Pure Description Of Islam - Religion (4) - Nairaland
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| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Nobody: 12:20pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
Demmzy15: It's not even in thre apocrypha so stop this al taqquiya nonsense. I challenge you to quote the book and verse in the apocrypha |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by plainbibletruth: 12:22pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
Demmzy15:Your today's Quran was NOT written by Mohammed. Remember, he was even confused about the source of his 'revelations'? Islamic leader after Mohammed got together bits and pieces of purported 'sayings' of Mohammed, destroyed the ones that did not align with positions and put the rest together. So you see no theme, no order, no logic. BUT thank God they forgot to EDIT out some of these portions that are now showing Islam for what it truly is. It will be dubious of you to want to use a writing Christians don't hold as their holy book to prove your point here. The others used your holy books to show the corruptness of your 'prophet'. You have not been able to prove your claim from their holy book. Instead, like a parrot, you're still pitiably asking the same question over and over. 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Demmzy15(m): 12:56pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
Scholar8200: David alone can't be used as prove for this assertion of yours. Steven M. Lowenstein Professor of Jewish History “The next great life cycle event in Jewish life after the bar Mirzvah is marriage. In most traditional societies (Jewish and Non-Jewish), marriages were arranged between families, with only the most perfunctory consultation with the couple to-be, and often involved complex financial arrangements such as dowries and trousseaus. In the middle ages the age at marriage seems to have been around puberty throughout the Jewish world. …” “Betrothal, or engagement, generally occurred at the age eight or nine. Jewish girls typically married at age eleven or twelve and boys at about thirteen or fourteen. (In Germany and France, Christian girls typically married at twelve or thirteen, and boys were usually in their late teens or twenties.)… (Marriage in Ashkenazic).” The History of the Jewish People: A Story of Tradition And Change By Jonathan B. Krasner, Jonathan D. Sarnapage volume 1 page 83 The link I provided in which you didn't click states: "The first of God’s commands in the Bible concerns the propagation of the human species: ‘be fruitful and multiply’ (Genesis 9:7). Jews believed it was their duty to marry as early in life as possible. For a woman, marriage plans could be made at the onset of puberty. For a man, 18 years was the recommended age. Any person who had passed the age of 20 without being married was not carrying out the will of God. A man might postpone marriage in order to study the Torah, but only in very rare instances were people permitted to remain unmarried for life." http://www.womeninthebible.net/3.2.Major_Events.htm Early marriages was common among Jewish people, lemme show you the event of Mary's marriage to Joseph. Catholic Encyclopaedia says: “When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, “the Lord’s brother”). A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm You're a Christian not a Jew, so stop arguing about the customs and norms which is common among the Jewish people, it's very irrational. the Bible chronicles dispensations: Ante- and Post - Deluvian, OT and NT (the latter continues till now). It will be wrong to attribute actions of one disp, that was clearly laid aside to another disp; any conclusion drawn therefrom would be wrong. Weren't the children taken as slaves? Was is it not commanded by Moses in which God didn't object? I don't care whether it's this way or that way, it was done and there's nothing you can do about it. It would help to read the whole story and understand the context lest you fight for the guilty against God to Whom belongs Justice and Vengeance! They were taken as slaves without God objecting, so there's no explanation there again. It was done, Israelites took children as sex slaves.. . Shikena.. Once again, read the whole story. For the records: You've gotten it wrong again, the verse never stated "young women". Let's take a critical look at it: Now therefore kill every male among the little ones (taph), and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children (taph), that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18 The Hebrew word 'Taph' emphasized is defined: An English and Hebrew Lexicon – Professor Selig Newman: Child , an infant … טַף… an offspring,… get with-…… So you can see for youself that nothing like "young women" but "infants", "children ". 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Demmzy15(m): 1:07pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
