YourNemesis:




Damn!! Powerful Picture!

Yep, you got the right word.

'Powerful'

As far as human relations go, the Onipopo by age would be the Ooni's father o.

9jacrip:


Yep, you got the right word.

'Powerful'

As far as human relations go, the Onipopo by age would be the Ooni's father o.

This Ife we have today is symbolic and that is enough. I doubt if the other Obas will surrender under an Ooni. Also we can not go back to the old system and if we go back to the old system, you can be sure a whole new Ife will be built which will carry on the tradition under a new consensus. Afterall from the beginning of humanity there must have been hundreds of Ifes who earned the status by the dint of their contribution. This one too earned it in the past but it has declined.

lawani:


This Ife we have today is symbolic and that is enough. I doubt if the other Obas will surrender under an Ooni. Also we can not go back to the old system and if we go back to the old system, you can be sure a whole new Ife will be built which will carry on the tradition under a new consensus. Afterall from the beginning of humanity there must have been hundreds of Ifes who earned the status by the dint of their contribution. This one too earned it in the past but it has declined.

i don't think any one mentioned anything about an Oba surrendering or not. The point we are trying to make is that people should stop twisting history just to make their King more relevant than the others. If the Ife we have today is symbolic, then we might as well say other ancient Yoruba kingdoms like Owu, Oyo, Ado ekiti, Igboho, Jebu, orangun e.t.c are also symbolic since they all played an important part in Yoruba history.

lawani:


This Ife we have today is symbolic and that is enough. I doubt if the other Obas will surrender under an Ooni. Also we can not go back to the old system and if we go back to the old system, you can be sure a whole new Ife will be built which will carry on the tradition under a new consensus. Afterall from the beginning of humanity there must have been hundreds of Ifes who earned the status by the dint of their contribution. This one too earned it in the past but it has declined.

Present day Ife is one of the few towns on their original sites since inception. There's nothing symbolic here.

Nobody has to surrender to Ife.
It is generally agreed Ife is the mother-ship of most other thrones and they derive their historical authenticity and relevance from Ife. This in itself puts things in order, Ife at the top with other thrones trickling in order of hierarchy below.

I do not see any decline here, it still holds its position and relevance as far as Yoruba histort and spirituality goes.

Towns that thrived on military might can be said to have declined - Oyo, Ibadan and of course Ilesa .

Don't be a hater fam.

9jacrip:



Present day Ife is one of the few towns on their original sites since inception. There's nothing symbolic here.

Nobody has to surrender to Ife.
It is generally agreed Ife is the mother-ship of most other thrones and they derive their historical authenticity and relevance from Ife. This in itself puts things in order, Ife at the top with other thrones trickling in order of hierarchy below.

I do not see any decline here, it still holds its position and relevance as far as Yoruba histort and spirituality goes.

Towns that thrived on military might can be said to have declined - Oyo, Ibadan and of course Ilesa .

Don't be a hater fam.

In the past, a larger percentage of the Yoruba were from the Igbomokun that became Ife, as at 1000 AD, that would have been the case but today, the Oyo have the largest share while the original Ife controls like two LGs. During the Segi period, Ife was the Lagos, it was the only city producing bronze works, it was the center of civilization. Nowadays, Ife has declined. Go back to 1000 BC, Ife may have been in Ijumu in Kogi state, a fledgling metropolis, Ondo, Kwara, even Eastern Nigeria at various times.

This present Ife is a new Ife, not up to 2000 years old. That is not the original Ife site but a center to continue the tradition. The Ooni is the spiritual head of all, that is enough. The other nation states were sovereign states in their own right and all surpassed Ife at some point. Ife Ooni is also a nation state but the Oyo, Benin, Ijesa and etc have their own separate identities and governments which they hold separate from Ife.

lawani:


In the past, a larger percentage of the Yoruba were from the Igbomokun that became Ife, as at 1000 AD, that would have been the case but today, the Oyo have the largest share while the original Ife controls like two LGs. During the Segi period, Ife was the Lagos, it was the only city producing bronze works, it was the center of civilization. Nowadays, Ife has declined. Go back to 1000 BC, Ife may have been in Ijumu in Kogi state, a fledgling metropolis, Ondo, Kwara, even Eastern Nigeria at various times.

This present Ife is a new Ife, not up to 2000 years old. That is not the original Ife site but a center to continue the tradition. The Ooni is the spiritual head of all, that is enough. The other nation states were sovereign states in their own right and all surpassed Ife at some point. Ife Ooni is also a nation state but the Oyo, Benin, Ijesa and etc have their own separate identities and governments which they hold separate from Ife.

But the many excavations done and their datings dispute your claim here.

The bronze works, the Oranmiyan Obelisks, the many artefacts in the palace spanning as far as 350BCE


What are you saying this man?

And 'I/Ugbomokun' was the settlement the Ugbos moved to in presentday Ondo state after they left Mokuro in Ife.

From where they launched raids to kidnap Ife people till Moremi entered the picture.

Ugbomokun or Igbomokun was never Ife's name at anytime. Stop with the falsity.

9jacrip:


But the many excavations done and their datings disputes your claim here.

The bronze works, the Oranmiyan Obelisks, the many artefacts in the palace spanning 350BC.

What are you saying this man?

The bronze works are not up to 2000 years ago, maybe some other things are older by a bit but it all agrees with the fact that the present Ife is just the last successor in a series of Ifes. That should be always stated as it adds credibility

lawani:

The bronze works are not up to 2000 years ago, maybe some other things are older by a bit but it all agrees with the fact that the present Ife is just the last successor in a series of Ifes. That should be always stated as it adds credibility

The question is how many bronze heads do you know?

Opa Oranmiyan alone is way before 2000 years.

The same Ife has been the site with different phases of Ife as stated in Ifa.

No migration whatsoever.

