church believes that Mary is in heaven same way they believe that Peter, Paul, Mathew etc are in heaven.
So, we do pray to Mary and Saints to intercede for us but in no way denigrating the supremacy of Jesus Christ's mediatorship. That's why when we say:
Holy Mary -- pray for us
Saints -- pray for us
But When call Jesus Christ, we say "have mercy on us".
It might also interest u to knw that we pray to Mary/Saints to pray for us, to God through Jesus Christ... That is:
Man --> Mary/Saints --> Jesus Christ --> Almighty God.
Of course u know that Jesus Christ is God.
That is it, In as much as u are free to believe what u want to believe, U will be doing too much by criticizing others.

Whoever made you believe, dead people are in heaven, I don't know, but the Bible makes us understand that dead people are still in their graves. The prayers of the saints as stated in that verse is not about that of the dead, the holy people.
And Mary can not intercede for you. It is only Jesus who has paid that price who. He is the only High Priest who is pleading our case in the Heavenly Temple with by virtue of the blood he shed in Calvary. You'll be sorry you pray to Mary at the Judgement Day. The Scripture is clear on this.

OLAADEGBU:


The same God that gave Mary grace has given it to us all. Have you received it?

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:11-14)

I most certainly have received it and continue to cooperate with this grace by working out my salvation with fear and trembling as per Philipians 2:12>>>

It still remains that Mary was immaculately conceived in order to carry our Lord Jesus. I believe in church's teaching that defined this as it was guided by the Holy spirit just as the Holy spirit guided the authors of the books of the bible.

OLAADEGBU:


What gives you the impression that Paul had Rome in mind when he mentioned Babylon? Are they one and the same?

"The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the New Babylon."(Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106)

Proffdada:

don't you think if Mary were to be "clean " Jesus would have been given birth to in a top notch holy temple?
they say they HONOR Mary but take a look : “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
image, or any likeness of any thing that is in
heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or
that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt
not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous
God...” (King James Bible, Exodus 20:4,5).

Please Proffdada I make arguments because I also seek knowledge and would like you to bring the same attitude. If you feel you're sure you know all, then there is little need for this argument as I do not take pleasure in answering questions I have answered earlier. I do not like typing neither do I like writing. Are you freaking serious about the bolded? When as been born in a "top notch holy temple" (whatever that means) been a critera for been "clean". Please don't make cheap arguments with me in an effort to prove that you're right. You only need to convince yourself that you're right not me.
About our worship of images, again I have answered this question before and I don't have time or the energy to explain again. please for more on why we do what you see in those pictures please read http://www.catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues . What you see is merely an act of veneration not worship.

one of best discussion I have ever enjoyed on NL. I am just reading and digesting.
@OP , nice work.

enigmaotr:

Stop beating around the bush. I hate repetition. Like I said earlier the collections have been going on 2 centuries before 397 AD and many people have had access to the books of the New Testament. The combination of the books people accepted as the New Testament differ from regions to Churches. Some did not accept the books of Revelation and II Peter even centuries after 397 AD. What was done in 397 AD was just to agree on books to be included in the New Testament and which to be excluded. Some churches did have the books of Clemence and Pauline in their New Testament before then.

I'm not in anyway down-playing the efforts of Church Leaders in 397 AD and I only responded to your post which says

So it doesn't matter now whether they agreed on the books we have in the New Testament now, what matters most is we must abandon the precepts of the New Testament, to follow the teachings of the supposed Christian Leaders who only agreed on the books to be included in the New Testament, which is against the Teachings of those books.
What I want you to know is, whether anything takes place in 397 AD, the difference books will still be available for all today because, it has been written that "...this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations" (Matt 24:14)

The above verse is against the will of the Catholic church who went on killing Christians for having a copy of the Scripture.

"Their refusal to surrender the scriptures was an offense that the Papacy could not tolerate. The Papacy was determined to exterminate the heretics from the face of the Earth. The heretics greatest offense, was that they refused to worship God according to the will of the Pope. For this crime, the heretics suffered every humiliation, insult and torture that man could event."(Fox's Book Of Martyrs) Tortures: 1)
The decree set forth in the year 1229 A.D. by the Council of Valencia... places Bible on The Index of Forbidden Books. The doctrine withholds"it is forbidden for laymen (common man) to read the Old and New Testaments. - We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular. The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out."(Council Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229)
On March 12, 2000, Pope John Paul II ADMITTED the Roman Catholic Church KILLED the Christians.

