mbaemeka:


The Holy Spirit does it THROUGH the believer.

Did the bible say that?

mbaemeka:

He is not on his own doing it. The Holy Spirit is in the world through the church - the body of Christ I.e each member.

Do you know what 'spirit' is?

It is like air, it can be everywhere at the same time, no restrictions.

mbaemeka:

Jesus is FUNCTIONING as GOD now in heaven. Yes he is making intercession for MEN and not christians.

1 John 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

My little children can only be believers bro not just men.

mbaemeka:
But when we talk about the Holy Spirit's role as an intercessor. He functions in US as he only comes into us when we are saved. Now in us, when we pray he helps. When we want to take steps he also helps. He helps us from within.

The mistake you make is thinking we become epitome of spirituality simply because we become believers. It isn't so. A christian with the Holy Spirit in him can commit adultery, he can kill, he can lie (and that is not the fault of the Holy Spirit) if he does not get transformed by the renewing of his mind through God's word daily.

The Holy Spirit can't work effectively in a christian that is in total conformity with the world. Such Christian does not even know God let alone His will. If such christian says he is prompted by any spirit, it will definitely not be the Holy Spirit because the devil/the world has higher dominance over such believer.

P.S God and the devil transmit information through our mind. If you do not understand or study God's word enough, you might be mistaking the devils influence on you for God.

mbaemeka:
1 Corinthians 14:14 AMP

For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody].




Very Apt.

Yea. The greek in Romans 8:26 literally reads "...the Holy Ghost maketh intercession for us in groanings that cannot be uttered in articulate speech".

Articulate speech means your regular kind of speech. But the Greek stresses that it doesn't only includes groanings escaping from our lips in prayer but also praying in other tongues in 1 cor 14:14 you quoted.

mbaemeka:
1 Corinthians 14:14 AMP

For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody].
Very Apt.

Don't even link it to tongue atall, because Paul was not advocating for tongue speaking in this church of corinth. If anything, he was making them see how irrelevant tongue is to the general growth of the body of Christ.

Bidam:
Yea. The greek in Romans 8:26 literally reads "...the Holy Ghost maketh intercession for us in groanings that cannot be uttered in articulate speech".

What greek word are you talking about?

Jesus healing with spittle and mud is one of the diverse means of carrying out healing. I believe His diversity points to His creativity as God, He is not limited.

But Diversity of Spiritual gifts are fully expounded in the epistles. And this with very intelligent reasons. If Holy Spirit omitted some practices but later revealed them to you, then there was no point of revealing ANY manifestation.

Recall Peter saw Cornelius manifesting the SAME gifts while he yet spake. Point is the Christian has a reference point, the recorded manifestation of the gifts and teachings of the same. Care to guess if Cornelius started barking like a dog or hissing like a snake whether Peter would have concluded that the Spirit had fallen on them?


Arrogance is when you remind everyone that you have spiritual gifts and therefore you win the argument. That's unnecessary. Who told you we don't? Only that our subjective experience is totally irrelevant to the discussion. It's no different from reminding us that you use Vaseline hand and body lotion

mbaemeka:


Paul mentioned interpretation of tongues in the book of Corinthians and that is how you knew about it. Period. Now tell us where Jesus got the idea that he could use spittle to heal a blind man and if you come up with any rubbish on sovereignty I would rest my case with you.



You and your delusions. That's why I eschew discussing with you.



I am quoting scriptures, stating how my experiences match up to the very scriptures and I am accused of "arrogantly flashing my works". As if it is my fault that you do not know the scriptures nor the author of the scriptures or can you prove me wrong by not evading my question again; do you speak in tongues or do you have any of the workings of the spirit as explained by Paul in Corinthians?

mbaemeka:

No we are not dealing with semantics. Groaned "in" the spirit means he didn't utter anything out but what Paul referred to in Romans 8:26 is how the Holy Spirit in a man causes him to groan outwardly in prayer. They differ and If you had experienced it you would have known

I still believe it is a matter of semantics. And your explanation above have not proven them different.

Paul was not teaching a doctrine there. Infact this was the only time in scripture that he expressed the Spirit's role as an intercessor through unutterable groans. Besides, there is no doctrine of 'Groaning' and to attach the word "eternal" to the "truth" is egregious if not distorted.

Do you know what doctrine means. It is simply teachings or a body of truth. God word is eternal, so also God's truth. Experiences vary. Why is this difficult for you to understand. Romans 8:26 is part of a biblical doctrine on prayers. What is egregarious about that?

I say a big AMEN to the emboldened. I have not made the scriptures to say anything like the "doctrine of groaning". I however have shown that there is no hard and fast rule to decide how the Holy spirit will choose to manifest himself and those who try to box him only do so because they do not know him.

And I respond with a resounding "Amen" too, at the bolded.

While we cannot box the Spirit in, the saints are called to "prove all things and to unto what is good" 1Thess 5. There is a standard to judge by and I have enumerated them to you.

There is nothing in the scriptures that even suggests that the workings of the spirit are measured by 1 & 2 especially when both items are subjective to the recipients and not the onlookers. And really anyone who has close fellowship with the Holy spirit would have known that. The bible gives us 2 benchmarks for measuring spiritual things: The Spirit and the Word (scriptures), period.

