WinsomeX:


I agree with everything you have written. I do not deny the person of the Holy Spirit. Indeed the Holy Spirit is Christ in us. If it is "in this sense" you see the Spirit REPLACING Christ in us, I cannot argue further. But note that the emphasis is on the name Christ: "Christ in us..." There is a reason for it. It is Christ the Holy Spirit glorifies.

There is however a danger with a devotion to spirits, it opens up the believers to all kinds of spirit that have gone into the world and that's why there must be that distinction btw the Spirit of Christ and other spirits. Same way as the NT has distinguished God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ from other gods. The name Christ is the distinction and he remains the object of our worship. If our devotion is made to a Spirit, it must be in Jesus name, anything else is cultic.

This also does not justify extra biblical occurrences like laughing in the Spirit.

But everything he said is what I had been saying, down to the meaning of comforter and the use of the word "dispensation." And you were there disagreeing? That's why I don't like to write sometimes until I can relax and express my ideas, so that it is as clear as crystal.

Note also that when I said I was using dispensation in the loose sense, I meant that I wasn't using it in the technical sense it is often used among christians, like the dispensations consisting of Law, Grace, etc.

Now, do you have answers for us regarding your spiritual experiences, following the standard of Paul?

vooks:
I got curious because I know from one of his books He gave Gifts to Men that Hagin was against titles. He has described how he stepped into the office of a Prophet in 1952 15 years after he started ministry and so forth. So I knew him to at least have regarded himself as a prophet but he seldom used the title.

The site I posted by Randall an obvious big fan of him came up. You may want to click the link again

You are just as vengeful as mbaemeka carrying grudges to the tenth generation. You may want to take up growing up seriously, it don't hurt growing up


Arguments from silence are notoriously unreliable. I know Hebrews has employed that argument effectively on Melchizedek but that's Spirit inspired. In normal circumstances, use them if you have NOTHING else. Why would I dignifiy your infantile rants by responding to them? I hold my peace and let you wallow in your own folly alone. There is so much truth to never-argue-with-a-fool line

Vengeful must have a different meaning from the one in the dictionary.

In fairness to the "accuser" brother, he never said that Hagin used the title of Apostle. One can claim to be an apostle while disclaiming the use of that or other title. So, let's give the brother a chance to provide just ONE example of Hagin claiming to be an apostle or claiming to be called to the office of an apostle. Asking him to show an instance of Hagin using the title or addressing himself as Apostle will be a taller order.

Ok sir, let's wait.

Allow me to ask you, do you believe tha Holy Spirit manifests in ways different from what is recorded in the scriptures?

nlMediator:


Vengeful must have a different meaning from the one in the dictionary.

In fairness to the "accuser" brother, he never said that Hagin used the title of Apostle. One can claim to be an apostle while disclaiming the use of that or other title. So, let's give the brother a chance to provide just ONE example of Hagin claiming to be an apostle or claiming to be called to the office of an apostle. Asking him to show an instance of Hagin using the title or addressing himself as Apostle will be a taller order.

mbaemeka:

The bible says Jesus groaned 'in the spirit' but Paul spoke about a groaning 'BY the spirit'. These two instances differ.

"By" or "in" - are we not dealing with semantics here. Common, you can do better this.

mbaemeka:

That notwithstanding if Paul (by the Holy Spirit) had not recorded his testimony in Romans 8:26 we would have still assumed that groaning was extra biblical because we didn't see any other disciples do so.

I am not sure that scripture was a testimony. Paul was teaching doctrine there. I believe there is a difference there. A testimony is borne from an experience that change; doctrines are eternal truth.

mbaemeka:

The fact again says that the invisible God laughs in Heaven even as he groaned while on earth. They are not extra biblical concepts as it were. Moreso, Paul never spoke about interpreting the groans. He simply said that such groans were initiated by God's spirit at times when we may not know how to pray as we ought to, so in the same line God's spirit could initiate the same laughter through us with a particular motive in mind.

