I am not implying or stating as a fact that West Africans DID discover the New World, BUT what I am doing is stating the possibility of them reaching the New World. Also what I am saying has NOTHING to do with claiming the Olmecs as African or any other indigenous American groups, its mostly radical Afrocentrics like Clyde Winters who is doing that, again I am only stating the possibility of West Africans reaching the New World/Americas. I am also not saying West Africans discovered the New World first, the Vikings and possibly the Chinese did that first. But did they reach the New World before Christopher Columbus? Possibly...That's all we can really say.

Anyways...It is a FACT that Abubakari II of the Mali empire wanted to explore the Atlantic and discover new lands, that is a FACT.
According to a Malian scholar, Gaoussou Diawara in his book, 'The Saga of Abubakari II...he left with 2000 boats', the emperor gave up all power and gold to pursue knowledge and discovery.

Abubakari's ambition was to explore whether the Atlantic Ocean - like the great River Niger that swept through Mali - had another 'bank'.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm

__________________________________________________________________________
*The Garifuna.. Okay, so apparently the conventional view is that the Garifuna population (referred to by the British as the Black Caribs, to distinguish them from "Yellow Caribs) derives from a shipwrecked slave ship coming from Nigeria. Yet, I have a hard time making sense of when this would have occurred.

Père Raymond Breton first did research on the Garifuna population in the 1630s, recording legends on their own origin. I've desperately been trying to find the source of this particular encounter for some time but instead I've been forced to deal with this second-hand source, apparently from wikipedia, which is all over the net:
QUOTE
"One of the earliest accounts of the ancestors of the Garinagu comes from the Frenchman Père Raymond Breton. Living on the island of Saint Vincent in the 1630s, he recorded the Black Caribs' story of their migration from South America's Orinoco region. According to legend, these Arawak speaking people of the Orinoco came to St. Vincent long be[b]fore the arrival of Europeans to the New World[/b]. They lived for a long time in peace and tranquility until one day the island was attacked by a group of Carib men from the mainland. The Carib men slaughtered all the Arawak men and took the women as slave-wives. At some point, two West African slave carrying ships on their way to the Americas arrived on the island and were successfully integrated into the population, adding an African element to the culture."


^The source is unusual in that you can't discern what's being attributed to the Garifuna and what's being attributed to popular view. The conventional explanation for their existence in the Americas by scholars is indeed, that they are the result of ship-wrecked African slaves coming from Nigeria. Thus, obviously we can eliminate this part of the passage as being a part of Garifuna oral history.

Let's eliminate the redundancies also as in we know they speak Arawak and we understand from the previous sentence that they claim to have come from the Orinoco region before reaching St. Vincient---Harold Lawrence notes their continued presence in the Orinoco region and was somewhat baffled by it, likely because he didn't account for this early oral tradition. We should concentrate on what these Caribs told Breton in the 1630s, that "they came to St. Vincent long before the arrival of Europeans". Mind you, these are black Caribs talking, not yellow Caribs (In addition, if they were slaves, one wonders how they became acculturated so quickly, even speaking fluent Arawak). Now, time to turn the conventional view on its head. Please remember the date 1935 (when Breton published much of his work):

This is what the theory states, devoid of any consideration of Raymond Breton.

QUOTE:
"According to Shephard, around 1675, a slave ship was wrecked on the coast of what is known today as Bequia. The survivors of this shipwreck were then accepted by the indigenous peoples who then inhabited the island. Through inter-marriage between the two peoples, a new people appeared. They were called the 'Black Caribs' as distinct from the 'Yellow Caribs,' the original inhabitants….”

So, to explain the presence of Blacks on St. Vincent, they cite events that took place at least 40 years after they were supposedly first documented by Europeans. Crazy, right? To top this all off, the Garifuna seem to be consistent in their claims as today many indeed claim descent from medieval African explorers (see "The Garifuna Journey"--documentary) who landed in the new world and St. Vincent "long before Europeans". Lawrence also cites evidence of Muslim retentions within Garifuna culture and Van sertima cites Alphonse de Quatrefages, who in turn cites reports as early presence of Blacks at St. Vincent but this isn't part of my analysis as it's clearly explained in Van Sertima's Early America.

One misconception people have about Africans is that Africans never used ships and sailed from Africa whether its been for trade or discover. That could be put to rest, because East Africans such as the Swahili have used ships and sailing was one of their main practices(See my thread East African sailors/traders in Asia)
https://www.nairaland.com/1290580/east-african-sailors-traders-asia

Swahili people were able to sail to Arabia, India, Malaysia and even as far as China. Sailing was important among Muslim Africans and the Mali Empire was an Muslim empire. So the misconception about Africans not being able to sail is a false one, Africans such as the Swahili have soon to be master sailors.

Some Swahili ships...



