vooks:
It is well my brother.
Which scriptures have I ignored? This is a very serious allegation.

Let's start with healing which you and your cohorts propagate with relish that's it's wrong for God to heal someone today. Do you agree that satan is the originator of sin and sicknesses?

You may want to help mbaemeka in answering me on why Paul was INSPIRED to write that in absence of Resurrection Christians were the most pitiable

Rephrase,mbaemeka never told you he does not believe in ressurection.

If Holy Spirit said that and stopped there, then we would be on the same page.
Hezekiah a righteous King checked out at 54 years of age. He had gone down with a disease 15 years before at the age of 39 and it nearly took him out

Look, there is a clear command not to kill yet a few pages later you are supposed to kill a witch. is it a contradiction?

Bidam:
Do you believe what the Holy Spirit said through David or you want to use another story again to force your opinions?
You can as well ask me directly why Jesus died at 33. SMH!

I don't know who said that it is wrong for God to heal somebody today. Did I say that?


Paul was correcting an error regarding resurrection BUT he touched on a Christian's welfare in this PRESENT life. That's why I picked the verse. Mbaemeka am sure he believes in resurrection just like I do and at no point was this an issue.

Please go and reread my threads on 1 COr1 15:16 to understand the thrust of my argument

Thanks

Bidam:
Let's start with healing which you and your cohorts propagate with relish that's it's wrong for God to heal someone today. Do you agree that satan is the originator of sin and sicknesses?
Rephrase,mbaemeka never told you he does not believe in ressurection.

vooks:
If Holy Spirit said that and stopped there,

The question is whether the scripture applies to a believer? yes or no? stop prevaricating issues here.

then we would be on the same page.

We are not on the same page here.

Hezekiah a righteous King checked out at 54 years of age. He had gone down with a disease 15 years before at the age of 39 and it nearly took him out

A righteous king by deeds abi? How much more the imputed righteousness we have by the blood of Christ built on a better covenant and promises. A christian lives on even after he is gone to sleep.

Look, there is a clear command not to kill yet a few pages later you are supposed to kill a witch. is it a contradiction?

Care to explain?

Was that Psalms relevant to Hezekiah?

Bidam:
The question is whether the scripture applies to a believer? yes or no? stop prevaricating issues here. We are not on the same page here.
A righteous king by deeds abi? How much more the imputed righteousness we have by the blood of Christ built on a better covenant and promises. A christian lives on even after he is gone to sleep.

Care to explain?

vooks:
I don't know who said that it is wrong for God to heal somebody today. Did I say that?

When you accuse folks who use God's authority to heal sicknesses and diseases you are automatically saying it is wrong for God to heal people.

Paul was correcting an error regarding resurrection BUT he touched on a Christian's welfare in this PRESENT life.

Paul talked about WE meaning the apostles. Are you among the 500 or more? Please always read in context abeg.

That's why I picked the verse.

Yet you never quoted Paul saying as poor making many rich in the same Corinthians abi?(2 cor 6:10)

Please go and reread my threads on 1 COr1 15:16 to understand the thrust of my argument

Go read starting from verse one to understand Paul in CONTEXT.

Thanks

You are welcome.

vooks:
Was that Psalms relevant to Hezekiah?

Maybe. Does the psalm i quoted apply to believers? You keep shifting and twisting, why na?

I will not respond to gossip nor defend those claimed that God is not healing. Fact is He does heal today but God healing and a disease-free utopia are poles apart

Paul meant the apostles when he used 'WE'? Hmmmmm.....
Let's test your claim

1 Corinthians 15:51 English Standard Version (ESV)
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Is Paul telling us that today some apostles are still alive awaiting Christ's return?

Bidam:
When you accuse folks who use God's authority to heal sicknesses and diseases you are automatically saying it is wrong for God to heal people.

Paul talked about WE meaning the apostles. Are you among the 500 or more? Please always read in context abeg. Yet you never quoted Paul saying as poor making many rich in the same Corinthians abi?(2 cor 6:10)

Go read starting from verse one to understand Paul in CONTEXT.
You are welcome.

maybe? Is this a yes/no/not sure?

Psalms 92 was written closer to Hezekiah than to vooks. IF from that Palms the righteous are supposed to live long and enjoy good health, how comes a righteous king fell sick to the point of death and died 16 years below what Moses would regard as prime age of 70?