The Ifa corpus speaks about Ot u Ife. There is Ife Oodaye and Ife Ooyelagbo. Are you saying Ile Ife approximates all those? Please there is a need for objectivity. The Yoruba calendar will be 10060th year by June 3 while this Ile Ife is not more than 2500 years at most. It is acknowwledged that 90 kings ruled in Ife before Oduduwa arrived. Saying everything started 51 Obas ago is doing a great disservice to the legacy you were mandated to preserve. This I see as shameful.

lawani:
The Ifa corpus speaks about Ot u Ife. There is Ife Oodaye and Ife Ooyelagbo. Are you saying Ile Ife approximates all those? Please there is a need for objectivity. The Yoruba calendar will be 10060th year by June 3 while this Ile Ife is not more than 2500 years at most. It is acknowwledged that 90 kings ruled in Ife before Oduduwa arrived. Saying everything started 51 Obas ago is doing a great disservice to the legacy you were mandated to preserve. This I see as shameful.

While many rulers might have ruled in Ife before the arrival of Oduduwa, is there anything that says that these kings ruled in another Ife other than the present one we all know?

YourNemesis:


While many rulers might have ruled in Ife before the arrival of Oduduwa, is there anything that says that these kings ruled in another Ife other than the present one we all know?

There are numerous Ife sites that were dated older than the present Ife. A new Ife was inaugurated 10060 years ago and that Ife has shifted locations pretty much.

lawani:
The Ifa corpus speaks about Ot u Ife. There is Ife Oodaye and Ife Ooyelagbo. Are you saying Ile Ife approximates all those? Please there is a need for objectivity. The Yoruba calendar will be 10060th year by June 3 while this Ile Ife is not more than 2500 years at most. It is acknowwledged that 90 kings ruled in Ife before Oduduwa arrived. Saying everything started 51 Obas ago is doing a great disservice to the legacy you were mandated to preserve. This I see as shameful.

And the same set of persons (Oduduwa and Obatala) existed in all phases of Ife you mentioned.

And Oreluere, Obatala were the last set of Ife Oodaye/Ooyelagbo before Oduduwa.

Their palaces/structures and personal effects are still in existence in Ile-Ife.

The Ife Oodaye and Ife Ooyelagbo as mentioned Ifa contains names of locations and persons which/whose relics are presentbat their sites in Ife.

I wonder how you came about the 2500 daye for Ile-Ife, care to share?

The many artefacts show Ile-Ife has been the site for different phases of Ife; you're yet to dispute this.

Furthermore, is Igbomokun still Ife?

Yoruba calendar will be 10600th, care to share a source for the dating? And for example when does the 10600th begin?

When is Yoruba new year?

Uncle, stop it.

lawani:

There are numerous Ife sites that were dated older than the present Ife. A new Ife was inaugurated 10060 years ago and that Ife has shifted locations pretty much.

Start listing these 10,000 Ife sites abeg.

9jacrip:


Start listing these 10,000 Ife sites abeg.

This debate is pedestrian my bro. Do you know that even Oyo that is a new identity has had several relocation of the capital? All of Iseyin, Igboho and etc were Oyo ile at one time or the other. The present Oyo was established by Alaafin Atiba (Ojo pa sekere mode). The Ijesha that was recently created has had more than four capitals.

What you need to know is that there was a time that Ife was the only Yoruba identity as a continuation of the tradition of the first point on Earth that had a terresrtrial civilization. During that time that everybody was Ife, the capital was moved around. That period began 10060 years ago. This present Ife was established around 2000 years ago, if we were still using the old tradition properly, Ife would have been relocated. Prior to 10060 years ago, there were earlier Ifes, maybe those were the Oodayes.

lawani:


This debate is pedestrian my bro. Do you know that even Oyo that is a new identity has had several relocation of the capital? All of Iseyin, Igboho and etc were Oyo ile at one time or the other. The present Oyo was established by Alaafin Atiba (Ojo pa sekere mode). The Ijesha that was recently created has had more than four capitals.

What you need to know is that there was a time that Ife was the only Yoruba identity as a continuation of the tradition of the first point on Earth that had a terresrtrial civilization. During that time that everybody was Ife, the capital was moved around. That period began 10060 years ago. This present Ife was established around 2000 years ago, if we were still using the old tradition properly, Ife would have been relocated. Prior to 10060 years ago, there were earlier Ifes, maybe those were the Oodayes.

Bro, you've not answered the question.

Historians generally agree Ile-Ife is one of the few places with their original sites; this is born out of the dating of the excavated artifacts in places around Ife but here you claim something different.

Oyo, Ijesa being moved does not mean Ife was moved.
Military oriented towns tend to move a lot so that premise is faulty and should not be entertained.

Ikire moved from Akire house in Ife, they moved to Ikire Ile which is towards Oba river going to Iwo before they moved to their present place. The ikire-ile is still within the present Ikire - they've not for once moved.

Ijebu Igbo has been on its original site since whenever.

Ile-Ife and Jesus began at the same time when records go to show Ile-Ife had existed way before Jesus and even predated Abraham?

Ile-Ife began 2000 years ago yet discoveries abound showing settlement and system going into way earlier periods?

9jacrip:


Bro, you've not answered the question.

Historians generally agree Ile-Ife is one of the few places with their original sites; this is born out of the dating of the excavated artifacts in places around Ife but here you claim something different.

Oyo, Ijesa being moved does not mean Ife was moved.
Military oriented towns tend to move a lot so that premise is faulty and should not be entertained.

Ikire moved from Akire house in Ife, they moved to Ikire Ile which is towards Oba river going to Iwo before they moved to their present place. The ikire-ile is still within the present Ikire - they've not for once moved.

Ijebu Igbo has been on its original site since whenever.

Ile-Ife and Jesus began at the same time when records go to show Ile-Ife had existed way before Jesus and even predated Abraham?

Ile-Ife began 2000 years ago yet discoveries abound showing settlement and system going into way earlier periods?

The Awujale has moved capital severally. Around 1000 AD, the capital was at Eredo in the present Lagos state, a place identified as the largest city in the medieval world. Both Ijebu ode and Ijebu Igbo are apparently new cities. The Awujale was headquartered in Eredo in the past and it was contemporary to an ancient Ife, when Oduduwa arrived, they married in instead of abdicating like others. You might think those ancient people lived in tiny villages but they actually lived in huge metropolises, built storey buildings and etc.