plainbibletruth: Looks like you have amnesia... lol...  ... http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/world-oldest-quran-manuscripts-uk-150722110034399.html [s]Remember, he was even confused about the source of his 'revelations'?A sincere person should please visit this thread and see the liar and the gullible https://www.nairaland.com/2489382/where-did-mohammeds-stories-come Now [size=18pt]Why did 12year old Mary have marry 90years old Joseph? Why did 14year old Mary have sex with 92year old Joseph?! [/size] 1 Like |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Scholar8200(m): 1:29pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
Demmzy15:Isaac was 40 years old when he married Rebecca; remember that this marriage was arranged when Abraham was alive meaning there was no unusual delay (Genesis 25:20) This refutes the highlighted! Joseph was 30 years old when he married; (Genesis 41:46). This is why for a discussion like this, it helps to keep to the Source; other websites etc could be generated by those who were biased. The more reason why it's best to focus on matters that concern the NT dispensation as per Num 31:18. (I hope you bear this in mind) Besides everyone is privileged to acquire knowledge! Besides, it's in cross examining the various speakers that we know who was biased and who was not. Once again, consider: At age 70, David could not even feel heat let alone get married and have children; if we'll talk about those days then at least we should have references! Note that David came generations before Joseph! Moreover, would a man of 90+ be able to move from Bethlehem to Nazareth to Egypt etc? It perhaps will aid your stand point if you could point out one or two obvious examples from the Bible (not Apocrypha) of a man that married one of such a tender age. The apocrypha are useful for edification, but canonical in the sense that they are the rule for confirming matters of faith, no! http://www.justforcatholics.org/a108.htm Implication is that apocrypha are not part of the Bible and were a mixture of truth culled from the latter and traditions, the evidence of which were non-existent! 8. The Apocryphal books were placed in Bibles before the Council of Trent and after but were placed in a separate section because they were not of equal authority. The Apocrypha rightfully has some devotional purposes, but it is not inspired. False Teachings 9. The Apocrypha contains a number of false teachings (see: Errors in the Apocrypha). (To check the following references, see http://www.newadvent.org/bible.) The command to use magic (Tobit 6:5-7). Forgiveness of sins by almsgiving (Tobit 4:11; 12:9). Offering of money for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43-45). Not Prophetic 10. The Apocryphal books do not share many of the chararacteristics of the Canonical books: they are not prophetic, there is no supernatural confirmation of any of the apocryphal writers works, there is no predictive prophecy, there is no new Messianic truth revealed, they are not cited as authoritative by any prophetic book written after them, and they even acknowledge that there were no prophets in Israel at their time (cf. 1 Macc. 9:27; 14:41). https://carm.org/why-apocrypha-not-in-bible Meaning we cannot count on the apocrypha if we'll be objective in our considerations! 1 Like |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by plainbibletruth: 2:28pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
Demmzy15: |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Demmzy15(m): 4:32pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
Scholar8200: Now does this change the fact that Jews engaged in early marriages. I've accepted the issue of Abraham, Isaac etc. But what of other Jews, what age did they get married? I pointed that out in my last post with some of them marrying early as far the middle ages which was thousands of years after Abraham and the rest. The more reason why it's best to focus on matters that concern the NT dispensation as per Num 31:18. (I hope you bear this in mind) Of course it's a valid point, commanded by Moses in which the God that is always the same(Hebrews 13:  didn't object to. Besides everyone is privileged to acquire knowledge! Besides, it's in cross examining the various speakers that we know who was biased and who was not. I don't get, please rephrase. Once again, consider: At age 70, David could not even feel heat let alone get married and have children; if we'll talk about those days then at least we should have references! Note that David came generations before Joseph! Moreover, would a man of 90+ be able to move from Bethlehem to Nazareth to Egypt etc? Using David as an example, are you saying men of 70+ can't perform sex? I don't think so, even looking at the story critically David was near death. Till this day we have men who have given birth at 92,94 and 96years. Go to Syria you can still find men of over 70years fighting. So I think your analysis about the age is wrong. It perhaps will aid your stand point if you could point out one or two obvious examples from the Bible (not Apocrypha) of a man that married one of such a tender age. Apparently if the ages were found in the Bible, then there's no need to go to external sources. But we can't, so me running to the apocryphal is not bad. Right from the time of Jesus to date we have Jews who married early and I pointed it out in earlier post.
