Kamxin:


The Catholic church with the help of the holy spirit(John 16:13) produce infallible doctrines that have stood the test of 2000 years history of the church.

catholic church produced INFALLIBLE DOCTRINE, yet catholics flout the doctrine they handed down! Or was the doctrine for others outside the catholics? Just asking

preetyb:

Lol. You just want me to keep talking Anyways no.

Now see how much damage private interpretation of the Bible can cause?

You thought you knew what you were talking about. You said it with so much forcefulness. You even said my name is sorry, as a result.

All along, you were grossly ignorant of what you were talking about. You were contradicting the same bible you said even a child can see, read and understand better than Catholics. And you contradicted the bible with arrogant ignorance.

It turns out even a Catholic "child" knows more than you.

Just go to the mirror and look at yourself!

nseke:
catholic church produced INFALLIBLE DOCTRINE, yet catholics flout the doctrine they handed down! Or was the doctrine for others outside the catholics? Just asking

What do you mean by the bold?

nseke:
catholic church produced INFALLIBLE DOCTRINE, yet catholics flout the doctrine they handed down! Or was the doctrine for others outside the catholics? Just asking

Please, do not make ambiguous statements. You say Catholic Church produce INFALLIBLE DOCTRINE and yet they flout it. Can you give us an example so we can discuss?

It would be better that way.

preetyb:


Do u think that the catholic church have a perfect doctrine?

Christian, if you are ashamed to answer my questions (which I have asked three times), just say so... instead of pretending you didn't see it, then you ask me a question to side-step my question.

Jolliano:


Exactly. Christ said I will build my Church. Not churches.

Therefore, there can only be one Church and it must have existed right from the time of the Christ and the Apostles down to our time.

Question is : Which Church is that?

If you think catholic is that church then u lie. Cus they worship the image of mary which is idolatry. So just stop deceiving yourself and follow what is written in the bible. Not even your pope can change what has has already be written in the bible. If u want to carry church on ur head and forget the truth written in the bible then that is ur own palaver.

italo:


Now see how much damage private interpretation of the Bible can cause?

You thought you knew what you were talking about. You said it with so much forcefulness. You even said my name is sorry, as a result.

All along, you were grossly ignorant of what you were talking about. You were contradicting the same bible you said even a child can see, read and understand better than Catholics. And you contradicted the bible with arrogant ignorance.

It turns out even a Catholic "child" knows more than you.

Just go to the mirror and look at yourself!

I know what I say but you ve refuse to see the truth because u ve been brainwashed into believing that ur doctrine is flawless. U claim your church have it all but anyone except people like u can see how u ve turn mary to ur mediator and ur God. If you think u know so much why then do u stick to what is contrary to the word of God.
You and your church want to set standard for God and tell him you understand the bible more than him that gave those commandment. You better repent from idolatry before it is too late. The impeccable and infallible pope indeed

Jolliano:


Please, do not make ambiguous statements. You say Catholic Church produce INFALLIBLE DOCTRINE and yet they flout it. Can you give us an example so we can discuss?

It would be better that way.

i wouldn't want to argue the bible but for sake of you question- hope i quoted a post,and as it is,i know the catholics believes are outside the of bible provision oga- the worship and bowing before a graven image, the catholics pray through mother mary etc etc which are against the bible provisions yet you have boldly argued here or boasted you catholics preceded the bible and your eventual compilation of the bible.

italo:


What do you mean by the bold?

what i mean is, if a person or group of persons put forward a document which they believe in,it would only be stating the obvious that the sanctity of such work should sacrosanct at least to the group of person.

preetyb:

If you think catholic is that church then u lie. Cus they worship the image of mary which is idolatry. So just stop deceiving yourself and follow what is written in the bible. Not even your pope can change what has has already be written in the bible. If u want to carry church on ur head and forget the truth written in the bible then that is ur own palaver.

1. What is worship?
2. What did God command us to do as a sign of worship?
3. Do we give that worship to Mary?
4. How do we worship Mary?