1. Righteousness, peace and joy: Romans 14
2. Liberty in the Spirit, 2 Cor 3:17
3. God's Word, the bible.

Those two standards Spirit and Word are covered in my listing. Spirit covers 1 and 2; Word is 3. A man can approach me and begin to preach and possibly do miracles. I will thank God for him but I will observe other things. I will request audience of his private life. I will observe how he treats his wife, his subordinates, what people in his office say about him, the freedom he permits others to operate by, etc. What he said and the miracles he did can be a testimony to his knowledge of the Word but his private life is a testimony to his Spirit. That's why no matter how we talk here, only our private can determine who we really are. Thank God for anonymous nature of nl but some of us cannot afford an inch of our private life to be known bc it stinks. And others who have kept theirs private are wise bc so msny people are so demented in their thinking that they very quickly leave issues being discussed to attack other people's private lifes which they innocently shared, possibly to butress a point.

My poin is that all three things I listed remains the yardstick to prove truth or error. You can call them Spirit and Word or the three I listed.

1 Corinthians 2: 10,11,12,13 (KJV)

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 . . .even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received. . . the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

It is the Holy spirit within that helps us to discern spiritual things. Natural men(lacking the spirit) or their wisdom and ways of reasoning will always see the things of the spirit as foolish but howbeit in the spirit they are mysteries.

That's true. This same Spirit helps us to know error too. He is a discerning Spirit like you said.

Hebrews 4:1221st Century King James Version (KJ21)
12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word of God is also a discerner of the intents and thoughts of the spirit

That's right.

As per whether WOF have the knowledge of the scriptures, this thread will tell. A Non-WOF just said there is a doctrine of "groaning" and now he has said liberty, righteousness, peace and joy are yardsticks for measuring spiritual things. We enjoin him to show us how he came about it.

Just did. Prove me wrong.

If you know enough be kind enough to share some of those experiences you have enjoyed from your fellowship with him and if you cannot do so we would rightly conclude that you have none. I also have constant fellowship with the Holy spirit with many experiences to back my claim whether you believe it or not. He told me that you do not have any fellowship with him and even if he didn't the very words of the scripture prove that you do not. We can do a random check, do you speak in tongues?

I really was going to come all out on you on the bolded but I just thought otherwise. It's not worth it. Especially when you are not even sure of what you clsim you heard from the "Spirit" and thus the need to put the safe caveat "even if he didn't..."

I would not be commenting on tongues on this thread as it will naturally derail it. I have a thread on mysticism where I discussed my position on tongues. You may go there and leave a comment and I will meet you.

Jesus said my sheep know my voice and the voice of a stranger they would not listen to. Jesus speaks 2 ways- through his word and through his spirit. Constant fellowship with his spirit will make the words clear and audible enough.

That's true but...

While Jesus speak through his word and his Spirit, there is nothing he has ever said through his Spirit thst cannot be found on the pages of scriptures. Thus tge saints are called to prove all things and discard whatever is being said by spirits that are not of him.

This is a personal jab meant at blackmailing you to back off.
Spirit has weighed your heart and found it wanting thus saith mbaemeka.
I find it decidedly curious that he resorts to the very tactics Jehovah's witnesses use when they are cornered;
1. Do not cast your pearl to swine
2. You are not Spirit filled so you don't and can't know the truth. You are a worthless primate

IF Spirit takes you to levels not recorded, against what do you measure them? This is the error of subjective progressive revelation where scriptures are not sufficient or not everything there is to God. It is mbaemeka's spiritual experiences and discernment that counts, perish the Epistles. This is how Joseph Smith birthed LDS and Ellen White SDA

If you know enough be kind enough to share some of those experiences you have enjoyed from your fellowship with him and if you cannot do so we would rightly conclude that you have none. I also have constant fellowship with the Holy spirit with many experiences to back my claim whether you believe it or not. He told me that you do not have any fellowship with him and even if he didn't the very words of the scripture prove that you do not. We can do a random check, do you speak in tongues?

WinsomeX:


While Jesus speak through his word and his Spirit, there is nothing he has ever said through his Spirit that cannot be found on the pages of scriptures. Thus the saints are called to prove all things and discard whatever is being said by spirits that are not of him.

Bidam:
Yea. The greek in Romans 8:26 literally reads "...the Holy Ghost maketh intercession for us in groanings that cannot be uttered in articulate speech".

Articulate speech means your regular kind of speech. But the Greek stresses that it doesn't only includes groanings escaping from our lips in prayer but also praying in other tongues in 1 cor 14:14 you quoted.

What an interpreter!!!
Clap for yourself.

What you are simply doing here is force your denominational position into your interpretation of scripture.
Also you want to cut & paste Bible verses to make your position come out while ignoring the context of each one.

Actually, am leaning against Romans 8:26 referring to tongues. My reasons are the Work of the Holy Spirit is called INTERCESSION. That means praying on our behalf. But when praying in tongues, it is my spirit praying not Holy Spirit praying for me.

I call to remembrance the High priestly role of Christ in heaven where He liveth to make INTERCESSION for us. Is whatever Jesus doing different from what the Spirit does, because Jesus is depicted as a separate entity from the believer actively doing something FOR him? It is hard to make INTERCESSION of the Spirit FOR me to mean my prayers

INTERCESSION therefore is the KEY to unravelling Romans 8:26 and not the unutterable groans

Bidam:
Yea. The greek in Romans 8:26 literally reads "...the Holy Ghost maketh intercession for us in groanings that cannot be uttered in articulate speech".