It is you people that keep dating Ife to 51 Kings ago, other people know it is 141 kings ago at various locations.

lawani:


The Awujale has moved capital severally. Around 1000 AD, the capital was at Eredo in the present Lagos state, a place identified as the largest city in the medieval world. Both Ijebu ode and Ijebu Igbo are apparently new cities. The Awujale was headquartered in Eredo in the past and it was contemporary to an ancient Ife, when Oduduwa arrived, they married in instead of abdicating like others. You might think those ancient people lived in tiny villages but they actually lived in huge metropolisesbuilt storey buildings and etc.

It is you people that keep dating Ife to 51 Kings ago, other people know it is 141 kings ago at various locations.

Does Ijebu Igbo use Awujale?

You keep muddling up everything.

What places was Ijebu Igbo moved to?

Ijebu Igbo is different from Ijebu Ode; the former precedes the latter by far.

If we keep limiting our kings to 51 but you (the other people) believe it is 141 then you must know Ife history more than Ifes, yes?

The 51 kings are all from Oduduwa's dynasty. Starting with Oduduwa himself.

Prior to that there have been up to 90 rulers of a confederacy of hamlets that existed independently of each other - the hamlets and their arrangements are still in Ife.

No migration and nothing was shifted.

Let us not go back and forth unnecessarily, it is becoming boring.

My questions:

1. If Ife Oodaye, Ooyelagbo and Otu were separate towns that existed in different places before the present Ife, kindly tell us where these town existed. Remember you gave a very false claim of Igbomolokun to have been Ife?

2. If Ife all together is 10,600th but the new Ife is just 2000, when does the new year in Ife start and end and since what period did you begin your count? To have arrived at 10k and 2K respectively?

3. If present Ife is 2k years old, and it is known the present Ife was started by Oduduwa who far predates Jesus whose birth flaged off the beginning of the 2000 year period. Pray tell how you then come to the conclusion of Ile-Ife, whose political father predates Jesus, is just 2000 years.

4. You said 'There are numerous Ife sites that were dated older than the present Ife. A new Ife was inaugurated 10060 years ago and that Ife has shifted locations pretty much'. Please mention these dated sites?

5. The many artefacts clearly shows there were different periods in the present Ife site considering the pattern of arts that vary by dating. This points to the rise and death of different waves of arts within Ife. The excavated bronze heads not only showed there was rulership pre-Oduduwa, it also showed how they were dressed, marked and their heads were covered. All of these and more point to the fact that Oodaye, Oyelagbo, Otu Ife all existed on the same site Ile-Ife is on. Please tell why you think the dated artefacts are wrong and you are right?

6. Ifa that mentioned Ife Oodaye, Ife Ooye and Otu Ife mentioned places and names that are still in existence in Ife right now. Are you saying Ifa is wrong and you are correct?

Answering these questions will make me capitulate, I necessarily do not enjoy back and forth. It is either I'm tapping into knowledge or I'm sharing new information.

Let me add this:

Ife Oodaye: it was about creation. Who were the actors, Obatala losing to Oduduwa who created Ife/earth.

Ife Ooyelagbo: it was about survival of a flood. Who were the actors? Obatala and Oduduwa and of course the former losing to the latter in the scheme of things.

Otu Ife: this is another term for the present Ile-Ife as used by Orunmila/Ifa/Babalawo

Ile-Ife: the present Ife. Who were the actors? You guessed it. Obatala losing to Oduduwa who invaded the town and truncated the former's reign.

Conclusion: Oodaye o, Oyelagbo o, Otu Ife o are all the same explained from different perspectives mythically but with Ile-Ife dealing with actual human history. Pick the history that suits you but don't muddle anything.

9jacrip:


Does Ijebu Igbo use Awujale?

You keep muddling up everything.

What places was Ijebu Igbo moved to?

Ijebu Igbo is different from Ijebu Ode; the former precedes the latter by far.

If we keep limiting our kings to 51 but you (the other people) believe it is 141 then you must know Ife history more than Ifes, yes?

The 51 kings are all from Oduduwa's dynasty. Starting with Oduduwa himself.

Prior to that there have been up to 90 rulers of a confederacy of hamlets that existed independently of each other - the hamlets and their arrangements are still in Ife.

No migration and nothing was shifted.

Let us not go back and forth unnecessarily, it is becoming boring.

My questions:

1. If Ife Oodaye, Ooyelagbo and Otu were separate towns that existed in different places before the present Ife, kindly tell us where these town existed. Remember you gave a very false claim of Igbomolokun to have been Ife?

2. If Ife all together is 10,600th but the new Ife is just 2000, when does the new year in Ife start and end and since what period did you begin your count? To have arrived at 10k and 2K respectively?

3. If present Ife is 2k years old, and it is known the present Ife was started by Oduduwa who far predates Jesus whose birth flaged off the beginning of the 2000 year period. Pray tell how you then come to the conclusion of Ile-Ife, whose political father predates Jesus, is just 2000 years.

4. You said 'There are numerous Ife sites that were dated older than the present Ife. A new Ife was inaugurated 10060 years ago and that Ife has shifted locations pretty much'. Please mention these dated sites?

5. The many artefacts clearly shows there were different periods in the present Ife site considering the pattern of arts that vary by dating. This points to the rise and death of different waves of arts within Ife. The excavated bronze heads not only showed there was rulership pre-Oduduwa, it also showed how they were dressed, marked and their heads were covered. All of these and more point to the fact that Oodaye, Oyelagbo, Otu Ife all existed on the same site Ile-Ife is on. Please tell why you think the dated artefacts are wrong and you are right?

6. Ifa that mentioned Ife Oodaye, Ife Ooye and Otu Ife mentioned places and names that are still in existence in Ife right now. Are you saying Ifa is wrong and you are correct?

Answering these questions will make me capitulate, I necessarily do not enjoy back and forth. It is either I'm tapping into knowledge or I'm sharing new information.

