cococandy:
And funny enough it is now seen as african tradition. With any woman who believes in self actualization and freedom tagged 'westernized'

It is only convenient for the men. Humans are greedy. If I was a man I will take advantage too. See the benefits they are reaping. I mean can you imagine a Queen Amina leading wars today See what religion has caused. They are even brainwashing people to blow themselves up. Young girls with bright future. Repression is a very dangerous thing.

Busybody2:
At topic/OP - YES, YES, YES & YES.





^{Stillwater/Stillfire I swear I ain't being lazy, I read all your 3 articles, all 76,000 words of them, I am just practising the "summary" lessons you taught me when you were my English Teacher eons ago}

Hahaha busybody is this not like your 1000th reincarnation?
Yes o summary. No be me write the articles now, you know if it were me it won't pass 5 lines. So continue to learn under my tutelage.
Anyway Happy new year.

damiso:
Lovely topic Stillfire(by the way I loved your other name Stillwater still waters run deep if that was you )....

The historical angle Is very informative.Its truly not our culture to have heavily dependent women.In Yoruba language there is even a derogatory term for a woman who relies on her husband for everything financially (I don't neccesarily always agree with how it's used though esp by one uncle dayokanu like that ) it's called alabodo( feed so you can sleep with).I grew up around very very industrious bold independent women who accomplished a lot both in business and career so I have never really lived or experienced a person being denied the ability to achieve her potentials cos she is a woman.I agree that's my reality though and might not be fair to think some other women or girl children did or do not have to battle such prejudices.

Yup I'm Stillwater! Still waters indeed run deeeeep. Someone once accused me of being another moniker called Toothpaste, rotflmao . And I'm thinking I will go from a classic name like stillwater to toothpaste? lol.

Nonso23:


No I don't believe it. Africans of today differ very greatly from Africans of 3 or more generations ago.
Africans today combat the unstable belief system that is as confusing as the word itself. We have learnt that a lot of our practices are evil that our fore fathers are cavemen without any sense of organization. We have learned that the only route to progress is the western way. Our fore fathers never had to confront these conflicting ideologies. I think we have earned the right to be confused but not for too long.

Your argument is valid if we were to agree to practice our culture in its purest form

More like a case Lagos in CNN and Lagos in real life.
We Africans should define ourselves until then we will keep believing all the west cooks up.

At this rate I don't mind going back just to deal with the avalanche of terrible husbands we have in the society today.
On purest form, I don't even think we can describe Igbo tradition for example in terms of pure, because Igbo tradition itself is not stagnant, it evolves according to the times. When the Igbo feels something has become irrelevant or redundant, they move on.

Nonso23:


Polygamy and other things we call vices today were not the fault of men the society of old tolerated it. Our mothers were submissive and not doormats. Submissive did not and does not connote stupid and dumb.
What do you expect when African history was documented mostly by Europeans ?
The few indigenous ones are not even 1/100 times as popular.

We cannot isolate ourselves but we can choose what we accept into our system. We need to keep a lot of our culture. The beautiful aspects are too many and colorful to be called 'some'.
We need to reinvent ourselves by ourselves by ourselves. We are an intelligent people.

So much have been eroded by the culture. Our clothing most especially. That aspect we cannot change instantly unfortunately.

I'm christian but I do not discriminate against any other religion most especially when I barely understand them.

I remember reading somewhere on a particular group of women that why they were not adverse to polygamy was that it allowed them (women) to pursue their careers while there was someone to take care of the home. I can't seem it find the piece at the moment, if I do I'll post it.

Stillfire:


At this rate I don't mind going back just to deal with the avalanche of terrible husbands we have in the society today.
On purest form, I don't even think we can describe Igbo tradition for example in terms of pure, because Igbo tradition itself is not stagnant, it evolves according to the times. When the Igbo feels something has become irrelevant or redundant, they move on.