God laughs in heaven and Wofaithers roar on earth. If this is a biblical bases for laughing in the Spirit, I will permit you this. Enjoy. I, however, will never be a partaker of this in my lifetime. I hope those reading have found sufficient scriptures from you to prove laughing in the Spirit. I hope they can see your effort to make scripture say what it is not saying. I hope they have ability to discern truth.

mbaemeka:

Just like the example I gave Jesus did different things to elicit different miracles at different times and all still boils down to the workings and operations of the spirit. He made Elisha lay untop the widows son before raising him back to life but he made Peter to speak the word to Dorcas and she was raised. I cannot therefore say that the ONLY two ways he makes people come back to life is by making one lay untop of them or to simply speak the word. What if he says Laugh infront of person, will he stop being the spirit of God because of so?
Speaking of God's standard, how do me measure it? Hope you know that Jesus, the word is God's standard. So you may try to explain what standard Jesus used when he used mud to heal blindness and when he just spoke the word. You would find out that Jesus, like he said, only did what the Father in him (the Holy Spirit) told him to do.

I gave you some biblical yardstick to measure the things of the Spirit:
1. Righteousness, peace and joy.
2. Liberty.
3. Scriptures.
When Jesus came, the Pharisee who knew scriptures well but where devoid of 2 and 3 could not recognize him.

I judge WoF by these three, they may claim 1 and 2, but they fail woefully in 3. That's the way to know truth from error.

mbaemeka:

The challenge you and some others have is that you do not have true fellowship with the initiator of the manifestations nor do you drink daily from that fresh anointing that he is known to constantly provide. When you do, you would find yourself experiencing some of these manifestations that some of these men experience(d) and as such you would have no qualms in recognising the works of the spirit more so, when the same Spirit lives in you and is ever ready to tell you which workings are his and which are not.

John said many spirits have gone into the world. Which of them is behind laughing in the spirit? If I need manifestation I could easily go to Synagogue or Cele. They abound there. Fortunately, I don't need them. I am complete in Christ. I have fellowship with Jesus through his Spirit and I am content with this. My fellowsgip with Christ gives me discernment and I know enough to say that laughing in the Spirit is not of him.

mbaemeka:

Jesus said God is looking for true worshipers who would worship him in spirit (first) and in truth (the word). No christian can be misled when these 2 conditions are met and Jesus never says something if it is not true.

This is not disputed. I only warn that beware of the spirit interpreting "truth" to you.

nlMediator:

But everything he said is what I had been saying, down to the meaning of comforter and the use of the word "dispensation." And you were there disagreeing? That's why I don't like to write sometimes until I can relax and express my ideas, so that it is as clear as crystal.

I did say I agreed with you at some point when you explained the place the Sport using "in that sense". Also he stated clearly that the dispensation is of the Spirit of Christ. The name Christ makes all the difference for me. I still maintained though that preoccupation with spirits is mysticism. When what we do is in Jesus name, that is scripture.

nlMediator:

Note also that when I said I was using dispensation in the loose sense, I meant that I wasn't using it in the technical sense it is often used among christians, like the dispensations consisting of Law, Grace, etc.

I understood you then and I said so.

nlMediator:

Now, do you have answers for us regarding your spiritual experiences, following the standard of Paul?

No I don't. I don't owe you an answer. I saw your earlier post asking the same thing and I was beginning to wonder if you have comprehension troubles or something. I have explained to you why it is personal to me and non of your business. What's there in it you don't understand? Pls come to whatever conclusion you wish, it doesn't bother me. I am not WoF and I don't flaunt experiences around. The scriptures are sufficient.

Mbaemeka,
If Paul had not penned Romans we would have called groanings extra-biblical and this rightfully so because nowhere is it taught. But note when we talk of extra biblical manifestation we are talking of either disciples never manifesting &/ a teaching of the same missing. We have no record of interpretation of tongues yet we know it is of Spirit because Holy Spirit taught us.