Please be specific in your answers.

[quote author=Jolliano post=40689718]

1. What is worship?
2. What did God command us to do as a sign of worship?
3. Do we give that worship to Mary?
4. How do we worship Mary?

Please be specific in your answers.[/quote
You are just looking for a way to justify what u have believe.
besides u know everything so it will be better if u answer your questions yourself. No matter how much you deny the truth, the truth will still ring its bell in your mind. Man Can not deceive God but himself.

nseke:
i wouldn't want to argue the bible but for sake of you question- hope i quoted a post,and as it is,i know the catholics believes are outside the of bible provision oga- the worship and bowing before a graven image, the catholics pray through mother mary etc etc which are against the bible provisions yet you have boldly argued here or boasted you catholics preceded the bible and your eventual compilation of the bible.

Okay. At least you are specific.

1. WORSHIP MARY
Catholics don't worship Mary. That is just a claim everybody likes to make because they need to discredit the Church. Every doctrine of the Catholic Church is open to everyone and is more than well documented and not hidden. So if we actually worshiped Mary, the Catholic Church would tell you that we worship Mary. Why would we be denying it or believe it and refuse to teach it? Can you point to any Catholic teaching that says Mary is God?

We honour Mary and not worship her. Point to any Catholic Prayer that refers to Mary as God.

2. Bowing DOWN before graven image.
When God gave the ten Commandments, he said do not make any image to be Worshiped in place of me. He did not mean the making of image but the worship of image.

Put the bowing down in context, it means bow down as in worship the image and not bow down as a physical gesture. Read 1 Sam 20:41, David BOWED 3 times! Was he worshiping Jonathan or would you count that as idolatry?
King Solomon bowed before his Mother, would that be idolatry?
Read more of bowing in GEN 33:3, Luke 24:5 and more than fifty other places.

Yorubas prostrate when greeting which is even worse than the Asians bowing. Would that be idolatry?

Catholics do not bow because of the image. Catholics bow a lot when we pray. So because they are always paintings and other Christian artworks around us, it is easy to assume that we are bowing to them. But if you actually know the Catholic belief, you would know that we do not do what you accuse us of.

3. Did I lie about preceding the Bible and Compiling it? NO. That is a fact and only liars would actually deny that.

[quote author=preetyb post=40690057][/quote]
I asked questions. You no answer but instead accuse me of trying to justify my beliefs. How come?

Since Jesus gave the Truth to the Apostle and we all agree that the Early Christians were true Christians. Why don't you go to the Writings of the Church Fathers(Early Christians) and show us if they believed what we believe or not.

Try and read the quotes from the Protestant reformers on this site first and see what they had to say.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/mary.htm

Kamxin:
@op
The Catholic church was not made for the bible, rather the bible was made by the Catholic church for the Catholic church.


Catholic church worshipped Jesus hundreds of years before they compiled the new testament of the bible where the words of Christ were authenticated.
So I am still amazed how some people out there would abandon the church because the church have produced an infallible book called bible, instead of proclaiming the church infallible.

The word of God is spirit, so it is only with spirit you will decode what God is saying. Christ sent the holy spirit to the Catholic church, which has led her to all thruth(john 16:13). The bible the Catholic church gave you is a piece of truth, the whole embodiment of truth is in the Catholic church.

Interpretation of the bible is not your job, the bible was written in Greek and Latin, so anything you try to do with translated versions especially English versions is bound to be wrong.

I pity some people who stay inside their room to produce interpretation of the bible, when they know the holy spirit cannot give two different interpretation of the same passage or contradict what it gave to the Catholic church 2000 years ago. Invention of churches is against the will of Holy spirit (John 17: 23), and it is a top scandal for the most holy cause.

@op do not listen to mushroom interpreters on this forum, they have no doctrine, but invent improvise doctrines to suit nomadic transitions. The word of God is static and Catholic doctrines are static, none has contradicted the other in its 2000 years in existence. So don't shake at all.