Jesus Christ has made Himself clear when He said in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father, but by Me"
"But this man, because He continues ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood"
"Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He lives to make INTERCESSION for them" (Hebrew 7:24-25)

Jesus Christ as the Messiah, is the King, the Sacrificial Lamb and also the High Priest. Jesus is not too busy to intercede for us and we certainly do not need another intercessor between us and Jesus/God as the Catholics want us to believe and so, we do not need a Mary to intercede for us. Otherwise, the coming of the Messiah is in vain.

There is no teaching of the early christain leader that is against the book of the new testament. They are either in line or compliments these books. As for the actions of the catholic church on those killings, I think pope John paul II as apologized http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II and accepted that it was wrong for them to be killed. But I think with the level at which the bible is misinterpreted calls for understanding as to why they didn't want laymen to read it without guaidance. Even the so called reformed churches (churches that broke away from the catholic church) are not in harmony with themselves as regards the interpretation of the bible, as more individuals having read the bible without guaidance as seen the "Light" (whatever that means, like everyone before them were in darkness) and interpreted the bible to suit themselves. Was that the intensions of the above passage (Matt 24:14) because the seems like the other of the day now.
Besides catholic christains were also killed by the early reformer in england for their beliefs in the interpretation of the Bible.

OLAADEGBU:


Then let the Bible be your final authority in all matters.

Matt 7:3

OLAADEGBU:


Question: "Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?"

Answer: Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-siblings.html#ixzz3G6UeR5M8

Please the bible also used the litral words for brother to describe other relations when it could have used their actual words to describe their relation, such example are in Genesis 13:8 and 14:12, we read of one example of brother being used to describe an extended relationship: Abraham and Lot. Though they were actually uncle and nephew, they called one another "brother." Moreover, in the New Testament, Jesus told us to call one another "brothers" in Matthew 23:8. The passage obviously does not mean to suggest that all Christians have the same physical mother. Also John 19:25 mentions, Mary the mother of Jesus as having a sister also named Mary the wife of clopas, we know that this cannot mean boilogical sisters as two sisters cannot be given the same name. So OLAADEGBU, the bible is not just for litral translations. Logically again, If the bible really wanted to describe the brothers of Jesus as Mary's children then it should have just said so. Why use the brothers of jesus to describe Mary's children, It should have just described them as Mary's children that they are. Only christ is described as the child of mary.
Read more [url]http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-mary%E2%80%99s-perpetual-virginity[/url]

Brethren,I have been following all your comments since inception and just can't hold back laughter.The greatest of blessings would be on the guy that shared this post.It will indeed be an eye opener to those who are still in darkness and operating under the influence of inducement,ignorance and indoctrination.
I was a hardcore Catholic as a youth and would have killed for Mary if that opportunity came my way.It is very difficult to explain the religion of the catholics because in Christian matters they always try to argue out their points like juries on judicial contract.They have so much applied mere human intelligence in defending their faith so much that bibles used by any other denomination is unreal.However when they quote from their own version we read similar informations and the corrolations in alignment. They argue spiritual matters based purely on researches and findings by mere mortals whose primary aim always is to induce readers into glorifying their works.They attach so much importance to Languages spoken in Greece and Italy and feel that understanding them is a major step to God's kingdom.For the little minds,let me educate you now that no language is greater than another.Every language is equal to another and has the same value.God made it so.So if you stand before a crowd taking pride in speaking Latin as an old man,then you are making a very big fool of yourself because in countries where those languages originated,toddlers who still wet their beds and infact defecate uncontolably speak them better.


The bone of contention here is who Mary was?.
We all know who she was as is indicative of the Catholic bible as well.But because Catholics feel the writers of Mary's history did not do so in full,they felt there was need to expanciate and elaborate further.This elaboration however became a human tradition outside the bible and their own bible.A wise question here is why were the early christians who were Catholics as they say attach insignificant importance to Mary that they never realised until now that she was their intercessor on spiritual matters?.A most foolish way to defend oneself is to argue whether or not every thing that happened in bible times is included in the bible.Only relevant matters that would be of benefit to believers were recorded and any that was recorded was explicitly narrated and concluded up to a meaningful and reasonable understandng.In Mary's case,Isaiah would not have been daft not to add that after Mary's birth,she would go on to become the transporter of prayers made to her son and God.Even if he was,God's angel would have delivered the message in full.Are we also aware that Mary had parents?.Supposing her parents did not give birth to her?.So her father and mother too are equally blessed for giving birth to a maiden who gave birth to the Christ,they too deserve to be honored.The book of Psalm confirms that Jesus' mother had other children and the Catholic strongly believe in the Psalm of David.So why all this rigmaroling?.Let anyone who can quote this psalmic verse out of context do if he can.69:8-9

