dan2ene:


Reading through your posts and those who share same position with you, I see that:

1. You are aware of eternal destinations (heaven or hell) and that salvation is required for to make heaven.

2. You believe that salvation is by grace and not by works.

These are fundamental truths of the new testament.

However, your understanding of grace as reflected in your posts seem faulty. You need to understand that, while you are not required to "work" to obtain salvation (other than bringing fruit meet for repentance, believe and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal Savior), there is a work IN grace which you need to keep your salvation. Titus 2:11-12 tells us what grace is, what it brings, what it TEACHES US TO DO...note the capitalized. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and teaches us to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world...that is the work IN grace. That is why Apostle James in his epistle put forward that your faith and work (work in grace) go together.

You need to ask yourself why are their temptations? Why did Jesus warn about many being deceived in the end times, why did he say if any who after putting his hand into the plough and looks back is not fit for the kingdom. Why are Christians warned to watch and pray?

The doctrine of eternal security sounds like this... "I am born again... I am sealed for eternal glory... irrespective of my actions I remain saved...even if I go back to those things Jesus Christ redeemed me from... I will still be saved...once saved always saved". This is very wrong and heretic as it makes the blood of Jesus of non effect... and nullifies the entire new testament.

While you claim to support holy living, you should know this doctrine provides safe haven for sin lovers who run from the light of the gospel of truth because they don't want to give up sin and would not want to hear the consequences of their sinfulness.

There is nothing wrong in being conscious of the terror of hell fire as it will continually keep you on guard and grateful for salvation.

So much has been said already by few well meaning persons in this thread. I sincerely pray you take this into fruitful consideration. The consequence of being deceived and deceiving others is inconceivable.

Thank God for your life!

Oh my, many believers have already sealed their doom. There's no such thing as eternal security. It is one of the lies of the father of lies, Satan, the great Deceiver.

An2elect, Jiggaz, and every proponent of the evil doctrine of "Eternal Security," the Bible said in the book of 1 Peter 4:17 that judgment shall begin from the house of God. Peter went further to say that if the righteous are SCARCELY saved, what will become of the unrighteous?

Don't gamble your souls on this evil doctrine. Judas was with Christ but he lost his soul though he tasted salvation. Christ even said it were better not to have known Him than to know Him and still backslide. This statement shows the great possibility of one losing their salvation.

vooks:


Listen buddy.
NOTHING external can pluck them from His side but they can walk away from all that. God can't keep you on His side against your will
The prodigal son, only he could opt out. His wealth and position was guaranteed. Had he perished out there,he'd have died like a commoner.

Simply say, God does in fact, not save.

vooks:
Many believers who live like Satan because they imagine God is helpless against them seeing He saved them will be horrified to end up in hell

5solas:

Believers who live like Satan! They don't exist!

vooks:

You are right; they fall from Grace and perish. One can't fall from something they never had

5solas:


Gal. 3:11

Gal.5 4

Marry the two verses, the answer will pop out.

vooks:


You can do more intelligent rebuttals than parables

1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Walk me through your u dear standing of DEPART FROM FAITH, and its consequences which were dire enough to have the Spirit EXPRESSLY speaking about them

A common practice among those who believe that salvation can be lost (Arminians) is to quote verses they don't even understand, that they have not carefully examined contextually. I will pick you up on one - Galatians 5:4.
For years I had thought (as I think most people still do) that it taught that a believer could fall from grace. Interestingly, I only gained the right understanding of it years after I became a Calvinist (believing salvation cannot be lost). The whole point of Paul in this book is that justification (salvation) does not come from keeping of the law and this we get from 2:16 and 3:11.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Having stressed throughout this book that salvation does not come from the law , but rather the keeping of the law for salvation provokes God, he uses a figure of speech an [url]hyperbole[/url] which has continued to trip many to this day, all because they fail to read his words in context.
He says: 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

His meaning is simple, '' rather than your adherence to the law giving you grace, it takes grace from you-you are fallen from grace(you were never in grace!)
And looking at this verse objectively, we understand who ''falls from grace ''. Not a believer who falls into sin as so many proclaim, but that person who keeps the law in order to get salvation. How ironical!
Such a one Paul regards as foolish 3:1. Notice in 5:4 he says whosoever is justified by the law, yet he had taught that no one is justified (saved) by the law. And we know he is not contradicting himself, call it an [url]oxymoron[/url], if you will.