In as much as I would't want to ague on things of the Spirit to avoid blasphemy, I really cannot overlook this one.Do you say that Catholic Church is superior to the Bible? Well, it depend on if you really know the true Church that was instituted by the Apostle on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). What you are made to belief to be the first church today-Catholic- was an institution brought out by the Romans to water down this 'One True Church of Acts 2. Read the Book of Acts very well and you will know that it was the Romans who later founded Catholic that were the prime persecutors of the early Apostles.Apostle Paul who was their Son suffered much.

To say that Catholic Church own the Bible and remain superior to it is not true. Is like saying that a lexicographer who collect words as used in a particular language together to form a dictionary is the final authority owner of the content of the dictionary. This cannot be correct because he is not the owner of those words that make up the dictionary.

Catholics cannot be superior to the Bible because they are not the owners of the words in there. They only gathered the manuscripts as written by the various Apostles 'Who from the beginning were the eye witnesses', Prophets who received their message from God and some accomplice who studied from first principle - read Acts 1:1-8.

So my brother, if your priests tell you they are superior to the Bible, please ask him if that happened since when. Was it after their persecution of the writers or before? The Romans were the people that did not want to here the name of Christ in their nation because of Emperor worship. How then did they become the RIGHTFUL carrier of His gospel? It is impossibly!!! They are out there to bring what the bible call 'SWIFT DESTRUCTION' to the simple minded. They are pure Idol worshipers please.

donsufia:

So my brother, if your priests tell you they are superior to the Bible, please ask him if that happened since when. Was it after their persecution of the writers or before? The Romans were the people that did not want to here the name of Christ in their nation because of Emperor worship. How then did they become the RIGHTFUL carrier of His gospel? It is impossibly!!! They are out there to bring what the bible call 'SWIFT DESTRUCTION' to the simple minded. They are pure Idol worshipers please.

Oga, The Jews too did not participate in Emperor worship. How come we do not have tales about the persecution of Jews like we have of the christians?

PastorAIO:


Oga, The Jews too did not participate in Emperor worship. How come we do not have tales about the persecution of Jews like we have of the christians?

My brother, thank you for this question. They were two major forces that opposed the Christians- The Jews and the Romans. That the earlier were not persecuted by the later was because there was an organised and some what agreed system of government that existed between them.The Romans were the all and all even in Jewish land. The Jews only served as governors in their provinces, eg Festus, Agrippa and Herod (Acts 12).

The Jews rejected Christ as prophesied by Isaiah. They killed Jesus. Persecuted the Apostles, reported them to the Romans, accused them falsely even till this day. However, Christians got the wrath of the Romans when they refused to bow down to emperor Nero who proclaimed himself more than God. Remember Paul's imprisonment in Rome in Acts 22? This was where he wrote some of his epistles like Timothy and Titus.

Finally, the Jews and Roman's romance did not finally go down well. They were finally destroyed by the Romans in AD70. That is to say they later had their fair share of the Roman's persecution when Jerusalem, Galilee and other towns of theirs were destroyed. ( If you need the full history of this incidence from Josephus, the eye witness to this destruction, I can give you.)

Where do I start , let me appreciate the presence of protestants on this thread for it is not easy to be born a protestant, I can only advise everyone to crossexamine his or her religion to see its fruits, because the fruit of a tree cannot be found far from it.

Evaluating the responses from protestants so far, I have come to notice that they have found it hard to denounce any Catholic doctrine, but denouncing non Catholic doctrines. Offering personal opinion which they invented with common sense where they think the Catholic church is not right.
But I will remind you that the church of God is above personal opinion, for the way of God is not the way of man.The will of God is not determined by common sense

donsufia:
In as much as I would't want to ague on things of the Spirit to avoid blasphemy, I really cannot overlook this one.Do you say that Catholic Church is superior to the Bible? Well, it depend on if you really know the true Church that was instituted by the Apostle on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). What you are made to belief to be the first church today-Catholic- was an institution brought out by the Romans to water down this 'One True Church of Acts 2. Read the Book of Acts very well and you will know that it was the Romans who later founded Catholic that were the prime persecutors of the early Apostles.Apostle Paul who was their Son suffered much.