Articulate speech means your regular kind of speech. But the Greek stresses that it doesn't only includes groanings escaping from our lips in prayer but also praying in other tongues in 1 cor 14:14 you quoted.

vooks:


This is a personal jab meant at blackmailing you to back off.
Spirit has weighed your heart and found it wanting thus saith mbaemeka.
I find it decidedly curious that he resorts to the very tactics Jehovah's witnesses use when they are cornered;
1. Do not cast your pearl to swine
2. You are not Spirit filled so you don't and can't know the truth. You are a worthless primate

My guy, the thing tire me o!

Unlike you, that quotes out of context, i do quote in context. The Holy Spirit doesn't groan outside believers. The Holy Spirit is not an 'itself' rendering of the greek in KJV, so we have to know WHO the Holy Spirit is, What He does and How He does His things. So in order not to "force" our opinions into what Paul is saying like your 'friends in arms' are doing here, we have to interprete scripture with scripture

trustman:


What an interpreter!!!
Clap for yourself.

What you are simply doing here is force your denominational position into your interpretation of scripture.
Also you want to cut & paste Bible verses to make your position come out while ignoring the context of each one.

So it is of no use arguing with folks who don't believe in spiritual gifts, the arguments have been on for centuries. It is best to keep quiet about what you don't know rather than belittle and blaspheme the person of the Holy Spirit.

If you have contrary views say so, rather than troll on my posts.

That's the whole point; depict you as unqualified to question him. So now it is about who speaks in tongues and who doesn't. if both of you do, it is about who speaks in tongues of angels and who doesn't. Again if both of you speak in tongues of angels, it will be about who has been speaking in tongues of angels for the longest. This is pentecostal pharisee spirit right here.

Am used to him, call me a satanist but respond to my points or withdraw yours. THe beauty of NL is even when nobody concedes, the other readers can easily tell who is desperately clinging to weak doctrines at all costs as well as who is indoctrinated

WinsomeX:


My guy, the thing tire me o!

Who told you he does not believe in the spiritual gifts?
See that's your strategy too, perch yourself on a pedestal far above your 'opponent' and claim they are immature,newbies,babies or fetuses,carnal, not Spirit baptized/filled/drunk....

Disputing the claim of speaking/praying in tongues in Romans does not mean that I don't believe in the gifts. Just saying whatever Paul is saying here is not tongues

Bidam:
Unlike you, that quotes out of context, i do quote in context. The Holy Spirit doesn't groan outside believers. The Holy Spirit is not an 'itself' rendering of the greek in KJV, so we have to know WHO the Holy Spirit is, What He does and How He does His things. So in order not to "force" our opinions into what Paul is saying like your 'friends in arms' are doing here, we have to interprete scripture with scripture So it is of no use arguing with folks who don't believe in spiritual gifts, the arguments have been on for centuries. It is best to keep quiet about what you don't know rather than belittle and blaspheme the person of the Holy Spirit.

If you have contrary views say so, rather than troll on my posts.

Bidam:
Unlike you, that quotes out of context, i do quote in context. The Holy Spirit doesn't groan outside believers. The Holy Spirit is not an 'itself' rendering of the greek in KJV, so we have to know WHO the Holy Spirit is,
....................

If you have contrary views say so, rather than troll on my posts.

If you were really reading others posts you'll have seen that the translation i posted read:
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

Secondly, I wrote on the Holy Spirit in my presentation at the E-grace Convention. Maybe again you never cared to follow the presentations. Perhaps you should go back and see my presentation before you end up making unfounded statements.

trustman:


If you were really reading others posts you'll have seen that the translation i posted read:
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

Secondly, I wrote on the Holy Spirit in my presentation at the E-grace Convention. Maybe again you never cared to follow the presentations. Perhaps you should go back and see my presentation before you end up making unfounded statements.

I don't read your presentations neither am i a fan of yours. It's either you paste a contrary opinion of yours HERE or stop trolling.

vooks:
Who told you he does not believe in the spiritual gifts?
See that's your strategy too, perch yourself on a pedestal far above your 'opponent' and claim they are immature,newbies,babies or fetuses,carnal, not Spirit baptized/filled/drunk....

Your opinion, if he does, he is mature enough to answer for himself.

Disputing the claim of speaking/praying in tongues in Romans does not mean that I don't believe in the gifts. Just saying whatever Paul is saying here is not tongues

So how does the Holy Spirit groans or utter words that cannot be expressed in articulate speech? Does the Holy Spirit function outside believers?

shdemidemi:

Did the bible say that?
Do you know what 'spirit' is?
It is like air, it can be everywhere at the same time, no restrictions.
1 John 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
My little children can only be believers bro not just men.
The mistake you make is thinking we become epitome of spirituality simply because we become believers. It isn't so. A christian with the Holy Spirit in him can commit adultery, he can kill, he can lie (and that is not the fault of the Holy Spirit) if he does not get transformed by the renewing of his mind through God's word daily.
The Holy Spirit can't work effectively in a christian that is in total conformity with the world. Such Christian does not even know God let alone His will. If such christian says he is prompted by any spirit, it will definitely not be the Holy Spirit because the devil/the world has higher dominance over such believer.
P.S God and the devil transmit information through our mind. If you do not understand or study God's word enough, you might be mistaking the devils influence on you for God.

Unlike some people here, I do not just post anything I like and start retracting them based on how wrong others expose my posts to be. I am quoting verses that I have studied for a while by the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Now you are asking me if I know who the spirit or just a spirit is and I feel that question is misplaced because I know who the Holy Spirit is very very well. And I am not even trying to boast here.