5solas:



A common practice among those who believe that salvation can be lost (Arminians) is to quote verses they don't even understand, that they have not carefully examined contextually. I will pick you up on one - Galatians 5:4.
For years I had thought (as I think most people still do) that it taught that a believer could fall from grace. Interestingly, I only gained the right understanding of it years after I became a Calvinist (believing salvation cannot be lost). The whole point of Paul in this book is that justification (salvation) does not come from keeping of the law and this we get from 2:16 and 3:11.



Having stressed throughout this book that salvation does not come from the law , but rather the keeping of the law for salvation provokes God, he uses a figure of speech an [url]hyperbole[/url] which has continued to trip many to this day, all because they fail to read his words in context.
He says: 5:4
His meaning is simple, '' rather than your adherence to the law giving you grace, it takes grace from you-you are fallen from grace(you were never in grace!)
And looking at this verse objectively, we understand who ''falls from grace ''. Not a believer who falls into sin as so many proclaim, but that person who keeps the law in order to get salvation. How ironical!
Such a one Paul regards as foolish 3:1. Notice in 5:4 he says whosoever is justified by the law, yet he had taught that no one is justified (saved) by the law. And we know he is not contradicting himself, call it an [url]oxymoron[/url], if you will.

1 Timothy 4:1 speaks of departing from faith. That sounds like leaving faith behind you. You would do well to address this instead of dozens of irrelevant scriptures sir.

What is DEPART FROM FAITH?


PS: am no Armian

5solas:


Simply say, God does in fact, not save.

God DOES NOT SAVE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL; you believe, He saves,you don't,He doesn't

vooks:


1 Timothy 4:1 speaks of departing from faith. That sounds like leaving faith behind you. You would do well to address this instead of dozens of irrelevant scriptures sir.

What is DEPART FROM FAITH?


PS: am no Armian

We do not read of believers losing their salvation in that verse. It is your wrong conclusion despite innumerable verses to the contrary. Please give us the methodology of salvation lose. We are entitled to that. The number of sins we ought to have committed , their severity, how we can be saved again, If Christ gets to die again, e.t.c

5solas:

We do not read of believers losing their salvation in that verse. It is your wrong conclusion despite innumerable verses to the contrary. Please give us the methodology of salvation lose. We are entitled to that. The number of sins we ought to have committed , their severity, how we can be saved again, If Christ gets to die again, e.t.c

You are dithering.
What is DEPART FROM FAITH?

It means there is a possibility of having your faith wrecked by false teachers,persecution or temptations.Hymenaeus and philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone.

vooks:

You are dithering.
What is DEPART FROM FAITH?

BUT God still knew those who were His, which is the real issue of eternal life anyway.(2 tim 2:15-19).

ABDULADINO:
It means there is a possibility of having your faith wrecked by false teachers,persecution or temptations.Hymenaeus and philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone. BUT God still knew those who were His, which is the real issue of eternal life anyway.(2 tim 2:15-19).

Good
Your faith may be wrecked,which means you had the precious faith in the first place.

What are the risks of having your faith wrecked?

Why is it so important that the Spirit EXPRESSLY SPEAKETH about it?

ABDULADINO:
It means there is a possibility of having your faith wrecked by false teachers,persecution or temptations.Hymenaeus and philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone. BUT God still knew those who were His, which is the real issue of eternal life anyway.(2 tim 2:15-19).

The word "depart from" used in 1Tim 4v1 is the greek "aphistemi"; and it means, "to leave, to abandon, to get away from, to dissociate from"

It is the same word used in,

Luke 13v27 -But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me (aphistemi), all ye workers of iniquity.

And also here;

Hebrew 3v12 -Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from (aphistemi) the living God.

You see;

When you depart from the faith, it doesn't just mean your faith is wrecked or damaged or broken; it means you left the faith, you abandoned the faith -you became an unbeliever.