Kudos! Good write up
But I am sorry, I have to say this .
By your first sentence, you shot yourself on the foot. Meaning that other sentences were left looking for a skin of context to cover its bare bones.

donsufia:
My brother, thank you for this question. They were two major forces that opposed the Christians- The Jews and the Romans. That the earlier were not persecuted by the later was because there was an organised and some what agreed system of government that existed between them.The Romans were the all and all even in Jewish land. The Jews only served as governors in their provinces, eg Festus, Agrippa and Herod (Acts 12).

The Jews rejected Christ as prophesied by Isaiah. They killed Jesus. Persecuted the Apostles, reported them to the Romans, accused them falsely even till this day. However, Christians got the wrath of the Romans when they refused to bow down to emperor Nero who proclaimed himself more than God. Remember Paul's imprisonment in Rome in Acts 22? This was where he wrote some of his epistles like Timothy and Titus.

Finally, the Jews and Roman's romance did not finally go down well. They were finally destroyed by the Romans in AD70. That is to say they later had their fair share of the Roman's persecution when Jerusalem, Galilee and other towns of theirs were destroyed. ( If you need the full history of this incidence from Josephus, the eye witness to this destruction, I can give you.)

Okay. So what you are saying is that the true Church disappeared or was destroyed by the romans, abi?

and the christianity under and after Constantine was different from what the Apostles and those that were there before Constantine, abi?

Let me now ask o. Council of Nicae (where Constantine who was still a pagan was present and did not contribute at all) held in 325AD. The Catholic Church compiled the Bible In 382AD. If the Catholic Church was/is an evil and false Church, why do you all accept the NT books they chose as Truth and Word of God? How did the Evil Church compile the word of God?

donsufia:
In as much as I would't want to ague on things of the Spirit to avoid blasphemy, I really cannot overlook this one.Do you say that Catholic Church is superior to the Bible? Well, it depend on if you really know the true Church that was instituted by the Apostle on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). What you are made to belief to be the first church today-Catholic- was an institution brought out by the Romans to water down this 'One True Church of Acts 2. Read the Book of Acts very well and you will know that it was the Romans who later founded Catholic that were the prime persecutors of the early Apostles.Apostle Paul who was their Son suffered much.

To say that Catholic Church own the Bible and remain superior to it is not true. Is like saying that a lexicographer who collect words as used in a particular language together to form a dictionary is the final authority owner of the content of the dictionary. This cannot be correct because he is not the owner of those words that make up the dictionary.

Catholics cannot be superior to the Bible because they are not the owners of the words in there. They only gathered the manuscripts as written by the various Apostles 'Who from the beginning were the eye witnesses', Prophets who received their message from God and some accomplice who studied from first principle - read Acts 1:1-8.

So my brother, if your priests tell you they are superior to the Bible, please ask him if that happened since when. Was it after their persecution of the writers or before? The Romans were the people that did not want to here the name of Christ in their nation because of Emperor worship. How then did they become the RIGHTFUL carrier of His gospel? It is impossibly!!! They are out there to bring what the bible call 'SWIFT DESTRUCTION' to the simple minded. They are pure Idol worshipers please.

I'm not sure this guy dey read wetin him dey write. Now now, you have over contradicted yourself.

1. The Apostles did not institute The Church. Christ did. Matt 16:18 and that institution occured at The Cross where the final EXODUS occured. John 3:14 and John 12:32.

2. The Church already replaced Judas before Pentecost and so the Church was already in existence.

3. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church and you are saying that the Romans prevailed over the church? So Jesus lied or what? Explain what happened to the true Church.

4. Lexicographer and Dictionary.
Regardless of the words in the dictionary, accepting the meaning the Lexicographer placed there would require you to trust the Lexicographer to be truthful and to be correct.

Abi na all dictionary be the same. Oxford and Michael West na the same?

