Kanoro:

Most Sub-Saharan Africans acquired their knowledge of gunpowder from Europeans. It was the North Africans who gained it from Arabs

Sub Saharan Africa had relations with Arabs far before Europeans.
And Fon Dahomey/Oyo wars which were before we had contact with Europeans

Kanoro:

Since when was China isolated?? You obviously haven't heard of the silk road.

I took a class on Ancient history and had been quizzed on this, so I think I might have some idea of what their situation was.
https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080416194206AAwSXkd
This is common knowledge. They referred to themselves as the "middle kingdom" for a reason.

I would quote and link it but it's not letting me do it on phone for some reason. Anyway it says that the silk road shaped civilizations like China, Arabia, Persia, and India. The exchange of ideas bolstered their development. Notice all of the civililizations on the silk road were the most advanced? Europe was only able to catch up to them in the last few hundred years because of their advanced seagoing ships. Search silk road on Wikipedia.

The silk road came very late in their history which btw stretches back to around the 17th century, long after their ingenuity took route.

Kanoro:
I've heard of this before.This was not a formal script taught in schools or made into books though was it? I'm pretty sure it was restricted to secret societies and mostly used on pottery.

Sort of. Wikipedia says it was "once taught to children in schools" but does not elaborate on that. It was also used to record events such as court cases.

The record is of an Ikpe or judgement case. (a) The court was held under a tree as is the custom, (b) the parties in the case, (c) the chief who judged it, (d) his staff (these are enclosed in a circle), (e) is a man whispering into the ear of another just outside the circle of those concerned, (f) denotes all the members of the party who won the case. Two of them (g) are embracing, (h) is a man who holds a cloth between his finger and thumbs as a sign of contempt. He does not care for the words spoken. The lines round and twisting mean that the case was a difficult one which the people of the town could not judge for themselves. So they sent to the surrounding towns to call the wise men from them and the case was tried by them (j) and decided; (k) denotes that the case was one of adultery or No. 20.

Yes this has been proven by archaeologists who have done work in the regions of West Africa.

I find this is quite incredible:

newsrescue.com/when-we-ruled-africas-reign/#ixzz3A0zdRCSr

"82. Evidence discovered in 1978 showed that East Africans were making steel for more than 1,500 years: “Assistant Professorof Anthropology Peter Schmidt and Professor of Engineering Donald H. Avery have found as long as 2,000 years ago Africans living on the western shores of Lake Victoria had produced carbon steel in preheated forced draft furnaces, a method that was technologically more sophisticated than any developed in Europe until the mid-nineteenth century.”"

Yes we did.

Ancient African Metallurgy : from Nok Culture to …:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEeu1gJED-4

Kanoro:


Most Sub-Saharan Africans acquired their knowledge of gunpowder from Europeans. It was the North Africans who gained it from Arabs

Technically, it doesn't matter from who we acquire any knowledge beside to satisfy our historical curiosity.

Europeans didn't invent writing or gunpowder but made "good" (in a technical sense) use of those.

They have been able to integrate those knowledge into their own cultures (which are various in Europe) and even moving those knowledge forward. This capacity of integrating foreign knowledge into their culture, always in continuity with the past, is a mark of any progressive society.

Anything around you in our society isn't invented by yourself. It's always about how you integrate those knowledge into our own culture which is important. I don't think I'm mistaken when I say Scandinavian people didn't invent electricity, gun powder, democracy and even writing. Same for Japanese or South Koreans. But now Scandinavian people are on the foreground of R& D, technological development and quality of life. It must be noted those people integrated those knowledge into their own culture. For example, Scandinavian, Japanese, South Korans, a well as most people in the world, integrated those knowledge into their own culture and languages (they go to school into their own languages) and that way made it their own. More effort should be made in African country to use our own languages as language of instructions which involve translating school books into local languages for example. This is what I call the democratization of knowledge (it's also supported by Unesco and local research see http://www.casas.co.za/ for example). It's simple as it just needs translators to translate books and new language policy to teach our children into our own languages (learning English as second language of course).