Did you just edit your post? Thank God Winsomex had commented on it. Did you shoot yourself in the hoof?

I love the way you arrogantly flash your works, using the name of Jesus and now manifesting gifts to drive a point home. This is usually when you run out of ideas, you are essentially saying, 'hey, am too spiritual and I know better even if I lose this debate' Men test doctrine by scriptures NOT experiences. Hoping you know experiences birthed Mormons. And this is mysticism BTW, experiences which can't be measured by Spirit-Inspired scriptures because Holy Spirit forgot to record or manifest them in the Primitive/early church

nlMediator:


Not trying to avoid the question. But was I right in my conclusion that YOU agree that we are in the Age of the Holy Ghost, just as the previous Age was that of Jesus Christ and earlier one was that of the Father? Care to elaborate further, so people can learn some more? I think you did a fine job of it the other time.

Yes, I have always said it was God the father for the Old Testament administration(This entire programme pointed Israel to the son), the Son for the four gospels (He came to His own but they rejected Him) and now the Spirit for the mystical body of Christ(He also points us to the son).

Sorry, can't elaborate at the minute...

WinsomeX:


"By" or "in" - are we not dealing with semantics here. Common, you can do better this.

No we are not dealing with semantics. Groaned "in" the spirit means he didn't utter anything out but what Paul referred to in Romans 8:26 is how the Holy Spirit in a man causes him to groan outwardly in prayer. They differ and If you had experienced it you would have known.

I am not sure that scripture was a testimony. Paul was teaching doctrine there. I believe there is a difference there. A testimony is borne from an experience that change; doctrines are eternal truth.

Paul was not teaching a doctrine there. Infact this was the only time in scripture that he expressed the Spirit's role as an intercessor through unutterable groans. Besides, there is no doctrine of 'Groaning' and to attach the word "eternal" to the "truth" is egregious if not distorted.

I, however, will never be a partaker of this in my lifetime. I hope those reading have found sufficient scriptures from you to prove laughing in the Spirit. I hope they can see your effort to make scripture say what it is not saying. I hope they have ability to discern truth.

I say a big AMEN to the emboldened. I have not made the scriptures to say anything like the "doctrine of groaning". I however have shown that there is no hard and fast rule to decide how the Holy spirit will choose to manifest himself and those who try to box him only do so because they do not know him.

I gave you some biblical yardstick to measure the things of the Spirit:
1. Righteousness, peace and joy.
2. Liberty.
3. Scriptures.
When Jesus came, the Pharisee who knew scriptures well but where devoid of 2 and 3 could not recognize him.

I judge WoF by these three, they may claim 1 and 2, but they fail woefully in 3. That's the way to know truth from error.

There is nothing in the scriptures that even suggests that the workings of the spirit are measured by 1 & 2 especially when both items are subjective to the recipients and not the onlookers. And really anyone who has close fellowship with the Holy spirit would have known that. The bible gives us 2 benchmarks for measuring spiritual things: The Spirit and the Word (scriptures), period.

1 Corinthians 2: 10,11,12,13 (KJV)

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 . . .even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received. . . the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

It is the Holy spirit within that helps us to discern spiritual things. Natural men(lacking the spirit) or their wisdom and ways of reasoning will always see the things of the spirit as foolish but howbeit in the spirit they are mysteries.

Hebrews 4:1221st Century King James Version (KJ21)
12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word of God is also a discerner of the intents and thoughts of the spirit.

As per whether WOF have the knowledge of the scriptures, this thread will tell. A Non-WOF just said there is a doctrine of "groaning" and now he has said liberty, righteousness, peace and joy are yardsticks for measuring spiritual things. We enjoin him to show us how he came about it.