5. The Lexicographer obviously predates the Dictionary. He may not predate all the words inside the dictionary but he predates the dictionary itself.

You know obviously that The Church predates the Bible. After all, Saul was persecuting the Church before he became the Paul that wrote more than 8 books out of 27 NT books!
Seeing that, you have shifted base to saying The Catholic Church is different from the Apostolic Church(Church of the Apostles). This is also funny. Because then the question is who compiled the Truth in the Bible, the Catholic or Apostolic Church?

You said that Romans persecuted Christians because of Emperor worship. I said but Jews did not worship emperor either and we don't heard about any Jewish persecution. You say the Romans and Jews were 'romancing'. So obvious the Romans don't take emperor worship so seriously if they are ready to over look it for a mere romance.

Please let me ask my question again: Christians and Jews (and there was no difference between them in these days) both refused Emperor worship. But today we hear about Christians persecutions but we hear nothing about Jewish persecutions.

donsufia:
My brother, thank you for this question. They were two major forces that opposed the Christians- The Jews and the Romans. That the earlier were not persecuted by the later was because there was an organised and some what agreed system of government that existed between them.The Romans were the all and all even in Jewish land. The Jews only served as governors in their provinces, eg Festus, Agrippa and Herod (Acts 12).

The Jews rejected Christ as prophesied by Isaiah. They killed Jesus. Persecuted the Apostles, reported them to the Romans, accused them falsely even till this day. However, Christians got the wrath of the Romans when they refused to bow down to emperor Nero who proclaimed himself more than God. Remember Paul's imprisonment in Rome in Acts 22? This was where he wrote some of his epistles like Timothy and Titus.

Finally, the Jews and Roman's romance did not finally go down well. They were finally destroyed by the Romans in AD70. That is to say they later had their fair share of the Roman's persecution when Jerusalem, Galilee and other towns of theirs were destroyed. ( If you need the full history of this incidence from Josephus, the eye witness to this destruction, I can give you.)

donsufia:
In as much as I would't want to ague on things of the Spirit to avoid blasphemy, I really cannot overlook this one.Do you say that Catholic Church is superior to the Bible? Well, it depend on if you really know the true Church that was instituted by the Apostle on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). What you are made to belief to be the first church today-Catholic- was an institution brought out by the Romans to water down this 'One True Church of Acts 2. Read the Book of Acts very well and you will know that it was the Romans who later founded Catholic that were the prime persecutors of the early Apostles.Apostle Paul who was their Son suffered much.
To say that Catholic Church own the Bible and remain superior to it
Catholics cannot be superior to the Bible because they are not the owners of the words in there. They only gathered the manuscripts as written by the various Apostles 'Who from the beginning were the eye witnesses', Prophets who received their message from God and some accomplice who studied from first principle - read Acts 1:1-8.

By your first sentence you displayed a very poor grappling of the word " church". This is because the Catholic church was officially commissioned by the Holy spirit himself on the day of Pentecost.
There is no bible without the Catholic church. I repeat, There is no bible without the Catholic church, The church cannot be separated from God, neither can you separate the word of God from God Himself

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.(Colossians 1:24)Members of the Body of Christ follow Christ as their Head (Ephesians 1:22-23).

The church cannot be separated from the God Himself because Christ is the head and Church the body and head cannot be separate from the body. The word of God solely belongs to the Church which God established with his sending of the Holy spirit.

Members of the Body of Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).
It is the through the Holy spirit which Christ sent to his church that the word of God comes. The holy spirit has led the Catholic church to all truth. (john 16:13). The bible the Catholic church gave you is just a piece of it as recorded in the bible, the whole embodiment of the word of God is found in the Catholic church.

for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body(Ephesians 5:29-30).