Let me ask you; Can you become an unbeliever and still remain a christian? Can you depart from the faith through which we are saved and still be saved?

Emphatically NO! You can't depart from the faith through which we are saved and still keep the salvation.

Those christians that the Holy Spirit said will depart from the faith in the last days definitely lost the salvation.

Shalom!

5solas:

We do not read of believers losing their salvation in that verse. It is your wrong conclusion despite innumerable verses to the contrary. Please give us the methodology of salvation lose. We are entitled to that. The number of sins we ought to have committed , their severity, how we can be saved again, If Christ gets to die again, e.t.c

So you want the Spirit to say, "Some shall depart from the faith and lose their salvation" for you to know such christians definitly lost their salvation?

Are we not saved by grace through faith? If we depart from the faith through which we are saved, do we still stay saved? Ofcourse not!

Scripture says we are made overcomers by faith.

1John 5v4 -...and this the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

And we end as overcomers by keeping the faith unto the end.

The Holy Spirit told Paul that some christians will not keep the faith unto the end; they will depart from the faith.

1Timothy 4v1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Now, christians that the Holy Spirit said will depart from the faith will not end as overcomers.

And what will happen to christians who depart from the faith and don't end as overcomers?

According to Jesus, christians who depart from the faith and don't end as overcomers will have their names blotted out of the book of life;

Revelation 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in whote raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.

And they will be hurt of the second death (the lake of fire);

Revelation 2v11 -...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

So according to the Holy Spirit; a christian can depart from the faith. And according to Jesus such a christian will end up in the lake of fire just like every other unbeliever.

Revelation 20v15 -And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So yes, salvation can be lost. Once a believer is not automatic always a believer. And once an overcomer is not automatic always an overcomer.

Faith can be departed from. And salvation will be lost by those who depart from the faith.

Shalom

salvation isn't of man... it is of GOD. that which is of God standeth sure.
Salvation is finished by Him. and it reached ALL.

Chikote:
salvation isn't of man... it is of GOD. that which is of God standeth sure.

Salvation is finished by Him. and it reached ALL.

We are not competing at posting cliches but rather scriptures

Ayoku777,
One's salvation is guaranteed in Christ in the sense that nothing external to you can pluck you from His side. And this point is behind several verses in Romans and John. But Jesus can't hold you against your will. You can walk away from all thT just like Adam. Satan could not rob him of his fellowship with God, but he certainly could and did incite him to rebel and walk away.

I like to think of the prodigal son. In his father's house he was secure. He opted to stray and out there he was perishing unless he returned back. If he had died out there, his Sonship would have been worthless. This is the fate of those who depart from faith. And this is why it is disastrous.

A common argument I keep on hearing which to me is but a lame excuse to avoid the truth is,the believer who departs from faith was not truly saved. But in this case,why would Holy Spirit warn about these non-genuine believers falling off into apostasy? Are they not doomed already?

vooks:
One's salvation is guaranteed in Christ in the sense that nothing external to you can pluck you from His side. And this point is behind several verses in Romans and John. But Jesus can't hold you against your will. You can walk away from all thT just like Adam. Satan could not rob him of his fellowship with God, but he certainly could and did incite him to rebel and walk away.

I like to think of the prodigal son. In his father's house he was secure. He opted to stray and out there he was perishing unless he returned back. If he had died out there, his Sonship would have been worthless. This is the fate of those who depart from faith. And this is why it is disastrous.

A common argument I keep on hearing which to me is but a lame excuse to avoid the truth is,the believer who departs from faith was not truly saved. But in this case,why would Holy Spirit warn about these non-genuine believers falling off into apostasy? Are they not doomed already?

You're absolutely correct.

An unbeliever cannot depart from the faith because he was never in the faith. And an unbeliever cannot fall away because he was never standing by faith.

So only someone who once had faith in Christ and no longer does can be said to have departed from the faith or fallen away.

So the warning and statement of those who will depart from the faith or fall away in the endtimes is definitely referring to christians who will become unbelievers

And the consequence of departing from the faith through which we are save is the loss of the salvation.