John said many spirits have gone into the world. Which of them is behind laughing in the spirit? If I need manifestation I could easily go to Synagogue or Cele. They abound there. Fortunately, I don't need them. I am complete in Christ. I have fellowship with Jesus through his Spirit and I am content with this. My fellowsgip with Christ gives me discernment and I know enough to say that laughing in the Spirit is not of him.

If you know enough be kind enough to share some of those experiences you have enjoyed from your fellowship with him and if you cannot do so we would rightly conclude that you have none. I also have constant fellowship with the Holy spirit with many experiences to back my claim whether you believe it or not. He told me that you do not have any fellowship with him and even if he didn't the very words of the scripture prove that you do not. We can do a random check, do you speak in tongues?

This is not disputed. I only warn that beware of the spirit interpreting "truth" to you.

Jesus said my sheep know my voice and the voice of a stranger they would not listen to. Jesus speaks 2 ways- through his word and through his spirit. Constant fellowship with his spirit will make the words clear and audible enough.

mbaemeka:


No we are not dealing with semantics. Groaned "in" the spirit means he didn't utter anything out but what Paul referred to in Romans 8:26 is how the Holy Spirit in a man causes him to groan outwardly in prayer. They differ and If you had experienced it you would have known.

Did you make the emphasised bit up on your own? Can't find it in the verse.

vooks:
Mbaemeka,
If Paul had not penned Romans we would have called groanings extra-biblical and this rightfully so because nowhere is it taught. But note when we talk of extra biblical manifestation we are talking of either disciples never manifesting &/ a teaching of the same missing. We have no record of interpretation of tongues yet we know it is of Spirit because Holy Spirit taught us.

Paul mentioned interpretation of tongues in the book of Corinthians and that is how you knew about it. Period. Now tell us where Jesus got the idea that he could use spittle to heal a blind man and if you come up with any rubbish on sovereignty I would rest my case with you.

Did you just edit your post? Thank God Winsomex had commented on it. Did you shoot yourself in the hoof?

You and your delusions. That's why I eschew discussing with you.

I love the way you arrogantly flash your works, using the name of Jesus and now manifesting gifts to drive a point home. This is usually when you run out of ideas, you are essentially saying, 'hey, am too spiritual and I know better even if I lose this debate' Men test doctrine by scriptures NOT experiences. Hoping you know experiences birthed Mormons. And this is mysticism BTW, experiences which can't be measured by Spirit-Inspired scriptures because Holy Spirit forgot to record or manifest them in the Primitive/early church

I am quoting scriptures, stating how my experiences match up to the very scriptures and I am accused of "arrogantly flashing my works". As if it is my fault that you do not know the scriptures nor the author of the scriptures or can you prove me wrong by not evading my question again; do you speak in tongues or do you have any of the workings of the spirit as explained by Paul in Corinthians?

shdemidemi:


Did you make the emphasised bit up on your own? Can't find it in the verse.

I quoted a scripture. Did you look it up?

mbaemeka:


I quoted a scripture. Did you look it up?

Yes I did. Please check to see if the passage says what you insinuated.
Rom 8:26b
but [size=16pt]the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings[/size] which cannot be uttered.

shdemidemi:


Yes I did. Please check to see if the passage says what you insinuated.
Rom 8:26b
but [size=16pt]the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings[/size] which cannot be uttered.

How does he make the intercession for us? Is he outside us? Is he not one with our spirit? Does God pray? Who will God pray to?

mbaemeka:


How does he make the intercession for us? Is he outside us?

What does the scripture say? Even if you can't comprehend it, you don't have to adapt what the passage says.

There's not much we can do about it because we're dealing with the invisible, in the realm of the Spirit.

mbaemeka:
Does God pray?

The father, the Spirit and the Son communicate within the Godhead, this isn't unusual.

mbaemeka:
Is he not one with our spirit?

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Spirit with the capital 's' is the Spirit of God, it is different from our spirit. The verse above makes that clear. They are both indwelling but not the same.

mbaemeka:
How does he make the intercession for us? Is he outside us? Is he not one with our spirit?
Does God pray? Who will God pray to?

