TV01:
Stilly, Stilly, Stilly, a good effort, but not one that convinces me there is any merit in feminism.

Firstly, you have hared totally down the wrong track with your notions of chivalry. As the definition you posted describes it is a code of behaviour derived from moral, societal and religious codes - all of which recognise the inhenret difference between male and female, hence affording them the courtesy chivalry demands.

While chivalry is a European word, the notion of courtesy and protection towrds women is rooted in all men and cultures - even if it's form is different.

Most ironically feminism drives out chivalrous practice in men by it's strident insitence on equality/sameness.


And no one has said the roles make either superior have they. They are just different and clearly aligned to our complimetary natures. And pray tell how interdependence is feminist?


Oh please! "subservient"? Which religion do you speak of, I can hold brief for Christianity and confidently say "it aint so Joe"


Nope, not a hierarchy, no notions of superior or inferior, but order and harmony. You are seeing things here.


It doesn't have to. These are secondary "feelgood" or beta traits in the male-female dynamic. Non of these in and of themselves will attract you to a man or make you consider him as your husband. These are after the deal has been done. And African men demonstrate chivalry in a way African women understand and respond to.


I answered this in opening.


TV

TV, TV, TV, if you men do not deem any role as superior or inferior, how many Nigerian men are willingly take on the so called 'feminine' roles in marriage? How many Nigerian men can wash their wives underwear, just the way she washes his? How many Nigerian men are willing to take on home chores? How many Nigerian men are comfortable cooking while their wives watch TV in the presence of their parents? I'm sure you are shivering in your pants by the mere thought. Female breadwinners are still finding it very hard to get it into the skulls of obstinate husbands that they should at least take care of the home. The Nigerian male believe those roles are inferior to a man. Again let's not feign ignorance here.

On chivalry... if you had followed my various posts, I also alluded to that I'm not interested in that european chivalry. I find it weird African women claiming they don't want to lose chivalry because of feminism. I begin to ask myself which chivalry are we talking about here. Where we come from women serve the men. Culturally women are to open doors for men and go on her knees and say olowo ori mi, se o ti de. A wife is supposed to address her husband's people with daddy, mummy, uncle or aunty, now that itself is not bad, but to the younger ones as well. You are Yoruba o, don't pretend here. Anyway I have shown what chivalry means to the Europeans, it's left for you to list what being chivalrous means to the African man. Who is the African gentleman? Also notice in the European setting as well not all men could claim to be gentlemen. So what qualities separate from the average Nigerian man to that of the Nigerian gentleman. I need a detailed, well constructed list of what constitutes as the African gentleman. Oya start listing... I need about 50 points... Nigerian male code of conduct 101...tehehehe.
I have one already...
1) He pounds the yam for his wife ... perfect chivalry there lol

bukatyne:
How does equal rights negate male leadership? Doesn't your wife have equal rights with you? Or does equal rights appear when it suits the discuss? I remembered it was one of the points you used to counter polygamy.

"Rights" are not something I actually think about, or consider the way to frame marriage. But no, my wife does not have equal rights with me - due to the fact that I have veto power .

Polygamy denies women equal agency as it's not just the two of them in the union. Please read my "educative posts" more closely. Read them repeatedly like you are preparing for an exam !

bukatyne:
Sorry, not my business what feminist thought-leaders think of marriage. Feminism has been defined and I agree with it and identify myself as someone who has such beliefs. Whatever anyone thinks is what they think. My church has an idea of what a home should look like; it is their business. That is why it is a thougt/idea. Even if it is a commandment, no one can force me to obey.

Which is what I made clear to you in the first part of the post - feminism demands "equal rights" within marriage at it's core. The leaders are glaringly hostile towards it - even worse.

bukatyne:
1. I do not know what you mean by overall responsibility; yes I agree husbands are the leaders of their homes
2. Yes a woman does
3. I do not know what you mean by authority here
4. Yes and no
5. See Answer 1.
6. No

Authority is what headship implies. I'll go with your answers.

bukatyne:
Do you make this call even if it is something you have no idea about?

"Not knowing" does not mean I cannot probe and question or make a call based on my wifes superior knowledge or expertise. And if there is a valid consideration not satisfied, I can still veto.

bukatyne:
Even if you are making this call, how do you make it? Digging more merits for what you want to do? Looking at if it is critical to you or her or you just say, we are going my way because I am the head?