God bless

vooks:

Good
Your faith may be wrecked,which means you had the precious faith in the first place.

You used the word precious faith which is not instant but progessive. Read 1 peter.

vooks:
What are the risks of having your faith wrecked?

Why is it so important that the Spirit EXPRESSLY SPEAKETH about it?

Scripture is clear for christians to see.Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness,lest he cost his hearers the truth and rigtheous living. It all boils down to the five fold (Eph 4:11-14).
Because i differ in view with the catholics on doctrinal stand i cannot categorically claim all of them lose their salvation or will end up in hell, likewise protestants,pentecostals etc.

ayoku777:


The word "depart from" used in 1Tim 4v1 is the greek "aphistemi"; and it means, "to leave, to abandon, to get away from, to dissociate from"

It is the same word used in,

Luke 13v27 -But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me (aphistemi), all ye workers of iniquity.

And also here;

Hebrew 3v12 -Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from (aphistemi) the living God.

You see;

When you depart from the faith, it doesn't just mean your faith is wrecked or damaged or broken; it means you left the faith, you abandoned the faith -you became an unbeliever.

Let me ask you; Can you become an unbeliever and still remain a christian? Can you depart from the faith through which we are saved and still be saved?

Emphatically NO! You can't depart from the faith through which we are saved and still keep the salvation.

Those christians that the Holy Spirit said will depart from the faith in the last days definitely lost the salvation.

Shalom!

No need for greek and semantics. Can the elect's faith be overthrown? Yes from 1 Tim4. U guys quoted. Can the elect lose their salvation?Emphatically NO. Can any elect be in hell?Emphatically NO. Two diff things. The word "elect" means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began.( 1 peter 1:2).So God knows the end from the beginning.

ABDULADINO:
No need for greek and semantics. Can the elect's faith be overthrown? Yes from 1 Tim4. U guys quoted. Can the elect lose their salvation?Emphatically NO. Can any elect be in hell?Emphatically NO. Two diff things. The word "elect" means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began.( 1 peter 1:2).So God knows the end from the beginning.

The churches that Jesus warned in Revelation that if they don't overcome, their names will be blotted out of the book of life; were they not believers and elect too? Is it not by faith in Christ you become an elect of God?

Or you think someone can be a christian, a believer in Christ Jesus, and still not be an elect. Don't come up with heresis just to establish your false doctrine.

Every believer is an elect. So if Jesus warned believers that their names written in the book of life can be blotted out if they do not end as overcomers and keep the faith; then there is no such thing as "once saved always saved".

Names written in the book of life can be blotted out, according to Jesus. How much more prove do you need that salvation and eternal life can be lost other than that?

What does it mean for someones name to be written in the book of life? It means to have eternal life or be ordained unto eternal life.

Then what do you think is the implication of a name in the book of life being blotted out by Jesus? It means to lose eternal life.

And what did the bible say will happen to those whose names are not found in the book of life? They will be cast into the lake of fire.

This stern warning was given by Christ Himself to believers in the churches; members of His body; the elect of God according to grace through faith.

So what are you saying?

Shalom!

ayoku777:


The churches that Jesus warned in Revelation that if they don't overcome, their names will be blotted out of the book of life; were they not believers and elect too? Is it not by faith in Christ you become an elect of God?

Or you think someone can be a christian, a believer in Christ Jesus, and still not be an elect. Don't come up with heresis just to establish your false doctrine.

Every believer is an elect. So if Jesus warned believers that their names written in the book of life can be blotted out if they do not end as overcomers and keep the faith; then there is no such thing as "once saved always saved".

Names written in the book of life can be blotted out, according to Jesus. How much more prove do you need that salvation and eternal life can be lost other than that?

What does it mean for someones name to be written in the book of life? It means to have eternal life or be ordained unto eternal life.

Then what do you think is the implication of a name in the book of life being blotted out by Jesus? It means to lose eternal life.

And what did the bible say will happen to those whose names are not found in the book of life? They will be cast into the lake of fire.

This stern warning was given by Christ Himself to believers in the churches; members of His body; the elect of God according to grace through faith.