Very true.

pickabeau1:


I will have ignored this crap but for the fact that some some simpleton may believe and continue to propagate this crap

I have no girlfriend and it is saddening that supporting aisha2 with her charity work is being misconstrued as an opportunity for free coochie.

Tragic

Hmmmmmm

baby124:

A male child is only olori ebi because the women marry out and take on other men's names. But the only son will respect his older sisters. In fact they are like his mother's. The men don't go to market because women are the ones that go and buy and sell. While men farm and bring produce home. So women know better about the worth of things and know how to haggle better. Ask your father if culturally a child is not a child. I know nuclear families that had just 1 female child and they were content. This female child is probably in her 70's with the father loving her with love of 10kids. Yoruba parents also bequeath property to their female children. Even my great great grand father did this. We are talking 1800's.

This male vs women supremacy came with foreign cultures of Christianity and Islam as those were the cultures of the Jews and Muslims. In fact middle easterner's don't see women as more than vessel's to breed even till this day and age. Their culture sees women as below men, and this translated into religion. African culture does not see women as below men at all. I mean, men worship female gods in Yoruba culture. Look at Christianity and Islam, women play a very secondary role if not distant role in almost all the stories. Even Mary Na manage manage den dey use mention her. It's only Catholicism that even recognizes her. With Judaism, den never born that woman wey den go worship.

Each gender had their roles quite alright, but it did not mandate a slave master relationship at all. It was not strange to see a woman having kids with different father's. Because they mostly found new husbands if they were unhappy or widowed. I read in Igbo culture a woman can leave her husband and if not divorced can have children by other men, and those children bear the original husband's names. It is also a fact women would be allowed to air their views and even riot if they were not heard.

I still vehemently reject that women were neglected and religated to the background in OT & NT. You said because christianity does not worship women as gods(ELOHIM JESUS AND HOLYSPIRIT ARE NOT MEN, RATHER WE WERE CREATED IN THEIR IMAGE) we are sexist. We have Hannah, Racheal, Ruth, Sarah, Mariam, so many of them. Women also are many in the NT, get one and read but two were most important. 1) The adultrous woman, whom Jesus saved from being killed, a situation still punished by death or severe beating in Arab till today. With these scene alone, JESUS(peace and glory be unto HIM) fought for the better treatment of women, a thing islam can't tolerate.
The second being the woman by the pond, who chatted like mates with Christ, even while reading, you could feel how happy the woman was that she even forgot about the primary reason she was there. Even his disciples who were at that time novice marveled
Not to talk about St. Paul(peace be unto him) who encouraged monogamy and also encouraged men to have unconditional love for their family(even to laying his life for his wife.)
As for Yoruba and their percieved view of women, I will rather tag it as equity(equal treatment.) It doesn't take a rational mind to know that men are better viewed in the society. In fact I've watched movies that somehow with the Yoruba wisdom of speech brushed women aside. We all know equality today in the west is a disaster, women would have moved further if they fought for equity.
Nevertheless, I would not claim that your points are logical, because until I knew about feminism, I never really thought about the differences btw men and women, though I knew it existed, the society must have been favourable to bridge this gap. I think you sound more like a traditional lady, who respects traditional roles and still thinks women should have better roles like their mothers had before thd coming of west(not christianity), this view I welcome. Pardon if mistakes exist cos I've got no time to edit.

Nonso23:

Very valid reason going by their times. I haven't come across that one before though but it make a lot of sense. If you do please post it.
I do know that women were even allowed to take wives on behalf of their husbands for reasons ranging from childbearing, extra hands on the farm, caring for the home, etc.

I could only find a wikipedia link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Nigeria

For example, a feminist meeting in Ibadan came out against polygamy and then was soundly criticized by market women, who said they supported the practice because it allowed them to pursue their trading activities and have the household looked after at the same time. Research in the north indicated that many women opposed the practice, and tried to keep bearing children to stave off a second wife's entry into the household. Although women's status would undoubtedly rise, for the foreseeable future Nigerian women lacked the opportunities of men.

moca:
Exactly @ baby124.
Religion nailed especially early religious indoctrination nailed most women to d ground permanently.