That Romans 8:26 used a word "Helpeth". Go and study that word in greek. It means a joint help - a help that 2 people working together give to themselves. That's why I told you that the Holy Spirit does not pray on his own. He uses a believer to pray and no I didn't say he is restricted but in his operation he works THROUGH believers. That's what 'suntailambanonai' or so translated as helps means. Please study.

As per Jesus being an advocate to christians. Again understand context and stop shifting the goal. You first claimed that the verse was similar to the Romans 8:26 and I said no because in 1 John the bible said Jesus is an advocate WITH the father while Romans 8 and John 14 said the Holy Spirit is ADVOCATING in Us. That's the first aspect. Secondly, yes John said my little children but why was he writing to them? He was writing because baby christians have the same consciousness with sinners (or the world of men in general) I.e they are sin-conscious. So John told them Little children, even if you sin you have an advocate with the Father- Jesus Christ. Then he went on further to prove that the information was for babes and the world in the next verse where he says Jesus is the propitiation for not just your sins but also the sins of the world. And I explained why before even as I would do so again for the last time: God the father is now resident in Jesus who is seated on the throne in heaven. Jesus sitting on the throne with his blood is the proof that men can be saved. So if our hearts make us doubt that we are saved we know that as long as he is on the throne we need not fear, for he is proof that we are saved.

Jesus is not praying to the Father or begging him to forgive anyone. Jesus is there as proof that we are forgiven.

Conclusively, the Holy Spirit is IN a christian and as we fellowship with him he likewise helps us during prayer to pray according to God's will. If anyone hasn't experienced this already and they claim to be fellowshiping with the spirit, then they are lying and do not doing the truth.

shdemidemi:


Don't even link it to tongue atall, because Paul was not advocating for tongue speaking in this church of corinth. If anything, he was making them see how irrelevant tongue is to the general growth of the body of Christ.

Absolute rubbish and should not be heard or found in the mouth of a christian.

vooks:
Jesus healing with spittle and mud is one of the diverse means of carrying out healing. I believe His diversity points to His creativity as God, He is not limited.

But Diversity of Spiritual gifts are fully expounded in the epistles. And this with very intelligent reasons. If Holy Spirit omitted some practices but later revealed them to you, then there was no point of revealing ANY manifestation.

Recall Peter saw Cornelius manifesting the SAME gifts while he yet spake. Point is the Christian has a reference point, the recorded manifestation of the gifts and teachings of the same. Care to guess if Cornelius started barking like a dog or hissing like a snake whether Peter would have concluded that the Spirit had fallen on them?


Arrogance is when you remind everyone that you have spiritual gifts and therefore you win the argument. That's unnecessary. Who told you we don't? Only that our subjective experience is totally irrelevant to the discussion. It's no different from reminding us that you use Vaseline hand and body lotion

The Holy Spirit told Jesus to use spittle and he did. That's how the Holy Spirit is. Secondly, there is a gift of the Holy Spirit and there are WORKINGS of the Holy Spirit. You see how you keep exposing yourself? You didn't know this because you do not have the gift nor know the giver. Peter saw Cornelius display the gift of the Holy Spirit but did he see cloven tongues of fire? Did he see a mighty rush of wind? Those are WORKINGS and they cannot be boxed Mister.

Arrogance is that you do not know or understand something, but you delve into the debate with nothing to contribute and when you are challenged to prove to that you have something meaningful to contribute you start throwing invectives and conjectures.

If you have experienced any workings of the Holy Spirit please share them with us. Let us compare it with Paul's. That's just what I want to establish. And if you cannot, we can conclude that the only reason you disbelieve Kenneth Hagin's experience is because you have none for yourself. Period.

WinsomeX:


I still believe it is a matter of semantics. And your explanation above have not proven them different.



Do you know what doctrine means. It is simply teachings or a body of truth. God word is eternal, so also God's truth. Experiences vary. Why is this difficult for you to understand. Romans 8:26 is part of a biblical doctrine on prayers. What is egregarious about that?



And I respond with a resounding "Amen" too, at the bolded.

While we cannot box the Spirit in, the saints are called to "prove all things and to unto what is good" 1Thess 5. There is a standard to judge by and I have enumerated them to you.



1. Righteousness, peace and joy: Romans 14
2. Liberty in the Spirit, 2 Cor 3:17
3. God's Word, the bible.

Those two standards Spirit and Word are covered in my listing. Spirit covers 1 and 2; Word is 3. A man can approach me and begin to preach and possibly do miracles. I will thank God for him but I will observe other things. I will request audience of his private life. I will observe how he treats his wife, his subordinates, what people in his office say about him, the freedom he permits others to operate by, etc. What he said and the miracles he did can be a testimony to his knowledge of the Word but his private life is a testimony to his Spirit. That's why no matter how we talk here, only our private can determine who we really are. Thank God for anonymous nature of nl but some of us cannot afford an inch of our private life to be known bc it stinks. And others who have kept theirs private are wise bc so msny people are so demented in their thinking that they very quickly leave issues being discussed to attack other people's private lifes which they innocently shared, possibly to butress a point.

My poin is that all three things I listed remains the yardstick to prove truth or error. You can call them Spirit and Word or the three I listed.



That's true. This same Spirit helps us to know error too. He is a discerning Spirit like you said.



That's right.