It can't be more obvious that the church is infallible as the as the Holy spirit is. This is why the church is called holy and cannot deviate or be led astray(Matthew 16:18) because owner is God Himself and He lives in his church.
Invention of churches is a war against the Holy spirit and therefore against God's will(John 17: 23). Fighting the Catholic church is equivalent to fighting the Holy spirit, the loser is always obvious starting from Martin Luther.

donsufia:

Finally, the Jews and Roman's romance did not finally go down well. They were finally destroyed by the Romans in AD70. That is to say they later had their fair share of the Roman's persecution when Jerusalem, Galilee and other towns of theirs were destroyed. ( If you need the full history of this incidence from Josephus, the eye witness to this destruction, I can give you.)

You seems to be a good writer, but I doubt if you can be a good historian. You brag about the account of one man called Josephus, possibly you saw on the Internet without any proof the man existed at all. Even the account itself, no proof that it has been transferred to you without being tampered with. Even the translators no proof of good work, no proof of being independent, no proof of understanding of another Century language.

This sums up your understanding of history, you swallow hook, line and sinker. Some people invoke Wikipedia at the slightest of disturbance as if it is not the innovation of two men few years ago. But be informed that nobody know history more than the Catholic church. The entire European rely on what it has received from the world's oldest surviving institution.

donsufia:
My brother, thank you for this question. They were two major forces that opposed the Christians- The Jews and the Romans. That the earlier were not persecuted by the later was because there was an organised and some what agreed system of government that existed between them.The Romans were the all and all even in Jewish land. The Jews only served as governors in their provinces, eg Festus, Agrippa and Herod (Acts 12).
The Jews rejected Christ as prophesied by Isaiah. They killed Jesus. Persecuted the Apostles, reported them to the Romans, accused them falsely even till this day. However, Christians got the wrath of the Romans when they refused to bow down to emperor Nero who proclaimed himself more than God. Remember Paul's imprisonment in Rome in Acts 22? This was where he wrote some of his epistles like Timothy and Titus.
Finally, the Jews and Roman's romance did not finally go down well. They were finally destroyed by the Romans in AD70. That is to say they later had their fair share of the Roman's persecution when Jerusalem, Galilee and other towns of theirs were destroyed. ( If you need the full history of this incidence from Josephus, the eye witness to this destruction, I can give you.)

Your arguments are wrong on many counts.
1. The Jews and Christians did not oppose Rome in the same way. The Romans did not have a monotheism (Emperor only worship). They had a polytheism in which the Emperor was the only living god.

Jutt like yorubas have about 401 traditional gods with Ooni of Ife being the only living one..

The Jews did not rebel agaisnt Roman Religion (after all there were sacrifices offered daily to Caesar in Jerusalem), they rebelled and revolted physically against the Roman Rule.

Christians rebelled in the religious sense only because they believed in ONE God (Monotheism) and rejected both the emperor and every other roman god. This is why from the beginning of Christianity, We have always been persecuted. Matt 11:12.

2. Knowing this why would Constantine (An Emperor who is supposed to be worshiped and who believes in Polytheism) institute a religion at the Council of Nicea which would in the same council profess a creed that says "We believe in ONE God, The Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth and In Jesus Christ, His ONLY-begotten son, born of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God....."

3. Christianity already existed in Rome before Constantine. Think I'm joking? 1 Peter 5:13. Babylon = Rome.

Here are quotes from Saint Ignatius of Antioch that show that The Catholic Church already existed before Constantine. And funny enough, St Igantius himself was the first person to call the Church CATHOLIC!
Ignatius was the third bishop of Antioch and died in 110AD when the Romans put him in an arena with hungry lions to be eaten.

"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." — Letter to the
Smyrnaeans, Ch 8

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the greatness of the Most High Father and in Jesus Christ, his only son; to the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is; to the Church which also holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and because you hold the PRESIDENCY of love, named after Christ and named after the Father; here therefore do I salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father". — Letter to the Romans, Intro

"In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him." Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2.

"Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you.
They were apostles and I am a convict. They were
free, and I even to the present time am a slave." —
Letter to the Romans, Ch 4

Jolliano:


Okay. At least you are specific.