The issue related to worshipping Mary pulled me out of Catholic.In addition to keeping some informations unexplainably sacred and making them an exclusive concern of the so called exalted clergies who constantly made us believe the decisions from the Vatican are unquestionable.Jesus kept answering questions from both the standards and the poors until his death and even after.The catholics worship Mary indeed, and the pressure is so much on them to reverse such dogmatic practice but a change from this tradition will demand further amendments in other areas and this will question the innerancy of their doctrines.So what is in play here is nothing but pride and prejudice and an attempt to protect a man made doctrine that now hold millions of people under siege ignorantly.

Yes the bible said honour your parents so your days on earth would be lenghtened,the NT also confirms this.But it becomes practically wrong to honour dead parents or bow down to their lifeless images.How do you honour your parents?,by simply obeying their commands and heedng their advices,and when you are of age you take care of their needs.If honouring exceeds this,then it becomes worship.Therefore in the way and manner the Catholics honour their Mary,it is much more than a worship. Let's look at these few definitions of worship and compare them to how the Catholics honour their Mary to see if there is any difference between their honoring and worshipping.We need bear in mind that we are talking about "Religious Devotional Honour" here,and not physical honours suggested in the 10 commandments.

1.To honor and love as a deity

2.Reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

3.The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

4.the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god.

5.The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

Conclusively,I worshipped Mary as a Catholic because I did everything contained in the definitions above to Mary's image and the Catholics still do it today.infact as I am typing now,millions of Catholics are bowing down to graven images of Maria all around the world.Every Catholic Church compound has a sacred isolated region where gigantic Mary's image of any material stands and towers above every worshipper who "must" go in there,bow down his or her head either kneeling or standing and tell the image his problems,wishes or be thankful for a received favour.In addition to this,even non catholics all over the world make billions of dollars selling graven images of Maria to gullible Catholics who have been trained only to trust and obey.Every catholic adorn his compound and rooms with lots of graven images of Mary.I want any Catholic to dispute this,then ask any interested person to go to a catholic church compound and observe this.Now what greek words do you have for bowing and kneeling to graven images of Maria?.How does this relate to the early church which you falsely claim to have established?.What about the apparitions of Mary?,does it have any corrolation with the early church?.A catholic clergy once advised a woman diagnosed with Cancer not to receive treatment because Mary has shown her a concotion to treat her,this woman died drinking the concotion.I once had brake failure while driving,as I was contemplating where to steer my car,I and my mom rather than calling Jesus' name for safety were seriously calling on mother mother,a resultant effect of indoctrination and cajole.Thank God we have finally realised the truth as is written in the book of Mathew 4:12.

The mass exodus of congregants out of Catholic border mostly around Mary and her goddess role.So many names including the Charismatic renewal has cropped up and grown out of this faith all in an effort to redress abnormalities made right by human inteligence.As glaring as this dogmatism looks,Catholic priests are so tenacious holding firm to it because of the pecuniary interest involved.I know of a young boy in my town who was forced by his parents to become a catholic priest so he could help enrich the family.That strategy worked and today the parents are truly rich because they were able to maximise the funds they received from the boy by setting themselves up with a lucrative business.But is God mocked?.The seminary is nothing to write home about as well over 60% of students become gay men before their final year.The so called Sisters sleep around with men in secret and in some cases with fathers themselves.if you can promise and swear to a sister that you won't leak the secret,she becomes yours.Masturbation is encouraged and so many other vices.All these atrocities is the singular reason why purgatory is promoted because they falsely teach it will wash away all sins.It is also the major reason why bible is distorted and always quoted out of context without any meaningful points made in tandem to subject matters.The easiest escape route of a catholic when faced with reality is to ask if the bible contain everything that happened in bible time.it becomes so astonishing hearing some who calls himself a follower of christ ask such question.While it looks so smart to them,they foolishly forget that it is not for any body to add nor subtract,or at least they should present to us one that contains everything and revolve around their belief.Instead all we hear them quote is text books and literatures just anybody could come up with in a few seconds and make it God's ordinances.when asked why he is quoting from textbook and literatures,he would tell you christians bible is not complete or have been tamered with.

