Stillfire:


Do you think respective roles may differ from home to home in today's world and may not be set in stone as it were in the past?

Dynamism is the hallmark of a wonderful home. What matters is agreement and consent of parties involved.

bukatyne:

Read again...
No be me call myself pseudo anything
Hair that they have probably chanted on. It is well (it gives me the creeps). I imagine Mrs. Bellong cutting her hair and I fix it after treatment

Tufiakwa... I still support synthetic hairs/attachments but not human hairs. Who knows the kind of terrible curse on the original head..

Nonso23:


That is where we get it wrong. There were strong women as individuals and groups too. The O.p explained how it was in Igbo land. I might not be privy to in-depth information on how the Hausa women collectively held their own but i know the yorubas had trade unions that were very vocal.
The Europeans during colonization divided and conquered our traditional system. We were on the right path and doing just fine before they butted in and displaced everything with their own ideologies. Today their system is 'fine' for them and they are trying again to butt into the already disintegrated African traditional system. Polar bears can not thrive in the sahara.
Africa needs to re-invent herself from the inside with little or no external inputs.

Our traditional religious system was not terrible . Today it is just abused.

@ bolded: Are you a Christian?

We all must be getting history wrong then. Like the OP said, a lot of people complain about the girls of nowadays as the olden days mothers were more 'submissive', the men had free rein to do as they wished, polygamy thrived etc. etc.

There is a missing link somewhere

Besides, there is no way we can isolate our self from external influence. I would only want us to choose the external influence and retain some aspects of our culture. (Heavy emphasis on some)

For some reason, I cannot fathom why workers in church (RCCG) as a case study cannot wear smart traditional wears. Jesus definitely did not preach in suit

Nonso23:
Very interesting! Though i'm aware of most of the stuffs contained in the o.p and subsequent related posts i'm surprised at one thing.

Africans or more specifically the Nigerian ethnic groups were a lot more ahead of their western counterparts in gender relations and equity until the Europeans thought the system was not 'right' and eventually succeeded in crushing that balance as we knew it with their power as colonialists leaving us for the worse.
Today though they do not colonize our lands, our thoughts and perception of everything is not only colonized by them but also ruled by their subtle messages covered in all kinds of alluring packages. We gradually are being left again for the worse.

Africa never marginalized the female gender. Certain practices may appear absurd today but they were agreed upon by all parties before they were carried out in the olden days. The men did not invent killing of twins. The community of old did. The men did not invent the ridiculous rites a widow must undergo after the death of her husband, the primitive society did, the men did not invent the laws that a woman should not own lands the primitive society did and that primitive society was made up of men, women and their children. Nobody should be blamed for anything. If ever we are going to develop in any way then our indigenous cultures should be modified to suit the current times. Nothing is more embarrassing than a people without a history. The Chinese did it and are currently the strongest economy in the world. They should be our role model.

Our culture is very rich and i agree that we have some very dark patches in it but we also have a lot of good aspects and funny, ridiculous components too. To neglect these good areas and focus the dark spots while blaming the men for where we are today will portray the current flock of women as weak and cowardly. That is not what the women of old were. They stood up for what they wanted worked for it and earned their respect. They knew what 'responsibility' meant. No sane man will dare to disrespect such a woman. Our grandmothers were not obnoxious, hateful, denigrating nor self-centred - the 'virtues' our women today embrace with dexterity (at least on the internet). Today, women have equal rights to education. Certain areas in Nigeria have the quota system in place to correct any cultural marginalization. Women are equipped to also contribute to Africa's development as they once did but unfortunately the most vocal ones would rather argue that women should smoke because a lot of men doing so or how women should go topless because the men can. Very absurd.

Our mothers were dedicated to their homes and prided themselves on the success of their family. They were respectful to their husbands and never hinged their loyalty on his earning power. Today all that is almost fantasy. If the women will only realise that that wife beater, that 419, that rapiist, that armed robber, that loafer, that cheat, that murderer was trained by both a woman and her man and that the currently terrible society we live in has as much input from the woman as the man can we can talk about moving forward. Till then we will still buy into the same unsuitable western ideologies damaging both the west and their homes; us and everything we stand for.