Just did. Prove me wrong.



I really was going to come all out on you on the bolded but I just thought otherwise. It's not worth it. Especially when you are not even sure of what you clsim you heard from the "Spirit" and thus the need to put the safe caveat "even if he didn't..."

I would not be commenting on tongues on this thread as it will naturally derail it. I have a thread on mysticism where I discussed my position on tongues. You may go there and leave a comment and I will meet you.


That's true but...

While Jesus speak through his word and his Spirit, there is nothing he has ever said through his Spirit thst cannot be found on the pages of scriptures. Thus tge saints are called to prove all things and discard whatever is being said by spirits that are not of him.

If you say that I employed mere semantics to the scriptures, you are allowed to and if you do not understand it, you are also allowed to as understanding isn't granted to everyone. FYI Jesus used "semantics' to disprove lifelong traditions and beliefs of the Pharisees of his day.

Secondly, the word I used was Egregious and NOT Egregarious. Please do well to understand the meanings. I will let whatever you said about doctrines slide as even your allies didn't seem to agree with you but for the sake of posterity, there is NOTHING like Doctrine of groaning. Paul was given a subjective experience that some christians like himself would have encountered. He didn't teach groaning there as any eternal truth. Even Angry men groan and many of them are children of the devil.

As per righteousness, peace and the rest, please be humble enough to digress when you are WIDE OFF the mark. You are struggling with the scriptures to defend the indefensible simply because you would not own up and learn. There are ONLY two ways of measuring spiritual things and the bible said the spirit and the word. If a Buddhist monk does not sin does it make him righteous? If Dangote has peace with himself does it mean he is of the spirit?

Please quit the bull. Righteousness, peace and joy are part of the fruits of the recreated human spirit. They are not yardsticks and the bible never said so anywhere. So you can either put out a corroborating scripture or learn the lesson today- from a WOF related person.

As per what the Holy Spirit said to me I can stand by. My statement "even if he didn't say" was my way of saying I already had the witness to that fact from the word before the author of the word spoke and your position on a lot of things especially the person of the Holy Spirit is all the proof any one needs. You called the gift of tongues a mystic practice. That says it all.

Don't forget, you prove all things by the spirit and the word and not by what you feel or what you have experienced personally.

Call them Gifts or Workings, they are restricted to what scriptures say.
tongues of fire happened once. Other instances they are not there so we don't look forward to them. Mighty rushing wind twice. But in Cornelius none of that happened so again this is not a must.

Scriptures have enough diversity of manifestation of the Spirit son! Anything outside this is not of the Holy Spirit

mbaemeka:


The Holy Spirit told Jesus to use spittle and he did. That's how the Holy Spirit is. Secondly, there is a gift of the Holy Spirit and there are WORKINGS of the Holy Spirit. You see how you keep exposing yourself? You didn't know this because you do not have the gift nor know the giver. Peter saw Cornelius display the gift of the Holy Spirit but did he see cloven tongues of fire? Did he see a mighty rush of wind? Those are WORKINGS and they cannot be boxed Mister.

[size=3pt]Arrogance is that you do not know or understand something, but you delve into the debate with nothing to contribute and when you are challenged to prove to that you have something meaningful to contribute you start throwing invectives and conjectures.

If you have experienced any workings of the Holy Spirit please share them with us. Let us compare it with Paul's. That's just what I want to establish. And if you cannot, we can conclude that the only reason you disbelieve Kenneth Hagin's experience is because you have none for yourself. Period.[/size]

vooks:
This is a personal jab meant at blackmailing you to back off.
Spirit has weighed your heart and found it wanting thus saith mbaemeka.
I find it decidedly curious that he resorts to the very tactics Jehovah's witnesses use when they are cornered;
1. Do not cast your pearl to swine
2. You are not Spirit filled so you don't and can't know the truth. You are a worthless primate

IF Spirit takes you to levels not recorded, against what do you measure them? This is the error of subjective progressive revelation where scriptures are not sufficient or not everything there is to God. It is mbaemeka's spiritual experiences and discernment that counts, perish the Epistles. This is how Joseph Smith birthed LDS and Ellen White SDA

Mr neither here nor there. I haven't said the Spirit took me to any experience that is without the confines of the scripture but even if I did, please share yours with us so we can know and understand what shapes your own convictions and how they measure up with the giftings and workings of the Holy Spirit.

vooks:
Call them Gifts or Workings, they are restricted to what scriptures say.
tongues of fire happened once. Other instances they are not there so we don't look forward to them. Mighty rushing wind twice. But in Cornelius none of that happened so again this is not a must.

Scriptures have enough diversity of manifestation of the Spirit son! Anything outside this is not of the Holy Spirit

Off point again without answering my own questions. The workings of the spirit cannot be boxed. That's what I am trying to show to you and it is different from the gifts. Let me explain with an example: there is a gift of healing but the workings for that gift cannot be boxed. So the Holy Spirit can say "Vooks spit on him and his tumor will leave". You see, your spitting does not mean that any time you see a tumor you spit. That's where many got it wrong. The only reason you spat at the time was that the Author of healings told you to. Now you may not find any instance where anyone spat to elicit a miracle in the bible, yet it doesn't make the spitting not of God especially when Jesus was being glorified during the healing.

Hope you understand.