The Ijebu capital was at Eredo before being relocated to Ijebu Ode. Thats the point and there must have been other capitals as well. The Awujale's palace is now at Ijebu ode but it was at Eredo at one time. I never said Awujale was in Ijebu Igbo, Ijebu Igbo is one of the Ijebu towns.
Answers
1 Ife Ot u was destroyed. No one knows the location. Otu means scattered. Do you know the location? Maybe Ife Oodaye is thesame as Ife Ot u, I am still researching that. Ife Oodaye too has disappeared, what we have now is Ife Ooyelagbo which started off as a remnant or the survivors of the disestablishment or destruction of Ife Oodaye. We now have the Ife Ooyelagbo which was established 10060 years ago. Just like the people in the present Ife have Ife tuntun towards the border of Ondo on their land and may relocate there if they feel like, the old IFE Ooyelagbo too relocated capital a couple of times. All was Ife land, the whole of the Yoruba area and even beyond. The present location was an Ife province called Igbomokun. I believe the 90 kings were Obas of Ife and not that of Igbomokun and if they are of Igbomokun, then Ife must have an even longer King list.

2
The new Yoruba year starts June 3 every year and I believe Oduduwa arrived post Islam since it is just 50 kings ago. Use an average reign length of the last few Obas, then multiply by the number of post Oduduwa Obas to arrive at an approximate date

3
I do not believe Oduduwa predates Jesus, I was just using 2 thousand years ago date as claimed by a commentator on the thread. I believe Oduduwa came after Islam

4
There are many ancient Ife sites like Ife Ijumu in Kogi, Ufeke in Idanre and others in Kwara. Pls research for yourself

5
Ot u may imply a violent end to an advanced civilization. Olodumare ma je ki ile di ahoro mo wa lori. Ilu o ni tu lori wa. You dont have the art or technology of Ot u Ife or Ife Oodaye. What you have is the remnants of Ooyelagbo. A pitiful remnant is what we have.

6
Lagere is in Ife, also in Gbongan. Okesa in Ilesa, also in Ado Ekiti. Ilare in Ot u Ife, also in Oodaye and Ooyelagbo does not make all those places thesame

lawani:

The Ijebu capital was at Eredo before being relocated to Ijebu Ode. Thats the point and there must have been other capitals as well. The Awujale's palace is now at Ijebu ode but it was at Eredo at one time. I never said Awujale was in Ijebu Igbo, Ijebu Igbo is one of the Ijebu towns.
Answers

How can Eredo be capital of Ijebu when it belonged to Ijebu Ode and Ijebu Igbo existed long before Ijebu Ode came into existence? You're basing your argument here on Ijebu Ode that came much later and not attending to Ijebu Igbo the predecessor.

1 Ife Ot u was destroyed. No one knows the location. Otu means scattered. Do you know the location? Maybe Ife Oodaye is thesame as Ife Ot u, I am still researching that. Ife Oodaye too has disappeared, what we have now is Ife Ooyelagbo which started off as a remnant or the survivors of the disestablishment or destruction of Ife Oodaye. We now have the Ife Ooyelagbo which was established 10060 years ago. Just like the people in the present Ife have Ife tuntun towards the border of Ondo on their land and may relocate there if they feel like, the old IFE Ooyelagbo too relocated capital a couple of times. All was Ife land, the whole of the Yoruba area and even beyond. The present location was an Ife province called Igbomokun. I believe the 90 kings were Obas of Ife and not that of Igbomokun and if they are of Igbomokun, then Ife must have an even longer King list.

In what Odu did Ifa mention Otu Ife and Ife Oodaye were destroyed?

How do you know it was established 10060 years ago? A clear design of how you arrived at this date would be nice.

All the Ifes you mentioned all have family compounds and quarters they emigrated from; so you there's no need to ascribe them as independent variations of Ife when they actually branched out of the actual Ife.

Igbomokun was the first Ugbo's (Mahin/Ilaje of Ondo) settlement in Ondo after Oranmiyan came back and seized the throne. Igbomokun was never Ife, Ife was never Igbomokun. They're two separate entities. Igbomokun was established during Oranmiyan's period.

2
The new Yoruba year starts June 3 every year and I believe Oduduwa arrived post Islam since it is just 50 kings ago. Use an average reign length of the last few Obas, then multiply by the number of post Oduduwa Obas to arrive at an approximate date

Fail.

New year in Ife starts in the first week of May.

Oduduwa arrived pre-islam and pre-Jesus.

The excavations say so.

You and I do not know the life expectancy of that era, so using the average reign of the modern king to judge makes no sense.

People lived well above 100 years and reigned well above 50 years on a throne - considering Ife kings didn't have to fight wars (except for Derin who also lived long)

So why not use 50 years reign as a minimum X 50 kings = 2,500 way before Islam and Jesus.

If we decrease it to 30 years reign as a minimum X 50 = 1,500 during the period Islam was struggling to find its feat in Mecca not to mention spreading

3
I do not believe Oduduwa predates Jesus, I was just using 2 thousand years ago date as claimed by a commentator on the thread. I believe Oduduwa came after Islam

OK

After Islam was started by Muhammed or after Islam got to Yoruba land? And when did Islam get to Yoruba land? Do you have a precise date?

4
There are many ancient Ife sites like Ife Ijumu in Kogi, Ufeke in Idanre and others in Kwara. Pls research for yourself

You need to do a surface research of these places and you'd find their founders moved out of Ile-Ife and their compounds are still in Ife till now. None of them precedes Ile-Ife nor are contemporaries with Ile-Ife

.

5
Ot u may imply a violent end to an advanced civilization. Olodumare ma je ki ile di ahoro mo wa lori. Ilu o ni tu lori wa. You dont have the art or technology of Ot u Ife or Ife Oodaye. What you have is the remnants of Ooyelagbo. A pitiful remnant is what we have.

You're almost sounding like Otu Ife, Oodaye and Ooyelagbo indeed existed, they are all mythical expressions.

Technologies and arts from earlier centuries faded, it appears to be the thing with civilizations world over, it does not mean the present Egypt wasn't the original site of its civilization, nor the Sumerians, nor the AmerIndians.

6
Lagere is in Ife, also in Gbongan. Okesa in Ilesa, also in Ado Ekiti. Ilare in Ot u Ife, also in Oodaye and Ooyelagbo does not make all those places thesame

Your argument here is fraudulent.

You created a premise of using names of recent locations derived from an older location to debate the names of old locations in the same locations.

Taking Ifa hierarchy for example as described in Otu Ife:

There's Tedimole awo Ilare, Megbon awo Iremo, Kinrindin awo Idita to mention a few.

The original people who bore these names/played these roles have their family compounds at these locations mentioned and they still exist till today.