So what are you saying?

Shalom!

Revelations is way past your pay grade.Lol @heresies. All of the things i said are simple bible studies.Show me from scriptures just one elect of God in hell, maybe i will concede to your doctrine.

ABDULADINO:
You used the word precious faith which is not instant but progessive. Read 1 peter.

Paul uses FAITH. I added precious, remove it and see if it makes a difference.
Walk me through this theory of yours of progressive not instant on of these fine days.

From 1 Timothy 4, we can tell what kind of faith they depart from by the context; they will follow doctrines of Devils.

Scripture is clear for christians to see.Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness,lest he cost his hearers the truth and rigtheous living. It all boils down to the five fold (Eph 4:11-14).
Because i differ in view with the catholics on doctrinal stand i cannot categorically claim all of them lose their salvation or will end up in hell, likewise protestants,pentecostals etc.

DEPART FROM FAITH has become a thorn in the flesh. Sad

ABDULADINO:
No need for greek and semantics. Can the elect's faith be overthrown? Yes from 1 Tim4. U guys quoted. Can the elect lose their salvation?Emphatically NO. Can any elect be in hell?Emphatically NO. Two diff things. The word "elect" means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began.( 1 peter 1:2).So God knows the end from the beginning.

Stop misusing jargon you barely understand.
If God picks some to eternal life, it also means he chose the rest to eternal damnation. God refused to save them yet they are incapable of saving themselves. Not even Jesus dying 1000 times could save them!

God does not predetermine who gets saved, he predetermines the character of the saved

ayoku777:


So you want the Spirit to say, "Some shall depart from the faith and lose their salvation" for you to know such christians definitly lost their salvation?

Of course! Because He had said before that:
Matthew 24

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ...
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So you will do well to explain who His elects are, why those terrible days will be shortened for their sakes,why they cannot be deceived and why the angels will gather them together. Let's see if it all adds up to ,''so that they can lose their salvation!"

Are we not saved by grace through faith? If we depart from the faith through which we are saved, do we still stay saved? Ofcourse not!

Scripture says we are made overcomers by faith.

1John 5v4 -...and this the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

And we end as overcomers by keeping the faith unto the end.

The Holy Spirit told Paul that some christians will not keep the faith unto the end; they will depart from the faith.

1Timothy 4v1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Now, christians that the Holy Spirit said will depart from the faith will not end as overcomers.

And what will happen to christians who depart from the faith and don't end as overcomers?

According to Jesus, christians who depart from the faith and don't end as overcomers will have their names blotted out of the book of life;

Revelation 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in whote raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.

And they will be hurt of the second death (the lake of fire);

Revelation 2v11 -...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

So according to the Holy Spirit; a christian can depart from the faith. And according to Jesus such a christian will end up in the lake of fire just like every other unbeliever.

Revelation 20v15 -And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So yes, salvation can be lost. Once a believer is not automatic always a believer. And once an overcomer is not automatic always an overcomer.

Faith can be departed from. And salvation will be lost by those who depart from the faith.

Shalom

Blah blah blah.

vooks:

Stop misusing jargon you barely understand.
If God picks some to eternal life, it also means he chose the rest to eternal damnation.

Alright! So that's why you won't admit predestination. It is common with Arminians. No amount of blackmail will keep us from admitting and proclaiming it.

God refused to save them yet they are incapable of saving themselves. Not even Jesus dying 1000 times could save them!

No one is capable of saving themselves. The beauty of the gospel is that God decided to save some, even though He was under no obligation to save any.

God does not predetermine who gets saved,

True, if you get saved, you saved yourself!

he predetermines the character of the saved

And yet for all that, some still get lost.

And why only the character of the saved?


And sure enough, here, you think Him just!

ABDULADINO:
You used the word precious faith which is not instant but progessive. Read 1 peter.
Scripture is clear for christians to see.Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness,lest he cost his hearers the truth and rigtheous living. It all boils down to the five fold (Eph 4:11-14).

Good observation. To them context does not matter, faith equals faith whenever and wherever it is used.