Their ages is not a matter of faith, their ages won't increase faith in anyway. So I'm not using them for that purpose. Implication is that apocrypha are not part of the Bible and were a mixture of truth culled from the latter and traditions, the evidence of which were non-existent! Mixture of "truth" but not entirely true, not all of it is false. I'm not into the apocryphal for any purpose rather than the ages in which the bible failed to provide us. The age of Prophet Muhammad and Aisha is not found in the Quran, but in the hadeeth. If the Qur'an mentioned it, then no need to go to the hadeeth or any secondary sources. 8. The Apocryphal books were placed in Bibles before the Council of Trent and after but were placed in a separate section because they were not of equal authority. The Apocrypha rightfully has some devotional purposes, but it is not inspired. The ages aren't that serious that requires inspiration. It's not as hard as you want it to be, stop complicating matters. [b]False Teachings I clicked the link(as an act of honesty in which none of you actually did) and I found nothing, the screenshots is below, the ages of Mary and Joseph is surely not one of the wrong teachings. Like the hadeeth, there are many parts which are false but not all, so we ignore the false and focus on the truthful. I imploy you to do the same. The command to use magic (Tobit 6:5-7). The age of Mary definitely not part, like you said earlier. Some parts are dubious not all, so the Mary and Joseph part are right! Not Prophetic Let's see what some scholars say about the "Apocryphal": “Apocrypha is a plural word (singular: apocryphan) that originally denoted hidden or secret writings, to be read only by initiates into a given Christian group.” The Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls By James VanderKam, Peter Flint chapter 8 “The term apocryphan signifies “that which is hidden” or “concealed”– some intimate secret shared only by the chosen few.” Poetics of the Gnostic Universe: Narrative And Cosmology in the Apocryphon of John By Zlatko Plese page 7 "apocryphan- secret or hidden book, such as the Apocryphan of James (a.k.a. secret Book of James)." John the Baptist: Prophet of Purity for a New Age By Catherine M. Murphy page 161 As you can see for yourself, not all parts of the apocryphal is spurious. Since when I've been reading about the apocryphal I've never come across any scholar who claimed the ages of Mary and Joseph is wrong or fabricated. In the Muslim hadiths, you can find many fabricated stories but it still contains truth in them. So therefore we can't totally condemn it. These are works of men, they are prone to faults. Remember that no one is perfect. Meaning we cannot count on the apocrypha if we'll be objective in our considerations! On matters about the faith, we can't trust the apocryphal. The both ages isn't about faith, but just a general knowledge, so we can count on it. 2 Likes 2 Shares
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| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Demmzy15(m): 4:36pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:TOO funny I forgot to laugh   1 Like |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Scholar8200(m): 5:03pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
Demmzy15:In considering Truth, we go as far as the Word reveals hence if we cannot establish a claim therefrom, it should be shelved! God remains the same, dispensations don't! Some of the practices then were allowed because: ... of the hardness (stubbornness and perversity) of your hearts Moses permitted you to dismiss and repudiate and divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been so [ordained]. Matthew 19:8 How many christians have claimed to be acting on Numbers 31:18 today? How many Israelites have claimed to be acting on Num 31:18 today? Go to Syria you can still find men of over 70years fighting. So I think your analysis about the age is wrong. [/font] Well i've brought my own samples from the Bible; wish you could bring yours thence too! How do we verify the highlighted? Are there any sources apart from the Apocrypha?
The link you snapped was embedded in the one I posted from the original websites hence I was more focused on it:https://carm.org/why-apocrypha-not-in-bible. I actually included the source just in case you desire to verify the truth of what was quoted. For example, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm starts with: The chief sources of information on the life of St. Joseph are the first chapters of our first and third Gospels they are practically also the only reliable sources; , for, whilst, on the holy patriarch's life, as on many other points connected with the Saviour's history which are left untouched by the canonical writings, the apocryphal literature is full of details, the non-admittance of these works into the Canon of the Sacred Books casts a strong suspicion upon their contents; and, even granted that some of the facts recorded by them may be founded on trustworthy traditions, it is in most instances next to impossible to discern and sift these particles of true history from the fancies with which they are associated. Among these apocryphal productions dealing more or less extensively with some episodes of St. Joseph's life may be noted the so-called "Gospel of James", the "Pseudo-Matthew", the "Gospel of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary", the "Story of Joseph the Carpenter", and the "Life of the Virgin and Death of Joseph". Meaning the most reliable source is the gospels of Matthew and Luke! When it comes to matters of faith, we cannot enlist the contents of any source that bares damning errors/heresies simply because it agrees with us; what do you think? Of the contents of these books as regards Mary's parents (Gospel of James), this was written: The reference to Joachim/Imran is peculiar only to the Catholics who themselves got it from the non-canonical, literary works called the apocrypha; a website quoted them thus: "We have no historical evidence, however, of any elements of their lives, including their names. Any stories about Mary’s father and mother come to us through legend and tradition.”