Bottom line is;you bow and kneel before images of Maria and believe in God by faith.You build special structures/houses for Mary's image where you actually go to worship.You give frivolous reasons for honouring Mary in your own language,what reasons do you have for asking carcasses you call saints to pray for you also?.Where is the position of Jesus in your faith?. What meanings does the teachings of Christ have in your faith?.Why do you refuse to obey him but rather evolve your own doctrine?.Or is jesus' activities as is recorded in the bible also corrupted?.What practices in Catholic today are in alignment with the early church?. Please seek the truth according to jesus and it shall set all of you free.

enigmaotr:

Whoever made you believe, dead people are in heaven, I don't know, but the Bible makes us understand that dead people are still in their graves. The prayers of the saints as stated in that verse is not about that of the dead, the holy people.
And Mary can not intercede for you. It is only Jesus who has paid that price who. He is the only High Priest who is pleading our case in the Heavenly Temple with by virtue of the blood he shed in Calvary. You'll be sorry you pray to Mary at the Judgement Day. The Scripture is clear on this.

Get the differences and similarities between Grave, Paradise, Heaven, New Heaven. Hell, shoel etc.
KJV Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Also take a look at Rev 6: 9-11. Some Bible translations replace the word 'saints' with 'Holy one', That's left for historians to argue but it's very clear the the word 'holy one' or 'saint' is not referred humans still living, rather it's referring to pple that lived their life righteously while on earth.
The Bible also made it clear that "the prayers of the righteous availeth much", Although it is referring to a righteous living being in this context, common sense should tell u that if saints can offer prayers to Jesus (as explained in Rev 8:4), what stops them from making prayers on ur behalf when u call on dem

incofab:

Get the differences and similarities between Grave, Paradise, Heaven, New Heaven. Hell, shoel etc.
KJV Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Also take a look at Rev 6: 9-11. Some Bible translations replace the word 'saints' with 'Holy one', That's left for historians to argue but it's very clear the the word 'holy one' or 'saint' is not referred humans still living, rather it's referring to pple that lived their life righteously while on earth.
The Bible also made it clear that "the prayers of the righteous availeth much", Although it is referring to a righteous living being in this context, common sense should tell u that if saints can offer prayers to Jesus (as explained in Rev 8:4), what stops them from making prayers on ur behalf when u call on dem

The name saints belongs equally to the living and the dead; yea, in the mention of the dead, the determining clause is added, “who had slept.” And these saints are reckoned such, not by human, but Divine Canon. Of the Saints, who had died either a long while before the birth of Christ, or not much after, from all tribes no doubt.
The Bible has quite a bit to say about Mary and you can read this for yourself in the gospels, especially in Luke 1-3 and some in Matthew 1-3. But Scripture does not affirm what is believed about Mary by the Catholic church. She is not the mother of God, only the mother of the humanity of Christ. Mary is not a mediator between God and man, only Jesus is the mediator between God and man. “For there is one God,and one mediator also between God and men,the man Christ Jesus” ( 1 Tim. 2:5).
In Luke 1:28, she is called “favored one” (literally, “endowed or filled with grace”) but only in the sense that God, by grace chose her to be the human mother who would give birth to the Christ child. This same idea and word is used of all believers in Ephesians 1:6. To say any more than this is to add to what the text says and this is what Catholicism has done.

So what are we talking about.............pls nt in double bt can be one with such perfect spirit without grace....pls respon.