AFRICA NEEDS EDUCATION!

Africans today believe gender relations is a foreign subject though.
About the topics on women going top.less (even though I don't waste my time with such topics, since Africa today has bigger female issues to deal with), I could argue though that my tradition allows me to go top.less. However I find it absurd and hypocritical Western women are campaigning for such when years ago and even today they branded/brand my foremothers primitive for being top.less.

byvan:




She probably might not be frustrated, some had no dreams.

I hammer on that a lot

It is not everything that is the fault of the husband. Some women have none, what can the poor husband do? Husband push them too much and they see it as the man can no longer provide

bellong:


Dynamism is the hallmark of a wonderful home. What matters is agreement and consent of parties involved.



Tufiakwa... I still support synthetic hairs/attachments but not human hairs. Who knows the kind of terrible curse on the original head..

Lol @ support

Human hair is no no

Funny thing is they spend so much money to acquire people's curses and some people do not even know the difference between human and good synthetic

bukatyne:


I hammer on that a lot

It is not everything that is the fault of the husband. Some women have none, what can the poor husband do? Husband push them too much and they see it as the man can no longer provide

I think is more like dream killer + no dream = . Most women these days want something doing....i guess.

byvan:




I think is more like dream killer + no dream = . Most women these days want something doing....i guess.

Double wahala for dead body

A lot of women want to get spending money (earning it, getting it free, getting it at a cost) and not fulfilling their dreams (if they have one)

The spending money thingy is not limited to women alone

bukatyne:


Lol @ support

Human hair is no no

Funny thing is they spend so much money to acquire people's curses and some people do not even know the difference between human and good synthetic

Left to me, I prefer hair cut. It looks super cute on some women.

Braiding and weaving ain't bad too..

bellong:


Left to me, I prefer hair cut. It looks super cute on some women.

Braiding and weaving ain't bad too..

Now we need a rolls eyes button

Nonso23:


Polygamy and other things we call vices today were not the fault of men the society of old tolerated it. Our mothers were submissive and not doormats. Submissive did not and does not connote stupid and dumb.
What do you expect when African history was documented mostly by Europeans ?
The few indigenous ones are not even 1/100 times as popular.

We cannot isolate ourselves but we can choose what we accept into our system. We need to keep a lot of our culture. The beautiful aspects are too many and colorful to be called 'some'.
We need to reinvent ourselves by ourselves by ourselves. We are an intelligent people.

So much have been eroded by the culture. Our clothing most especially. That aspect we cannot change instantly unfortunately.

Clothing: I think we are doing well there really; some times ago, iro and buba were old mama stuffs. It has been reinvented with fitting bubas and velvet wrappers; silk materials etc. we also have general Ankara clothing.

I never said submissive = doormat that's why I put it quotes

We will get there someday... Strangely, I believe marriages of now and men/women relationships are actually improving

chaircover:


You are absolutely rght. Its not just about being financially independent.
I can be financally independent but spend all my money on gold and clothes, yet my neighbour could be physically abused by her husband everyday and I do nothing to help.
What I need to do as a woman is to be a role model to those around me and add value to those around me. I need to educate myself on a whole heap of different things, so I can be of help to myself and to someone when the need arises.
Our mothers and grandmothers were very hardworking, they stood together shoulder to shoulder and there was communitiy spirit. I still rememebr the stories my grandma used to tell me.
Its not really like that now and its everyman for himself and this is part of where the problem is coming from. its a me me me society that we live in now and the important things are put aside for less important things.

sadly it is not like that anymore. What we have now is a vicious tear her down mentality exhibited by fellow women to others as if there is a prize for who crushes the other woman faster.

bukatyne:




Now we need a rolls eyes button

bellong:

bukatyne:

At topic/OP - YES, YES, YES & YES.