Bidam:
Maybe. Does the psalm i quoted apply to believers? You keep shifting and twisting, why na?

shdemidemi:


SELF and how to love and care for self isn't part of christianity. Any one who love God must hate self thus says Christ. God's power is revealed when our flesh is weak.
2 cor 12
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: [size=24pt]for my strength is made perfect in weakness[/size]. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

When you are taking care of your spirit you are taking care of yourself. Ironic eh?

Thank God, that he told Paul his STRENGTH is MADE PERFECT in our WEAKNESS. He didn't say he leaves us till we come to join him in heaven.

vooks:
It is well my brother.
Which scriptures have I ignored? This is a very serious allegation.

You may want to help mbaemeka in answering me on why Paul was INSPIRED to write that in absence of Resurrection Christians were the most pitiable

Paul did not say absent of resurrection we are the most pitiable. He said IF OUR ONLY HOPE was in this life then we are of all men most pitiable. In other words, if all the persecutions, beatings, scourgings, beheadings etc that Paul faced was ONLY so that he could enjoy in this present world, then he was suffering for nothing seeing that other men could enjoy life WITHOUT suffering the same persecutions that Paul suffered.

But thank God that our hope is not only in this life. We have a hope in this life and in the one to come.

1 Timothy 4:8 AMP

For physical training is of some value (useful for a little), but godliness (spiritual training) is useful and of value in everything and in every way, for it holds promise for the present life and also for the life which is to come.

vooks:
If you had been following and UNDERSTANDING you would not have made some statements you just did. SO I had to waste my precious time just for your sake my brother


It doesn't matter how many scriptures call on you to 'agree with God', Paul clearly states that the Christian has nothing on the non-Christian in this world. This does not mean that at any given point in time ALL Christians will fare worse than the worst non-believer, just that Christianity's value proposition is resurrection and not a health,wealth and long life bliss tapped into by tons of faith

vooks:
Paraphrases are good but they often do serious injustice to the underlying message. Let's go Greek

Romans 5:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Where did the idea of 'reign as kings' come from?
The contrast here is between the results of sin and the results of God's goodness.
1. Sin causes DEATH to reign
2. God's righteousness cause us to reign in life

But whatever meaning you assign to 'reign in life' (and am sure it points to more than the present life just like sin consequences extend to eternity), it was not sufficient for Paul to deem Christians without any hope of resurrection as any better than the rest of humanity. This would not have been the case if believers NOW have the monopoly of reigning as kings, have wealth,health and longevity...

MUCH MORE they which receive abundance....the Righteousness aspect is MUCH MORE than what sin could have done. Now let us take your own fixation on the fallen world and how that challenges come as a result of it. Paul says because of sin, the world became fallen and death reigned. What did sin bring? Sin brought poverty, sickness, lack etc. Now Paul says as righteousness came by Jesus Christ, those who now take a hold of the abundance of grace and the gift of Christs righteousness will reign in life. Reign over what? Reign over sin and the consequences of sin which are for e.g, sickness, poverty etc.

vooks:
I will not respond to gossip nor defend those claimed that God is not healing. Fact is He does heal today but God healing and a disease-free utopia are poles apart

So it is now disease free utopia? hilarious.

Paul meant the apostles when he used 'WE'? Hmmmmm.....
Let's test your claim

1 Corinthians 15:51 English Standard Version (ESV)
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Is Paul telling us that today some apostles are still alive awaiting Christ's return?

Did Christ appear to the Corinthians when He rose from the dead? They had to rely on the testimony of Paul and others. The side you quoted was another matter entirely, he was referring to the Corinthians as well as himself now.


1 Corinthians 15:50-51 (NLT)

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that [size=16pt]our[/size] physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

mbaemeka:


When you are taking care of your spirit you are taking care of yourself. Ironic eh?

Thank God, that he told Paul his STRENGTH is MADE PERFECT in our WEAKNESS. He didn't say he leaves us till we come to join him in heaven.

No, when you take care of your spirit or nourish your spirit, you subsequently put your body under subjection and mortification. And this is the whole essence of God's truth. The word enable us deprive our flesh and its desires.

That is why I don't completely rule out fasting(and this is not necessarily food, it can be anything) cos its a time to punish my flesh to keep my spirit man active especially when studying the Word.