Sorry... human have knowledge and u wil nerve be confuse, mislead or perish...

enigmaotr:

The name saints belongs equally to the living and the dead; yea, in the mention of the dead, the determining clause is added, “who had slept.” And these saints are reckoned such, not by human, but Divine Canon. Of the Saints, who had died either a long while before the birth of Christ, or not much after, from all tribes no doubt.
The Bible has quite a bit to say about Mary and you can read this for yourself in the gospels, especially in Luke 1-3 and some in Matthew 1-3. But Scripture does not affirm what is believed about Mary by the Catholic church. She is not the mother of God, only the mother of the humanity of Christ. Mary is not a mediator between God and man, only Jesus is the mediator between God and man. “For there is one God,and one mediator also between God and men,the man Christ Jesus” ( 1 Tim. 2:5).
In Luke 1:28, she is called “favored one” (literally, “endowed or filled with grace”) but only in the sense that God, by grace chose her to be the human mother who would give birth to the Christ child. This same idea and word is used of all believers in Ephesians 1:6. To say any more than this is to add to what the text says and this is what Catholicism has done.

please, the name "Saints" does not equally belong to the dead. A saint is someone that lived a life of exceptional Holiness while on earth.
Also, The Church neva said that Mary is the mediator between God and man. weneva we pray to Mary, we pray to her to as a mediator between man and Jesus Christ... Pple tend to misquote the Church because Jesus is God.
Jesus is the only mediator between man and God but we can as well go to Jesus Christ through Mary.

incofab:

I hope this answer ur question if u are really open hearted.And not here just to win arguments.
Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
The church believes that Mary is in heaven same way they believe that Peter, Paul, Mathew etc are in heaven.
So, we do pray to Mary and Saints to intercede for us but in no way denigrating the supremacy of Jesus Christ's mediatorship. That's why when we say:
Holy Mary -- pray for us
Saints -- pray for us
But When call Jesus Christ, we say "have mercy on us".
It might also interest u to knw that we pray to Mary/Saints to pray for us, to God through Jesus Christ... That is:
Man --> Mary/Saints --> Jesus Christ --> Almighty God.
Of course u know that Jesus Christ is God.
That is it, In as much as u are free to believe what u want to believe, U will be doing too much by criticizing others.
I await ur questions, if any

The only question you should expect from them is 'where is it in the bible?' But don't worry yourself much, their hearts are not open. Cheers.

incofab:

please, the name "Saints" does not equally belong to the dead. A saint is someone that lived a life of exceptional Holiness while on earth

Matthew 27:52: "...bodies of the Saints WHICH SLEPT AROSE".
By this verse, the Bible was refering to the Saints who slept in the Lord. If Saints are for people who are already dead, there wont be any need to include "which slept". You can be a saint while alive through holy living, not necessarily in dead. The Bible made us to understand that it is appointed for all men to live once, after that, judgement. Nobody earn anything in death. You earn it while still living.

Also, The Church neva said that Mary is the mediator between God and man. weneva we pray to Mary, we pray to her to as a mediator between man and Jesus Christ... Pple tend to misquote the Church because Jesus is God.
Jesus is the only mediator between man and God but we can as well go to Jesus Christ through Mary.

But going to Jesus through Mary is unbiblical. Jesus made us to understand that whatever we ask in His Name, He'd do. He didn't give us the impression that He may be unwilling to answer us and would sometimes need a mediator like Mary. Praying to Mary is nothing but human worship and it's unbiblical. If you have any line in the Scripture where we would need to pray to Mary, please let me see it.

A Truly New Thing
October 15, 2014

"How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man" (Jeremiah 31:22)

Long ago, the wise man concluded: “There is no new thing under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 1:9). That nothing is now being created is even recognized as a scientific law.

But God reminds us as He reminded His backsliding people of Israel that He has, indeed, created one new thing in the earth. Since only God can “create,” a really new thing would have to be produced directly by the Lord Himself. Of course, God had completed His original work of creating all things long ago (Genesis 2:1-3), including a marvelous mechanism for human reproduction. Nevertheless, because of man’s sin, He very soon had to begin a work of reconciliation, and this included a primeval promise that “the seed of the woman” (Genesis 3:15) would come someday to accomplish this great work. Since all normal reproduction requires male seed, such a miracle would mean God would have to create a new thing when the appropriate time would come. At that time, as Isaiah prophesied many years later, “a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,” and that Son would be “the mighty God,” who would establish His kingdom “with justice from henceforth even for ever” (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6-7).

Then, still later, Jeremiah reminded his forgetful people of this same great promise: God would create, by His mighty power, a new thing, a perfect human body, without inherited sin or physical blemish, and with no contribution from either male or female, in the womb of a specially called virgin. She would compass that “holy thing” (Luke 1:35) with warmth and love for nine long months as it grew in her womb. Then, in the fullness of time, “God sent forth his Son, made of a woman” (Galatians 4:4), to “save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21). HMM

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