vooks:
Whatever benefits we get in this present world, they don't make a Christian ANY better than the next Satanist. If it were not so, this reductio ad absurdum by Paul would not make sense

1 Cor 15:19 (KJV)
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Here is Paul comparing a Christian's present life to a non believer. Anything Christians claim, you find it in abundance among heathens be it your long-life, health, wealth....with perhaps exception of spiritual warfare

The verse supports me. If our hope in christ was ONLY in this life we would have been in trouble. But thank God our hope is NOT ONLY in this life but in this life and in the life to come.

And why would goDs be in trouble seeing they enjoy long life, health and wealth whenever and wherever they command it stuff ordinary mortals and baby Christians can only fantasize about?

See the point is to demonstrate how futile Christianity is in absence of eternity so much that there actually no point being in Christ

mbaemeka:


The verse supports me. If our hope in christ was ONLY in this life we would have been in trouble. But thank God our hope is NOT ONLY in this life but in this life and in the life to come.

vooks:
And why would goDs be in trouble seeing they enjoy long life, health and wealth whenever and wherever they command it stuff ordinary mortals and baby Christians can only fantasize about?

See the point is to demonstrate how futile Christianity is in absence of eternity so much that there actually no point being in Christ

Everything is futile without eternity but Christianity does not begin at Eternity. It begins here and now. The strongest conviction that the lame man at the beautiful gate would have had about the resurrection of Jesus (and therefore proof of the afterlife) is that the man's name still did what the actual man was doing before he checked out. So if any Sadducee had told the man that his faith in a 'dead' Jesus was hopeless, the man could have easily pointed to his formerly lame legs to say "How can a man who is dead do this for me? Does it not prove that he is still alive?"

CAN is an interesting word; it points to possibilities.
I will not say Jesus CAN forgive sins but rather Jesus forgives sins.

The error is teaching believers that Jesus is dishing out health,wealth and longevity and all it takes is your great faith to access this failure to which you will never access none of them. Faith is not measurable so I can always dismiss your supposed great faith as too little to command these into your life. Or your character can't possess them. All convenient excuses for explaining away the inconsistencies.

You study men of Faith to observe faith at work, but you can't point to nobody to observe this doctrine working out. But you are undeterred, you look to Jesus not to men! Why read books by men, read Jesus

mbaemeka:


I also believe that true peace and joy is in christ alone. But not just true peace and joy: true wealth, true prosperity, true health, true wisdom, true security etc. They can only be found in Christ. So when you tell people that they can get all but the first two from the world, you are teaching a false message because Christ also gives the rest and a plethora of scriptures say so.

^^^^

When people expressed worries about their needs why did Jesus refer to it as 'little faith'? Why did he in turn teach them that their HEAVENLY FATHER would PROVIDE ALL those things for them if they do not worry?

See, you cannot hold unto one side and then call others thieves for holding unto all. David did not say "I am the king of Israel, I will not want" he said "The lord is my shepherd". This means God also takes care of his children's wants.....

Excellent submission
Christianity begins the moment faith in Christ is birthed in your spirit. This happened as Cornelius and co. sat listening to Peter.
On that verse, whatever benefits you can point to following Christians in this life, Paul felt Christians were the most pitiable of all men. How could he think this of a group that is privy to health,wealth and longevity?

Am certain you can see this point but you are avoiding it
Remember Paul is just pointing to the absurdity of faith in Christ if there were no eternity. It can't possibly be absurd for somebody enjoying all those goodies

mbaemeka:


Everything is futile without eternity but Christianity does not begin at Eternity. It begins here and now. The strongest conviction that the lame man at the beautiful gate would have had about the resurrection of Jesus (and therefore proof of the afterlife) is that the man's name still did what the actual man was doing before he checked out. So if any Sadducee had told the man that his faith in a 'dead' Jesus was hopeless, the man could have easily pointed to his formerly lame legs to say "How can a man who is dead do this for me? Does it not prove that he is still alive?"