The spirit and the flesh are constant enemies, the bible say they war against each other for domination. Therefore, at a time when our body is comfortable, our spirit man suffers.

The delusion of a poverty/disease-free utopia accessed by faith several times that of Jesus is what am saving you from. Don't thank me, all glory belongs to God

You can't arbitrarily assign the reference behind the pronoun 'WE' to the apostles,Corinthians, all Christians to suit your prejudices. The apostles suffered and sacrificed the most for their faith but they were not the only ones who did this. Persecution,reproach,suffering and all that hit the body of Christ to a not so different signicant measure as well. Recall James' 'count it all joy'? What about that church of Smyrna in Revelation?

Bidam:
So it is now disease free utopia? hilarious.
Did Christ appear to the Corinthians when He rose from the dead? They had to rely on the testimony of Paul and others. The side you quoted was another matter entirely, he was referring to the Corinthians as well as himself now.


1 Corinthians 15:50-51 (NLT)

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that [size=16pt]our[/size] physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

Paul used the plural WE not I. He may have been referring to the apostles or to the entire church in general. Regardless of whatever he had in mind, the church went through a difficult period.

So may be I should aks. Is this verse universal or only relevant for the first century persecuted church?

mbaemeka:


Paul did not say absent of resurrection we are the most pitiable. He said IF OUR ONLY HOPE was in this life then we are of all men most pitiable. In other words, if all the persecutions, beatings, scourgings, beheadings etc that Paul faced was ONLY so that he could enjoy in this present world, then he was suffering for nothing seeing that other men could enjoy life WITHOUT suffering the same persecutions that Paul suffered.

But thank God that our hope is not only in this life. We have a hope in this life and in the one to come.

We have pursued this argument to its absurd conclusion where you infamously claimed that Christ would require your permission before taking you home with the obvious implication. You will once again be at pains in explaining the contradictions between pre-Fall life and life in CHrist. ANd once again you will resort the tired argument of faithlessness, little faith, ignorance bla de bla

There is no fixation with fallen world, it is a reality you can't ignore. A born again Christian does not live in Eden or even nothing close to Eden

mbaemeka:


MUCH MORE they which receive abundance....the Righteousness aspect is MUCH MORE than what sin could have done. Now let us take your own fixation on the fallen world and how that challenges come as a result of it. Paul says because of sin, the world became fallen and death reigned. What did sin bring? Sin brought poverty, sickness, lack etc. Now Paul says as righteousness came by Jesus Christ, those who now take a hold of the abundance of grace and the gift of Christs righteousness will reign in life. Reign over what? Reign over sin and the consequences of sin which are for e.g, sickness, poverty etc.

I believe this.
Jesus spoke of a hundredfold in this LIFE. But when you look at what the believer had given up,NOBODY receives 100 kids or wives. Literalism can end in tragi-comedy. Its why the disciples imagined Israel would be restored at Pentecost

mbaemeka:
1 Timothy 4:8 AMP

For physical training is of some value (useful for a little), but godliness (spiritual training) is useful and of value in everything and in every way, for it holds promise for the present life and also for the life which is to come.

Bidam:
The scripture Image123 quoted to you is apt and a brotherly rebuke in love, it might do you good to take heed of what Jesus said in that verse of scripture.

What did Image123 quote for me? Matthew 7:1. I responded with 1 Corinthians 1:15 to show him the context in which a Christian can judge righteously. He had no response until you came up with this one after almost 24 hours of thinking of a response.

Now let's do bible study, shall we. When Jesus said Judge not..., it was in the same context he said:

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

A careful reading of the whole text will reveal that Jesus was saying no one had a moral right to judge someone else of something when he is guilty of doing worse. Jesus was saying "If you judge another of a lesser matter, you will be judged for the worse thing you are doing". Your duty is to prove that I am guilty of something worse than the one I accused your friend. How then does this scripture not apply to me but to your friend who has passed the "fatwa" on me?

