malvisguy212:
do atheists like evil? You say no atheist is linking God to evil? Here what pleatton say in response to an2lect who quote from the book of isaiah say God created evil :
plaetton:
Lol.
Nice of you to admit that your
imaginary moral law giver is
schizophrenic.
Now, what kind of MORAL laws
should Anyone expect from a bible-
certified schizophrenic.?
Seriously.

You christians make that assertion by quoting Isaiah 45:7
Just like i have seen you quote many times and An2elect did here too
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make
peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these
things.
So why blame an atheist for using your own words hewn from ur own
bible against you the same way we use quran against it.

plaetton:


Gosh!

Pls read you post again, and see if you will learn something.

johnydon22:


And you forgot to mention that An2elect quoted Isaiah 45:7 and plaetton used it against her just like i mentioned to you in my post.

So you see? plaetton only used her words against her and was not trying to attribute evil or anything at all to an abstract ideas such as a god.



So for the lower part of your post i would appreciate it if you discuss with me based on Your Own Analogies, not copy and paste other peoples ideas, so that when i address it i will be sure am addressing your own personal assertion

malvisguy212:
the kind of evil you are indicating, I will never agree with it, if evil is base on human understanding, no one will feel guilty of doing evil, hitler did not just woke up and kill 6million Jews, but if you still see it as a concept base on his own understanding, I will not argue it with you .can I ask you a question? Is your mum a prayerful christian?

malvisguy212:
the kind of evil you are indicating, I will never agree with it, if evil is base on human understanding, no one will feel guilty of doing evil, hitler did not just woke up and kill 6million Jews, but if you still see it as a concept base on his own understanding, I will not argue it with you .can I ask you a question? Is your mum a prayerful christian?

johnydon22:

k

malvisguy212:
hope you are not offended? You really need her prayer.

malvisguy212:
do atheists like evil? You say no atheist is linking God to evil?[size=3pt][s] Here what pleatton say in response to an2lect who quote from the book of isaiah say God created evil :
plaetton:
Lol.
Nice of you to admit that your
imaginary moral law giver is
schizophrenic.
Now, what kind of MORAL laws
should Anyone expect from a bible-
certified schizophrenic.?
Seriously.[/s]

Beckwith argues that a non-personal
ground of an objective moral law that
transcends human subjectivity "is
inadequate in explaining the guilt and
shame one feels when one violates the
moral law. For it is persons, not rules or
principles, that elicit in us feelings of
guilt and shame." [15] As Paul Copan
asks: "Why should we feel guilt towards
abstract moral principles?"[16] Since it
would be inappropriate to feel guilt or
shame before an abstract (impersonal)
moral principle, and since it is
appropriate to feel guilt and shame
before the objective moral law, that
moral law cannot be an abstract moral
principle. In other words, objective moral
values must be ontologically grounded in
a transcendent personality before whom
it is appropriate to feel moral guilt (it's
worth noting that the possibility of
objective forgiveness for moral guilt is
equally dependent upon the moral law
having a personal ground).
These four arguments form a powerful
cumulative case for the first premise of
the moral argument.[/size]
http://www.bethinking.org/morality/can-moral-objectivism-do-without-god

plaetton:


You guys are really really schizophrenic.
Seriously! I am neither joking nor trying to insult Anyone.
Let me give a very clear example of why I say so.

The entire thrust of this op is that is MORALS are good, and as such, had to have been dictated by a GOOD MORAL LAW Giver, presumably Yahweh/god.

Then, we present biblical evidence that Yahweh, the moral law giver, did many many evil, Non-Good, Non-Moral acts.

Then malvisguy212 and come back to say that human moral laws (given by yahweh /god) are not good enough to evaluate the goodness or lack thereof, of yahweh god.

This a clear and simple repudiation of the op, and clearly supports what we non goddists are saying,.. Mainly, that human morality has evolved to cater to and suite human interactions. Like wise, the morality of yahweh and whatever gods would have similarly evolved to suite the interactions of gods.

Yahweh couldnt have given nor dictated what he didn't have in the first place.

Pls malvisguy212, read your own posts to learn more about yourself and your disjointed beliefs.

DProDG:


Dear malvisguy212, quit being dishonest and fallacious. You opened a thread on a similar topic and then ran away when you were asked to defend yourself and were confronted with questions. Now you've gone ahead to repeat the same things you were corrected on.

At least, I'm glad you've learnt to give sources.

johnydon22:

K
Hope you don't mind but you need books.

malvisguy212:
God did no evil, is just that God who design this moral law will not allow human to break it easily,holiness is among the nature of God and we are created in His image, God will not allow us to easily sin, but because of freewill, you are to chose between good and evil, those who chose good will be allow in God own universe (heaven) and thoes who chose evil will not be allow in this new universe, meaning the devil will take them with him to his destination.