What Gift of the Spirit does the laughing WORK, following your healing analogy?
And what do you understand as the difference between a Gift and a Working?

mbaemeka:


Off point again without answering my own questions. The workings of the spirit cannot be boxed. That's what I am trying to show to you and it is different from the gifts. Let me explain with an example: there is a gift of healing but the workings for that gift cannot be boxed. So the Holy Spirit can say "Vooks spit on him and his tumor will leave". You see, your spitting does not mean that any time you see a tumor you spit. That's where many got it wrong. The only reason you spat at the time was that the Author of healings told you to. Now you may not find any instance where anyone spat to elicit a miracle in the bible, yet it doesn't make the spitting not of God especially when Jesus was being glorified during the healing.

Hope you understand.

Bidam:
I don't read your presentations neither am i a fan of yours. It's either you paste a contrary opinion of yours HERE or stop trolling.

Your sometimes childish responses not only show your level of spiritual maturity but also the spirit at work in you.

You seem more excited at trying to put-down others than engage in clear discuss.

Since one see some of you guys as more of clowns the thing then is to get amused by you when you comment and hope on the other hand that more serious minded readers will be able to sift the wheat from the chaff.

mbaemeka,

I had hoped you will permit for us to round up this discuss but somehow your obstinacy will not allow. By experience, my discussions with you on nl are always "bloody", to the point that you chose not to respond to me again on this forum at a time; why you again returned, I cannot tell. I like it though because it challenges my thinking and even drives me to pray too. So it has it's place but while at some point or the other I do concede to you, you never had done so anywhere on this forum that I know of. I must however appreciate one thing, you have taken to correction to not use invectives at me; a point you will still not agree to but your posts actually reveal. For that I thank. I hereby proceed to respond to your post.

mbaemeka:

If you say that I employed mere semantics to the scriptures, you are allowed to and if you do not understand it, you are also allowed to as understanding isn't granted to everyone. FYI Jesus used "semantics' to disprove lifelong traditions and beliefs of the Pharisees of his day.

For the sake of our readers, this is a rough definition of semantics: meaning of words; it could also mean petty quibbling over the meaning of words. Where in scriptures did Jesus use words in this manner. You may be referring to the sermon on the mount:

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire...

Is that semantics?

You said Paul said groaning "by" the Spirit and I quoted a scripture that agreed with that position where Jesus groaned "in" the Spirit. And you were there quibbling over the petty meaning of "in" and "by"; whatever "in" and "by" might mean, it was clear there was groaning. Those who try to twist the import of a scripture over little things like "by" or "in" are the ones guilty of semantics. Jesus was never guilty of such.

mbaemeka:

Secondly, the word I used was Egregious and NOT Egregarious. Please do well to understand the meanings. I will let whatever you said about doctrines slide as even your allies didn't seem to agree with you but for the sake of posterity, there is NOTHING like Doctrine of groaning. Paul was given a subjective experience that some christians like himself would have encountered. He didn't teach groaning there as any eternal truth. Even Angry men groan and many of them are children of the devil.

I actually mis spelt the "egregious" word. I checked the meaning immediately and it revealed my suspicion: something that is outrageously bad. I cannot fathom how calling something a doctrine is "outrageously bad" o. Doctrine is teaching. Paul's letters were sent to teach some people then and us today. The epistles were not written with a desire to teach a systematic body of doctrine. But having the scriptures in full now, we can come to conclusion on basic doctrines like Redemption, Trinity, Salvation, Escathology, Prayers, etc. I cannot fathom why calling what Paul said of groaning in the Spirit a kind of doctrine on prayers and how such is "egregious" o.

mbaemeka:

As per righteousness, peace and the rest, please be humble enough to digress when you are WIDE OFF the mark. You are struggling with the scriptures to defend the indefensible simply because you would not own up and learn. There are ONLY two ways of measuring spiritual things and the bible said the spirit and the word. If a Buddhist monk does not sin does it make him righteous? If Dangote has peace with himself does it mean he is of the spirit?
Please quit the bull. Righteousness, peace and joy are part of the fruits of the recreated human spirit. They are not yardsticks and the bible never said so anywhere. So you can either put out a corroborating scripture or learn the lesson today- from a WOF related person.

Here you are insisting that Matthew 22:29 can only be the means or yardstick to test error. I have not disagreed with you but rather pointed out other means of proving things are truth but you will rather insist it must be your way: Matthew 22:29 states that we should test all thing by the Word and the Spirit (that's the order of the KJV). I said the Spirit can be translated to righteousness, joy, peace and liberty. You disagree. Would you want us to believe someone who is showing all spiritual powers and supposed soundness in the word/preaching but whose life is bankrupt morally? Or you think it is not possible? Again, doctrine are verified by two or more scriptures in the bible. Never just one. It is not enough to say the only means of testing error in church is Matthew 22:29; that will be preposterous. By the mouth of two or more witnesses, a matter is confirmed; including doctrine.

What about the scripture in Matthew 5 where Jesus warned against wolves. Didn't he say that by their fruit you shall know them. Did he say by their Spirit and their word? Apparently fruit refer to righteousness.

mbaemeka:

As per what the Holy Spirit said to me I can stand by. My statement "even if he didn't say" was my way of saying I already had the witness to that fact from the word before the author of the word spoke and your position on a lot of things especially the person of the Holy Spirit is all the proof any one needs. You called the gift of tongues a mystic practice. That says it all

I feel honored that some spirit will speak to you about me. The father of lies too once said to some boys "Jesus I know, Paul I know..."; it is obvious WinsomeX is known in that kingdom. Thank you for the message.