Please read the post fully. It is not necessarily about her or me, it's about us and our.

Feminisms basic mistake is that it's gynocentric. In claiming to seek equal rights in marriage, it has now weighted it against men. Effectively causing men to turn away - harming them both. Thinking holistically for the whole, benefits the individual, thinking selfishly for the individual harms the whole - damn I'm good !

bukatyne:
You have even answered part of my question. You go her way because it is more important to her; could it be that you make the last call because it is important to you or something you know well about and not necessarily because you are the head or sole authority (which obviously you are not)

I am the head and ultimate authority (leader), but not the sole authority as in "expert". Read my post. It pretty much covers everything. A manager at work does not have to have the most knowledge before he makes certain calls - and these may override someone with more technical or expert knowledge.

bukatyne:
If you do not find her position compelling... I like this your post; just like examination that has objective and theory parts; you keep dropping answers in one part of it.

You like all my submissions !
My helpmeet helps me. Or else what's the point? She brings all her resources to the table.

bukatyne:
Now I ask; if your wife's position is compelling, will you say that 'I am the head', I don't care about your suggestion/points and we go my way?

No, if my wife's position is compelling, I will say "I am the head, I think we should go with your very compelling idea. Well done mama "

bukatyne:
So when you are not welding this headship/leadership, what happens?

Merry-making & Mojo

bukatyne:
And of course, it is welded in your dreams and maybe on the bed

Asked and answered.

bukatyne:
If your wife is like the people who are turning the head to where the neck wants, you would probably be doing her wish the few times her points don't 'compel' you

Nope, I listen to her intently, but veto calls are made dispassionately. I'm a man.

bukatyne:
And I 100% bet that when you are even 'welding' it, it is with a soft voice and cunnily. Like my husband will say, 'I know how to get you to do what I want sometimes' and be 100% certain it is not by barking or authoritatively...

Those who truly possess and know how to wield authority do not confuse it with force and have no need to bark to wield it.

bukatyne:
I have and leadership in the home (Christian) is not like worldly leadership; it is by example and to serve. I learnt a number of excellent things etc. from my husband doing them to me. I see most reference to leaderships as a call for the husband to do has he likes (surely the things the wife cannot reciprocate).

Whatever the mis-application by people of the scripture, it does not warrant you resorting to the same tactics in reverse to correct. In the same vein, you misconcieved notions about authoritarian or dictatorial leadership do not colour it for all of us. I serve and set an exampe, I also lead. Don't cover-up the imperative to "lead".

I not only wield authority, I continually demonstate that I am worthy of it. I was not joking when I said that my wife implicitly trusts me. Even if not to make mistakes - I am not perfect - it's certainly to have our family' best interest at heart at all times.

bukatyne:
And one advise, stop painting yourself like a monster in a bid to show you are an 'authority welding husband'; you are not a picture for it.

You have the hang-up about authority and hence associate it with monstering. I am fine, as is my wife.

In all you have finally admitted that the husband leads - totally contrary to the feminsist position. So I have no qualms. You may have to explain yourself to FrancisTony, who believes it should be completely egalitarian !


TV

TV01:
Stilly, Stilly, Stilly, a good effort, but not one that convinces me there is any merit in feminism.

And no one has said the roles make either superior have they. They are just different and clearly aligned to our complimetary natures. And pray tell how interdependence is feminist?


Oh please! "subservient"? Which religion do you speak of, I can hold brief for Christianity and confidently say "it aint so Joe"

TV

How isn't interdependence feminist? In relationships, interdependence is the degree to which members of the group are mutually dependent on the others. No one is being made to look less or superior than the other. Is that not what feminism is all about?

What's the problem with the word Subservient? Is it not a synonym to submissiveness? Conforming to the will of authority?

pickabeau1:


Gosh..... your logic is astounding

Where is it said God is a man

The Bible says God is not a man that he should lie

You have a habit of making a point then railing off another set of points which have no bearing to the point.. choi... .. who spoke of white man now?

1. So if God is a He.. why is there a controversy of Him being made a she by the Watch group. see my posts above

I don't belong to their group.

It's their business not mine.

FrancisTony:

I don't belong to their group.

It's there business not mine.

Good.. so its concluded now that God is a HE

Stillfire:
How isn't interdependence feminist? In relationships, interdependence is the degree to which members of the group are mutually dependent on the others. No one is being made to look less or superior than the other. Is that not what feminism is all about?