ABDULADINO:
No need for greek and semantics. Can the elect's faith be overthrown? Yes from 1 Tim4. U guys quoted. Can the elect lose their salvation?Emphatically NO. Can any elect be in hell?Emphatically NO. Two diff things. The word "elect" means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began.( 1 peter 1:2).So God knows the end from the beginning.

Hmm. Blessed are your eyes!

ayoku777:


What does it mean for someones name to be written in the book of life? It means to have eternal life or be ordained unto eternal life.

Sadly, you don't understand what it means to be ordained unto eternal life.

vooks:

Paul uses FAITH. I added precious, remove it and see if it makes a difference.
Walk me through this theory of yours of progressive not instant on of these fine days.

From 1 Timothy 4, we can tell what kind of faith they depart from by the context; they will follow doctrines of Devils.


DEPART FROM FAITH has become a thorn in the flesh. Sad

Lol. What is faith? Peter makes it plain that we are "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience"(1 peter 1:2). Deal with that, then we can move on.

5solas:

Of course! Because He had said before that:
Matthew 24

So you will do well to explain who His elects are, why those terrible days will be shortened for their sakes,why they cannot be deceived and why the angels will gather them together. Let's see if it all adds up to ,''so that they can lose their salvation!"



Blah blah blah.

Study your bible very well sir.

The elect of Matthew 24v22 are the believers who did not fall away or depart from the faith like some.

The endtimes is divided into three stages. The beginning of sorrows (Matthew 24v8), the final preaching of the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24v14); and the tribulation (Matthew 24v21).

Believers and elects who are still standing in the faith by the time of the tribulation have already proven their love for God and for the truth.

The departure from the faith, and the great falling away into apostasy will take place during the beginning of sorrows and the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom. That is when the love of many shall wax cold because of the increase in wickedness (Matthew 24v12); and the love of others will be proven.

By the time of the tribulation, when God will pour out His wrath without mixture on the ungodly, the world would have already been divided into sons of God and sons of perdition. And the elect still standing would have already proven their love for God and for the truth.

Those are the elect Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24. The ones who didn't depart from the faith or fall away into unbelief and apostasy like some during the beginning of sorrows. Those believers are the elect of Matthew 24v22, for whose sakes the days of the tribulation would be shortened.

Shalom.

5solas:

Sadly, you don't understand what it means to be ordained unto eternal life.

sadly most of them come as clever operators saying "we will take this, but we won't take that!". The bible never in any way gives us such a concept of salvation. Jesus Christ is the Saviour. And as saviour He saves us because He has all the offices of SAVIOUR.

vooks:

Stop misusing jargon you barely understand.
If God picks some to eternal life, it also means he chose the rest to eternal damnation. God refused to save them yet they are incapable of saving themselves. Not even Jesus dying 1000 times could save them!

God does not predetermine who gets saved, he predetermines the character of the saved

Character? Dont make me laff.Jacob,David,Solomon, Peter and Paul were men of notable character abi? Examples abound you can even add Rahab the harlot to the mix.

5solas:

Sadly, you don't understand what it means to be ordained unto eternal life.

Unfortunately for you, I understand well enough what it means to be ordained unto something. And it is clear from scripture that what a man is ordained unto does not override his freewill or his right of choice to decide where he ends up.

Judas Iscariot was ordained by Jesus to be among those who will sit on twelve thrones in the age to come judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But he chose to go his own way -the way of perdition; contrary to what he was ordained unto by God.

Matthew 19v28 -And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

But Judas chose to become a son of perdition and go the way of perdition.

Acts 1v25 -That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas was ordained to sit on a throne in the age to come, but he fell by transgression, and went his own way.

You see that?

A man can choose to go his own way, what he was ordained unto not withstanding. Just like names written in the book of life can be blotted out.

A man can by his own choice to depart from the faith, cause his own name to be blotted out of the book of life and end up in the lake of fire; even though his name was once in the book (that is, he once had eternal life).

You can argue with me, but not with scripture. Names can be blotted out of the book of life, according to Jesus.

Tip-toe round these verses all you want, they won't mean any other thing other than the obvious -that salvation and eternal life can be lost by someone who once had it.

Shalom.