Please provide the quote where I said that speaking in tongues was a mystic practice on this thread or on the other thread I referred you to, or allow our readers to conclude who is lying and who is hearing lies from spirits.

mbaemeka:
Don't forget, you prove all things by the spirit and the word and not by what you feel or what you have experienced personally

Not by feeling or experience you say... At the least we end this discussion in agreement. Because that's about what I have been contending mystics on since forever!

This is what I wrote on mysticism in the other thread. incidentally, I not only spoke on tongues, I also talked about hearing voices. And here on this thread, I have a message from the other world... am I not lucky? lol.

WinsomeX:
Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind

The above text is the reason for this thread titled "Are you guilty of practising mysticism?". I did not open the thread to find out about mystics; I opened the thread to show that mysticism is actually anti Christian and therefore Antichrist. I am glad however that many mystics have found the thread to espouse their theology. Those of you who find then inviting, may imbibe it to the detriment of your souls and to your eternal damnation. My concern for the thread is with my own constituency: the church. Particularly Pentecostals. I hope to show that they are in danger of delving into mysticism and that the so called results they obtain or the spirits they hear actually cab actually be of demonic origin. I base my premise on the word of God as quoted above in Colossians 2:18.

Let us be reminded of the purpose of Paul writing to the Colossians. It was to warn them of a certain false gospel called Gnosticism. The Gnostics had various dimensions in which they operated: including, intellectualism, ritualism, mysticism and legalism. Paul addressed these issues in that order from Colossians 2: 8-23. In Colossians 2:18, he began to speak on mysticism. He enumerated the following as their stock in trade:

1. Voluntary humility and worshiping of angels.
2. Taking authority from visions.
3. Pride from a fleshly mind.

1. Worshipping of Angels: A group guilty of this practise in Christendom are Catholics and white garment churches. Make no mistake about it, these people have had tremendous experiences from these devotions and thus are enslaved to them. The reason why many of them hold to these practices is bc they have found solution to life challenges through them. So now they are enslaved.

2. Visions: Those guilty of these are mostly pentecostals. Some tell of Jesus appearing to them to teach doctrines not found in the bible. Some make trips to heaven and hell, returning to tell their stories in bestseller books and largely attended conferences. While I do not deny God can give visions, vision in themselves are not final authority. If whatever vision you have do not line up with scripture, may that vision perish with you.

3. The result in all of the two above is pride, and not faith or humility. First the individual that has these experiences puts on the toga of exclusivity. He is seen as special. He is proud; basing his pride on a fleshly thing, a vision rather than God's word. But God's word says the just will live by faith: Faith in Christ and a deep humility that resorts from being a debtor to God's grace in Christ.

I said all of that to warn my Pentecostal friends against mysticism and to ask them to beware of delving into realms that are wholly dominated by demonic spirits. In this vain I would like to speak briefly on the following practices in such churches:

1. Speaking with tongues.
2. Hearing voices.
3. Fasting.

1. Tongues: My study of scriptures reveal that tongues is a valid gift of the Spirit. But I must of certainty agree with many who question the modern day practices of speaking with tongues, in the basis that much of those tongues cannot be interpreted and of necessity are gibberish. I believe that a valid gift of tongue which can still operate today, will come with interpretation or be a means to evangelize hitherto unreached nations for Jesus. I fear that much of tongue praying today is speaking gibberish into the air and Satan's wise way of denying the Christian an opportunity for rich communion with God. I sincerely believe that the tongue practise should be investigated more closely by Christians with the view to judging its scriptural foundation and if found faulty, the practice discarded.

2. Hearing voices: This is another mystical dimension of Pentecostalism that is worrisome. The phrase "God told me.." is so prevalent in these religious circles that one begins to wonder if God is talkative. Most of the epistles were written with apostolic authority and rarely do we find any of them saying God told them anything. Except Revelation that was a clear encounter with Christ. In the Old Testament, we see God appearing to the prophets in far in between periods. How this same God has suddenly developed a penchant for always talking is bewildering. John warned us that many spirits have gone into the world. Are these the spirit speaking to these people? Whatever any man says he heard from God, let us know that the bible is the final authority. If what a man hears does not line up with scripture, it is not God. If however another man claim he heard nothing but is doing the bible, follow that man. Let us be aware of all these God told me talk. Its the root of many extra biblical doctrines.

3. Fasting: a legitimate spiritual exercise when inspired by God. However, Lengthy fasting periods not directed by God can open up a man to new dimensions in the spirit realm. And anyone not properly grounded can have encounters with evil spirits that will forever influence with him negatively. The story is told of how Mohammed encountered an angel in a cave who gave him the Quran. It all started through a quest into mysticism. Many Pentecostals in the quest for anointing indulge in protracted fastings, the results are usually revelations that lead to extra biblical teachings. Let us beware.

In conclusion, I remind us of MacArthur statement that I put at the OP:

Mysticism may be defined as the pursuit of a deeper or higher subjective religious experience. It is the belief that spiritual reality is perceived apart from the human intellect and natural senses. It looks for truth internally, weighing feelings, intuition, and other internal sensations more heavily than objective, observable, external data. Mysticism ultimately derives its authority from a self-actualized, self authenticated light arising from within. This irrational and anti- intellectual approach is the antithesis of Christian theology.