^{Stillwater/Stillfire I swear I ain't being lazy, I read all your 3 articles, all 76,000 words of them, I am just practising the "summary" lessons you taught me when you were my English Teacher eons ago}

U mm mm I haven't seen a non hard working African Nigerian woman. Standing outside the cold in Europe sef bargaining or carrying cutlass to farm is not beans.

Stillwater well done

armyofone:
U mm mm[b] I haven't seen a non hard working African Nigerian woman. [/b] Standing outside the cold in Europe sef bargaining or carrying cutlass to farm is not beans.

Stillwater well done

You know I said the same thing yesterday.
Most Nigerian women are very hardworking . . .Very!

Very insightful thread and comments i'd show this to my friends but they'd rather talk about this cuuute!!!guy and some cool shoes issorait.
I do agree it all has to do with mentality.In my first year of high sch.lots of girls were topping the result board but as we went higher,only about two of us were among top ten.Sometimes i talk about change,women empowerment etc and i get blank looks.At 16>17 girls are already thinking of packing into their rich husbands houses with no ambitions of their own O di egwu.

Lovely topic Stillfire(by the way I loved your other name Stillwater still waters run deep if that was you )....

The historical angle Is very informative.Its truly not our culture to have heavily dependent women.In Yoruba language there is even a derogatory term for a woman who relies on her husband for everything financially (I don't neccesarily always agree with how it's used though esp by one uncle dayokanu like that ) it's called alabodo( feed so you can sleep with).I grew up around very very industrious bold independent women who accomplished a lot both in business and career so I have never really lived or experienced a person being denied the ability to achieve her potentials cos she is a woman.I agree that's my reality though and might not be fair to think some other women or girl children did or do not have to battle such prejudices.

Thanks Stillfire for this lovely thread. Very informative.

Yes some Nigerian women are very hard working. I would like to see Nigerian women who don't stop at being hard working but go further to have inventions/patents to their names. I would like to see more women holding important positions in the community and country and more women who make history and become immortalized.

Chillis:


You know I don't break rules . I don't look for trouble too.
I stay in my lane.

Btw where is pickabeau, I read a thread here that his girlfriend said we should tell him she loves him.

No wonder he has changed. Since he started charity work, he has got some free cochie offline.

I suspect it was pickabeau.

I will have ignored this crap but for the fact that some some simpleton may believe and continue to propagate this crap

I have no girlfriend and it is saddening that supporting aisha2 with her charity work is being misconstrued as an opportunity for free coochie.

Tragic

damiso:
Lovely topic Stillfire(by the way I loved your other name Stillwater still waters run deep if that was you )....

The historical angle Is very informative.Its truly not our culture to have heavily dependent women.In Yoruba language there is even a derogatory term for a woman who relies on her husband for everything financially (I don't neccesarily always agree with how it's used though esp by one uncle dayokanu like that ) it's called alabodo( feed so you can sleep with).I grew up around very very industrious bold independent women who accomplished a lot both in business and career so I have never really lived or experienced a person being denied the ability to achieve her potentials cos she is a woman.I agree that's my reality though and might not be fair to think some other women or girl children did or do not have to battle such prejudices.

You know Damiso, I wrote the same thing but I lost what I wrote. Culturally Yoruba women have never been second class citizens. I think it depends on the tribe. All my female ancestors were actually even more successful than I am. Business wise in so many different forms. All my over 70yr old and above aunties were given the same educational opportunity as their male relatives if the parents can afford it. It is just that oyinbo people thought women should do secretary, nursing and they made technical degrees more male dominated. Otherwise most of them would have been doctor's, lawyers and engineers.

Women have been Chiefs in Kings councils and some were even kings. So any Yoruba woman that prefers to be alabodo, is strictly forming her own path in life. It is not necessarily that she sees herself as less than the man. Women even unhappy with their men and marriages will openly leave the man and marry another one. They were actually more liberated than now. It is actually Islam and Christianity that brought this women are less than men. Even with children in Yoruba society a child is a child, no better than the other whether male or female.