Ironically, no matter what you claim, that's exactly what it isn't in practice. It denies interdependance in procreation for one - reproductive rights are arrogated to the woman, at the expense of the offspring or male.

And it has re-worked marriage /family law, so that it's now an unnatractive proposition for men. That is privilige and rights without responsibiity.

Stillfire:
What's the problem with the word Subservient? Is it not a synonym to submissiveness? Conforming to the will of authority?

Please read my post to Bukatyne above. The word "submissiveness" in Christian marital context means nothing like that.


TV

More popcorn, please

pickabeau1:

If chauvinists made God a HE
Accoding to your logic, Jesus is a chauvinist for referring to God as his Father.. Yes?

FrancisTony:

Why was Jerusalem referred as a mother?

Does that mean she's a full woman with breeast? NO

Father represents head of authority, and Yahweh sent Yeshua, hence calling God "father".

When I said FrancisTony has a problem, only coogar understands!

TV01:
In all you have finally admitted that the husband leads - totally contrary to the feminsist position. So I have no qualms. You may have to explain yourself to FrancisTony, who believes it should be completely egalitarian !


TV

One question for you; have you seen me dabble in marriage or advice any woman not to be submissive? NO! Well, if you've seen it, you can dig up the post.

Marriage should be built on a mutual understanding/agreement between the two sexes and they should do whatever rock thier boat.
No one has the right to call a man WEAK because she allows his wife to make her own decisions what shall it profit a man to go aggressive over petty things?.

I only venture in hypocrisy of men, gender chauvinism, female stigmatisation et al.
I have no business with feminism and submissive because i'm not a male.

I can decide to stay celibate and no one will kill me.

kaboninc:




When I said FrancisTony has a problem, only coogar understands!

As in eh

kaboninc:

When I said FrancisTony has a problem, only coogar understands!

You better go back to chasing Sambarry and numerous female Nairaland monikers.

Your promiscuous ilks aren't needed here.

.

standd:

Pls edit my name out of your post.

Done. Don't mind him.

Darkrebel666:


I never said it did

You did in your quint demonstration of how males are "more equal" than females due to their physical strength, mental fortification etc.

TV01:
"Rights" are not something I actually think about, or consider the way to frame marriage. But no, my wife does not have equal rights with me - due to the fact that I have veto power .Polygamy denies women equal agency as it's not just the two of them in the union. Please read my "educative posts" more closely. Read them repeatedly like you are preparing for an exam !

So it is now equal agency (meaning) and not equal rights?

TV01:
Which is what I made clear to you in the first part of the post - feminism demands "equal rights" within marriage at it's core. The leaders are glaringly hostile towards it - even worse.

I have equal rights in my marriage, no need demanding it I married well

TV01:
Authority is what headship implies. I'll go with your answers.

TV01:
"Not knowing" does not mean I cannot probe and question or make a call based on my wife's superior knowledge or expertise. And if there is a valid consideration not satisfied, I can still veto.

Na mouth you get.

TV01:
Please read the post fully. It is not necessarily about her or me, it's about us and our.

Feminisms basic mistake is that it's gynocentric. In claiming to seek equal rights in marriage, it has now weighted it against men. Effectively causing men to turn away - harming them both. Thinking holistically for the whole, benefits the individual, thinking selfishly for the individual harms the whole - damn I'm good !

If it is not about you or her, why is there no equal rights in your marriage? It is about you both abi?

I agree with you wholly that it is not about me or him, it is we, us, our family. Like I told DarkRebel, this is a forum for discussion so we jaw jaw about issues. You don't go about I have equal/lesser/more rights than you bla bla.

We put in all our resources and take decisions based on the reality on ground. I am assuming a healthy home and all indices are open to all stakeholders.

TV01:
I am the head and ultimate authority (leader), but not the sole authority as in "expert". Read my post. It pretty much covers everything. A manager at work does not have to have the most knowledge before he makes certain calls - and these may override someone with more technical or expert knowledge.

You run your house like your office? Those are two issues that does not gel

TV01:
You like all my submissions !

Dream on.

TV01:
My helpmeet helps me. Or else what's the point? She brings all her resources to the table. No, if my wife's position is compelling, I will say "I am the head, I think we should go with your very compelling idea. Well done mama "

Now this is interesting.