Europeans didn't invent writing or gunpowder but made "good", in a technical sense, use of those by integrating them into their own cultures, always in continuity with the past. Same thing for Japanese, Chinese, Americans, South Koreans, Scandinavians and the various Europeans nations in general.

AmunRaOlodumare:

Europeans didn't invent writing or gunpowder but made "good", in a technical sense, use of those by integrating them into their own cultures, always in continuity with the past. Same thing for Japanese, Chinese, Americans, South Koreans, Scandinavians and the various Europeans nations in general.

Africans couldn't afford that ''continuity with the past'', and did not enjoy that social/geographic stability that would allow them integrate knowledge into future developments. From at least 600 AD up till as recently as the 19th century, African communities have been in flux, in constant movement and migration, fleeing everything from desertification and foreign invaders, to local rival settlers seeking water and arable soil. Check their oral histories... what characterises EVERY ONE OF THEM is stories of migration. It was this lack of stability what led to the loss of writing and sturdy architectural construction etc... What point of all that when you could be forced to flee the next week?

Rossikk:


Africans couldn't afford that ''continuity with the past'', and did not enjoy that social/geographic stability that would allow them integrate knowledge into future developments. From at least 600 AD up till as recently as the 19th century, African communities have been in flux, in constant movement and migration, fleeing everything from desertification and foreign invaders, to local rival settlers seeking water and arable soil. Check their oral histories... what characterises EVERY ONE OF THEM is stories of migration. It was this lack of stability what led to the loss of writing and sturdy architectural construction etc... What point of all that when you could be forced to flee the next week?

It's true that the history of Africa is a history of migrations, but those migrations were usually done in continuity with the past too. This is discussed in the book "The African Frontier - The Reproduction of Traditional African Societies" by Kopytoff. Usually the traditions of new migrants were mixed with the traditions of previous people with a preponderance on the tradition of new migrants. For example, the deity of the river of the previous people (or what came to be known as the deity of the river/water) was incorporated into the important divinities of the new migrants. The main languages becoming the language of the new migrants. The spread of iron is an example of new knowledge fully integrated into local culture in continuity with the past.

Chinaimporter:
If by west african,u mean indigineous ones like ijaw..non but if you mean migrant ones like the igbos the yes.cast iron was discovered by the igbos around 2500bc .The true origin of the igbos lies in the sumerian city of ur near the site on ancient babylonia.the igbos establist the ubaid dynasty headed by the great igbo king meshanepada who built a ziggurat in honor of the great god nnanna(also called nanna in sumerian and sin in akkadian) who asked the igbos to migrate to other part of the world to spread civilization in the then young world. Igbos then invented the first alphabet called the cuneiform and left babylon under an igbo family called the Akadians who where the ancestors of modern arabs,Ethiopians and jews through a former sheperd of igbo orign called abraham.
The igbos then migrated to perisia which they civilized and gave her first royal dynasty and their god called Ahura mazda(i hi ura mu aza gi meaning he who answers me in my sleep)
From there they went to ancient egypt where they civilized and gave her first pyramids and also sent a delegation th civilized the barbarians in the north called the greeks.it should be noted that some of the greatest greek men where igbos eg aristotle(erie asi tolu uto), pythagoras(bia ta ara) achilles( aku ili) etc.
The igbos also enslaved the isrealites in both babylonia and Egypt and after they got tired of the city life they migrated to eastern nigeria while civilizing the Nubians, yorubas,fulanis etc on there way.it should be noted that oduduwa and bayegida were all igbos in oduduwa case yoruba legend holds that he is a fair man from the east. The igos are not desended from jews or egyptians rather thses people are all desended from the igbos and and unbiased historical evaluation would prove that

Inferiority complex I might add.
Ask yourself why can't the Igbo's simply have their origin where they are currently living. Start with that premise and expand your research.

kmariko:

Ask yourself why can't the Igbo's simply have their origin where they are currently living. Start with that premise and expand your research.

Yes trying to connect your people to other's people great civilization is a bit lame. But the situation is also more complex than this too. The story of Africa is truly the story of migrations (within Africa of course).