Exactly @ baby124.
Religion nailed especially early religious indoctrination nailed most women to d ground permanently.

Women r now seen as second class citizens.
How many female VCs have we ever had in our universities?
I remembered then in school, ikejiani Clarke fought tooth and nail to be d vc, for where.
Funny,fellow ladies blackmailed her.

Ngozi iweala was able to go that far cos she wasn't in nigeria.
How many female directors has she'll, exxon mobil,chevron etc produced?
In d pharm world, had late Dora not backed this emzor woman despite all d negativities and blackmail, she would have folded her company like many before her has done.

Let's be truthful, women r expected to attain a certain level and stop.

But women r gradually pushing it. It wasn't easy then for women in d west.
We will get there.

bukatyne:
@OP:

Great Thread

As of today, I doubt there are many institutions where women are openly discriminated at in Nigeria ( I am excluding rural areas and customs here)

The major problem is mental; until the people believe men and women are equal, all institutions established to ensure there are equal opportunities is not going to attain the full potentials.

This mental barrier affects all segments especially in the home; we see men who would be great fathers, spur their daughters to the top but stunt the development of their wives

As more awareness is created and women prove themselves, it changes the traditional mindset and we can progress.

Long thread I must say.
Women used to contribute greatly in the past and were respectful to their husbands but times have changed. I also agree with you that some mental steriotypes should be done away with to encorage women to be at least half as industrous and hardworking as their mothers were BUT I beg to disagree that the stereotypes are abstract. Male's mental capacity is superior to that of female's, forget hollywood. Yorubas will say, 'if there is no reason, you don't become poor suddenly.'
I will attribute women's poor performance to religion and society, which has both given women an excape route from the hustle and bustle of this country. It takes a determined mind to do away with this temptation.
As for women's education, I don't in the slightest thought associate its redundancy to men. Men do the most unimaginable jobs in Nigeria. The worst thing you can see a woman do is a labourer, men die earlier. If these men after they risk their lives decide to sponsor their male children, their gender, what offence have they commited? It is a fact that a male devoid of the influence of his wife(ves) takes good care of his aged parents. There is no tangible reason girls should be specially empowered.
As for women's role in politics, its increasing, but there will surely be a time when law of diminishing returns will set in and will start increasing at a decreasing rate, and finally grind to a halt, due to negligible differences(35-40%).
Another thing that begs for consideration is the morals of women today, loose, arrogant and material(wealth) oriented. Women today easily loose virginity, dress shamefully unlike their mothers, not for any reason but laziness. Due to their money oriented view of life, they find it easier to make it by manipulating religion and culture, which has made it somehow mandatory for men to take care of women, but to use this opportunity, they have to tamper with a man's tèstosterone, by dressing horribly and objectifying themselves.
Lastly, on marriage and polygamy, I think the changing tide(negligible to me due to the fact that in most marrages, couples cheat) is not due to change in women's view of it(they never loved it and were free to divorce), its mainly due to the wrongful misinterpretation of St. Paul's teachings, economic hardship, easy accessibility to loose women and sex workers, phobia for polygamy. Divorce favours men, not that the law favours but our actions made it so.

baby124:

You know Damiso, I wrote the same thing but I lost what I wrote. Culturally Yoruba women have never been second class citizens. I think it depends on the tribe. All my female ancestors were actually even more successful than I am. Business wise in so many different forms. All my over 70yr old and above aunties were given the same educational opportunity as their male relatives if the parents can afford it. It is just that oyinbo people thought women should do secretary, nursing and they made technical degrees more male dominated. Otherwise most of them would have been doctor's, lawyers and engineers.

Women have been Chiefs in Kings councils and some were even kings. So any Yoruba woman that prefers to be alabodo, is strictly forming her own path in life. It is not necessarily that she sees herself as less than the man. Women even unhappy with their men and marriages will openly leave the man and marry another one. They were actually more liberated than now. It is actually Islam and Christianity that brought this women are less than men. Even with children in Yoruba society a child is a child, no better than the other whether male or female.