I think You are not sure Why the need for the applaud later, a soft landing?

I should open a church; I am a prophetess.

TV01:
Merry-making & Mojo

Asked and answered

.

Good one

TV01:
Nope, I listen to her intently, but veto calls are made dispassionately. I'm a man. Those who truly possess and know how to wield authority do not confuse it with force and have no need to bark to wield it.

Do you know the meaning of dispassionately, even anger is passionate

And this is very passionate even with the head nonsense: "I am the head, I think we should go with your very compelling idea. Well done mama "

Even men who hate their wives make veto calls with passion (hatred)

TV01:
Whatever the mis-application by people of the scripture, it does not warrant you resorting to the same tactics in reverse to correct. In the same vein, you misconcieved notions about authoritarian or dictatorial leadership do not colour it for all of us. I serve and set an example, I also lead. Don't cover-up the imperative to "lead".

I am not covering up anything neither is mis-application of the scripture colouring anything. I got many advices I discarded because I knew they were not Christianly . I follow my husband's lead (how he behaves). It is right I treat him the way he does to me too

TV01:
I not only wield authority, I continually demonstate that I am worthy of it. I was not joking when I said that my wife implicitly trusts me. Even if not to make mistakes - I am not perfect - it's certainly to have our family' best interest at heart at all times.

LOL!

You continually demonstrate you are worthy of authority aka earn it. Yet when I said men earn their leadership constantly (Heck The Trinity did and still do), it is like I was blaspheming

Try not to prove your worthiness for one month and see the change (abeg don't try it o, I love hearing romantic stories)

Your wife trusts you, that is the normal standard and it is earned by constant loving, leading by example and unselfishness and not because you are the head or ultimate authority.

When you trust someone, even when that person errs, your trust/love is a basis for your decisions and thoughts. (I know my husband loves me but he did this because he is not perfect).

I trust my husband very much too and I know he loves me so much so I understand where you wife is. You need to continually prove yourself worthy to keep her there.

Having the interest of your family at heart helps make the best decisions for both parties

TV01:
You have the hang-up about authority and hence associate it with monstering. I am fine, as is my wife.

Hang up about authority? No
Associate it wit monstering? No

TV01:
In all you have finally admitted that the husband leads - totally contrary to the feminsist position. So I have no qualms. You may have to explain yourself to FrancisTony, who believes it should be completely egalitarian !

A husband leads, I agree
Your authority jugunu (which you have not proved, no)
Besides, you said your wife is not inferior to you and you do not believe your marriage is completely egalitarian even though the headship/authority rarely crops up, then what is she?

TV01:
TV

Just as we are one with Christ and the whole church being the bride of Christ (even though I cannot call you a co-wife as it is one bride), the leadership of a husband is not same with the world view of leadership.

pickabeau1:


Good.. so its concluded now that God is a HE

God is neither a he or she

The spirit world is genderless... we cannot comprehend God as genderless and the male gender is used to denote him.

Just how the Church is called she... Imagine reading 'it is the bride of Christ'

This is not equality or inferiority or superiority and has no bearing to this discussion

kaboninc:

When I said FrancisTony has a problem, only coogar understands!

the dude surely has a strange ailment!
i cannot believe people are questioning God's gender. if God isn't a he, then what gender is God? she? very soon, these godless gits would claim Jesus was a woman with perky breästs!

bukatyne:


God is neither a he or she

The spirit world is genderless... we cannot comprehend God as genderless and the male gender is used to denote him.

Just how the Church is called she... Imagine reading 'it is the bride of Christ'

This is not equality or inferiority or superiority and has no bearing to this discussion

Ok..if God is no He or She, why did Christ call him Father
And what pronoun do you use with father

pickabeau1:


Very good..at least you are contributing

However you are going off on a tangent

It's not about sex organs or brêasts


The issue here is which pronoun should Yahweh the father be referred to

He
She
It
Transgendered

Fill in the gap

FrancisTony:

He should be referred as, "HE" since he was portrayed as a father but it doesn't make him a man.

White men introduced God as a man so that women will feel inferior.
Introduced God as a white so that blacks will feel inferior.

Another one here.

Chasing nairaland ladies?

Would have loved to chase you. Just needed to be sure that you're not a female but a male. I sure do have a thing for damp guys like you.