Yes, God does pray. God will pray to God the Father.

shdemidemi:

What does the scripture say? Even if you can't comprehend it, you don't have to adapt what the passage says.
There's not much we can do about it because we're dealing with the invisible, in the realm of the Spirit.

lol @ even if I don't comprehend it. The scripture is as clear as crystal. Don't let the "S" and ''s" used by translators confuse you. Many of them were as confused as some of the posters on this thread for e.g, Spirit "Itself" as if he is a thing.

The father, the Spirit and the Son communicate even within the Godhead, this isn't unusual.

The HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of GOD. He does NOT pray on his own- he prays THROUGH a believer. Please show just ONE scripture that suggests that he prays on his own. Just one.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Spirit with the capital 's' is the Spirit of God, it is different from our spirit. The verse above makes that clear. They are both indwelling but not the same.

Quick bible study:

1 Corinthians 6:17Common English Bible (CEB)
17 The one who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him.

The Holy Spirit is not standing side by side with the spirit of a christian- they are intermingled into one being.

To fully understand Romans 8:26 you have to read the whole train-of-thought in context so you can get the full gist.

27 And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

Who is he that searches the Heart and why does he do so? Heart of whom?

Proverbs 20:2721st Century King James Version (KJ21)
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of his being.

A clear translation says:

Proverbs 20:27New Living Translation (NLT)
27 The Lord’s light penetrates the human spirit,[a]
exposing every hidden motive.

God searches a man's spirit to see his intents, wishes, motives and for a christian who has the spirit of God within, the spirit of God causes the man's spirit (and as such the man- for man is a spirit) to make those unutterable groans that are translated in the realm of the spirit to be the will of God. That's why it is called a "helping US in OUR weakness". I can show you another translation for Romans 8:26-28 AMP

27 And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God’s will.

As you can see, the Holy spirit is not on his own doing the praying. He is in the spirit of Christians helping us to pray through those groans that ONLY God can interpret.

BabaGnoni:


Yes, God does pray. God will pray to God the Father.

Thrash. Please use one scripture to back this up. Just one.

mbaemeka:
Thrash.
Please use one scripture to back this up. Just one.

^^^
Your wish is my command
however go for some anger management and control please

Gorge yourself on three

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
- Luke 6:12 NIV

⁴¹And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw and he bowed his knees and he prayed.
⁴²And he said, "Father, if you are willing, let this cup pass from me; however not my will, but yours be done."
- Luke 22:41-42 Aramaic Bible in Plain English

⁴¹So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, thank you for hearing me.
⁴²You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me."
- John 11:41-42 NLT

BabaGnoni:

^^^
Go for some anger management and control please
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
- Luke 6:12 NIV
⁴¹And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw and he bowed his knees and he prayed.
⁴²And he said, "Father, if you are willing, let this cup pass from me; however not my will, but yours be done."
- Luke 22:41-42 Aramaic Bible in Plain English

No vex. I am angry at the statement not you.

Jesus was not functioning as God on earth- he was functioning as a man.

Luke 18:1 (KJ21)
18 And He spoke a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray and not to faint

It is MEN that pray and not God.

mbaemeka:


lol @ even if I don't comprehend it. The scripture is as clear as crystal. Don't let the "S" and ''s" used by translators confuse you. Many of them were as confused as some of the posters on this thread for e.g, Spirit "Itself" as if he is a thing.

Hmm..It is so clear you decide to improvise by twisting the Word to say what you want it to say. And now, we can put the blame on the translators for not saying it the way Mba wants it said.

mbaemeka:

The HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of GOD. He does NOT pray on his own- he prays THROUGH a believer. Please show just ONE scripture that suggests that he prays on his own. Just one.