Women r now seen as second class citizens.
How many female VCs have we ever had in our universities?
I remembered then in school, ikejiani Clarke fought tooth and nail to be d vc, for where.
Funny,fellow ladies blackmailed her.

Ngozi iweala was able to go that far cos she wasn't in nigeria.
How many female directors has she'll, exxon mobil,chevron etc produced?
In d pharm world, had late Dora not backed this emzor woman despite all d negativities and blackmail, she would have folded her company like many before her has done.

Let's be truthful, women r expected to attain a certain level and stop.

But women r gradually pushing it. It wasn't easy then for women in d west.
We will get there.

It's not necessarily a bad thing that today's women aren't at the very top of their respective industries or firms, it is natural that things be so. When you factor in things like maternity leave amongst other factors, you begin to get the idea. Remember also, that in the "olden days" women had more flexible money-earning ventures. They didn't really need anyone to promote them at their market stalls or cloth-weaving canopies. They simply went about their business at their own pace, and once they were strong enough, they really got at it.

Like Nonso23 said, we should define what we want as a society ourselves borrowing from our own rich history. All societies evolve, ours and the oyinbos'. The problem is we have left our own development and are foolishly copying what is apparently failing for them.

This is for the buy red pants and bra crew when a husband is obviously maltreating his wife...

http://www.artsrn.ualberta.ca/amcdouga/Hist247/winter%202010/additional%20rdgs/sitting_on_man.pdf

"Sitting on a man" or a woman, boycotts and strikes were the women's
main weapons. To "sit on" or "make war on" a man involved gathering at his
compound, sometimes late at night, dancing, singing scurrilous songs which
detailed the women's grievances against him and often called his manhood into
question, banging on his hut with the pestles women used for pounding yams,
and perhaps demolishing his hut or plastering it with mud and roughing him up
a bit. A man might be sanctioned in this way for mistreating his wife, for
violating the women's market rules, or for letting his cows eat the women's crops.
The women would stay at his hut throughout the day, and late into the night,
if necessary, until he repented and promised to mend his ways.24 Although this
could hardly have been a pleasant experience for the offending man, it was
considered legitimate and no man would consider intervening.

In tackling men as a group, women used boycotts and strikes. Harris
describes a case in which, after repeated requests by the women for the paths to
the market to be cleared (a male responsibility), all the women refused to cook
for their husbands until the request was carried out.25 For this boycott to be
effective, all women had to cooperate so that men could not go and eat with their
brothers. Another time the men of a village decided that the women should stop
trading at the more distant markets from which they did not return until late at
night because the men feared that the women were having sexual relations with
men in those towns. The women, however, refused to comply since opportunity
to buy in one market and sell in another was basic to profit-making. Threats of
collective retaliation were enough to make the men capitulate.

http://www.artsrn.ualberta.ca/amcdouga/Hist247/winter%202010/additional%20rdgs/sitting_on_man.pdf


A woman could also bring complaints about her husband to the mikiri.
If most of the women agreed that the husband was at fault, they would
collectively support her. They might send spokeswomen to tell the husband to
apologize and to give her a present, and, if he was recalcitrant they might "sit on"
him. They might also act to protect a right of wives. Harris describes a case of
women's solidarity to maintain sexual freedom:
The men... were very angry because their wives were openly having
relations with their lovers. The men... met and passed a law to the effect
that every woman... should renounce her lover and present a goat to her
husband as a token of repentance... The women held... secret meetings
and, a few mornings later, they went to a neighboring [village], leaving
all but suckling children behind them... [The men] endured it for a day
and a half and then they went to the women and begged their return...
[T]he men gave [the women] one goat and apologized informally and
formally.27
Thus through mikiri women acted to force a resolution of their individual and
collective grievances.


Lord have mercy, these women were gangsters o! No wonder African men readily accepted the colonialists way.