There are two thing I don't agree with you here:
- If you are an atheist, its your personal conviction. I don't in any way see where bible says women should submit themselves outside the home. It is this lazy attribute in women that makes them join family and society together. Let he who does not work not eat.
- I'm a yoruba, you can't tell me that the value placed on male and female are the same. If you are born as last child(only male), you automatically become the head of the family(olori ebi). It is a taboo for men to buy goods in market(local), my dad once got insulted for degrading his manliness by a woman. If I begin to list the advantages that the male has, my phone's ink will dry up. Though, YORUBA is considerably fear to women if we are to justapose MALE and female.

do you mean fair, your user id is misogynist so one wouldnt expect you to be admitting you fear women. . . . .

didnt know stillfire is stillwater?

And funny enough it is now seen as african tradition. With any woman who believes in self actualization and freedom tagged 'westernized'

baby124:

You know Damiso, I wrote the same thing but I lost what I wrote. Culturally Yoruba women have never been second class citizens. I think it depends on the tribe. All my female ancestors were actually even more successful than I am. Business wise in so many different forms. All my over 70yr old and above aunties were given the same educational opportunity as their male relatives if the parents can afford it. It is just that oyinbo people thought women should do secretary, nursing and they made technical degrees more male dominated. Otherwise most of them would have been doctor's, lawyers and engineers.

Women have been Chiefs in Kings councils and some were even kings. So any Yoruba woman that prefers to be alabodo, is strictly forming her own path in life. It is not necessarily that she sees herself as less than the man. Women even unhappy with their men and marriages will openly leave the man and marry another one. They were actually more liberated than now. It is actually Islam and Christianity that brought this women are less than men. Even with children in Yoruba society a child is a child, no better than the other whether male or female.

Misogynist2014:
There are two thing I don't agree with you here:
- If you are an atheist, its your personal conviction. I don't in any way see where bible says women should submit themselves outside the home. It is this lazy attribute in women that makes them join family and society together. Let he who does not work not eat.
- I'm a yoruba, you can't tell me that the value placed on male and female are the same. If you are born as last child(only male), you automatically become the head of the family(olori ebi). It is a taboo for men to buy goods in market(local), my dad once got insulted for degrading his manliness by a woman. If I begin to list the advantages that the male has, my phone's ink will dry up. Though, YORUBA is considerably fear to women if we are to justapose MALE and female.

A male child is only olori ebi because the women marry out and take on other men's names. But the only son will respect his older sisters. In fact they are like his mother's. The men don't go to market because women are the ones that go and buy and sell. While men farm and bring produce home. So women know better about the worth of things and know how to haggle better. Ask your father if culturally a child is not a child. I know nuclear families that had just 1 female child and they were content. This female child is probably in her 70's with the father loving her with love of 10kids. Yoruba parents also bequeath property to their female children. Even my great great grand father did this. We are talking 1800's.

This male vs women supremacy came with foreign cultures of Christianity and Islam as those were the cultures of the Jews and Muslims. In fact middle easterner's don't see women as more than vessel's to breed even till this day and age. Their culture sees women as below men, and this translated into religion. African culture does not see women as below men at all. I mean, men worship female gods in Yoruba culture. Look at Christianity and Islam, women play a very secondary role if not distant role in almost all the stories. Even Mary Na manage manage den dey use mention her. It's only Catholicism that even recognizes her. With Judaism, den never born that woman wey den go worship.

Each gender had their roles quite alright, but it did not mandate a slave master relationship at all. It was not strange to see a woman having kids with different father's. Because they mostly found new husbands if they were unhappy or widowed. I read in Igbo culture a woman can leave her husband and if not divorced can have children by other men, and those children bear the original husband's names. It is also a fact women would be allowed to air their views and even riot if they were not heard.