(http://daily-bible-study-tips.com/Reader-Questions-Answered/Lineage-of-Mary.htm quoting from official catholic website No wonder the jews rejected the apocryphal books; I wont fail to notice this quote in your post: “The term apocryphan signifies “that which is hidden” or “concealed”– some intimate secret shared only by the chosen few.” Poetics of the [size=14pt]Gnostic[/size] Universe: Narrative And Cosmology in the Apocryphon of John By Zlatko Plese page 7 The highlighted were the brain behind some of the contaminated gospel that were NOT canonized (God will always preserve His Word). Gnostics and their antics were active at the time of the Apostles and the latter warned against them (Colossians, 1 John). Hence shall we stay with the reliable sources then? 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Demmzy15(m): 12:14am On Aug 11, 2015 |
Scholar8200: The truth we want is what was Joseph's age when he got married to 12year old Mary? God remains the same, dispensations don't! Some of the practices then were allowed because: OK this is just like abrogation, this I'll keep for future reference. Early marriages surely wasn't one of the practices that was abrogated. I showed that from the beginning: “Betrothal, or engagement, generally occurred at the age eight or nine. Jewish girls typically married at age eleven or twelve and boys at about thirteen or fourteen. (In Germany and France, Christian girls typically married at twelve or thirteen, and boys were usually in their late teens or twenties.)… (Marriage in Ashkenazic).” The History of the Jewish People: A Story of Tradition And Change By Jonathan B. Krasner, Jonathan D. Sarnapage volume 1 page 83 Steven M. Lowenstein Professor of Jewish History “The next great life cycle event in Jewish life after the bar Mirzvah is marriage. In most traditional societies (Jewish and Non-Jewish), marriages were arranged between families, with only the most perfunctory consultation with the couple to-be, and often involved complex financial arrangements such as dowries and trousseaus. In the [size=15pt]middle ages[/size] the age at marriage seems to have been around puberty throughout the Jewish world. …” Hope you're seeing this with your own eyes, early marriages occurred. You are presenting no ages for me, the bible you inclined to doesn't present an age. So why criticise external sources in which you have no prove that specific part was altered?! How many christians have claimed to be acting on Numbers 31:18 today? How many Israelites have claimed to be acting on Num 31:18 today? I dunno, it might have occurred in which I don't know. I don't have time to researching that. The final note is that the event occurred and God didn't object. Well i've brought my own samples from the Bible; wish you could bring yours thence too! How can I go to the Bible to prove a 70+ is still sexually active? Is the bible now a scientific study book?! The oldest father from India gave birth to his first son at 94 and second at 96(not a mistake), so what's hard to prove there. If biblical David couldn't perform at 70, then I think that's a problem. "Healthy individuals can remain sexually active and interested well into their 70s, 80s, and 90s, if they choose to. And an active sex life may help keep you young. Some age-related physical changes may be unavoidable, it's true, but these changes don't have to interfere with sexual intimacy." https://www.sharecare.com/health/mens-health/article/never-too-old-great-sex As you can see a man can still perform sex till 90, so what was wrong with biblical David? At this link http://historum.com/american-history/34737-elderly-soldiers-american-civil-war.html men in their 60s, 70s and even 80s fought wars. So what's the proving about?! How do we verify the highlighted? Are there any sources apart from the Apocrypha? I've presented my points from the apocryphal, so it's your duty to confirm if they're wrong. I've done my part by proving from the apocryphal, you have to refute me by showing me that their ages are spurious. Remember you said: "Implication is that apocrypha are not part of the Bible and were a mixture of truth culled from the latter and traditions, the evidence of which were non-existent!" If there's no way you can show I'm wrong about their ages, then I'm sorry. Because the apocryphal still contains some truth in them. The link you snapped was embedded in the one I posted from the original websites hence I was more focused on it:https://carm.org/why-apocrypha-not-in-bible. I actually included the source just in case you desire to verify the truth of what was quoted. Ok For example, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm starts with: I perfectly understand you, my point of contention is; since the bible didn't mention their ages, then we're free to go further. I want to know their ages and I found them in a Christian document. Going further to the marriage section of Joseph in which I quoted in my last post, I found this: "These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael's "Espousals of the Virgin"  , are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord's brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God."As you can see, it is an accepted fact that Joseph was an old man. The reason I highlighted was given, hope you get it? Meaning the most reliable source is the gospels of Matthew and Luke! When it comes to matters of faith, we cannot enlist the contents of any source that bares damning errors/heresies simply because it agrees with us; what do you think? The ages of men is not a matter of faith, I'm not looking into the apocryphal for issues about strengthen my faith and believe to God but the ages