Many West African kingdoms utilized the rivers, especially the Niger to establish economic and military power. West Africans mastered riverine travel very early and eventually developed seagoing ships that they used not only around the coastline but even to settle islands off the coast. The Bijagós Archipelago near the coast of Guinea-Bissau was settled very early long before European contact. All of this contradicts the widespread misconception that Africans never ventured into the seas. It also makes sense of the data you and others provided about Europeans contending with native West African naval fleets off the coasts.

Back to Abubakari II...Again it is has been acknowledged by many that Abubakari II and Mansa Musa had conducted expeditions, with America being one of places they may have discovered. Now, the timeline of Abubakari II/Mansa Musa (1307-1332) reign pre-dates Columbus discovery, but it is up to you to do the math and come to the logical conclusion. Moreover, I usually advice people to read what was said very carefully before jumping to any conclusion. This certainly applies to my words. As for any sources, I can only give you what I am able to find on the internet.

Excerpt 1:

“C: ARABIC( ISLAMIC )INSCRIPTIONS:


1. Anthropologists have proven that the Mandinkos under Mansa Musa's instructions explored many parts of North America via the Mississippi and other rivers systems. At Four Corners, Arizona, writings show that they even brought elephants from Africa to the area.(7)

2. Columbus admitted in his papers that on Monday, October 21,1492 CE while his ship was sailing near Gibara on the north-east coast of Cuba, he saw a mosque on top of a beautiful mountain. The ruins of mosques and minarets with inscriptions of Quranic verses have been discovered in Cuba,Mexico,Texas and Nevada. (

3. During his second voyage, Columbus was told by the indians of ESPANOLA (Haiti), t[b]hat black people had been to the island before his arrival. For proof, they presented Columbus with the spears of these African muslims. These weapons were tipped with a yellow metal that the indians called GUANIN, a word of West African derivation meaning 'gold alloy'.[/b] Oddly enough, it is related to the Arabic word 'GHINAA' which means 'WEALTH'. Columbus brought some GUANINES back to Spain and had them tested. He learned that the metal was 18 parts gold (56.25%), 6 parts silver (18.75%) and 8 parts copper (25%), the same ratio as the metal produced in African metalshops of Guinea. (14)”
Source:
http://www.jannah.org/articles/precolumbus.html

Excerpt 2:
A relative, Abu Bakar the II, decided to find a way by sea to go to Mecca. Abu Bakar II is said to be Mansa Musa’s uncle. In 1324 while visiting Cairo, Mansa Musa reported how he became the King of Mali. He explained that he became King of Mali, his predecessor, Abu Bakar II (who belonged to the senior branch of the ruling family), decided to sail in order to discover what lies behind the Ocean, he had never come back .What Mansa Musa (who belongs to the Junior branch of the ruling family) said, then, was recorded by Ibn Amir Adjib, Governor of Cairo and Karafa. Abu Bakar and his maritime expedition l[b]eft the shores of Senegal and sailed in the Atlantic Ocean.[/b] They encountered so much difficulties and challenges that they came back to Senegal. Abu Bakar reorganized his expedition, took enough provisions and a huge army with him. This expedition has never been seen again. Today, there is a strong historical evidence pointing to the possibility that this Malian prince was the first one to discover America. I[b]n Brazil for instance, there is a presence of the mandinka language, traditions and customs.[/b]
Source:
History of Timbuktu, from Timbuktu Foundation.org

Excerpt 3:

Some Atlantic crossings by Africans departed Muslim Spain between 929–961 and others, probably Mandinkas (Mandingos), sailed from the Guinea coast in the 14 century, during the time of Mansa Musa. These explorations have been reported in Muhammedan writings. See Ivan Van Sertima’s [i]They Came before Columbus (1976) and Alexander von Wuthenau’s Unexpected Faces in Ancient Africa, 1500 BC–AD 1500 (1975). For further information consult Carter G. Woodson, The Story of the Negro Retold (Washington, DC, 1942); Justin Winsor, Critical History of America (Boston, 1884-1889; W.E.B. DuBois, The Gift of Black Folk (Boston, 1924), pp. 35-51; Roland B. Dixon, Racial History of Man (New York, 1923), pp. 393-406, 436-451 and 459; J.B. Thatcher, Christopher Columbus, Vol. 2 (New York, 1903-1904), pp. 379-380; J. McCabe, The Splendor of Moorish Spain (London, 1935), pp. 179-202; A. Quatrefages, Introduction a l'étude des races humaines (Paris, 1889), p. 406; Leo Wiener, Africa and the Discovery of America, Vol. 1 (Chicago, 1922), pp. 169-170, 172, 174, 175 and Vol. 3, pp. 225-261, 264-266, 314-322; Harold Lawrence, "African Explorers in the New World," Crisis, 1962, pp. 321-332; N. Leon, História géneral de México (México, 1919), p. 14; Carter G. Woodson, African Background Outlined (Washington, DC, 1936), pp. 3-19; Almose A. Thompson, "Pre-Columbian Black Presence in the Western Hemisphere," Negro History Bulletin, 1975, pp. 452-456; James Churchward, The Lost Continent of Mu (New York, 1968-1969).
Source:
http://hierographics.org/yourhistoryonline/yourhistoryonlineII.htm
Your History Online II, including additional reading recommendation from a public library, from Hierographics.org.