I've discussed the origin of Igbo people in this thread (mainly using linguistic but also confirmed by genetic and archaeological knowledge):

Early History Of The Niger-congo Speakers (Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Mande, Etc):
https://www.nairaland.com/1573374/early-history-niger-congo-speakers-igbo

Yes, West African iron production predates the AD era. This was before any known Arab or European contact.

It seems that before about 3000 years ago the part of the Middle Niger in which Jenné-jeno is situated was so often covered by river floodwater that it was not regularly occupied, although there must have been hunters, plant-food gatherers, and fishermen in the vicinity. Farmers and herdsmen might also have been nearby because there is evidence of them at Jenné-jeno from about 2500 years ago. By the time its inhabitants were already growing rice and keeping cattle, as well as raising other crops, fishing and collecting wild plant food. In addition, they were smelting iron from iron ore brought from outside the area. This iron industry is among the earliest known in sub-Saharan Africa, antedated only by that of the Nok culture. They build houses of sticks and mud and made fine pottery. By about 2000 years ago their village had grown into a small town, and by about 1000 years ago it had become a city of perhaps as many as 13,000 people, protected by a city wall 2 kilometers long. The area made an important contribution to the world economy during the first half of the second millennium AD, handling much of the gold that reached Europe at that time. Jenné-jeno has not only thrown new light on the indigenous origins of urbanism in the West Africa savanna, it has also demonstrated the significance of the Middle Niger in the history of Africa as a whole. (Conna 2004)

http://wysinger.homestead.com/Ancient-African-City-Jenne-jeno.html

Mambofiend:
Yes, West African iron production predates the AD era. This was before any known Arab or European contact.




http://wysinger.homestead.com/Ancient-African-City-Jenne-jeno.html

I never asked if they developed iron technology. My question is if they had "Cast iron" I'm very well aware that Africans were manufacturing iron tools in bloomeries but what about casts?

Kanoro:

Why do you think they resorted to melee infantry despite these capabilities? Also do you think that they adopted cast iron from Europeans or do you think it was an indigenous development? They certainly had an advanced iron industry and were certainly masters at casting other metals like copper, brass, and bronze. Iron requires a significantly higher melting point to cast though and I've seen or heard no evidence of it developing anywhere outside of Eurasia. But of course nobody ever wants to teach of the achievements of Africa.

This is an old thread, but I see that you're still around. If you want to know more about the use of infantry and methods of warfare in precolonial Africa, a useful book that I've mentioned on this forum before is John K. Thornton's Warfare in Atlantic Africa. It only deals with parts of Africa (not the whole continent) over a period of a few centuries, but is well-researched and quite informative about those societies and time periods that it does cover.

As for cast iron, this is what I came across from a quick search:

"Smelting iron by the method employed in precolonial Africa is not an easy process. Iron melts at the very high temperature of 1540°C but the resulting product is cast iron, that is too brittle to be worked by a blacksmith. In the Western world cast iron only became important a little over 500 years ago, when Europeans developed blast furnaces, although the Chinese had made and used it 2000 years earlier. In Africa and in the West it was wrought iron that was wanted, because it could be hammered and bent and drawn into many shapes. This was produced in a bloomery furnace, at temperatures of 1150 to 1200°C." - Graham Connah, Forgotten Africa: An Introduction to Its Archaeology, pp. 51

https://books.google.com/books?id=E78JtHvhaH0C&pg=PA51

If you read down to pages 52 and 53 the author describes iron smelting using bloomeries and mentions the possible production of cast iron and steel in Tanzania and also discusses the issue of whether iron working was indigenous or introduced from outside of Africa.