Besides, the CAN there shows it is available in Christ but if one does not take a hold of it they will not experience it in their lives. Jesus is in the same token not dishing out any forgiveness per se. We are supposed to receive it as he has already given it. Same way with prosperity, security etc. Some people saw Jesus as only a teacher and all they got from him was his teaching messages. Some others saw Jesus as a Prophet and they benefited from his prophecies. Some others saw him as a healer and of course he healed them but there are some others who saw him as the SAVIOR of the world and to them he offered salvation.

It matters how you see Jesus. In the OT God said "I am the one who gives you the power to get wealth". So when did he relinquish that power?

vooks:
Excellent submission
Christianity begins the moment faith in Christ is birthed in your spirit. This happened as Cornelius and co. sat listening to Peter.
On that verse, whatever benefits you can point to following Christians in this life, Paul felt Christians were the most pitiable of all men. How could he think this of a group that is privy to health,wealth and longevity?

Am certain you can see this point but you are avoiding it
Remember Paul is just pointing to the absurdity of faith in Christ if there were no eternity. It can't possibly be absurd for somebody enjoying all those goodies

You are conflating things. I know about Eternity and we agree on that but you deny the present and that is what I want you to see. It is the same Paul that said the gospel benefits us in this world and in the world to come. He didn't say it was absurd to believe the gospel could benefit us here. Eutychus is proof that the gospel benefits us here, the man at Lystra/Lycaonia is another proof.

This is a highly intuitive argument; forgiveness is for those who reach out for it so why not health,wealth and longevity?
There are ample verses supporting INSTANT forgiveness for sins but none on health ,wealth and longevity.
Jesus forgiving sins is most certainly a bigger feat than healing and so seeing he forgives sins, health,wealth and longevity or even immortality is nothing. It just is not how he works.

The amount of comfort you wish in this world from Jesus is not guaranteed nowhere in the scriptures. The reasons are simple; we live in a fallen creation and are housed in fallen bodies. These two limit the extent to which we can enjoy the benefits of salvation. And it is the reason our bodies will be transformed and the whole creation melt away

mbaemeka:
Besides, the CAN there shows it is available in Christ but if one does not take a hold of it they will not experience it in their lives. Jesus is in the same token not dishing out any forgiveness per se. We are supposed to receive it as he has already given it. Same way with prosperity, security etc. Some people saw Jesus as only a teacher and all they got from him was his teaching messages. Some others saw Jesus as a Prophet and they benefited from his prophecies. Some others saw him as a healer and of course he healed them but there are some others who saw him as the SAVIOR of the world and to them he offered salvation.

It matters how you see Jesus. In the OT God said "I am the one who gives you the power to get wealth". So when did he relinquish that power?

No sir, am not denying the PRESENT, it is you who is demanding more from the present that there really is.
The total benefits available to the IDEAL Christian presently were so few that Paul felt Christians should be pitiable IF the PRESENT (which you stash with longevity,health and wealth) was all there was to Christianity. This coming from a man who spoke in tongues than most, met Christ in person and worked miracles not to mention penned 2/3 of NT is not to be taken lightly. Sometimes the message of WOF is so strange to Pauline epistles it is almost as if the proponents are telling us that they knew better than Paul

Look, why would Christians be the MOST pitiable if there were no resurrection?

mbaemeka:


You are conflating things. I know about Eternity and we agree on that but you deny the present and that is what I want you to see. It is the same Paul that said the gospel benefits us in this world and in the world to come. He didn't say it was absurd to believe the gospel could benefit us here. Eutychus is proof that the gospel benefits us here, the man at Lystra/Lycaonia is another proof.

mbaemeka:


I also believe that true peace and joy is in christ alone. But not just true peace and joy: true wealth, true prosperity, true health, true wisdom, true security etc. They can only be found in Christ. So when you tell people that they can get all but the first two from the world, you are teaching a false message because Christ also gives the rest and a plethora of scriptures say so.

The difference is that God's peace and joy are not earthly but spiritual, they are the manifestation of the understanding of God's word in the life of Christians.

On the other hand, wealth, health, security, prosperity et al are all worldly frivolities that does not have anything to do with ones spirit but relevant in the realm of the body/flesh.