If you want to present evidence, make sure you provide the WHOLE truth, you did not provide evidence that God is evil rather you quote were God carry out his action.the major religion belief in the stone age is the worshippers of the moon gods infacte this people you accused God of killing is far more greater than the isrealite in time of artillery. But God was with the isrealite. Go and read the bible about the isrealite beginning with the exedus erra, as a matter of fact, when the Jews were in bondage in Egypt, God did not just go and wipe the Egyptian out, He only say"let my people go"if you continue reading when the isrealite were freed, they were in the desert when the amalikites attack them, the amalikites are mighty than the isrealite, they kill the Jews and take all there food, that is were the problems began and other nation joined the amalikites. But God was with them. So God destroying this people were justified, infacte God waited until the time of Joshua when he carry out his judgment he judge the amalikites cannanite e.t.c back then in genesis. They have time to repent but did not.

malvisguy212:
thank you for your gentile respond, to me your question do not make sense. Did you expect me to write an example of Good? Or just say helping the needy is example of good, so what your points?

DProDG:


Oh really? Well I'm glad we are on the same page then.

Why then do you support the idea of objective morality that implies 'good' is an entity?

malvisguy212:
pleatton and DProDG you guys a very very ignorance and bias there is no single truth in you guys.

malvisguy212:

Morality is unchanging. There is a right and wrong;good and evil.as an atheist , how did you got the concept of Good and evil?

malvisguy212:

There could only be ONE logical explanation: The universe is moral. Not only does morality prove God's existence, but it reveals the kind of God He is.

malvisguy212:

You see, if there is no God, there is no right and wrong, good and evil.

malvisguy212:

The only ethical system for atheists are those that are created by society. For an atheist, it is only wrong to kill if society makes it illegal. For them, it's not wrong simply because it is intrinsically wrong. It is wrong because
society says it's wrong.

johnydon22:

Good is used to represent an action or event favourable to human survival and societal well being, that is how the concept of good was derived.

Evil is an action or event that is a detriment to societal well being and unfavorable to human survival and increases suffering. . . That is what is termed evil, this is exactly how the concept of Good/evil are conceived[/b]
They negate each other.
And you call this logical? . . . Did the definition of logical change of recent
.

malvisguy212:
pleatton and DProDG you guys a very very ignorance and bias there is no single truth in you guys.

Morality is unchanging. There is a right and wrong;good and evil.as an atheist , how did you got the concept of Good and evil?There could only be ONE logical explanation: The universe is moral. Not only does morality prove God's existence, but it reveals the kind of God He is. You see, if there is no God, there is no right and wrong, good and evil. The only ethical system for atheists are those that are created by society. For an atheist, it is only wrong to kill if society makes it illegal. For them, it's not wrong simply because it is intrinsically wrong. It is wrong because
society says it's wrong.

DProDG:


Is this supposed to be the answer to the questions I asked? Bro, no offence but you meet every definition of daft. All the way from you own thread to the beginning of this one, Johnydon22, others and I have explained clearly, in detail the concept of subjective morality - the selfish gene, utilitarianism, empathy but here you go repeating the same thing and creating the same strawman.

You say "morality is unchanging" but as a Christian, you'll be the first to say the laws of the OT have been abandoned. Oxymoron much?

Two things. I don't mind being corrected or being called out but I'll appreciate it if while being a hypocrite, you can at least quote me and point out where I said something 'ignorant', 'bias' or 'dishonest'.

malvisguy212:
you say good is used to represent an action that favour man, if what is bad and human called it good, how can you explained it? For atheists, ethics keep evolving; however, morality does not. Right is always right. For what you and your atheists friends are implying here, there is a GREAT EVIL if mankind will adopt your explanation.
Let us do this, I want to show you were you are dead wrong,very wrong indeed!!
the Nazis gave orders calling for the "final solution." This law gave officials legal authority to kill the people in the
concentration camps. Now was this law
evil? Was killing people in the camps
evil?
Answer this question and see how satan is manipulating you to called good bad and bad good, I know you cannot answer it.
Isaiah say in isaiah 5:20;
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Thousands of isaiah prophecy come to pass, I think this one also is coming to pass.

malvisguy212:
you say good is used to represent an action that favour man, if what is bad and human called it good, how can you explained it? For atheists, ethics keep evolving; however, morality does not. Right is always right. For what you and your atheists friends are implying here, there is a GREAT EVIL if mankind will adopt your explanation.

malvisguy212:

Let us do this, I want to show you were you are dead wrong,very wrong indeed!!

the Nazis gave orders calling for the "final solution." This law gave officials legal authority to kill the people in the
concentration camps. Now was this law
evil? Was killing people in the camps
evil?

malvisguy212:

Answer this question and see how satan is manipulating you to called good bad and bad good, I know you cannot answer it.

malvisguy212:

Isaiah say in isaiah 5:20;
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Thousands of isaiah prophecy come to pass, I think this one also is coming to pass.

johnydon22:
. . Can you just represent this in plain simple english, i dont seem to understand the rambling.