The speck in my eye is supposedly that I do not have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. The log in his eyes is that his own Pastor, Christian Oyakhilome, has been accused by his own wife of having "inappropriate relations" with women in the church. One would have thought that a super spiritual brother like ours here would have gone to the spirits talking to him and asked them what these "inappropriate relations" consist of. Is it just a lustful look; or a slap on a sister's buttocks; or all night romping - COZA style; or serial philandering with female pastors. Alas, our hypocritical brother did not consider such that important to seek spirits' voices on. Rather, he comes to a lowly brother and lies at the Holy Spirit, talking balderdash. That is the reason for the judgement, Bidam.

And I will advice that you just pack for one side; dis one no be your matter; if he has mouth to respond let him answer me and tell me what the spirits talking to him said about Chris Oyakhilome's inappropriate relations.

Indeed a spiritual man can judge: our duty is to judge and judge righteously.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Bidam:
Let's start with healing which you and your cohorts propagate with relish that's it's wrong for God to heal someone today. Do you agree that satan is the originator of sin and sicknesses?
Rephrase,mbaemeka never told you he does not believe in ressurection.

Sometimes your reasoning leaves much to be desired. 

You made a sweeping statement that: "The extremes of poverty is what you and your cohorts are propagating which is unscriptural." in response to my post on OVEREMPHASIS on temporal blessings. 

It was to this your comment Shdemidemi made the remark; 
"Who have said a christian must be poor?". 
And vooks also responded with his post: " We are not advocating ascetism of Francis of Asisi.
We are just saying that poverty,sickness and premature death among CHristians are not due to ignorance or lack of faith but facts of life to be expected as long as we are under the fallen creation and in mortal bodies."

Ordinarily this should make their position which I agree with clear to you.  But what do we find? You still want to come up with issues to fault others' position while you jump from one thing to the other ending up confusing yourself. 

To Shdemidemi's question above your response was:
"Health is wealth, a sick christian is a poor christian"
How does this relate to the question, particularly based on where the discussion is coming from?
What do you even understand by that statement yourself?

Then you come and talk about 'loads of scripture'. Do you know what 'loads' mean?

And somebody who doesn't know better is claiming that "you couldn't have put it better!"

You accuse others of shifting and twisting yet that is the very thing you're doing. 

Are you sure you really understand these issues?

vooks:


Psalms 92 was written closer to Hezekiah than to vooks.

“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.” (Exodus 20:12). Maybe this is much closer, since you have a father and mother.

vooks:
The delusion of a poverty/disease-free utopia accessed by faith several times that of Jesus is what am saving you from. Don't thank me, all glory belongs to God

It's best you save yourself from unbelief by taking what God says, don't bother about me. I take the word of God as it is when He said no inhabitant shall say i am sick.

You can't arbitrarily assign the reference behind the pronoun 'WE' to the apostles,Corinthians, all Christians to suit your prejudices. The apostles suffered and sacrificed the most for their faith but they were not the only ones who did this. Persecution,reproach,suffering and all that hit the body of Christ to a not so different signicant measure as well. Recall James' 'count it all joy'? What about that church of Smyrna in Revelation?

It is not my prejudices, i am actually teaching you to read in context which is better.

WinsomeX:


What did Image123 quote for me? Matthew 7:1. I responded with 1 Corinthians 1:15 to show him the context in which a Christian can judge righteously. He had no response until you came up with this one after almost 24 hours of thinking of a response.

Now let's do bible study, shall we. When Jesus said Judge not..., it was in the same context he said:

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

A careful reading of the whole text will reveal that Jesus was saying no one had a moral right to judge someone else of something when he is guilty of doing worse. Jesus was saying "If you judge another of a lesser matter, you will be judged for the worse thing you are doing". Your duty is to prove that I am guilty of something worse than the one I accused your friend. How then does this scripture not apply to me but to your friend who has passed the "fatwa" on me?

The speck in my eye is supposedly that I do not have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. The log in his eyes is that his own Pastor, Christian Oyakhilome, has been accused by his own wife of having "inappropriate relations" with women in the church. One would have thought that a super spiritual brother like ours here would have gone to the spirits talking to him and asked them what these "inappropriate relations" consist of. Is it just a lustful look; or a slap on a sister's buttocks; or all night romping - COZA style; or serial philandering with female pastors. Alas, our hypocritical brother did not consider such that important to seek spirits' voices on. Rather, he comes to a lowly brother and lies at the Holy Spirit, talking balderdash. That is the reason for the judgement, Bidam.