Stillfire:
This is for the buy red pants and bra crew when a husband is obviously maltreating his wife...

http://www.artsrn.ualberta.ca/amcdouga/Hist247/winter%202010/additional%20rdgs/sitting_on_man.pdf

"Sitting on a man" or a woman, boycotts and strikes were the women's
main weapons. To "sit on" or "make war on" a man involved gathering at his
compound, sometimes late at night, dancing, singing scurrilous songs which
detailed the women's grievances against him and often called his manhood into
question, banging on his hut with the pestles women used for pounding yams,
and perhaps demolishing his hut or plastering it with mud and roughing him up
a bit. A man might be sanctioned in this way for mistreating his wife, for
violating the women's market rules, or for letting his cows eat the women's crops.
The women would stay at his hut throughout the day, and late into the night,
if necessary, until he repented and promised to mend his ways.24 Although this
could hardly have been a pleasant experience for the offending man, it was
considered legitimate and no man would consider intervening.

In tackling men as a group, women used boycotts and strikes. Harris
describes a case in which, after repeated requests by the women for the paths to
the market to be cleared (a male responsibility), all the women refused to cook
for their husbands until the request was carried out.25 For this boycott to be
effective, all women had to cooperate so that men could not go and eat with their
brothers. Another time the men of a village decided that the women should stop
trading at the more distant markets from which they did not return until late at
night because the men feared that the women were having sexual relations with
men in those towns. The women, however, refused to comply since opportunity
to buy in one market and sell in another was basic to profit-making. Threats of
collective retaliation were enough to make the men capitulate.

How did we go from This to red bra and black pants?

Stillfire:
Another time the men of a village decided that the women should stop
trading at the more distant markets from which they did not return until late at
night because the men feared that the women were having sexual relations with
men in those towns. The women, however, refused to comply since opportunity
to buy in one market and sell in another was basic to profit-making. Threats of
collective retaliation were enough to make the men capitulate.

What?!

You mean these women weren't submissive?!

Stillfire:
http://www.artsrn.ualberta.ca/amcdouga/Hist247/winter%202010/additional%20rdgs/sitting_on_man.pdf


A woman could also bring complaints about her husband to the mikiri.
If most of the women agreed that the husband was at fault, they would
collectively support her. They might send spokeswomen to tell the husband to
apologize and to give her a present, and, if he was recalcitrant they might "sit on"
him. They might also act to protect a right of wives. Harris describes a case of
women's solidarity to maintain sexual freedom:
The men... were very angry because their wives were openly having
relations with their lovers. The men... met and passed a law to the effect
that every woman... should renounce her lover and present a goat to her
husband as a token of repentance... The women held... secret meetings
and, a few mornings later, they went to a neighboring [village], leaving
all but suckling children behind them... [The men] endured it for a day
and a half and then they went to the women and begged their return...
[T]he men gave [the women] one goat and apologized informally and
formally.27
Thus through mikiri women acted to force a resolution of their individual and
collective grievances.


Lord have mercy, these women were gangsters o! No wonder African men readily accepted the colonialists way.

Choi!!

bukatyne:

How did we go from This to red bra and black pants?

ileobatojo:

What?!
You mean these women weren't submissive?!

Buhahaha, submission is a religious construct.

The colonialists changed our curricula and the men ran along with it.

From the opening article:

The curricula emphasised religious instruction and clerica! skills for boys and domestic science for girls. Technological and scientific based education was not encouraged. The curricula for girls enabled them to become good housewives, rather than income earners.

Notice the words domestic science, so apparently the African woman was not domesticated aka submissive to be housewives.

bukatyne:


I hope and pray it works

Ladies who equate equality to be loud, rude, brash or not changing pampers or cooking are really not helping matters.

MarvelousGod

Stillfire:


As Kanwulia would say, those are ghetto feminists!

That madam is really funny and her mode of typing is...

Yea but some guys these days and the head and neck crew would rather convince young girls that it is african culture when in fact it is not.