More reading from Amazon.com: The Lost Treasure of King Juba: The Evidence of Africans in America before Columbus, by Frank Joseph.

Dawn Voyage: The Black African Discovery of America , by Michael Bradley

Islam in the African-American Experience by Richard Brent-“Covers a lot of ground -- Mansa Musa of Mali & Abu Bakari, Duse Muhammad Ali, Noble Dru Ali, Master Fard Muhammad, Elijah Muhammad, W D Muhammad, Imaam Isa of the Ansaar Nubian Islamic Hebrews, etc.”

Excerpt 4:
“Contrary to all traditional European accounts of the "discovery" of America, which put the Vikings in first place followed by Columbus, overwhelming anthropological evidence places Africans in the Americas since the 9th century. In 1975 the inscriptions on three stones found in Quebec, which had been lying in a museum for some 50 years, were finally deciphered by Professor Howard Fell.

These Boustrophedon inscriptions read: "Expedition that crossed in the service of Lord Hiram to conquer the territory;" "Record by Hata, who attained this limit on the river, moored his ship and engraved this rock;" "Hanno, son of Tamu, reached this mountain landmark." According to Laval University Professor Thomas Lee, these people came from North Africa some 500 years B.C. He thinks this expedition reached the Sherbrooke area by sailing up the St. Francis River which empties into the St. Lawrence southwest of Trois Rivieres.

This is believed to be one of two expeditions by North Africans, the other one landing in Yucatan. Archealogical excavation in Mexico in the 1860s found evidence such as the "Cabeza Colosal." According to an inscription on a nearby stone associated with it, it was carved 1,783 years before the arrival of Columbus. Experts agree that it was the work of Africans or people under their direct influence.

The fact that traditional accounts ignore the African contribution to pre-Columbian America illustrates the eurocentric version of history taught in our schools and with which our culture is imbued. This outlook seeks to show that Europe was the pinnacle of civilization, discoveries and progress and, by virtue of the same, that European cultures and "races" were (and are) the most advanced. In fact, Africans knew the world was a sphere long before the Europeans. Towards the middle of the 12th century, a North African scientist, El Idrisi, wrote, "What results from the opinion of philosophers, learned men, and those skilled in observation of the heavenly bodies, is that the world is as round as a sphere, of which the waters are adherent and maintained upon its surface by natural equilibrium.

African historians such as Abulfeda who lived in the late 13th and early 14th centuries, had been teaching students that the world was round and that ships had circumnavigated it. The noted African scholar Al Omari, published a book in the 1340s, which recounted that people from the Mali Empire had crossed the Atlantic Ocean and reached America during the reign of the great Mansa Musa (c. 1312-1334) whose empire was the size of present-day Europe.”

Source: Shunpikin Online, reprinted from “Youth Today, Vol. 2, No.2, February 1996. In 1996, Sandra L. Smith, presently the National Leader of the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist), was the project co-ordinator for Youth Today.”

…And I am sure you can do your own research on this, and come to your own conclusions. However, it is well known that Mansa Musa expeditions led to their discovery of America(s).

Says ibn Amir Hajib
“I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into
his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by
heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would
not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of
the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted
in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them
with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold,
water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years.
He told those who commanded them: return only when
you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you
have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their
absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a
sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their
adventure.

Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we
encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with
violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on,
gradually each entered this place, they disappeared
and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where
I was and did not enter that current.

But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped
2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left
with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I
saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master
of the empire”.[/b]/i]

Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari
Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans
Masilik el Absar
Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927
74-5

Icon 3 posted 05 January, 2005 06:16 PM Profile for alTakruri Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote

While cognizant that there were voyages, whether intentional or
accidental across the Atlantic to the Americas by various Old
World peoples, I remain skeptical of unsubstantiated claims.
Claims that tend to detract and serve to undermine verifed and
verifiable accomplishments of African peoples their cultures,
civilization, and history, particularly the West African empires
of Mali and Songhai whose outlying provinces where the ones
involved in trans-Atlantic ventures.

I consider supposed explorations of the Americas ordered by
Mansa Musa as spurious, lacking any documentation. Without
doubt it was Bubakari II who was interested in trans-Atlantic
exploration. He himself sailed toward the Americas but we lack
any report of his findings because he was never heard of again
or the government of the extensive Mali empire decided to keep
silence on the matter, something not unusual where trade is
involved.