And I will advice that you just pack for one side; dis one no be your matter; if he has mouth to respond let him answer me and tell me what the spirits talking to him said about Chris Oyakhilome's inappropriate relations.

Indeed a spiritual man can judge: our duty is to judge and judge righteously.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

All this write up is laden and laced with pride. Good job. KEEP IT UP!

trustman:


Sometimes your reasoning leaves much to be desired. 

You made a sweeping statement that: "The extremes of poverty is what you and your cohorts are propagating which is unscriptural." in response to my post on OVEREMPHASIS on temporal blessings. 

It was to this your comment Shdemidemi made the remark; 
"Who have said a christian must be poor?". 
And vooks also responded with his post: " We are not advocating ascetism of Francis of Asisi.
We are just saying that poverty,sickness and premature death among CHristians are not due to ignorance or lack of faith but facts of life to be expected as long as we are under the fallen creation and in mortal bodies."

Ordinarily this should make their position which I agree with clear to you.  But what do we find? You still want to come up with issues to fault others' position while you jump from one thing to the other ending up confusing yourself. 

To Shdemidemi's question above your response was:
"Health is wealth, a sick christian is a poor christian"
How does this relate to the question, particularly based on where the discussion is coming from?
What do you even understand by that statement yourself?

Then you come and talk about 'loads of scripture'. Do you know what 'loads' mean?

And somebody who doesn't know better is claiming that "you couldn't have put it better!"

You accuse others of shifting and twisting yet that is the very thing you're doing. 

Are you sure you really understand these issues?

And what is this one saying Why do you keep setting up a straw man to knock them down yourself? It is your friends that are fooled by your technique not me. If you do not have a reasonable thing to contribute to this discuss will you shut up for once?

Bidam:
It's best you save yourself from unbelief by taking what God says, don't bother about me. [size=18pt]I take the word of God as it is when He said no inhabitant shall say i am sick.[/size]
It is not my prejudices, i am actually teaching you to read in context which is better.

James 5: 14 - "Is anyone among you sick?

Do you believe this scripture?

trustman:


James 5: 14 - "Is anyone among you sick?

Do you believe this scripture?

Good now you are contributing instead of your logical fallacy. I agree with James 5:14 which is a question, but does it contradict Isaiah 33:24?

shdemidemi:


No, when you take care of your spirit or nourish your spirit, you subsequently put your body under subjection and mortification. And this is the whole essence of God's truth. The word enable us deprive our flesh its desires.

That is why I don't completely rule out fasting(and this is not necessarily food, it can be anything) cos its a time to punish my flesh to keep my spirit man active especially when studying the Word.

The spirit and the flesh are constant enemies, the bible say they war against each other for domination. Therefore, at a time when our body is comfortable, our spirit man suffers.

Huh?

Bidam:
Good now you are contributing instead of your logical fallacy. I agree with James 5:14 which is a question, but does it contradict Isaiah 33:24?

Besides, James quizzed "is there any sick among you?" He ddidn't say "since there are many sick among you" or "there are definitely sick people among you". Even he expected it to be an anomaly.

vooks:
We have pursued this argument to its absurd conclusion where you infamously claimed that Christ would require your permission before taking you home with the obvious implication. You will once again be at pains in explaining the contradictions between pre-Fall life and life in CHrist. ANd once again you will resort the tired argument of faithlessness, little faith, ignorance bla de bla

There is no fixation with fallen world, it is a reality you can't ignore. A born again Christian does not live in Eden or even nothing close to Eden

As expected, adhominems soon to follow.

I didn't say this world is not fallen. I very much agree that it is. I explained the consequences of the fallen world and chief of which is SIN that reproduced- murder, wickedness, poverty, sicknesses, failures etc. Now Jesus came to defeat SIN as a whole and he told us that SIN shall not have dominion over us (who believe in him). Now if I tell people that they can live above sin and it's consequences in this world even while we wait for the new world and you say I am amiss? Even when I am quoting scriptures? Howbeit?

Bidam:
Good now you are contributing instead of your logical fallacy. I agree with James 5:14 which is a question, but does it contradict Isaiah 33:24?

No, because the two apply to 2 different scenarios.

trustman:


No, because the two apply to 2 different scenarios.

How? Care to explain why Isaiah 33:24 is not meant for the body of Christ?