In the book The Archaeology of Africa: Food, Metals and Towns, there is also a mention of cast iron on p. 451:

"The third type of product is cast iron, a hard and brittle mass that is high in carbon (>4% C) and low in siliceous impurities and virtually unworkable by the smith with a traditional technology. The temperature required to produce cast iron ranges from 1400 to 1500°C and as a result usually yielded a vitreous slag run-off. As the product of a failed smelt, cast iron was usually discarded by the smelter. Recent work by David (David, Heimann, Killick & Wayman 1989), however, has demonstrated that traditional smelting may have intentionally produced cast iron, along with both wrought iron and steel, in a given smelting operation. More importantly, he shows that the smelter knew how to decarburize the iron appropriately to prepare the samples for smithing (David, Heimann, Killick & Wayman 1989, p. 198)."

https://books.google.com/books?id=TmUwjhQX-rcC&pg=PA451

The article by David, Heimann, Killick & Wayman that this book cites is "Between bloomery and blast furnace: Mafa iron-smelting technology in North Cameroon" (1989). I haven't read that article, but I have read the abstract of that article and it seems that at least in North Cameroon cast iron has been shown to have been produced by the Mafa people.

There might be more information about cast iron in precolonial Africa than just the stuff from Tanzania and North Cameroon, but this is just what I found most easily. It seems possible to me that the production of cast iron may not have been widespread because it may have been seen as useless to most groups and they may not have needed it for their purposes.

Thank you very much. Very useful information! I'd be curious to know if they utilized cast iron technology for firearms and to what extent. I'd also be curious to know why they didn't produce their own weapons in mass so that they didn't rely on imports.

Kanoro:
Sorry if this is the wrong forum category but I couldn't find one more appropriate. Europeans and Asians have been developing cast iron for centuries. Africans definitely had well developed iron technology but when you look at history, European technology was slow to be adopted by Africans. For example, though many African Kingdoms made wide usage of firearms, they still relied HEAVILY on imports to keep their arsenals full. The Japanese on the other hand adopted firearms quickly from Europeans and went on to produce their own local versions as well as improve upon European designs. Did Africans ever produce European weapons locally? If not, why? Did they lack certain technological requirements such as cast iron?

I know some other people will have more information on this subject and this may not be an answer to your question, but Europeans were not the first people to develop guns. I am pretty sure the Chinese were the first to develop gun powder and guns. I think that Arabs were the first to use them in warfare. I think that the Arabs introduced them to the Europeans. I don't know about the casting of iron, but it stands to reason that the Arabs taught the Europeans, because the Arabs taught the Europeans everything including the need to take a bath.

Kanoro:
Thank you very much. Very useful information! I'd be curious to know if they utilized cast iron technology for firearms and to what extent. I'd also be curious to know why they didn't produce their own weapons in mass so that they didn't rely on imports.

I have never read anything about any of the African groups that made guns using cast iron to do so, though I would be happy to find an example to the contrary. The Ashanti manufactured some of their own guns, but their method did not use cast iron and they could buy better quality guns from Europeans so they kept relying on imports. Benin started manufacturing guns as well, but I have not read anything about Benin utilizing cast iron. I am also unsure as to whether the guns Benin made were the majority of the guns the kingdom had or whether more guns were imported than manufactured. I will look into that eventually and see if I can find an answer.

I also read that Samory Touré's kingdom attempted to manufacture their own guns as well, but once again I've never read anything about cast iron technology in connection with that, and I know that the guns his state used were mostly imports of European origin.

PhysicsQED:


I have never read anything about any of the African groups that made guns using cast iron to do so, though I would be happy to find an example to the contrary. The Ashanti manufactured some of their own guns, but their method did not use cast iron and they could buy better quality guns from Europeans so they kept relying on imports. Benin started manufacturing guns as well, but I have not read anything about Benin utilizing cast iron. I am also unsure as to whether the guns Benin made were the majority of the guns the kingdom had or whether more guns were imported than manufactured. I will look into that eventually and see if I can find an answer.

I also read that Samory Touré's kingdom attempted to manufacture their own guns as well, but once again I've never read anything about cast iron technology in connection with that, and I know that the guns his state used were mostly imports of European origin.

Very interesting. Regardless if they used cast iron or not I'm just trying to figure out what methods Africans used and why they relied so heavily on European imports. The Japanese had more guns than any country in the world within decades of being introduced to European weapons.