The failure of the early 14th century emperor to return home is
what led to Mansa Gonga Musa assuming leadership. This is
his account of those events as he related in Cairo while on hajj
to Mecca

quote:Says ibn Amir Hajib
“I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into
his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by
heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would
not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of
the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted
in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them
with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold,
water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years.
He told those who commanded them: return only when
you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you
have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their
absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a
sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their
adventure.

Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we
encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with
violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on,
gradually each entered this place, they disappeared
and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where
I was and did not enter that current.

But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped
2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left
with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I
saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master
of the empire”.

Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari
Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans
Masilik el Absar
Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927
74-5

Also there may be evidence of nongovernmental directed trade between
West Africa and the Caribbean region, it‘s historic, linguistic, and
metallurgical. The word for a gold alloy sold in Hispaniola was the
same as that in Guinea.
[i]
"...h[b]e [Columbus] thought to investigate the report of the Indians
of this Espanola (Haiti) who said that there had come to
Espanola from the south and south-east a black people who
have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they
call 'guanin'[/b] of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns
to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts 18
were of gold 6 of silver and 8 of copper."

J. Batalha Reis
Supposed Discovery of South America before 1488 and the
Critical Methods of the Historians of Geographical Discovery
Geographical Journal, Royal Geographical Society 9.2 1897
p 205 quoting from
Raccolta de Documenti e Studi, Parte I, Vol. I, Scritti de Colombo p. 96

This guanin is precisely the same word kanine in Kono, a language
spoken in Guinea. Variations of kanine pervade Mande languages
and ultimately derives from Ghana the West African empire that was
world reknowned for its gold trade. This gold alloy that included silver
and copper was recorded by W[i]illiam Bosmanin A New and Accurate
Description of the Coast of Guinea London, 1705, pp 73, 74.[/i]

Columbus mention of the black traders of guanin accompanies an
intent to prove a notion by a king Dom Jaoa II of Portugal who was
certain there was land southwest of Cabo Verde because of merchandise
laden Guinean shippers seen heading in that direction in the 1480‘s,
well before Columbus ever ventured to the Americas. When Columbus
first applied to Portugal in 1484 its ruler told him that lands over 1500
miles west of Cape Verde were already claimed by Portugal. The
Andrea Biancho map of 1448 shows that land writing an "authentic
island is distant 1500 miles to the west." It looks like northeastern
Brazil which is actually more like 2300 miles southwest of Cape Verde.

Another trade item intimately tied into African and Middle American
economics was strips of cloth woven from the seeds of the silk cotton
tree. Columbus wrote of this almaizar cloth

QUOTE:
"handerchiefs of cotton, very symmetrically woven and
worked in colors like those brought from Guinea, from the rivers of
Sierra Leone, and of no difference."

Icon 3 posted 05 January, 2005 06:16 PM Profile for alTakruri Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote

While cognizant that there were voyages, whether intentional or
accidental across the Atlantic to the Americas by various Old
World peoples, I remain skeptical of unsubstantiated claims.
Claims that tend to detract and serve to undermine verifed and
verifiable accomplishments of African peoples their cultures,
civilization, and history, particularly the West African empires
of Mali and Songhai whose outlying provinces where the ones
involved in trans-Atlantic ventures.

I consider supposed explorations of the Americas ordered by
Mansa Musa as spurious, lacking any documentation. Without
doubt it was Bubakari II who was interested in trans-Atlantic
exploration. He himself sailed toward the Americas but we lack
any report of his findings because he was never heard of again
or the government of the extensive Mali empire decided to keep
silence on the matter, something not unusual where trade is
involved.

The failure of the early 14th century emperor to return home is
what led to Mansa Gonga Musa assuming leadership. This is
his account of those events as he related in Cairo while on hajj
to Mecca

quote:Says ibn Amir Hajib
“I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into
his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by
heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would
not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of
the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted
in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them
with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold,
water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years.
He told those who commanded them: return only when
you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you
have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their
absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a
sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their
adventure.

Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we
encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with
violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on,
gradually each entered this place, they disappeared
and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where
I was and did not enter that current.

But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped
2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left
with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I
saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master
of the empire”.

Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari
Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans
Masilik el Absar
Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927
74-5

There‘s evidence of nongovernmental directed trade between
West Africa and the Caribbean region, it‘s historic, linguistic, and
metallurgical. The word for a gold alloy sold in Hispaniola was the
same as that in Guinea.

quote:"...he [Columbus] thought to investigate the report of the Indians
of this Espanola (Haiti) who said that there had come to
Espanola from the south and south-east a black people who
have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they
call 'guanin' of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns
to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts 18
were of gold 6 of silver and 8 of copper."

J. Batalha Reis
Supposed Discovery of South America before 1488 and the
Critical Methods of the Historians of Geographical Discovery
Geographical Journal, Royal Geographical Society 9.2 1897
p 205 quoting from
Raccolta de Documenti e Studi, Parte I, Vol. I, Scritti de Colombo p. 96

This guanin is precisely the same word kanine in Kono, a language
spoken in Guinea. Variations of kanine pervade Mande languages
and ultimately derives from Ghana the West African empire that was
world reknowned for its gold trade. This gold alloy that included silver
and copper was recorded by William Bosmanin A New and Accurate
Description of the Coast of Guinea London, 1705, pp 73, 74.