Orunmila, in his Otu Ife tales, was said to have gone to Ekiti. The tree he got first ikin from in Ekiti is still standing.

-----------------------------------------------

The problem here is you seem to believe Oduduwa indeed descended from the sky with chain and cock to create earth, you believe there was a flood and Oduduwa descended from Oke Ora with chain, you believe Otu Ife to mean [Ife scattered] rather than Otu Ife being how Babalawo's refer to Ile-Ife in a chant or Odu rather than use 'Ile-Ife.

The problem here is you would rather debate with myths and conjectures rather than verifiable material items you can see, touch and has been generally agreed upon.

saxywale:


I would also rephrase my question as you never answer it:

Question 1:
If you go to Ife today, you would be shown the spot were Oranmiyan was laid to rest. A shrine has been built there not far from where the Obelisk of Oranmiyan stands.
Why did Oranmiyan choose to return to Ife, and reign as the Ooni, despite your claim that going to Ife was demeaning for him?

Question 2:
In 1903 before the formation of Nigeria, why did the other obas reject the Alaafin as judge or the Awujale (since the tussle was in Ijebu domain), but requested for a King in the Yoruba Hinterland, to help settle the dispute involving Elepe of Epe and the Akarigbo of Ijebu-Remo over Elepe’s right to wear a beaded crown?

Question 3:
If Alaafin(Oba Adeyemi Lamidi) was the youngest of the grandsons of Oduduwa, Why are his elder brothers like the Orangun (Oba Adedeji Oyedotun), Omo N'Oba(Erediauwa), Olowu(Adegboyega Amororo) e.t.c not claiming superiority?
If Alaafin Adeyemi was claiming superiority based on ancient or past Military conquest, then the Olubadan should be claiming superiority too over the Alaafin, since Ibadan later became an authority with military strength, or the Ekiti parapo that later defeated the Ibadan during the kiriji war.

Question 4:
How can the Alaafin appoint an Ooni,when he was not even the oldest of Oduduwa's lineage? Can the Olowu appoint an Ooni?
Also Oduduwa himself was an Ooni, so how can a lesser king appoint someone to an higher throne? Can the Olota of Ota appoint the Olu of Ilaro(paramount ruler of Yewaland)?

Question 5:
This is no struggle at all. The picture shows someone bowing to an higher authority. Why is that so?
Note: Oba Lamidi Adeyemi became an Oba in 1970.
Oba Aderemi was governor between 1960 and 1962.
This is no struggle as you claimed in your post?

Since you dodged the first set of questions by giving us a ''tales by moonlight story'' of an unknown woman and her slave child, I decided to add two more questions.

Question 6:
What has Oyo got to show as Oranmiyan's legacy (his sacred staff - Opa - and tombs are still in Ile Ife today)?

Question 7:
If Alaafin is superior to Oonife, why did Alaafin Aole(Awole), during the time of Oyo's military reign, commit suicide (having committed unpardonable sacrilege) after attacking a town directly under Ile Ife?

Egbon you'll kill someone with these questions o

9jacrip:




Uncle Lawani, you need to pump your brakes with this Oluwo thesis.

The only name close to Oluwo is Luwoo and she was an Ooni many years after Oduduwa had long gone.

It is obvious your knowledge of Yoruba is on the surface, I intentionally didn't drop the bomb on the actual woman Oduduwa impregnated, I waited with hopes you would come back with it but you didn't. It tells me a lot I needed to know.

The woman Oduduwa impregnated was Orunto, this is the family where the Obalufe is picked and my paternal grandma is from the Jaojo line of the 4 lines of the compound.

Drop this Oluwo already and quit giving it unnecessary rendition.

Ife, with or without the Europeans was never going to decline. If it would, the exit of Oduduwa's sons and the passing of Oduduwa would have placed Ife in the coffin of decline. The rise of Bini, Oyo, Ijesa, Ekiti, Ibadan and the incessant Modakeke beef would have brought about or hasten Ife's decline, yet it still stands and her relevance stays reverberating all over the world even in the academia.

I don't know why you keep bandying the 're-incarnation' idea.
Everyone in my compound, depending on your level of depth in Obatala worship or knowledge of Oogun gets called all types of names. One of my uncles who passed recently was called Aje Orisa (Obatala was called that), does this mean a reincarnation? No. You can pick up whatever name suits you and choose to be called/known by it.

The Ogun that reigned after Oduduwa was Obatala's son, likewise Obalufon 1 and Obalufon 2. Obamakin was Obalufon's brother.

Issuing orders does not necessarily mean political, it leans much more towards military. Timi of Ede issued orders, does this make the seat of timi much more politically relevant than that of Ife or put it at peer with Ibadan seat? No.

Owu's original site was Owu Ipole beside Apomu, the ruins are there. It was from here they moved to Ibadan and other places.
I co-researched Owu history with someone so I'm well aware of the details.

Whatever child Orunto birthed by Oduduwa did not ascend the throne.

Thank you sir.

Go research Orunto if you have contact in Ife traditional circles.

I'm still shocked over this Obatala/Ogun relationship. . I've always told you Obalufon was a son of Obatala, you didn't believe

Adimula would be the son of Orunto. .I'm I right?

9jacrip. I don't think archeological findings at Ife should begin with Oduduwa. .. afterall there was Ife before Oduduwa
Ife existed in the BC but certainly Oduduwa the first Ooni was not around that early in time. we would have to look at 11th- 13th century AD not earlier, not later

macof:


Egbon you'll kill someone with these questions o

9jacrip:



The Ijebu capital was at Eredo before being relocated to Ijebu Ode. Thats the point and there must have been other capitals as well. The Awujale's palace is now at Ijebu ode but it was at Eredo at one time. I never said Awujale was in Ijebu Igbo, Ijebu Igbo is one of the Ijebu towns.
Answers



1 Ife Ot u was destroyed. No one knows the location. Otu means scattered. Do you know the location? Maybe Ife Oodaye is thesame as Ife Ot u, I am still researching that. Ife Oodaye too has disappeared, what we have now is Ife Ooyelagbo which started off as a remnant or the survivors of the disestablishment or destruction of Ife Oodaye. We now have the Ife Ooyelagbo which was established 10060 years ago. Just like the people in the present Ife have Ife tuntun towards the border of Ondo on their land and may relocate there if they feel like, the old IFE Ooyelagbo too relocated capital a couple of times. All was Ife land, the whole of the Yoruba area and even beyond. The present location was an Ife province called Igbomokun. I believe the 90 kings were Obas of Ife and not that of Igbomokun and if they are of Igbomokun, then Ife must have an even longer King list.