Truth is no one can actually define african culture when Nigeria alone has a thousand different practices.

Stillfire:




Buhahaha, submission is a religious construct.

The colonialists changed our curricula and the men ran along with it.

From the opening article:

The curricula emphasised religious instruction and clerica! skills for boys and domestic science for girls. Technological and scientific based education was not encouraged. The curricula for girls enabled them to become good housewives, rather than income earners.

Notice the words domestic science, so apparently the African woman was not domesticated aka submissive to be housewives.

Nonso23:


Lolz I'm just seeing this now.
I can assure you with all confidence that these kinds of girls will not even attract the gaze of any NL family section male.

On the second part. If you meant NL feminism which equals: shunning responsibilities, being unnecessarily obnoxious, thinking that the man's duty is to please a woman all day everyday and man hating then i agree with you 100%.
No sane man would want to end up with such a woman.

No man would want his daughter denied of basic opportunities because she is a girl and thankfully Nigeria is way ahead in that department. We even have quotas for women in education, politics and in many corporations there are gender quotas in place - ie whether she deserves the position or not, put her there because she is a woman doesn't matter if a man is more qualified.

Feminism has outlived its importance. It is just another tool to satisfy the narcissistic tendencies of most women.

Nobody needs feminism. We need real education, especially in the Northern part of Nigeria. Teach people civility and respect for the next person regardless of gender and the problem of the perceived marginalization will end. Spread modern day feminism and hate will fester. Nobody can thrive in hate.

Men are not responsible for the current position of women in the grand scheme of things. There is no recorded historical evidence of men rounding up all the women and enslaving them. We both started off together - arguing along the tenets of evolution I even dare say the woman started slightly earlier- we got here because we kept advancing society and shaping the perspectives of its members.
Men created formal education and just like today's view of women about soccer, they weren't to be bothered about it. Fast forward a few centuries the story has been thwarted to mean men denied women of education and so on.

Or is it that the woman unconsciously allows the activities of the man define what is important or not to the society?

We can't hate women, we are incapable of that even. We just strike back very hard when hit. Blame biology, fight or flight??
We choose Fight

I would like to move this conversation to this thread.

I can't believe you wrote that (especially coming from an Igbo man) knowing about the historical emphasis of colonialism and what it did to female political structures in Africa. Reading ardently on Igbo women history, it is sufficient to say that the woman did not allow the activities of the man to define what is important to society or not. In fact more often than not the women consciously renegaded by instigating boycotts, and riots against policies they were not in agreement with.

About the lack of confidence of today's girls where it came from...
This thread is sufficient enough to highlight how the British purposely restricted business, science courses for males only, prioritizing home economics for females and using Christianity to dampen the spirit of African womanhood, same way they use Christianity to the black slaves to make sure they were subservient to their masters, since Europeans were coming from cultures women were regarded as minors or legal non-beings.

cc Radoillo
ChinenyeN
Odumchi

Community Development in Nigeria: Impact of Women. A Study of Onicha Local Government Area

The role of women in community development had been a controversial issue over the year. Nduekwe (2005) stated that with fewer people living in poverty and greater levels of food security can be achieved only through realizing the goal of empowering women.

http://www.scharticles.com/community-development-in-nigeria-impact-of-women/

The Role of Rural Women Farmers on the Economic Development of Ondo State

the role of women considered covers their activities in crop, fishery and live stock section of the economy as well as those of processing and distribution. According to the economic commission for Africa (ECA, 1976 and 1977) 60%-80% of the labour in the African agriculture is provided by women...

http://www.scharticles.com/the-role-of-rural-women-farmers-on-the-economic-development-of-ondo-state/

Role of Women Structures in Community Development (A Study of Eha-Alumona in Nsukka Local Government Area)

This research will be of significance to the women organizations and other similar organizations in the community, local governments, state and beyond.

http://www.scharticles.com/role-of-women-structures-in-community-development-2/