Columbus mention of the black traders of guanin accompanies an
intent to prove a notion by a king Dom Jaoa II of Portugal who was
certain there was land southwest of Cabo Verde because of merchandise
laden Guinean shippers seen heading in that direction in the 1480‘s,
well before Columbus ever ventured to the Americas. When Columbus
first applied to Portugal in 1484 its ruler told him that lands over 1500
miles west of Cape Verde were already claimed by Portugal. The
Andrea Biancho map of 1448 shows that land writing an "authentic
island is distant 1500 miles to the west." It looks like northeastern
Brazil which is actually more like 2300 miles southwest of Cape Verde.

Another trade item intimately tied into African and Middle American
economics was strips of cloth woven from the seeds of the silk cotton
tree. Columbus wrote of this almaizar cloth

quote:"... handerchiefs of cotton, very symmetrically woven and
worked in colors like those brought from Guinea, from the rivers of
Sierra Leone, and of no difference."


Like guanin, almaizar was of economic importance being used as
currency in West Africa and in Middle America. The siik cotton tree
was grown in Middle America and the Americans wove almaizar
of their own. Was this a botanical and technological transplant
following the wake of pre Luso-Hispanic trans-Atlantic West African
trade set up by Mandinka settlers? Philological ethnonymic and
historic anthropology evidence shows that several names of towns
and ethnies in Middle America were of West African derivation.

These things are well documented and of certain surety unlike stray
single mentions of elephants in Arizona or minaretted masjids in
Mexico, Texas, and Nevada, which I rule out until referenced by
primary citations with quotes.

Trade involves goods from at least two terminals. What made it worth
the West Africans efforts to trade with Middle Americans? I mean what
went from the Americas to West Africa? This is an area for students and
scholars of Africana studies to look into. It will further bolster the already
existant evidence of pre Luso-Hispanic trans-Atlantic West African/Middle
American trade.

Now onto the The Hull Bay Skeletons...

There have been claims made that there are two "Negroid" skeletons first examined by scientists at the Smithsonian, dated approx. 1200 A.D. at St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands. I wanted to know the specifics, and whether or not these skeletons could have just as easily been Paleo-Indians so I tracked down a PDF of the official study, which surprisingly was conducted in part, by Larry Angel.
http://www.stcroixarchaeology.org/files/Hull_Bay_Skeletons_-_Ubelaker_-_Angel.pdf

It seems that there is no question that these skeletons were of Africans. Two sets of comparative analysis were formed. The facial composition as well as body build. It turns out that not only did they have decidedly African features, but elongated tropical body plans, consistent with an overall African morphology. A date was reached by dating an adornment on the arm of one of the specimens and even they were surprised that the date was definitely pre-Columbian. Again, there is little question about the date. However, it seems that the other skeleton (skeleton B), was clearly modern as conversely, it was associated with post-Columbian artifacts, namely coffin nails (Van Sertima neglected to mention this). Thus, they could not associate skeleton A with skeleton B, the former being associated with the pre-colonial artifacts. Their only doubt comes from complete speculation of accidental association:


"If this date of 1200 A.D. is correct, it is difficult to reconcile with the morphological evidence from the skeleton. Assuming that the identification and date of the vessel is correct, the most likely explanation is that the vessel-skeleton association was accidental or perhaps represents the chance finding of the vessel when the burial pit was dug originally. Possibly the contemporaries of skeleton A could have found the vessel and placed it with the skeleton at the time of burial. As unlikely as this procedure appears, it is certainly more conceivable than a Black presence on St. Thomas around 1200 A.D.---Smithsonian Institution

^^Now folks, let us put our critical thinking caps on for a second. What they are essentially saying, is that it is more likely to believe that either slave era Blacks established their own colony at St. Thomas (no historical data attests to this as far as I'm aware), buried their dead at Hull Bay and used random 400 year old native American artifacts to adorn their graves. Or rather, modern post colonial Blacks, living in meager non-urban settlements developed a similar custom of burying their dead which at this point would be a 700 year old native American artifacts that has absolutely no value to them or the said loved one. Is this really "more conceivable than a Black presence on St. Thomas around 1200 A.D." ?? Or in other words, more conceivable than the notion that African seafarers, who are documented to have attempted an Atlantic crossing around this time, umm, actually made it across!?

Note: Obviously the date 1200 A.D., or even 1250 A.D. at its closest, is still 62 years shy of Abubakari's purported voyage. However, taking into account the margins of error often associated with our dating techniques, I'm sure this very small discrepancy in time can be accounted for to conform to a theory claiming that African sailors landed near this area in the 14th century.