1. WORSHIP MARY
Catholics don't worship Mary. That is just a claim everybody likes to make because they need to discredit the Church. Every doctrine of the Catholic Church is open to everyone and is more than well documented and not hidden. So if we actually worshiped Mary, the Catholic Church would tell you that we worship Mary. Why would we be denying it or believe it and refuse to teach it? Can you point to any Catholic teaching that says Mary is God?

We honour Mary and not worship her. Point to any Catholic Prayer that refers to Mary as God.

2. Bowing DOWN before graven image.
When God gave the ten Commandments, he said do not make any image to be Worshiped in place of me. He did not mean the making of image but the worship of image.

Put the bowing down in context, it means bow down as in worship the image and not bow down as a physical gesture. Read 1 Sam 20:41, David BOWED 3 times! Was he worshiping Jonathan or would you count that as idolatry?
King Solomon bowed before his Mother, would that be idolatry?
Read more of bowing in GEN 33:3, Luke 24:5 and more than fifty other places.

Yorubas prostrate when greeting which is even worse than the Asians bowing. Would that be idolatry?

Catholics do not bow because of the image. Catholics bow a lot when we pray. So because they are always paintings and other Christian artworks around us, it is easy to assume that we are bowing to them. But if you actually know the Catholic belief, you would know that we do not do what you accuse us of.

3. Did I lie about preceding the Bible and Compiling it? NO. That is a fact and only liars would actually deny that.

oga you tried very much to convince me otherwise but its not working right,lets put things in perspective- when one bows with the intent of greeting and praying,could they be doing the same thing? When catholics say THE HOLY ROSARY IS A POWERFUL WEAPON to put the demons to flight and keep oneself from sin against Jesus' victory on the cross,aren't you worshiping that which will give you victory over life challange? I would only tell you to have a rethink with your bold aclaimation of preceding the bible,because the bible set the standard of church. When catholics say they are the first,it makes a good student of the bible to squint at you. Why,do you really understand what church means? The event of the pentecost in jerusalem and the converts,were they not a church? Oga, i have followed because i believe it would help us rethink,but when it becomes a case of sticking to ones' gun count me out.

nseke:
oga you tried very much to convince me otherwise but its not working right,lets put things in perspective- when one bows with the intent of greeting and praying,could they be doing the same thing? When catholics say THE HOLY ROSARY IS A POWERFUL WEAPON to put the demons to flight and keep oneself from sin against Jesus' victory on the cross,aren't you worshiping that which will give you victory over life challange? I would only tell you to have a rethink with your bold aclaimation of preceding the bible,because the bible set the standard of church. When catholics say they are the first,it makes a good student of the bible to squint at you. Why,do you really understand what church means? The event of the pentecost in jerusalem and the converts,were they not a church? Oga, i have followed because i believe it would help us rethink,but when it becomes a case of sticking to ones' gun count me out.

1. It seems you do not know the difference between Rosary and Chaplet. The Chaplet is the bead. The Rosary is a prayer made up of Our Father, Hail Mary... And Glory Be....

2. Good. They were a Church. The question is which Church? The more than 35,000 Protestants or the One Catholic Church?

3. Which Church compiled the bible? Even Martin Luther, your protestant reformer said and admitted it!

4. If you say it wasn't the Catholic Church that compiled the Bible, then tell us who compiled the Bible. Enlighten us!

5. Bowing down is a sign of respect in most cultures. Catholics bow down as a sign of respect for what and who the image represents. What is the issue with that?

If the Catholic Church wanted to worship images, we would teach the members to worship the images. Now, can you show me one Catholic Teaching that says worship the images or that the images are your gods and saviors? Why would we be denying what we believe?

nseke:
When catholics say THE HOLY ROSARY IS A POWERFUL WEAPON to put the demons to flight and keep oneself from sin against Jesus' victory on the cross,aren't you worshiping that which will give you victory over life challange? I would only tell you to have a rethink with your bold aclaimation of preceding the bible,because the bible set the standard of church. When catholics say they are the first,it makes a good student of the bible to squint at you.

The only problem I have with you is you find it hard to grapple the content of the topic you are dissecting.