No bro, Paul isn't talking about a tongue experience or any form of spiritual experience here. The passage reminds me of 1 John 2- 1 John 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, [size=14pt]we have an advocate with the Father[/size], Jesus Christ the righteous:

now what is an advocate? It's an intercessor. We have Someone Who is interceding for us to the Father.

mbaemeka:
Quick bible study:

1 Corinthians 6:17Common English Bible (CEB)
17 The one who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him.

The Holy Spirit is not standing side by side with the spirit of a christian- they are intermingled into one being.

Context matter my brother. The Spirit of God has a function and a role to play in our lives, it is not our spirit atall. Both spirit are united as regards righteousness but they are not the same entity. My spirit is the real me that will be judged at the white throne of judgement and that won't be along side the the Spirit of God.

mbaemeka:

No vex. I am angry at the statement not you.
Jesus was not functioning as God on earth- he was functioning as a man.
Luke 18:1 (KJ21)
18 And He spoke a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray and not to faint
It is MEN that pray and not God.

I laughed in WoF, you know that WoF authoritative laugh, mimicking the authoritative and assertive post in "It is MEN that pray and not God"
- it rubs on one after a while, one just has succumb to laugh

mbaemeka , do you talk to yourself at all? Sometimes possibly, maybe when psyching yourself up. Hmm? No?

Although not that one is saying God psyches Himself up, but the fact is God does talk to Himself (i.e. prays to Himself)
The Godhead talk with Themselves.The Godhood talk among Themselves...

Sorry I am stealing time contributing at the moment

PS: Wasn't it you a few posts up there who referenced a scripture of God the Holy Spirit praying on behalf of others (i.e. to intercede, to make petition for)

mbaemeka:


How does he make the intercession for us? Is he outside us? Is he not one with our spirit? Does God pray? Who will God pray to?

1. Is Jesus presently functioning as God in heaven? Is he making intercession for us?
2. The verse of Romans 8:26 is quite clear that it is the Spirit that does it:
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

mbaemeka:

To fully understand Romans 8:26 you have to read the whole train-of-thought in context so you can get the full gist

27 And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

Who is he that searches the Heart and why does he do so? Heart of whom?

He searches the heart of God. The Holy Spirit can do that but you and I can't hence the bible says we do not know how to pray like we ought to i.e we can't pray in line with God's will because we do not know His will. The only soft landing I have is the assurance that His plans towards me are of good.

It is all God here, nothing for you and I to do in the entire chapter 8 of Romans. It is an indicative chapter that shows us who we are in God.

^^^

I didn't improvise I rightly divided the scriptures. The same translators called him "itself". They translate based on what they understand and sometimes they get it wrong hence the editions.

The verse you quoted is not similar. Jesus is in HEAVEN with the FATHER. That much is clear enough. But the Holy Spirit is on earth not roaming about but in the Spirits of Christians. There are a myriad of scriptures saying so. Secondly, each member of the Godhead have inherent power to do whatever they please even though they work in tandem. It will be amiss for the Holy Spirit to pray to the Father to effect anything. In fact, the Father doesn't effect the works- it is the Holy Spirit that does.

A proper understanding of their works will help you convince the JWs about the trinity. I saw you struggling because you were calling them equal members in one breath and then showing Jesus out to be God's boy in another. And that idea didn't sink to anyone because you failed to realize that Jesus was not functioning as God while he was on earth. Jesus was functioning as a man- he put his powers aside to do that.

I showed you the scriptures and they said nothing about righteousness in the context. You my friend, should read it again. God's spirit is resident in the spirit of the believer. That's where he functions from. He does not function on his own. Jesus said "even the spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because they seeth him not neither knoweth him but you know him for he is with you and shall be IN YOU". [In Your Spirit]

BabaGnoni:


I laughed in WoF, you know that WoF authoritative laugh, mimicking the authoritative and assertive post in "It is MEN that pray and not God"
- it rubs on one after a while, one just has succumb to laugh

mbaemeka , do you talk to yourself at all? Sometimes possibly, maybe when psyching yourself up. Hmm? No?