AkanIgbo:


I know some other people will have more information on this subject and this may not be an answer to your question, but Europeans were not the first people to develop guns. I am pretty sure the Chinese were the first to develop gun powder and guns. I think that Arabs were the first to use them in warfare. I think that the Arabs introduced them to the Europeans. I don't know about the casting of iron, but it stands to reason that the Arabs taught the Europeans, because the Arabs taught the Europeans everything including the need to take a bath.

I was already aware of everything you just said. However Europeans had the most advanced guns throughout history and were the first to equip professional armies with them for conquest of far away lands. They spread gunpowder technology to more peolple around the world than anyone else.

PhysicsQED:

The Archaeology of Africa: Food, Metals and Towns

I think it might've been this one I had read.

Kanoro:
Thank you very much. Very useful information! I'd be curious to know if they utilized cast iron technology for firearms and to what extent. I'd also be curious to know why they didn't produce their own weapons in mass so that they didn't rely on imports.

PhysicsQED:

I have never read anything about any of the African groups that made guns using cast iron to do so, though I would be happy to find an example to the contrary. The Ashanti manufactured some of their own guns, but their method did not use cast iron and they could buy better quality guns from Europeans so they kept relying on imports. Benin started manufacturing guns as well, but I have not read anything about Benin utilizing cast iron. I am also unsure as to whether the guns Benin made were the majority of the guns the kingdom had or whether more guns were imported than manufactured. I will look into that eventually and see if I can find an answer.

I also read that Samory Touré's kingdom attempted to manufacture their own guns as well, but once again I've never read anything about cast iron technology in connection with that, and I know that the guns his state used were mostly imports of European origin.

Sources cited by Wikipedia and Unesco state that Iron working dates back up to 4000(?) years near the Niger river, making the origins of African working contemporary with other early iron working areas of the world. Wikipedia notes however, that the methods used to carbon date the substances have been criticized by a small group of colleagues. So it's a bit of a grey area.
I do for the time being think that the finds should be taken into consideration, especially in the event of more reliable evidence popping up to support it.

Kanoro:


Most Sub-Saharan Africans acquired their knowledge of gunpowder from Europeans. It was the North Africans who gained it from Arabs

Kanem-Bornu, a central African empire that at its height actually stretched into the Libyan fezzan, is known for importing slaves from Europe and elsewhere who had knowledge of gunpowder and employed them as gun infantry in their armies. And they practised this prior to the age of exploration. What puzzles me is whether Bornu learned gunpowder from these slaves and adopted the technology for themselves? If so, why didn't the technology spread to other regions?

Chinaimporter:
If by west african,u mean indigineous ones like ijaw..non but if you mean migrant ones like the igbos the yes.cast iron was discovered by the igbos around 2500bc .The true origin of the igbos lies in the sumerian city of ur near the site on ancient babylonia.the igbos establist the ubaid dynasty headed by the great igbo king meshanepada who built a ziggurat in honor of the great god nnanna(also called nanna in sumerian and sin in akkadian) who asked the igbos to migrate to other part of the world to spread civilization in the then young world. Igbos then invented the first alphabet called the cuneiform and left babylon under an igbo family called the Akadians who where the ancestors of modern arabs,Ethiopians and jews through a former sheperd of igbo orign called abraham.
The igbos then migrated to perisia which they civilized and gave her first royal dynasty and their god called Ahura mazda(i hi ura mu aza gi meaning he who answers me in my sleep)
From there they went to ancient egypt where they civilized and gave her first pyramids and also sent a delegation th civilized the barbarians in the north called the greeks.it should be noted that some of the greatest greek men where igbos eg aristotle(erie asi tolu uto), pythagoras(bia ta ara) achilles( aku ili) etc.
The igbos also enslaved the isrealites in both babylonia and Egypt and after they got tired of the city life they migrated to eastern nigeria while civilizing the Nubians, yorubas,fulanis etc on there way.it should be noted that oduduwa and bayegida were all igbos in oduduwa case yoruba legend holds that he is a fair man from the east. The igos are not desended from jews or egyptians rather thses people are all desended from the igbos and and unbiased historical evaluation would prove that

This is a very powerful antidepressant!