Remember, man is divided in to two parts- biological (connected to the dust we were made from) and a spiritual life ( created by God) connected to God.

Our biological body responds to Wealth health money etc but our spiritual being is linked and responds only to the Word of God.

interesting exchanges so far.

Mba weldone!

The troll has risen with his usual prevarications again.

trustman:


You were the first to ask a question. When you did it was not frivolous in your eyes. Then when a response came to your question it became frivolous and you suddenly don't have time for such.
What do we make of that?

A frivolous dishonest question to my question is NOT a response to start with.

You are the one actually detracting from the focus of the original issue. By moving away from whether the Christian's benefits are in the here and now to asking proof about those who teach whatever you're engaging in your usual roller coaster game.

This is the fourth time you will accuse me of your illogic you call logic. This is what you friend said when he quoted a scripture ignorantly and out of context and i challenged him.

vooks:
What the wealth,health and long-life advocates are telling you is that even if there was no eternity/resurrection,

And i challenged him by asking him to quote where WOF said even though there was no resurrection, instead of replying me as usual, he came up with a silly question and as typical of a troll that you are, you rose to his defense with a more sillier statement that i cannot quantify.

Vooks,


Romans 5:17 AMP

For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God's] overflowing grace (unmerited favor) and the free gift of righteousness [putting them into right standing with Himself] reign as kings in life through the one Man Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

The word used for 'receive' here is active in the Greek. It means to take a hold of; to grasp; to grab forcefully etc. It doesn't mean to be given and then you collect it.

Now Paul is saying those who TAKE A HOLD OF the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness WILL REIGN IN THIS LIFE AS KINGS by ONE, Jesus Christ.

How can you say Jesus offers us little in this life? How can you say he offers nothing? How can you say Paul didn't teach so? What does it mean to reign in life?

Now use this verse to interpret your last two posts.

shdemidemi:


The difference is that God's peace and joy are not earthly but spiritual, they are the manifestation of the understanding of God's word in the life of Christians.

On the other hand, wealth, health, security, prosperity et al are all worldly frivolities that does not have anything to do with ones spirit but relevant in the realm of the body/flesh.

Remember, man is divided in to two parts- biological (connected to the dust we were made from) and a spiritual life ( created by God) connected to God.

Our biological body responds to Wealth health money etc but our spiritual being is linked and responds only to the Word of God.

The spirit of man lives inside the flesh. So yes, we agree that the spirit (which is the real man) is more important than the flesh. But the flesh is what grants us access into this world without which we would not be here.

Now God told us he would take care of our fleshly needs even as he does our spiritual and you say I am wrong for telling people both? I can't possibly be. I am showing people the WHOLE COUNCEL of the word and not just one part. I cannot teach on ONLY the spirit, I would cheat myself of the vitalities in the flesh for e.g, Healing for my body, Security etc. Same way I cannot teach on ONLY the flesh and thereby cheat myself of the vitalities in the spirit for e.g, Joy, righteousness, Love, Soundness of mind etc.

The Two must be taught. That's the balance. That's what Paul said.

The scripture Image123 quoted to you is apt and a brotherly rebuke in love, it might do you good to take heed of what Jesus said in that verse of scripture.

WinsomeX:


1 Corinthians 2:15

KJV:But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

ESV:The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

NIV:The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,

AMP:But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].

Sorry sir! This scripture does not make you judge any of us here who PROFESS CHRIST. More so you are in no position of authority to judge anyone properly here. And even at that your judgement is hypocritical with a vindictive attitude to destroy,condemn and prove your superiority over others who are christian like you.

And to make matters worse what you call judgement is not even judgement but gossips speaking evil of what others have done. Evil speaking is not judging but gross stupidity since you are also human like others and a strong tendency is there for you to fall into those same temptations they have fallen.

mbaemeka:


The spirit of man lives inside the flesh. So yes, we agree that the spirit (which is the real man) is more important than the flesh. But the flesh is what grants us access into this world without which we would not be here.