of Mary and Joseph in which the bible failed to mention. I used the Muslim hadeeth as an example, it contains errors because it's human work but not all are to be condemned. There still many parts in which contains truth Muslims use till this day. Scholars have even agreed that if a part of an hadeeth is know to be fabricated but the content is good, then there's no harm in adhering to them. We've classified the hadeeth into three categories; Authentic, Good and Weak- this three main classifications helps to know whether the hadeeth is trustworthy. Of the contents of these books as regards Mary's parents (Gospel of James), this was written: OK what of the ages of Mary and Joseph? If nobody knows about her parents that's fine, maybe because she was less important until the birth of Jesus. But what of herself, she can't possibly be a legend or tradition, even with the "acclaimed" crucifixion of Jesus she must have been famous with that. So her age with that of Joseph can't be a legend! No wonder the jews rejected the apocryphal books; I don't get... Do you mean their own apocryphal or yours?! I wont fail to notice this quote in your post: I'm fully aware of that, but this has nothing to do with the "ordinary" ages of Joseph and Mary. The bible doesn't provide us with ages, so where do we run to? We can't run to a supposed speculations, we go to a source that is close to the Bible. Moreover, if that source is doubtful, then you have to prove that. You said the apocryphal contains some truth in them, so therefore it can't be discarded like the way you want it to. Hence shall we stay with the reliable sources then? What reliable sources provided their ages when it's an established fact that Jewish women married early? 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by plainbibletruth: 8:13am On Aug 11, 2015 |
Demzy is showing the extent Muslims go to try to discredit the Bible and its stories and people in order to justify islam's immorality and rot. Making up stories did not start from Demzy. It started from the prophet they worship - Mohammed. Most stories in the Quran were taken from sources other than their true origin. See: https://www.nairaland.com/2489382/where-did-mohammeds-stories-come We point to islam's holy books to show the decadent nature of his religion but Demzy can only run to any source - true or false - to satisfy himself that if others have been said to have done it then it must be ok. How demmzy wants to prove that marriage to teenagers JUSTIFIES Mohammed's abuse (even in today's standards) of a 6 - 9 year-old beats the imagination. It shows the extent to which his warped mind can go. That's all he's trying to do! Here is a role model of Islam behaving less than a common man and demmzy is clapping for him. Even when he was shown that: "Implication is that apocrypha are not part of the Bible and were a mixture of truth culled from the latter and traditions, the evidence of which were non-existent!" he still CHOOSES which item he wants to present as true and which ones to disregard. It doesn't occur to him that the claim RIGHT THERE is that evidence for the stories are NON-EXISTENT! As long as he diverts attention AWAY from his prophet's abnormal sexual lifestyle he's fulfilling 'his master's will'. He too can then engage in same and feel no qualms about. After all if his PROPHET DID IT why can't he. 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Demmzy15(m): 3:35pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:Bla Bla Bla Bla, spewing venomous rants as usual. Your last post on this thread https://www.nairaland.com/2489382/where-did-mohammeds-stories-come would be answered soon....Insha'Allah. I don't know why you're pained, always sounding emotional. 1 Like |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by plainbibletruth: 5:09pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
Demmzy15:It's you who strikethrough posts that is displaying emotion. Instead of responding you're reacting with your emotions. Are you 'consulting' with 'experts' before you answer my post that you referred to? Go ahead! Your tactics are clear to any observant person. One is this: whenever you have no answer to a post you strike-trough and then make irrelevant comment or none at all. Why don't you, for now, answer the post here instead of talking about some other post? Maybe it's because you know the facts but you're unwilling to admit the truth. "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs" - Jonah 2:8 |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Belvine33(f): 5:23pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
If you don't know anything about a religion, shut the f.uck up! why is it paining you? If you are not interested in learning, face yours and leave ours alone! 1 Like |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Demmzy15(m): 5:49pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
plainbibletruth: 1 Like |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Annunaki(m): 7:58pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
Belvine33: Which sane person will want to learn about a terrorist Religion that is inspired by satan himself. |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Belvine33(f): 8:39pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
Annunaki:And I said if you don't want to learn about it, leave the religion alone. |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by plainbibletruth: 9:39pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
[quote author=Demmzy15 post=36852011][/quote]  |
| Re: Pure Description Of Islam by Demmzy15(m): 9:43pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:Hope you're alright?! Anyways lemme join you and laugh, let's cheer up |
Happy Birthday To Pastor Chris Oyakhilome D.Sc D.D / Wearing The Hijab Makes Me Feel Liberated Not Oppressed / Which Came First. Rosary Or Islam Prayer Beeds (tesbih)
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