2
The new Yoruba year starts June 3 every year and I believe Oduduwa arrived post Islam since it is just 50 kings ago. Use an average reign length of the last few Obas, then multiply by the number of post Oduduwa Obas to arrive at an approximate date



3
I do not believe Oduduwa predates Jesus, I was just using 2 thousand years ago date as claimed by a commentator on the thread. I believe Oduduwa came after Islam



4
There are many ancient Ife sites like Ife Ijumu in Kogi, Ufeke in Idanre and others in Kwara. Pls research for yourself

.

5
Ot u may imply a violent end to an advanced civilization. Olodumare ma je ki ile di ahoro mo wa lori. Ilu o ni tu lori wa. You dont have the art or technology of Ot u Ife or Ife Oodaye. What you have is the remnants of Ooyelagbo. A pitiful remnant is what we have.



6
Lagere is in Ife, also in Gbongan. Okesa in Ilesa, also in Ado Ekiti. Ilare in Ot u Ife, also in Oodaye and Ooyelagbo does not make all those places thesame

If this Ile Ife is disestablished and relocated to North or South America, the Ifa Awos will insist on naming new quarters in the new city after quarters in the old city. Isn't that apparent. That is why those quarters that existed in ancient Ife now exists in Ife Ooye.

People may have lived longer thousands of years ago and I believe so because so many accounts say so but no proof however as at five thousand years ago, lifespan has become what we have today. So your 51 Kings ago can not be more than 1500 years ago at 30 years per King. There were Oonis that died on the coronation day, so given that range, they all had normal lifespans but if you incorporate the earlier 90 kings, the earlier ones may have lived longer, so the king list can cover the Yoruba calendar of 10060. Pls research Yoruba calendar and direct your questions on it to the scholars behind it. Use google.

There may be misconceptions and misunderstandings but myths are not lies. They are trying to pass messages. Think deeply on them. Don't dismiss ur ancestors as fools. Thanks.

Ijebu Igbo may be older but the capital was shifted to Ijebu Ode. The Awujale used to reign in Eredo. Bilqis Sungbo reigned in Eredo and the ruins are still there.

I believe Oduduwa may have been driven out of Mecca by Mohammed himself and would have known the man. That will mean he arrived in the 7th century.

Ile Ife is relatively new. All town names prefixed with Ile are new. Towns were not prefixed with ile but ode in the past. Even Look at Itsekiri, they call their place Ode Itsekiri before ile became popular.

Egypt was established around 5000 years ago while Ife Ooyelagbo was established 10060 years ago according to the Yoruba calendar. They also moved capital around. All empires do that.

Ife is supposed to be the first human civilization, so saying it began 51 Kings ago or a few thousand years ago while dismissing what you are supposed to be the custodian of as myth is rather unfortunate

lawani:


If this Ile Ife is disestablished and relocated to North or South America, the Ifa Awos will insist on naming new quarters in the new city after quarters in the old city. Isn't that apparent. That is why those quarters that existed in ancient Ife now exists in Ife Ooye.

People may have lived longer thousands of years ago and I believe so because so many accounts say so but no proof however as at five thousand years ago, lifespan has become what we have today. So your 51 Kings ago can not be more than 1500 years ago at 30 years per King. There were Oonis that died on the coronation day, so given that range, they all had normal lifespans but if you incorporate the earlier 90 kings, the earlier ones may have lived longer, so the king list can cover the Yoruba calendar of 10060. Pls research Yoruba calendar and direct your questions on it to the scholars behind it. Use google.

There may be misconceptions and misunderstandings but myths are not lies. They are trying to pass messages. Think deeply on them. Don't dismiss ur ancestors as fools. Thanks.

Ijebu Igbo may be older but the capital was shifted to Ijebu Ode. The Awujale used to reign in Eredo. Bilqis Sungbo reigned in Eredo and the ruins are still there.

I believe Oduduwa may have been driven out of Mecca by Mohammed himself and would have known the man. That will mean he arrived in the 7th century.

Ile Ife is relatively new. All town names prefixed with Ile are new. Towns were not prefixed with ile but ode in the past. Even Look at Itsekiri, they call their place Ode Itsekiri before ile became popular.

Egypt was established around 5000 years ago while Ife Ooyelagbo was established 10060 years ago according to the Yoruba calendar. They also moved capital around. All empires do that.

Ife is supposed to be the first human civilization, so saying it began 51 Kings ago or a few thousand years ago while dismissing what you are supposed to be the custodian of as myth is rather unfortunate

1. And they brought the artefacts with them and buried them deep in the ground and forgot about them abi? You must think Ifa wasn't to record occureces in Ife (spiritual and factual). Ifa talked about each migration and human interaction but somehow forgot to talk about the different migration phases abi? Well done.

2. You're using Google to research Yoruba claendar? And you must have gotten from google that new years in Ife starts June abi? . You mentioned there's no proof for longer life span, can you apply this logic to everything you've been saying. Talk about the ones with proof only.

3. Myths are not lies. Myths are mostly spiritual and they do not exceed that purpose.

4. And what am I supposed to make of Ijebu Ode when the argument has been about Ijebu Igbo remaining on its original site.

5. I'm starting to suspect you're a Muslim. Oduduwa had nothing to do with Mecca. Go to Ora in Ife, his people there will tell you his history. You just sit in your house and make claim or tells us what you believe - are you like some authority or you lived in this period?

6. Oduduwa came between 10th/11th C

7. what is the proof to convince us of this? You claim Ode means old settlements but Ijebu Ode is recent and Itsekiri is a splinter group from Ijebu, another recent town. There's Ode Iremo, another recent town.

8. Ooyelagbo/Oodaye were mythical explanations of the tradition of origin. Ask yourself why in Ooyelagbo/Oodaye it was about creation and Obatala losing? This is common sense. Otu-Ife is used interchangeably with Ile-Ife with Babalawo.