Now God told us he would take care of our fleshly needs even as he does our spiritual and you say I am wrong for telling people both? I can't possibly be. I am showing people the WHOLE COUNCEL of the word and not just one part. I cannot teach on ONLY the spirit, I would cheat myself of the vitalities in the flesh for e.g, Healing for my body, Security etc. Same way I cannot teach on ONLY the flesh and thereby cheat myself of the vitalities in the spirit for e.g, Joy, righteousness, Love, Soundness of mind etc.

The Two must be taught. That's the balance. That's what Paul said.

SELF and how to love and care for self isn't part of christianity. Any one who love God must hate self thus says Christ. God's power is revealed when our flesh is weak.
2 cor 12
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: [size=24pt]for my strength is made perfect in weakness[/size]. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Paraphrases are good but they often do serious injustice to the underlying message. Let's go Greek

Romans 5:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Where did the idea of 'reign as kings' come from?
The contrast here is between the results of sin and the results of God's goodness.
1. Sin causes DEATH to reign
2. God's righteousness cause us to reign in life

But whatever meaning you assign to 'reign in life' (and am sure it points to more than the present life just like sin consequences extend to eternity), it was not sufficient for Paul to deem Christians without any hope of resurrection as any better than the rest of humanity. This would not have been the case if believers NOW have the monopoly of reigning as kings, have wealth,health and longevity...

mbaemeka:
Vooks,


Romans 5:17 AMP

For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God's] overflowing grace (unmerited favor) and the free gift of righteousness [putting them into right standing with Himself] reign as kings in life through the one Man Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

The word used for 'receive' here is active in the Greek. It means to take a hold of; to grasp; to grab forcefully etc. It doesn't mean to be given and then you collect it.

Now Paul is saying those who TAKE A HOLD OF the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness WILL REIGN IN THIS LIFE AS KINGS by ONE, Jesus Christ.

How can you say Jesus offers us little in this life? How can you say he offers nothing? How can you say Paul didn't teach so? What does it mean to reign in life?

Now use this verse to interpret your last two posts.

Bidam:
The troll has risen with his usual prevarications again. A frivolous dishonest question to my question is NOT a response to start with.
This is the fourth time you will accuse me of your illogic you call logic. This is what you friend said when he quoted a scripture ignorantly and out of context and i challenged him. And i challenged him by asking him to quote where WOF said even though there was no resurrection, instead of replying me as usual, he came up with a silly question and as typical of a troll that you are, you rose to his defense with a more sillier statement that i cannot quantify.

Gombs above commented on the exchanges between Mbaemeka & vooks.  
That means he's reading but not directly involved in the discussions. 
I'm doing the same. When need be I'll give my comments. 

You have yourself taken my post and asked someone else to use it as a sound advise. 

This is an open forum. Any member is therefore at liberty to engage as he wishes. 

Your actions should be what should prove me right or wrong. But I'm sure you know the reality. 

The OVEREMPHASIS of temporal blessings over the need for the Christian to focus more on what he already has in Christ and what will make for greater eternal blessings is wrong.

trustman:


The [b]OVEREMPHASIS of temporal blessings over the need for the Christian to focus more on what he already has in Christ and what will make for greater eternal blessings is wrong. 
[/b]

And that is the reason for the Hagin's book, that Gombs opened the thread for. The extremes of poverty is what you and your cohorts are propagating which is unscriptural.

My brother,
Let me explain the thoughts behind my statements.

There is a group of people who believe and teach that Christians ought to have some serious Wealth, health and long life as this is the will of God in Christ for them. All it takes to tap into this bliss is FAITH, tons of faith. And they are as readily available as say forgiveness of sins

There has been several threads and posts questioning this position. vooks is against this teaching and among my various arguments against is, existence of Poverty, Disease and premature death in the early Christians. In other words I lack any Christian precedent for this belief or rather it is contradicted by the reality. But the proponents counter that we should not follow human examples but Christ.

The other argument I raised was in bringing up 1 Cor 15:16 where Paul raises a hypothetical question. Supposing there was no resurrection. What then would be the value of Christianity but all the benefits you acquire thereby in this life? Remember he is tackling the Corinthian Error of not believing resurrection. But the verse still demonstrates Pauline attitude towards the PRESENT life.