Although not that one is saying God psyches Himself up, but the fact is God does talk to Himself (i.e. prays to Himself)
The Godhead talk with Themselves.The Godhood talk among Themselves...

Sorry I am stealing time contributing at the moment

PS: Wasn't it you a few posts up there who referenced a scripture of God the Holy Spirit praying on behalf of others (i.e. to intercede, to make petition for)

SMH. Please read up. I said the Holy Spirit prays through the believer to God. He doesn't stand on his own and pray. He is God himself, if he wanted to do anything he would do it of his own volition but in the life of the believer he has a role to play as a HELPER amongst other things. In this role he uses the believer to carry out the role that he wants the believer to do that he (the believer) might be weak to do e.g Pray According to the will of God.

ok, I am done with that. You do not have to agree, remember! But, Please take a step back to check the chapter properly.

May God open our eyes of understanding to see those things that have been freely given to us.

shdemidemi:


He searches the heart of God. The Holy Spirit can do that but you and I can't hence the bible says we do not know how to pray like we ought to i.e we can't pray in line with God's will because we do not know His will. The only soft landing I have is the assurance that His plans towards me are of good.

It is all God here, nothing for you and I to do in the entire chapter 8 of Romans. It is an indicative chapter that shows us who we are in God.

The scripture said God that searches the hearts of men can read the mind of their spirits because the Holy Spirit within will be helping the believer to pray the will of God.

mbaemeka:


The scripture said God that searches the hearts of men can read the mind of their spirits because the Holy Spirit within will be helping the believer to pray the will of God.

He does not search the heart of men. The heart of man is desperately wicked, none can comprehend it. What else will God find in the heart of man?

The Spirit knows the heart of God and He prays according to God's will while He comforts us through our 'sufferings' and infirmities.

trustman:


1. Is Jesus presently functioning as God in heaven? Is he making intercession for us?
2. The verse of Romans 8:26 is quite clear that it is the Spirit that does it:
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

The Holy Spirit does it THROUGH the believer. He is not on his own doing it. The Holy Spirit is in the world through the church - the body of Christ I.e each member.

Jesus is FUNCTIONING as GOD now in heaven. Yes he is making intercession for MEN and not christians. Besides, he is not saying "father please forgive them, please help them" as the verse seems to suggest. Jesus finished works of righteousness and his blood is what stands as the "intercessor" for mankind. This means that he is in HEAVEN as the reason why men can be saved. That's how is an advocate and an intercessor. Remember that God the father is now Tabernacled in Jesus.

But when we talk about the Holy Spirit's role as an intercessor. He functions in US as he only comes into us when we are saved. Now in us, when we pray he helps. When we want to take steps he also helps. He helps us from within.

shdemidemi:


He does not search the heart of men. The heart of man is desperately wicked, none can comprehend it. What else will God find in the heart of man?

The Spirit knows the heart of God and He prays according to God's will while He comforts us through our 'sufferings' and infirmities.

The spirit of God knows the heart of God because he is the Spirit of God. He also lives in us. Now he takes from God and shows to us while he takes from us and shows to God. That's why he is a helper, advocate, intercessor etc.

God searches all men's hearts to know their intents. That's what the bible says. A christian does not have a desperately wicked heart the bible also says that. But we have needs, weaknesses etc that we may not even be aware of. So God's spirit in us uses us to communicate those needs, weaknesses to God according to God's will.

Mba, we have argued on this issue with shdemidemi before, these guys will hold onto their perceived dogmas. Read the AMP of 1 cor 14:14 and connect that scripture with Rom 8:26 to get more clarity.

1 Corinthians 14:14 AMP

For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody].

Bidam:
Mba, we have argued on this issue with shdemidemi before, these guys will hold onto their perceived dogmas. Read the AMP of 1 cor 14:14 and connect that scripture with Rom 8:26 to get more clarity.

Very Apt.