In association with this, Van sertima, in trying to force a connection, cites evidence of Proto-Tifinagh being found "near the area".. He claims that inscriptions were confirmed as such by the Lybian department of Antiquities. Actually, I tracked down the original report by Dr. Fell and the critique by Dr. David Kelly. Ignoring Fell's wild theories of Scandinavian association, they both agree that the inscriptions seem to indeed be Proto-Tiffinagh but the inscriptions are associated with the Bronze age and were found no where near the Virgin Islands, but in Ontario. While this deserves exploration, it has nothing to do with the Hull Bay skeletons or Abubakari II as they are separated by immense time and space.

See: Kelly, David. "Proto-Tiffinagh and Proto-Ogham in the Americas" (1990). Archaeological Review.

I'll post more stuff later...

yes, west africans discovered the new world where millions of native americans have been living

the evidence that west africans discovered america has been hidden, its time you reclaim your history



* ends sarcasm lmao

Journal of Christopher Columbus...

Not much to interpret here. It seems that Van Sertima quoted Columbus correctly, though sometimes out of context (which doesn't undermine his argument). I followed the source directing me to the book by John Boyd Thatcher, which can be easily accessed via archives.org or google books. It's called "Christopher Columbus: his life, his works, his remains" (1904) and comes in three volumes. For instance, this quote, often cited by Van Sertima and attributed to Columbus is found on page 380 in the 2nd volume:

QUOTE:
"and he (a Portuguese admiral) thought to investigate reports of the Indians of this Española who said that there had come to Española from the south and south-east, a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they called Guanin."

^According to the notes given by Thatcher, the Indians had told this to a Jaime Ferrer who documented this after being there previously (note that Columbus made three Journeys).. As you can see though, this isn't an eye-witness description by Columbus but a third person account.

..........................

Botanical data.. Assuming Abubakari II brought with him the provisions necessary for trade and survival in the seas and in a distant land, I'm sure various plants would have accompanied him. Van Sertima has claimed that the African bottle gourd, given its geographic origin must have made it to the Americas via direct colonization from Africa. I was convinced until I came across a paper which genetically tested the various bottle gourd species' found in the Americas, and they are of the Asian variety.

______________________________________________________________


Reliability of Al-Umari and the Malian Griot

QUOTE:
Ibn Amir Hajib continued: "I asked Sultan Musa how the kingdom fell to him, and he said: 'We belong to a house which hands on the king­ship by inheritance. The king who was my predecessor did not believe that it was impossible to discover the furthest limit of the Atlantic Ocean and wished vehemently to do so. So he equipped 200 ships filled with men and the same number equipped with gold, water, and provisions enough to last them for years, and he said to the man deputed to lead them: "Do not return until you reach the end of it or your provisions and water give out." They departed and a long time passed before anyone came back. Then one ship returned and we asked the captain what news they brought. He said: "Yes, O Sultan, we travelled for a long time until there appeared in the open sea [as it were] a river with a powerful current. Mine was the last of those ships. The [other] ships went on ahead but when they reached that place they did not return and no more was seen of them and we do not know what became of them. As for me, I went about at once and did not enter that river." But the sultan disbelieved him.

'"Then that Sultan got ready 2,000 ships, 1,000 for himself and the men whom he took with him and 1,000 for water and provisions. He left me to deputize for him and embarked upon the Atlantic Ocean with his men. That was the last we saw of him and all those who were with him, and so I became king in my own right.'

---Al-Umari

Now, Eurocentrists who dispute Al-umari's account would be hard pressed to explain why the same story is still repeated among Mali oral historians. Also, Euro detractors have often pointed out that if Abubakari actually took 2,000 ships across the Atlantic, then why were not even one of these ships discovered? They also cite that 2,000 seems like an excessive number. I'd rebut by asking them why not even one of the 3,000 ships that the Songhai used to cross the Niger river in their retreat against the Moroccan militia in 1591, were found? Simple. No one is looking for them. The odds of tripping over a medieval ship somewhere on the coastal tip of south America, is very slim.

For feasibility, I will quote Brent Campbell:


There have been several important experiments with African boats and the Atlantic currents. Starting in 1952, Dr. Alain Bombard sailed from Casablanca to Barbados in an African raft. In 1955, Dr. Hannes Lindemann sailed for fifty-two days from the Cape Verde Islands to the South American coast. Both journeys were made alone and the men arrived in good health. In 1969, Thor Heyerdahl conducted two experiments, one with the Ra I and the other with the Ra II. The Ra I and the Ra II were ships built identical to an earlier model African ship. The ships were built out of papyrus and were constructed the way they would have been during the Pre-Columbian era. The Ra I was built by the Buduma people first. The Ra I started at Safi in North Africa and sailed to Barbados. The Ra I fell short of making the journey across the Atlantic. The Ra II was built by a native American tribe, the Aymara, this ship made it from Africa to America successfully. These experiments prove that if these simple vessels could negotiate the Atlantic Ocean using one of the two currents, then some of Africa's more sophisticated ships could have made the trip.


