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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? (26545 Views)
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Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Goshen360(m): 9:48pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
italo: Did Peter that said Acts 2:38 baptize (in water) BEFORE his sins were remitted\forgiven? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 9:58pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff:You are now the teacher of the apostles who baptized people in water, even in Jesus' presense. You know Jesus more than the apostles. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:03pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: If a child dies at the age of two, will he go to heaven or hell? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:14pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
esere826: So the Baptism Peter talked about in Acts 2:38 was not for remission of sins? The baptism in 1Pet3:21 doesn't save? Or it wasn't water baptism? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:28pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
esere826:The moral of the above story is: no answer to my question. If you know so little then I think you should be learning not teaching. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:34pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
Goshen360:Diversionary tactics. I didn't mention "water." The simple question was: Acts 2:38 clearly says baptism is for remission of sin. Do you agree with that? Yes or no? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:38pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
Goshen360:You don't answer a question with a question, Sir. If everyone did that how would the world be. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by esere826: 10:50pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
italo:i think Peter was refering to Baptism in water for the remission of sin here The baptism in 1Pet3:21 doesn't save? Or it wasn't water baptism?I think the writer of this bit (especially if it was Peter) had began to gradually through experience and greater knowledge realise that his earlier conception of water baptism as the sole ritual that brought about 'salvation' had some gaps hence he writes: 1 peter 3: 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ Like you, I once believed in the exclusivity of water baptism and then like Peter in his later epistle, I soon began to question this belief based on my experiences and meditation on the person and message of Christ I was born a christian, and always believed in Christ, when I gave my life to Christ lordship later in life, I 'felt' the cleansing of sins like a weight was lifted out from me, I then went on to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit some weeks later Years later, I got baptised, and felt none of these. I'll rest my case here. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 10:58pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
italo:1. Yes I am not God. Read my post very well. The summary of what I wrote is that if believers understand what baptism is all about, they will surely participate in it. And I add that lack of water can be a challenge to some people. 2. Did the bible record that they were baptized? Did you not see those recorded that they got baptized after believing? Who is making assumptions here? 3. Which passage did you get your assumptions that Ananias washed Paul's sins away with baptism? I have not read of such. 4. I wrote that believing has to do with the SPIRITUAL while baptism has to do with the PHYSICAL. The spiritual comes first before the physical. At the point of believing, one has been saved (the sins forgiven and one becomes a new person). All these happen spiritually. The person is baptized to serve as a physical TESTIMONY of what has happened spiritually. Baptism creates the consciousness of what has taken place in one's life, so that one will be careful in the way one lives. This saves the believer from a lot of sins that the person would have engaged in. But this salvation is different from when the person has not yet believed, which deals with remission or washing away of sins. Acts 16:30-31 30. And he brought them out and said, Sirs, what MUST I do to BE SAVED. (he had not yet believed) 31. So they said. BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED, you and your household. What were the jailer and the household being saved from? Did the apostles here talk about baptism as part of the salvation. Acts 3:19 REPENT therefore and be CONVERTED, that your SINS might be BLOTTED OUT... Is salvation from sin based on baptism here? 5. Rom.3:20 Therefore by the DEEDS of the LAW, NO FLESH will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21. But NOW the righteousness of God APART FROM the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law, and the prophets. 22. even the righteousness of God through FAITH in Christ Jesus, in ALL and on ALL who BELIEVE, for there is no diffrence (whether Jews and Gentiles). 23. For ALL (both Jews and Gentiles) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24. Being JUSTIFIED freely by His grace through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus. Therefore, it is ONLY in Christ Jesus that one is REDEEMED and JUSTIFIED today. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 11:03pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: Why is it difficult for you to let go even when I have asked for forgiveness. I say again that I am sorry. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by esere826: 11:06pm On Jun 17, 2015 |
italo: We never know it all my dear friend we know a lot in somethings and little in others I teach what I know (or believe I know), and learn what I know little about the challenge a number of folks have is that they think they know but actually know nothing and with such haphazard knowledge being masqueraded as the full bouquet of knowledge they end up thinking that arguments are a battle which they must win and thus tend to speak authoritatively on issues they have sparsely meditated on If you being so knowledgeable on the things of hell as to be a teacher for all things I decide to question you rigorously about hell, the way a typical atheist would i doubt you'd give applaud-able answers In conclusion .... I think you should be open to learning and not throwing yourself forth as a teacher who has gained infallible mastership ** I thought to also add that someone 'not being an expert' in something doesn't neccesarily translate to the person 'knowing so little' Interstingly, I do know all the teachings about hell within the concept of christianity (probably more than you do), however, it's not something that I have spent time meditating on, neither am I keen to discuss my meditations so far within such a maze as the present thread **** |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 12:04am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Yes baptism is not for the remission of sins. 