Biblical truths should be learnt via objective studies into scriptures.
God's Spirit who authored it, is ever near to guide us into all truths. We do not need subjective experience or a certain word from the Lord to know biblical truth. They are open to us if we are studios and prayerful enough in our study. I do not deny the fact that God can reward such studious endeavors with certain subjective experiences but it will not be the norm. And even when they happen, they cannot supercede the authority of scripture and our duty is not to go looking for them.

I still will like to hear the opinions of leading Pentecostals on this forum in this matter. I hope Bidam, who has written a bit on pentecostalism here, will honor the invitation; and Image123, along with others.

Cheers.

www.nairaland.com/1955990/guilty-practising-mysticism

mbaemeka:

Unlike some people here, I do not just post anything I like and start retracting them based on how wrong others expose my posts to be. I am quoting verses that I have studied for a while by the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Now you are asking me if I know who the spirit or just a spirit is and I feel that question is misplaced because I know who the Holy Spirit is very very well. And I am not even trying to boast here.

You tend to think of yourself more highly than you ought to. One will almost think Mba gives relevance to the body of Christ and not the other way round. Don't be overtly wise in your conceit my friend, you are a learner of the Word, regardless of the depth of God's knowledge you think you have acquired, He reveals Himself in deeper dimensions to every man which makes it impossible to exhaust God's word.

mbaemeka:

That Romans 8:26 used a word "Helpeth". Go and study that word in greek. It means a joint help - a help that 2 people working together give to themselves. That's why I told you that the Holy Spirit does not pray on his own. He uses a believer to pray and no I didn't say he is restricted but in his operation he works THROUGH believers. That's what 'suntailambanonai' or so translated as helps means. Please study.

The word used in greek is 'sunantilambano' meaning 'to take a share in, help in bearing, to help in general'. Where did you get your joint-help rendition from?

Don't be desperate to win an argument, it adds nothing to you or the Church. This is what that part of scripture says-

Rom 8a
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities- 'helpeth' here does not mean a joint-help like you tried to make it.

'infirmity' here means our inability to produce results.

mbaemeka:

As per Jesus being an advocate to christians. Again understand context and stop shifting the goal. You first claimed that the verse was similar to the Romans 8:26 and I said no because in 1 John the bible said Jesus is an advocate WITH the father while Romans 8 and John 14 said the Holy Spirit is ADVOCATING in Us.

My friend, you asked for a verse to back what I said about the Spirit's role as an advocate/intercessor. I gave you a verse that the Holy Spirit is not alone in this, The Son also act as an advocate for believers with God. I expected you to admit they both work as advocates for believers at least.

As for the argument of Jesus is with God, I said the Holy Spirit is in us just like God is in us and the son is in us. We have got these three persons working constantly on our behalf. These three constantly take counsel within the godhead, we don't need to know how these spirit beings go about these things in their realm. All we can do is believe because the book say so.

The Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf and the Son intercedes on our behalf to the Father, that is all tat matter. Why you think the Holy Spirit needs me to act uncanny or unearthly for God to pray is beyond me.

mbaemeka:

That's the first aspect. Secondly, yes John said my little children but why was he writing to them? He was writing because baby christians have the same consciousness with sinners (or the world of men in general) I.e they are sin-conscious.

1) He doesn't call the unbelieving world his children. It's the believing element that is being addressed

2)We're going to sin! You might as well admit it rather than the 'adult christian mentality' you would like to depict.

mbaemeka:
So John told them Little children, even if you sin you have an advocate with the Father- Jesus Christ. Then he went on further to prove that the information was for babes and the world in the next verse where he says Jesus is the propitiation for not just your sins but also the sins of the world.

He was not speaking to babes but all believers Mba. He made mention of the world to make it clear that the salvation story isn't just limited to a specific group but for the entire world if they believe.
1 john 2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours(believers) only, but also for the sins of the whole world(caveat: belief).

mbaemeka:

And I explained why before even as I would do so again for the last time: God the father is now resident in Jesus who is seated on the throne in heaven. Jesus sitting on the throne with his blood is the proof that men can be saved. So if our hearts make us doubt that we are saved we know that as long as he is on the throne we need not fear, for he is proof that we are saved.

Jesus is not praying to the Father or begging him to forgive anyone. Jesus is there as proof that we are forgiven.

Conclusively, the Holy Spirit is IN a christian and as we fellowship with him he likewise helps us during prayer to pray according to God's will. If anyone hasn't experienced this already and they claim to be fellowshiping with the spirit, then they are lying and do not doing the truth.

Have you visited the heavens to see what and how things work there? Please stay within what we have been told rather than try explain mysteries that are beyond us.

shdemidemi:

Don't even link it to tongue atall, because Paul was not advocating for tongue speaking in this church of corinth. If anything, he was making them see how irrelevant tongue is to the general growth of the body of Christ.

mbaemeka:

Absolute rubbish and should not be heard or found in the mouth of a christian.

Did Paul tell them to shut their mouths if there is no spiritually gifted person amongst them to interpret whatever they choose to say?

Do you have gifted interpreters in your church?

trustman:


Your sometimes childish responses not only show your level of spiritual maturity but also the spirit at work in you.

You seem more excited at trying to put-down others than engage in clear discuss.

Since one see some of you guys as more of clowns the thing then is to get amused by you when you comment and hope on the other hand that more serious minded readers will be able to sift the wheat from the chaff.

Is it not rather funny that you are the one acting childish here with your ill unconvincing remarks? Care to show us and the more serious minded readers where i put down others?