'Wan nna Babalawo l'otu 'fe - wan kin na babalawo ni ile-Ife.'

9. 51 kings since Oduduwa came is my argument.

10. Egypt remained on the same site throughout its years, capital was moved, yes. Your claim here is Ife keeps shifting location its entire self but artefacts say otherwise and the location the palace is sited says otherwise, the Igbo Ogbe (Obatala's palace sire at Iranje Oko) says otherwise, the Ugbo settlement in Mokuro says otherwise, the arrangement of each clan settlements' sites say otherwise.

Separate myths of reasonable history, don't confuse people.

Ifa said so many things, it depends on the individual to take the actual history from the myth.

Ifa talks about opele being a bad servant whom he hit with iroke and he broke into 8 pieces. Do you believe this is actual history?

Ifa says Obatala got drunk in Ooyelagbo and Oodaye but another version says he was a drunk who lost battle and was marched out with taunts of palm wine - common sense requires I go with the latter.

Ifa never mentioned anything about Mecca, Lamrudu or Middle East (yet you believe this version is true), Ifa mentioned Oke Ora and heaven descent - common sense requires you look at Oke Ora which had long existed in Ife.

I really do not have time nor energy for fairy tales.
If nothinf reasonable is being brought forward I may have to quit with these conversation.

macof:


I'm still shocked over this Obatala/Ogun relationship. . I've always told you Obalufon was a son of Obatala, you didn't believe

Adimula would be the son of Orunto. .I'm I right?

Maybe he is but admiula didn't not smell nor sit on the throne. Maybe he started the 'Obalufe' throne considering the role Obalufe plays as though he shares the throne with Ooni in Ife.

Yes, you did egbon mi. I just like to leave details of facts on ground as they are till further research adds more knowledge.

macof:
9jacrip. I don't think archeological findings at Ife should begin with Oduduwa. .. afterall there was Ife before Oduduwa
Ife existed in the BC but certainly Oduduwa the first Ooni was not around that early in time. we would have to look at 11th- 13th century AD not earlier, not later

I'm saying archeological findings put Ife pre-Oduduwa on the same site. I'm not limiting the findings to Oduduwa o, the findings puncture holes in uncle lawani's claims of Ife shifting base from Ugbomokun (Ugbo's settlement in Ondo) to present Ile Ife - then to Ife moving to different places with no names of these places

Oduduwa's period was between 10th/11th.

9jacrip:


1. And they brought the artefacts with them and buried them deep in the ground and forgot about them abi? You must think Ifa wasn't to record occureces in Ife (spiritual and factual). Ifa talked about each migration and human interaction but somehow forgot to talk about the different migration phases abi? Well done.

2. You're using Google to research Yoruba claendar? And you must have gotten from google that new years in Ife starts June abi? . You mentioned there's no proof for longer life span, can you apply this logic to everything you've been saying. Talk about the ones with proof only.

3. Myths are not lies. Myths are mostly spiritual and they do not exceed that purpose.

4. And what am I supposed to make of Ijebu Ode when the argument has been about Ijebu Igbo remaining on its original site.

5. I'm starting to suspect you're a Muslim. Oduduwa had nothing to do with Mecca. Go to Ora in Ife, his people there will tell you his history. You just sit in your house and make claim or tells us what you believe - are you like some authority or you lived in this period?

6. Oduduwa came between 10th/11th C

7. what is the proof to convince us of this? You claim Ode means old settlements but Ijebu Ode is recent and Itsekiri is a splinter group from Ijebu, another recent town. There's Ode Iremo, another recent town.

8. Ooyelagbo/Oodaye were mythical explanations of the tradition of origin. Ask yourself why in Ooyelagbo/Oodaye it was about creation and Obatala losing? This is common sense. Otu-Ife is used interchangeably with Ile-Ife with Babalawo.

'Wan nna Babalawo l'otu 'fe - wan kin na babalawo ni ile-Ife.'

9. 51 kings since Oduduwa came is my argument.

10. Egypt remained on the same site throughout its years, capital was moved, yes. Your claim here is Ife keeps shifting location its entire self but artefacts say otherwise and the location the palace is sited says otherwise, the Igbo Ogbe (Obatala's palace sire at Iranje Oko) says otherwise, the Ugbo settlement in Mokuro says otherwise, the arrangement of each clan settlements' sites say otherwise.

Separate myths of reasonable history, don't confuse people.

Ifa said so many things, it depends on the individual to take the actual history from the myth.

Ifa talks about opele being a bad servant whom he hit with iroke and he broke into 8 pieces. Do you believe this is actual history?

Ifa says Obatala got drunk in Ooyelagbo and Oodaye but another version says he was a drunk who lost battle and was marched out with taunts of palm wine - common sense requires I go with the latter.

Ifa never mentioned anything about Mecca, Lamrudu or Middle East (yet you believe this version is true), Ifa mentioned Oke Ora and heaven descent - common sense requires you look at Oke Ora which had long existed in Ife.

I really do not have time nor energy for fairy tales.
If nothinf reasonable is being brought forward I may have to quit with these conversation.

How many Ifa verses do you know that you are saying something is not in the Ifa corpus? No one knows all the contents of the Ifa corpus and it continues to grow. They are just stories to guide people and all oral history of the Yoruba could as well be referred to as part of the corpus but I am not saying they are. I will not say the Oduduwa from Mecca story is a lie neither would I say the Awujale from Waddai story is a lie too. Who am I to say such? Only people like you say such things while your ancestors turn in their graves. If the Mecca story were a lie. It means the Lamurudu (Nimrod) is also a lie. How did that name enter Yoruba oral history? The man of analysis? Nimrod was not mentioned by name in the Quran, so it was not from there. I put it to you that Oduduwa was a middle Eastern monarch who was driven out. So why not Mecca? Oh! You have to find reason to believe your ancestors were fools. Sorry. Oduduwa envisaged characters like you, so he dropped the name Nimrod.

I did not say Ode means old city sir. Comprehension? Ode was used to refer to urban settlements in the past. The Yoruba way of saying 'the city of Ibadan' was 'Ode Ibadan' in the past. To say you are exiting the city, you say 'M o nlo is ehin odi'
Ehin odi meaning behind the walls and etc.