If there were no resurrection, a WOFer who subscribes to FAITH= Wealth,health and longevity bliss would still fare better in this world than ANY other man. In that case, Paul would not have suggested that absence of resurrection renders the average believer the most pitiable person. But he just did! Why? Because in the PRESENT life, a Christian really has nothing on the non-christian contrary to the prediction of FAITH= Wealth,health and longevity bliss Theory. This is why Resurrection offers hope because the PRESENT has little to nothing to offer the CHristian. Otherwise I'd be perfectly at ease with my health,wealth and longevity bliss

Bidam:
And i challenged him by asking him to quote where WOF said even though there was no resurrection, instead of replying me as usual, he came up with a silly question and as typical of a troll that you are, you rose to his defense with a more sillier statement that i cannot quantify.

Bidam:
And that is the reason for the Hagin's book, that Gombs opened the thread for. The extremes of poverty is what you and your cohorts are propagating which is unscriptural.

Who have said a christian must be poor?

If Philemon can be rich and yet be a christian, why will anyone say christianity equal poverty. All we are saying is you cannot measure people's relationship with God by riches or lack of it.

As far as scripture is concerned Philimon and Onesimus his slave are equal and fellow workers of the gospel.

Not so my brother
We are not advocating ascetism of Francis of Asisi.
We are just saying that poverty,sickness and premature death among CHristians are not due to ignorance or lack of faith but facts of life to be expected as long as we are under the fallen creation and in mortal bodies.

The benefits of Christianity can't possibly be enjoyed in this environment to their fullest. This is why the creation will pass away and the mortality put on immortality.

Attempting to live in a disease-free,poverty-free and long life bliss is delusional. Reality suggests otherwise and nowhere in the scriptures do we have this teaching. And besides, NOBODY can the proponents of this doctrine name who has effectively applied this doctrine. See none of that bliss is exclusive to CHristians so even if you could point to a believer who clocked 120 years, was fully healthy and immensely wealthy, I would point to hundreds of non-Christians who have the same minus the benefit of your faith

Bidam:
And that is the reason for the Hagin's book, that Gombs opened the thread for. The extremes of poverty is what you and your cohorts are propagating which is unscriptural.

You don't need to write an epistle to explain yourself o! I am very much aware of the discussions from page 1. I am just hard press for time to offer my contributions.

vooks:
My brother,
Let me explain the thoughts behind my statements.

There is a group of people who believe and teach that Christians ought to have some serious Wealth, health and long life as this is the will of God in Christ for them. All it takes to tap into this bliss is FAITH, tons of faith. And they are as readily available as say forgiveness of sins

There has been several threads and posts questioning this position. vooks is against this teaching and among my various arguments against is, existence of Poverty, Disease and premature death in the early Christians. In other words I lack any Christian precedent for this belief or rather it is contradicted by the reality. But the proponents counter that we should not follow human examples but Christ.

The other argument I raised was in bringing up 1 Cor 15:16 where Paul raises a hypothetical question. Supposing there was no resurrection. What then would be the value of Christianity but all the benefits you acquire thereby in this life? Remember he is tackling the Corinthian Error of not believing resurrection. But the verse still demonstrates Pauline attitude towards the PRESENT life.

If there were no resurrection, a WOFer who subscribes to FAITH= Wealth,health and longevity bliss would still fare better in this world than ANY other man. In that case, Paul would not have suggested that absence of resurrection renders the average believer the most pitiable person. But he just did! Why? Because in the PRESENT life, a Christian really has nothing on the non-christian contrary to the prediction of FAITH= Wealth,health and longevity bliss Theory. This is why Resurrection offers hope because the PRESENT has little to nothing to offer the CHristian. Otherwise I'd be perfectly at ease with my health,wealth and longevity bliss

To summarize your premise, you are of the opinion that the storms of life does not discriminate which i agree but you have to disbelieve a plethora of scriptures that calls on believers to agree with what God says concerning them in scriptures. All the promises of God are "Yes" in Christ, He will fulfil them (2 Cor. 1:20).