'Repent' and 'believe' have taken care of the remission of sins. God has already forgiven one's sins and washed one with the blood of Jesus before one goes for baptism. At the point of believing In Jesus, God transforms one into a new creation. This happen inwardly, while baptism physically or visibly shows what took place inwardly in one's life. Ananias did not say that it was baptism that would wash away Paul's sins. You quoted it halfway, thereby taking away its meaning. Acts 22:16. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. This means that both the baptism and the washing of sins were done calling on the name of the Lord. It is not that baptism will wash away the sins of Paul. This is the same as in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever CALLS on the NAME of the Lord shall be SAVED. Rom.10:13 For whoever CALLS on the NAME of the Lord shall be SAVED. Peter said these words in no particular order, yet he understood what he meant. But I said that to me, his words were not correlative with what he said before and after. Peter's heartbeat was for men to believe in Christ and not necessarily how he put these words. Did Peter say it the right way and were his words correlative with what he said before and after? He said this before that in Acts 2:38: Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. And he said this afterwards: Acts 3:19 REPENT therefore and be CONVERTED, that your sins may be BLOOTED OUT... Finally, Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized... This shows that they believed before they were baptized. And I said that believing entails one's sins being blotted out or washed away, before baptism which visibly shows what has happened inwardly . |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 3:49am On Jun 18, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: Don't mind all those apostles who wrote the Bible in the wrong way. Peter wrote 1Pet3:21 wrong...the he said Acts 2:38 wrong...or maybe Peter said it well then Luke wrote it wrong...Mark wrote Mark 16:16 wrong.....John wrote John 3:5 wrong. In the other thread you said Jesus time had come to perform a miracle in John 2, but John wrote wrongly that Jesus said his time hadn't come. You said Mary's motherly role ended when Jesus started His ministry at 30, but the Bible authors called Mary his mother when he was on the cross at 33. You have made yourself a teacher to the Holy Spirit who inspired these apostles to write wrongly. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 4:46am On Jun 18, 2015 |
Can water baptism wash away ones sin? The concept of Baptism washing away sin stems from Acts 22:16-Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sin, calling on His name. Does this mean you can wash away your sins through baptism? Romans 6:2-7-We died to sin, How can we live into it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death. Colossians 2:12-We were therefore buried with Him through baptism in order, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Mark 16:16-17-Whoever believes and is baptised shall be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Baptism represents a decision to believe in Jesus as our saviour, through baptism we publicly demonstrate that we believe in our salvation obtained through Jesus, who died for us and rose again in three days. Similarly we symbolically indicate that by accepting Jesus in our lives, we are experiencing a rebirth, our old self had died, we are a new creation through Jesus Christ. Jesus made this clear when discussing the importance of baptism with Nicodemus John 3:3-8- I tell you the truth, no-one can see the kingdom of God unless one is born again! It is clear the the baptism doesn't wash away sin, but it is an outward declaration that we want to live with Jesus who is the only one who can forgive sins. It cannot be intended that the external rite of baptism was sufficient to make you pure", but that it was a ordinance appointed by Jesus as a public expression of the washing of sin, or the purification of the heart. Matthew 3:13-15-Jesus showing us a good example, the importance He Himself was baptised, receiving the Holy Spirit-that very same way we through baptism, also receive the Holy Spirit. 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 5:18am On Jun 18, 2015 |
esere826: Learn then, that water Baptism is the door to Christian life. It is what the Church has taught for 2000 years. Don't try to teach me that water baptism is useless. It is a teaching that is alien to Christianity. Read what the early church fathers said about baptism. esere826: That is the reason I ask a lot of questions when I meet someone who purports to know, as I have been doing. Let me ask, have you prayed about this issue of the relevance of Baptism? What did the Lord tell you? esere826: I will give the answers that have been revealed to the Church. End of Story. All my knowledge is from the Catholic Church that has the spiritual authority to teach God's people. The same authority and with which they compiled the Bible in the fourth century. esere826: I am open to learning christian doctrine from God's infallible Church. However, the early Church warned us to flee from false teachers bringing new doctrines like "water baptism is expired." esere826: Anyway, you have a good point. No one knows it all...and it is better to say I don't know than to be contradicting the Bible like you guys are doing with Acts2:38. Just look at how Barnabaseloka is virtually trying to rewrite the Bible to fit in with this heresy. My advice to you is to learn from God's Church. The early Christians didn't interpret scriptures privately, they didn't even have a Bible. They learnt from the Church. That Church is still existing today. It is the Catholic Church. It is pride that makes you think you know more than the Church. 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 5:23am On Jun 18, 2015 |
brocab:start by tearing away Acts 2:38 and John 3:5 from your Bible...or rewriting them like Barnabaseloka. he said they 'weren't written well.' |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 6:07am On Jun 18, 2015 |
As we all know many millions of Catholic's believe in baby baptism-many haven't reached the true baptism of Christ. John 3:3-5- Jesus said to him "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?" Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus had said clearly' one must make a choice. But it seems you Catholic's have a different idea about baptism, none have made a choice, instead you have allowed your parents, to make that choice for you. You all seem to believe your parents made the right decision's, baptising you into the Catholic Church from birth. So your baptism and the scriptures baptism are totally different. John 3:3-5-John 3:16-Jesus said: one must believe? And be born again before he can enter the kingdom of heaven. italo: 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 6:18am On Jun 18, 2015 |