Let's do some simple math assuming that Abubakari II actually attempted the voyage. If these people made it in one try in one ship, wouldn't the odds of Abubakari II successfully making that cross be 2,000 fold in his favor? It seems that the previous expedition, which was swallowed by a wave was a fluke, or maybe Abubakari II was justified in not believing the returning sailor, who likely got scared. Also, if you read the quote, the sailor stated that they were in "open sea". How did he find his way back and against the current from that far out if they didn't already have some sort of previous knowledge? What in the world would make one risk their life on the assumption that there's a limit to the Atlantic, or as Diawara states, an opposite bank like that on the Niger river? Who told them that or was Abubarkari II simply that brazen??
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Many of these inscriptions have been found along the Rio Chao river in the state of Alagos in Brazil. These inscriptions are of two kinds. One group of inscriptions were meant to warn the Manding expeditionary force not to camp in certain areas. Inscriptions in this category are found at Piraicaba, Brazil. Another group of inscriptions were left in areas suitable for settlement.

Once a safe place was found for settlement, the Manding colonists could have built built stone cities or mound habitations. One of these lost cities was found in A.D. 1753, by banderistas (bandits). These inscriptions were found in the State of Bahia,Brazil by Padre Tellesde Menezes, in Marajo near the Paraoacu and Una rivers engraved over a mausolea. They tell us that the personage buried in the Tomb was named Pe.

The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil
Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features.


The personage in this Tablet was an elite of Malian colony in Brazil.Evidence suggesting a Manding origin for the Brazil Tablet are 1) THE CROWN worn by the personage on the tablet; 2) the Manding inscriptions inscribed across the chest and feet of the figure on the Tablet; and 3) the evidence of breeches similar to the Manding style worn by the personage depicted on the Tablet.

The decipherment of these inscriptions detail the burial place, and cause of death of a Mansa. it appears that the Mansa on the Brazil Tablet" was named Be. It tells us that Be, was buried in a hemisphere tomb (i.e., mound).

[size=15pt]CONCLUSION:[/size]
There is not enough strong evidence to say West Africans did make it to the new world. There is just not enough strong evidence. But to just dismiss it as Afrocentric and throw this claim under the bus just just wrong. There is a FACT and the FACT is that Abubakari II of Mali wanted to travel across the Atlantic with over 2,000 ships and this has been documented. So it is not fair to just dismiss the claim of west Africans possibly sailing to the New World.

But again we still need more strong EVIDENCE to say West Africans really did reach the New World. Until them, I believe this topic is arguable at best.

That is my conclusion.

KidStranglehold: [size=15pt]CONCLUSION:[/size]
There is not enough strong evidence to say West Africans did make it to the new world. There is just not enough strong evidence. But to just dismiss it as Afrocentric and throw this claim under the bus just just wrong. There is a FACT and the FACT is that Abubakari II of Mali wanted to travel across the Atlantic with over 2,000 ships and this has been documented. So it is not fair to just dismiss the claim of west Africans possibly sailing to the New World.

But again we still need more strong EVIDENCE to say West Africans really did reach the New World. Until them, I believe this topic is arguable at best.

That is my conclusion.

I concur.

*Kails*:


I concur.

Thanks!

sawahilis were arabs


u just mad that ur stupiddd people couldnt find the new world even though it was right infront of u


lmao

riyaq: sawahilis were arabs


u just mad that ur stupiddd people couldnt find the new world even though it was right infront of u


lmao

Its Swahili and their not Arab.

KidStranglehold:

Its Swahili and their not Arab.

lol, plz do research....do you know the meaning of swahili?

riyaq:


lol, plz do research....do you know the meaning of swahili?

Again the Swahili were not Arab. Cut the crap.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsoPMbt5CZM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew_3IQ6842Q

swahilis are slaves to arabs......read your history mate



enough with this afrocentrism


any history that shows blacks as doing anything worth shid is a lie

riyaq: swahilis are slaves to arabs......read your history mate



enough with this afrocentrism


any history that shows blacks as doing anything worth shid is a lie

Lol! Now Swahili's were slaves to Arabs themselves. Too funny.

i apologize but in somali history


all the negroids were slaves to arabs from kenya to tanzania


somalis controlled the seas in the horn

KidStranglehold:

Lol! Now Swahili's were slaves to Arabs themselves. Too funny.

You seem not to know who you are arguing with. This is the great Anyale, known for spamming the culture section with Somali superiority threads. He argues in almost a loopless manner.

Nice research up there, bro!!!

Tony Spike:

You seem not to know who you are arguing with. This is the great Anyale, known for spamming the culture section with Somali superiority threads. He argues in almost a loopless manner.

Nice research up there, bro!!!