If you had been following and UNDERSTANDING you would not have made some statements you just did. SO I had to waste my precious time just for your sake my brother


It doesn't matter how many scriptures call on you to 'agree with God', Paul clearly states that the Christian has nothing on the non-Christian in this world. This does not mean that at any given point in time ALL Christians will fare worse than the worst non-believer, just that Christianity's value proposition is resurrection and not a health,wealth and long life bliss tapped into by tons of faith

Bidam:
You don't need to write an epistle to explain yourself o! I am very much aware of the discussions from page 1.

I am just hard press for time to offer my contributions. To summarize your premise, you are of the opinion that the storms of life does not discriminate which i agree but you have to disbelieve a plethora of scriptures that calls on believers to agree with what God says concerning them in scriptures. All the promises of God are "Yes" in Christ, He will fulfil them (2 Cor. 1:20).

vooks:
Not so my brother


Attempting to live in a disease-free,poverty-free and long life bliss is delusional. Reality suggests otherwise and nowhere in the scriptures do we have this teaching. And besides, NOBODY can the proponents of this doctrine name who has effectively applied this doctrine. See none of that bliss is exclusive to CHristians so even if you could point to a believer who clocked 120 years, was fully healthy and immensely wealthy, I would point to hundreds of non-Christians who have the same minus the benefit of your faith

Care to explain why prophet David disagree with you concerning health and longevity in “The righteous shall flourish like a palm tree, he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Those who are planted in the house of the Lord God shall flourish in the courts of our God. They shall still bear fruit in old age; They shall be fresh and flourishing.” Psalm 92:12-14 (NKJV)

vooks:
If you had been following and UNDERSTANDING you would not have made some statements you just did. SO I had to waste my precious time just for your sake my brother

I did and to my dismay you ignore loads of scripture and interpreted them with your opinions quoting ONLY the scripture about Paul's sufferings to best suit your erroneous theology.

It doesn't matter how many scriptures call on you to 'agree with God', Paul clearly states that the Christian has nothing on the non-Christian in this world. This does not mean that at any given point in time ALL Christians will fare worse than the worst non-believer, just that Christianity's value proposition is resurrection and not a health,wealth and long life bliss tapped into by tons of faith

I do not understand you. Are we to neglect scriptures and follow doctrines of men here?

Powerful verse my brother,
How old was King Hezekiah when he died? He is a good example of a righteous person because Holy Spirit says so

Refer to 2 Kings 18:1-3, 2 Chr 29:2

Bidam:
Care to explain why prophet David disagree with you concerning health and longevity in “The righteous shall flourish like a palm tree, he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Those who are planted in the house of the Lord God shall flourish in the courts of our God. They shall still bear fruit in old age; They shall be fresh and flourishing.” Psalm 92:12-14 (NKJV)

shdemidemi:


Who have said a christian must be poor?

Health is wealth, a sick christian is a poor christian.

If Philemon can be rich and yet be a christian, why will anyone say christianity equal poverty. All we are saying is you cannot measure people's relationship with God by riches or lack of it.

As far as scripture is concerned Philimon and Onesimus his slave are equal and fellow workers of the gospel.

What do you understand by prosperity?

It is well my brother.
Which scriptures have I ignored? This is a very serious allegation.

You may want to help mbaemeka in answering me on why Paul was INSPIRED to write that in absence of Resurrection Christians were the most pitiable

Bidam:
I did and to my dismay you ignore loads of scripture and interpreted them with your opinions quoting ONLY the scripture about Paul's sufferings to best suit your erroneous theology.

I do not understand you. Are we to neglect scriptures and follow doctrines of men here?

Bidam:
Health is wealth, a sick christian is a poor christian.
What do you understand by prosperity?

you couldn't have put it any better! Kudos

vooks:
Powerful verse my brother,
How old was King Hezekiah when he died? He is a good example of a righteous person because Holy Spirit says so

Refer to 2 Kings 18:1-3, 2 Chr 29:2

Do you believe what the Holy Spirit said through David or you want to use another story again to force your opinions?
You can as well ask me directly why Jesus died at 33. SMH!