![]() italo: |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by esere826: 6:40am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:aha If you've decided that your only source of learning is your church. that's fine Our arguments or discussions then feels almost like a woman dating a man who they both know will never be hers -fruitless and its also like I would typically say to some MOG indoctrinated fellas here who strongly defend biblical positions their pastors have taken I'd rather discuss with their knowledge sources -their MOGs finally, Yo know that Jeremiah the prophet once invited the children of Jonadab to drink in the house of God as instructed by God they came, but refused to drink. They said that Jonadab their father had instructed them on how to live, and will keep to it. Interestingly, God blessed them for such commitment and rebuked Judah for the recalcitrant behaviour. ...I consequently believe that you have blessings for being commited to your own christian tradition |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 6:43am On Jun 18, 2015 |
It wasn't the Church where the the early Christians received their knowledge about Christ, they received their knowledge from the Holy Spirit, after they became born again. John 14:16-17-"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another helper, that he may be with you forever, that the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him, but you know Him because He dwells with you, and will be in you. In the early days the Christians didn't need the Catholic Church to teach them anything-plus the early Church didn't know anything' to even teach the Christians about Christ. The Lord said he will send His helper to teach you all things, He didn't say the Church will teach you all things. italo: 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 7:00am On Jun 18, 2015 |
brocab: Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Matt 19:4) Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Baptism of infants 1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.5 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth. (403, 1996) Brocab: 'Do not let the little children come to Jesus.' |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 7:25am On Jun 18, 2015 |
someone just implied that the new testament teaching on baptism was done with incomplete knowledge. the holyspirit has given us scripture with incomplete newtestament knowledge. italo did u see that. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 7:30am On Jun 18, 2015 |
esere826:My source is the one true Church and it's tradition as passed down from Jesus and his apostles. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 7:56am On Jun 18, 2015 |
cc OLAADEGBU, Scholar8200, Ubenedictus, Kei144, Esere826, Goshen360, italo, Barnabaseloka ![]() How long is a water baptism piece of string? Where or when is the water baptism line drawn? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 7:58am On Jun 18, 2015 |
brocab: The Lord said it to his Church leaders, the apostles, not you or anyone else. That is why when a dispute broke out, everyone including Paul, went back to the Church leaders in Jerusalem for the correct teaching. They didn't go to the Holy Spirit individually. And listen to what the Church leaders said: Acts 15 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment: 28 For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things: So people need authority of the Church to teach authentic Christian doctrine And it is what the Church teaches that please the Holy Ghost because He is the one that guides the Church to teach. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 8:05am On Jun 18, 2015 |
Ubenedictus: My brother, what won't we see on nairaland? Barnabaseloka said Peter meant one thing but said another thing. Scholar826 said Mary was not the Mother of Jesus. Barnabaseloka said her motherhood stopped when he started preaching. "He who the gods want to destroy, they will first make deaf/mad"--African proverb |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 8:14am On Jun 18, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: You tried to tell me that the "water" in John 3:5 was not literal water, citing the original Greek word used. I showed you that the original Greek word "hydatos" was the same one used for literal water at Jesus' baptism Mark 1:10 And the literal water that was changed to wine (John 2:7). That's how you abandoned the Bible-based discussion and resorted to cartoons drawn by heretics like you. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 8:36am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Cardinal, I didnt want to prolong a situation where someone is set in their thinking or ways, and have their heels dug in. I have always maintained that: #1 Baptisms is about immersion but it is not an exclusive use for water baptism alone (i.e. people get immersed in a countless of other things) #2 We get baptised or immersed to make holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. #3 Water is often used as an allegory or symbolism for God's word, which is through which all are saved Dont know why you go down the heretic route, as I havent objected to water baptism Have only and always maintained that it is not necessary and the ritual shouldnt be forced We now live in the spirit and grace dispensation but if anyone wants to live the hard and old way, they are free to, only do not like the Pharisees lay burdens on others, do not keep bound others, who ought to be set free Finally, a picture speaks a thousand words. Cartoons are worth thousand words, they are capable of telling stories and making points just as well as large amount of posted text |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 8:46am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Go back and read what I posted carefully to get the answer. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 8:48am On Jun 18, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Dodging questions again. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 8:58am On Jun 18, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: You people like all sorts of diversionary tactics when faced with the truth. Suddenly, you don't want to prolong issues...Yet you posted a cartoon. John3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of "hydatos"-water and Spirit. The same hydatos-water he was baptized with. The same hydatos-water he changed to wine. The same water we use for water baptism. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 9:10am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Did not try but pointed out that water in that verse is used as a symbol of God's Holy Spirit and His word I can show countless use of "hydatos" as a symbol of God's Holy Spirit and His word. It is not always literal or physical water |
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