I know who he is...I had this exact same argument with him on another thread when he was on his somalia9 account.

Anyways thanks!

Tony Spike:

You seem not to know who you are arguing with. This is the great Anyale, known for spamming the culture section with Somali superiority threads. He argues in almost a loopless manner.

Nice research up there, bro!!!

i guess my personality proceeds me

Africans did reach the shores of the AMERICAS long before Columbus there and is a lot of evidence to support it.
There is a Guyanese Historian by the name of Professor Ivan Van Sertima. If anyone looks him up on Youtube.
There will be some good info up there.

Jayvarley: Africans did reach the shores of the AMERICAS long before Columbus there and is a lot of evidence to support it.
There is a Guyanese Historian by the name of Professor Ivan Van Sertima. If anyone looks him up on Youtube.
There will be some good info up there.

some people claim the olmecs/Aztecs had early encounters with Africans because of similarities with Egypt and how some of their deities/statues sported features and animals only found in Africa...but I still don't believe it.

Even if they did, it wasn't like THEY built the civilizations.
Perhaps a few went and provided the inspiration but as far as the establishments of the kingdoms/empires go, they are native American accomplishments.

I don't believe one bit that Africans had contact with the Olmecs or the Olmecs were African. But...I think it is possible that Malians reached the Americas(Not before the Vikings and Chinese), but I don't know about colonizing it. Thats a total different story. We have DO HAVE historic records that a Malian king traveled the Atlantic and that is a FACT that no one can debunked.

And when do you plan on posting the "undebunkable facts"? Lol.

Who here believes in the out of Africa Theory

Well if you believe that all men on earth are originally from Africa, this will tell you Africans travelled and spread throughout the globe.

Then is it so hard to believe that more recently Africans again travelled on boats across the Atlantic?

All one would have to do is get in a boat and the SEA CURRENTS will take you right into the new world.

Jayvarley: Who here believes in the out of Africa Theory

Well if you believe that all men on earth are originally from Africa, this will tell you Africans travelled and spread throughout the globe.

Then is it so hard to believe that more recently Africans again travelled on boats across the Atlantic?

All one would have to do is get in a boat and the SEA CURRENTS will take you right into the new world.

sir that is a cop out.
the Indians left present day Asia and ventured into the Americas via the Bering Straight before



migrating to the south. It took them thousands of years to cover the entire north and southern
American continents. From south America some migrated from
present day Venezuela and central America to
inhabit the Caribbean islands. We know this to be true
due to linguistics, DNA, and culture. African DNA and culture ONLY entered that region following the slave trade.

Also traveling via the Atlantic is NOT that simple.
Sea currents are very harsh. The average journey took 3 months! and you have to take into
account the hurricane seasons. Even Iberian and Jewish
ships BARELY made it through successfully upon their first encounters and when the slave
trade was wide spread.

THIS IS A DAMN LIE!

[img]http://blondesearch.ru/img/48/48b/THE_AFRICAN_OLMECS_IN_MESO_AMERICA.jpg[/img]

PERIOD. POINT. BLANK!
we cant be going around stealing people's history and then getting mad when white people
do it to us.

THIS IS FACT!

*Kails*:
And when do you plan on posting the "undebunkable facts"? Lol.

About the Malian King sailing the Atlantic? I already posted it. I never said Africans discovered the Americas, and we do not even know if that Malian king even made it to the Americas. But there is PROOF that he set sail. The thing is..Did he make it or not? This thread is just speculating the idea if Africans truly made it to the new world.

I never said everything the Afro-centrists say is correct? However it is a matter of difference in opinion. I will agree to disagree.

The fact remains that ALL peoples on the planet are descended from AFRICANS. It's just a case of how far back in time you want to go. Blacks will always be told our HIS- TORY which is that we came from nothing. This is why the TERM SUB SAHARAN AFRICAN came from to ensure we are SEPERATE to the WONDERS of EGYPT. I believe that no people on the planet possessed the wisdom knowledge of the Ancient Egyptians during their time. So if anyone could do it, they certainly could!

KidStranglehold:

About the Malian King sailing the Atlantic? I already posted it. I never said Africans discovered the Americas, and we do not even know if that Malian king even made it to the Americas. But there is PROOF that he set sail. The thing is..Did he make it or not? This thread is just speculating the idea if Africans truly made it to the new world.

bottom line.
and I doubt it.

Jayvarley: I never said everything the Afro-centrists say is correct? However it is a matter of difference in opinion. I will agree to disagree.

The fact remains that ALL peoples on the planet are descended from AFRICANS. It's just a case of how far back in time you want to go. Blacks will always be told our HIS- TORY which is that we came from nothing. This is why the TERM SUB SAHARAN AFRICAN came from to ensure we are SEPERATE to the WONDERS of EGYPT. I believe that no people on the planet possessed the wisdom knowledge of the Ancient Egyptians during their time. So if anyone could do it, they certainly could!

lol ok.