Let me define morality for you again An action or event that decreases human suffering and/or improves societal well being, justice, equality and freedom.

Immorality is an action that increases Individual human suffering, and is a detriment to societal well being; justice, equality and freedom

[size=20]Clearly the Nazi actions increases the sufferings of the victims, and also is a detriment to societal well being, a detriment to the justice,freedom and equality of the victims there for this action is pure immoral.. . It is evil.. as you can see it falls on the scope of an immoral act so it is pure unadulterated evil[/size] And please i wouldn't want you to drag me back again with a similar daft question
I just did and i also gave reasons why it is evil...Unlike you who cant


Who exactly is calling evil good here... The one who thinks a man burning his child as a sacrifice is good or the one who says its pure evil. . . Really you always amuse me with your childish misconceptions and laughable assertions.

malvisguy212:
this is how you explained good and evil;

"Good is used to represent an action
or event favourable to human
survival and societal well being, that
is how the concept of good was
derived.
Evil is an action or event that is a
detriment to societal well being and
unfavorable to human survival and
increases suffering. . . That is what is
termed evil, this is exactly how the
concept of Good/evil are conceived"

In your explanation of good , the key word is "FAVOURABLE" and your explanation indicate evil is subjective,right ? Ok!!! What if the thing that favour man is killing, will you called kill good since it is a concept and this concept is favourable to man? I even gave you an example of the nazis who gave oder to kill, meaning they legalise killing, will you called the law good?

And to your explanation of evil, why do you called it evil? Is because the society say it is evil,right? For an atheist, it is only wrong to kill if society makes it illegal. is gay wrong? To you who live in Nigeria, yes because it is illegal in Nigeria but to thoes who live in a country were gay is allow it is not a bad thing. Right? Ok!! Who told you gay is wrong?

johnydon22:


Just have to copy my answer to ansas and give to u...Cus you are quite slow in comprehension and love straw man so.much.

Lets start by defining morality;
A moral act is an act that decreases individual human suffering and/or betters societal well being, freedom, equality and justice.

An immoral act is one that increases individual human suffering and is a detriment to to societal well being, freedom, equality or justice.

Both are human concepts clear depicts favourable or unfavourable actions.

Good action or event is one that coincides with the definition of morality. . It favours societal well being, and decreases suffering.

A bad event or action is one that negates the concept of good; it is unfavourable to societal well being and increases human suffering.

So this two are dependent on each other for meaning

The purposes of good(morality)/evil(immorality) is dependent on the concept.. from my answer to 1 and 2 it is easy to deduct that;

the purpose of Good is; To be favourable to human/societal/enviromental well being and minimizes suffering.

While the purpose of bad exactly negates the concept given to the purpose of good.


Same perceptive method. you differentiate colours by optical perception while the human concept of good and evil is perceived by empathical perception which still involves optical, emotional perception etc... i believe an example is needed.
Giving food to a hungry man by every definition decreases the suffering of that hungry man therefore its clear this act falls on the scope of a moral act.

while stealing food from that hungry man increases his suffering because you have just subjected him to hunger. . this act is clear negates the former therefore its distinguishable.

Like other answers above shows; Good and evil are both human concepts tagged to favourable or unfavourable actions. . . Since these are human concepts it is therefore right to deduct humans invent these moral laws to suite the concepts of good and evil.

It is quite simple, since these are human concepts the values too are human concepts too...
So i wonder what you mean by moral giver when morality being a human concept depicts humans perceived it, therefore gave it meaning. this means humans gave these laws which most of the times are subjective and about accountability still boils down to humans; try robbing a bank and see

e.g; In the Jewish society, a law given by the jewish deity stipulates death sentence for a bride found not to be a virgin, why are you not following this law now?

It is very clear that this law whereas masked as a moral law is very far from being moral. and that concept of morality as depicted by the jews surely goes against this modern day concept and that is why i dont see you following it.

How can gay be wrong/right when it doesn't hurt u or anyone, Whats your business with what people do with themselves in bedroom as long as it has nothing to do with me, it doesn't concern me.

An2elect2:


Lol, you dont know God then. You must be one of those jolly jolly Christians. You need to know the God that you are serving o!

Take this,

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make
peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these
things.

Look at the f close to my monicker

keenn:



I know there are Deities/God/god that people worship, I av being introduced to the one Christians worship and was also told that the muslims worship somewhat similar.

By virtue of internet/mass media/internet/academic pursuit, I also got to know that the Hindus, Taoist, shintoist, confucanist...have different concept to this/these God/gods/god thing.

Well, I am aware of this concept of God/god but I do not know for sure which is the real deal.

The 'know for sure' as used up there refers how sure we are that stone doesn't float on water.

You can enlighten me more An2elect how you know