The holy rosary is the word of God as your bible is the word of God. The content is in the bible, so as your bible IS A POWERFUL WEAPON to put the demons to flight and keep oneself from sin against Jesus, so is the rosary.

Jolliano:


1. It seems you do not know the difference between Rosary and Chaplet. The Chaplet is the bead. The Rosary is a prayer made up of Our Father, Hail Mary... And Glory Be....

2. Good. They were a Church. The question is which Church? The more than 35,000 Protestants or the One Catholic Church?

3. Which Church compiled the bible? Even Martin Luther, your protestant reformer said and admitted it!

4. If you say it wasn't the Catholic Church that compiled the Bible, then tell us who compiled the Bible. Enlighten us!

5. Bowing down is a sign of respect in most cultures. Catholics bow down as a sign of respect for what and who the image represents. What is the issue with that?

If the Catholic Church wanted to worship images, we would teach the members to worship the images. Now, can you show me one Catholic Teaching that says worship the images or that the images are your gods and saviors? Why would we be denying what we believe?

Rosary a prayer made to the FATHER using the chaplet-my greatgrandfather prayed to a god through certain image(s) just like your beads by whatever name. Praying to/through an image can't be more than a troubled soul falling at the feet of a graven images all over catholic premises to pour out ones budend heart. Whether you teach it or not is unquestionable in somuch as every catholics adherent pay obeisance to it. A man who greets by bowing is defferent from a man who is praying yet bow to an image,moreso,to intermediate between you and God,or are there no defferent between the two intention/purposes? Compiling doesn't mean pre-dating oga, a post has answered this(ref.to lexicologist)!remenber,i questioned your claim that church precedes bible-implying that the final authority lies with the church-our topic of discuss. The church is niether the catholic nor any named protestant church but a people who have believed in CHRIST JESUS AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOUR,fellowshipping with Christs' Spirit and bretheren-this niether a building, an institution nor a named congregation oga. It could be in a tent,a believes' house or even under a tree

donsufia:
Well, it depend on if you really know the true Church that was instituted by the Apostle on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). What you are made to belief to be the first church today-Catholic- was an institution brought out by the Romans to water down this 'One True Church of Acts 2. Read the Book of Acts very well and you will know that it was the Romans who later founded Catholic

Before I forget, so the Romans that killed Christ, apostles and disciples and any Christian on sight invented a church, because it is fighting a war with the one true church. this paradox is recorded in which book and stressed in which book.

And it end up watering down the true church, God Himself established.
Historian, I believe the internet have given you poor result, try again.

Kamxin:


The only problem I have with you is you find it hard to grapple the content of the topic you are dissecting.

The holy rosary is the word of God as your bible is the word of God. The content is in the bible, so as your bible IS A POWERFUL WEAPON to put the demons to flight and keep oneself from sin against Jesus, so is the rosary.

oga grappling the content seems to me tha you the one really challenged here-HOLY ROSARY Isn't the word of God and can't be equated to the word- holy rosary states thus hail mary...is that the word of God?teach me depth biblically,very read to learn

nseke:
oga grappling the content seems to me tha you the one really challenged here-HOLY ROSARY Isn't the word of God and can't be equated to the word- holy rosary states thus hail mary...is that the word of God?teach me depth biblically,very read to learn

"Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women" embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28)."

The word uttered by Angel Gabriel is the exact word of God.

Kamxin:


"Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women" embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28)."

The word uttered by Angel Gabriel is the exact word of God.

i wouldn't want to keep on with this oga with all respect: mary surely is not the only recorded person visited by angel and spoken good of in the bible!besides prayer isn't a patherned in a recorded format of an angel visitation message-pray to your heavenly Father as your need may be in my name...is the word of Christ sir. Please can you make reference to a particular prayer rendered in the bible starting,ending or in between that mary was hailed,or had the bible disrespected her?but surely read through bible,prayers rendered through Christ name is abound or is this one of the areas the church(catholic)supersides?if so pls count me out. Thanks