Ohh, you mentioned Standd...and she 'commanded' you to remove her name?

Between you and I, you listen when I talk.

Your logic here, on this issue, you really need to take a back seat and listen. Not contribute.

coogar:


the dude surely has a strange ailment!
i cannot believe people are questioning God's gender. if God isn't a he, then what gender is God? she? very soon, these godless gits would claim Jesus was a woman with perky breästs!

They would also tag a gender to the Holy Spirit.

My very interest here is on that boy, FrancisTony.

His reasoning is just out of this world. Maybe in wonderland....I just don't know.

pickabeau1:


Ok..if God is no He or She, why did Christ call him Father
And what pronoun do you use with father

.....and why is Jesus referred to as the son?

kaboninc:

They would also tag a gender to the Holy Spirit.
My very interest here is on that boy, FrancisTony.
His reasoning is just out of this world. Maybe in wonderland....I just don't know.

francistony is probably a hermaphrodite or someone whose upbringing was extremely difficult.

pickabeau1:


Ok..if God is no He or She, why did Christ call him Father
And what pronoun do you use with father

Sai!

What part of it is a representation don't you get.

Ok, God is a male, the Church is a female (afterall, na woman be bride)

And pcikabeau1, you are a woman or are you not the bride of Christ?

Male physically, female spiritually

FrancisTony:

Done. Don't mind him.

Thank you. I try to avoid dallying with some e-characters, by mentioning me, they will find excuse to come close, so it is not about you.
Pardon me.

coogar:


.....and why is Jesus referred to as the son?

Why did he come as a man too...

coogar:

francistony is probably a hermaphrodite or someone whose upbringing was extremely difficult.

That pun.k disgust me.

which one is representation.. stop prevaricating

The church is a collection of people (both male and female) and referred to as a bride..hence a she..no issue there

We are talking of God..should God be referred to as a HE or SHE or transgender?

Simple

bukatyne:


Sai!

What part of it is a representation don't you get.

Ok, God is a male, the Church is a female (afterall, na woman be bride)

standd:


Thank you. I try to avoid dallying with some e-characters, by mentioning me, they will find excuse to come close, so it is not about you.
Pardon me.

Indeed!

coogar:


francistony is probably a hermaphrodite or someone whose upbringing was extremely difficult.

I think that should be alluded to you and your fellow frustrated-male-association.

standd:


Thank you. I try to avoid dallying with some e-characters, by mentioning me, they will find excuse to come close, so it is not about you.
Pardon me.

Free the frustrated twerp coming online to fight with ladies.

FrancisTony:

I think that should be alluded to you and your fellow frustrated-male-association.

no....
that description fits you aptly! i have never ever seen you make any intelligent comment since you brought your confused self to the forum.

tell me about your upbringing....
i can bet my last penny there was no father figure present in your life during your formative years.

pickabeau1:
which one is representation.. stop prevaricating

The church is a collection of people (both male and female) and referred to as a bride..hence a she..no issue there

We are talking of God..should God be referred to as a HE or SHE or transgender?

Simple

The genderlessness of God doesn't diminish his worth one bit

Calling God a male does not also add value to earthly males

The Church is a she? literally?

I give up

Your God is a male

The one I serve is neither male or female else there would be serious confusion in the world.

I am made in His likeness; my husband is also made in His likeness.

Still on marriage...

This is not difficult... It'll be hard being a True Feminist and a wife. I watched housewives of NY last night and just learnt Remona divorced Mario. Over 20 years marriage. Mario is just like any other traditional man. But Remona wasn't having any of it and had it to T. She wants to be free.

Same with Bethany, and others.

Look at Sex and the City part 2 , the acclaimed Carey Bradshaw soft pedalled to Mr. Big to remain married. There's no such thing as independence in Marriage. Samantha on the other hand is one crazy Feminist , She loves herself more than any relationship and I respect that.

Hmm who else on tv , Beyoncé is a disgrace to the movement , she follows Jz like Mumu everywhere. Check FB and see public bashfest.

So Frecoccoa , No you can't be traditionaly married (husband as Head) and be a Feminist.

bukatyne:

I am made in His likeness; my husband is also made in His likeness.

Your issue is that u are just leaping
Where was it said God is a male
I asked what pronoun should be used to refer to God?


Good u agree God is a He
So why are Christian feminists clamouring for God not to be represented by He