If you will be saying Obatala Obataasa Oba patapata lode Iranje lived in the 11th century, then you should shut up and not be talking about Ife. If you will be saying Ife, this present Ife is the location since the beginning of time, then you have failed totally and should be sacked by your superiors.

Many Ifa stories were gotten in dreams by scholars and inputted in the corpus all thesame. Iba Awonamaja Babalawo ti nkomo ni Ifa loju oorun. Awonamaja teaches Ifa to children in dreams and the stories are put in the corpus indiscriminately. Ifa verses do contradict themselves but it does not mean they are lies. Obatala might be a woman then later a man. All orisas have manifested millions of times.

When relocating Ife, it may not be possible to take all the legacies. The new Ife will make new artifacts. What is important are the people that will pass on the stories. Cheers

Cyojunior:
BEFORE YORUBA HISTORY IS DISTORTED
All human beings are equal before God; the Almighty. He is
our Sustainer. The Creator of the worlds. However, God in
His infinite wisdom has created man and placed some
above others. It is a providential design to achieve universal
order, harmony and peace. He has placed the kings over
their subjects to ensure coordination. I love history, and I
loathe history being distorted. I am neither an ethnic
chauvinist nor jingoist. But I have special affinity for history.
It is worrisome when people concoct genres of myth in the
face of impeccable facts. I wish to delve a bit into in the
history of Obaship in Yorubaland ,with a special focus on
His Imperial Majesty, The Alaafin of Oyo and His Royal
Highness, The Ooni of Ile-Ife.
History has been so kind and friendly to the Alaafin that he
does not need to get into any battle for supremacy with any
Oba, either in Yorubaland or anywhere in the universe. No
other Oba had combined humility with royalty to meet the
demands of modernity like the incumbent Alaafin of Oyo,
His Imperial Majesty, Kabiyesi Iku Baba Yeye,Oba Lamidi
Olayiwola Adeyemi III .
According to impregnable sources of Yoruba history,
Oduduwa is the ancestor of the Yorubas. Oduduwa gave
birth to a son, Okanbi. Okanbi gave birth to seven male
children (Oranmiyan, Olowu, Alaketu, Onisabe, Orangun,
Olupopo, Oba Benin). Nowhere in history is Ooni
mentioned as one of the Yoruba Royal Families. The Ooni is
no blood relation of the seven sons of Okanbi. Historically,
Ooni has no traditional or political authority in the Yoruba
hierarchy. Riches and political fame of the Ooni from
1954_when Ooni Adesoji Aderemi was made the Governor
of Western Region by the Awolowo Administration cannot
undo the pristine history or invalidate the truth about the
Yoruba race.
History has acquainted us with copious facts that Ooni is
known to have been appointed by the Alaafin as the
custodian and keeper of the rituals and oratory of the gods
in Ile-Ife. The stool of Ooni was never known to be big on
hereditary kingship. Oonis have been the descendants of
Adimu the Olorisa, instead of being the direct descendants
of Oduduwa. The Alaafins of Oyo have been the paramount
kings and rulers of the Yorubas. Alaafin, in recognition of
his leadership,had intervened in numerous boundary
disputes involving the territories of the Ooni and Owa
Obokun of Ijeshaland
Some years back, when Oba of Benin visited Ile-Ife, the
comments made by Ooni Sijuade (I am happy to welcome
back my son and brother to the land of our ancestor,
Oduduwa) was quickly refuted by the Oba , through his
response:"who is the son of who?"
Moreover, The British as it was in their tradition recognized
lineage as meaning supremacy and legitimacy, preferring to
sign the Treaty of Cessation with the Alaafin as the Head of
the Yoruba Nation.
Also, on August 8th,1960, when Sir Adesoji Aderemi held
sway as the Ooni of Ife, Alaafin Bello Gbadegesin Ladigbolu
II was appointed the Chairman of the Council of Obas for
two years, Oba Adesoji never batted an eyelid. In 1962,
when Ooni had ceased to be Governor, he reverted to his
traditional stool and was attending the meetings of Obas
which had The Alaafin as the Chairman. When the first term
of Alaafin Gbadegesin expired, he was reappointed for
another two-year term. The Alaafin was reappointed for the
third time in 1965 until the military struck.
In 1966, Lt Colonel Adeyinka Adebayo made the Ooni
Chairman and the Alaafin his Deputy. Only the
Alaafin,among other Obas, protested the awkward
appointment and sought redress, as Alaafin does not play a
second fiddle to any Oba in Yorubaland. In 1976, the
military government had to reinstate the Alaafin as the
Chairman of the Council.
It is also a distortion to address the Ooni as "His Imperial
Majesty". This is another gaffe! Only the Alaafin is
addressed as His/Your Imperial Majesty. You cannot
assume the title when you have no empire you rule over.
Alaafin ruled over a vast empire (From Ilorin to Dahomey
and to some parts of Ghana; Ashanti) while Ooni did not
have that royal privilege.The Ooni is better addressed as
His/Your Royal Highness. This is history,my people!
The preeminence and supremacy of the Alaafin is obvious
from the above assertions and as deeply espoused in many
Yoruba books of history. We should not distort the history
by pitching the Alaafin against the Ooni. Oba Adeyeye
Ogunwusi made an unequivocal statement on his
coronation day that he was not into any supremacy contest
with the Alaafin. Therefore, Alaafin remains the undisputed
leader of all Yoruba monarchs.

What caused the down fall of oyo.?. there was a time in history alafin was not crown for long years because there was dispute between ife and Oyo.. Oyo attacked apomu and aggravate the anger of the living god onirisa that is the major down fall of Oyo empire..... Ife is the source the home of Oyo. Oranmiyan the founder of oyo died and buried in ile-ife ..he was also an Oni of ife before he died ... oni of ife stool is highly revered in Yoruba land , in the old alafin can never be crown without oni of ife sanctification .. the royal family in ife are direct decendant of oduduwa ..all the deities worship in Yoruba land have their linage still in ile-ife ..obatala ogun ,and orunmila ..

Even the founder of oyo left his son to become king in Oyo to come back home to be oni he knew our revered the stool is he can't be fulfilled and make his mark in history of Yoruba without becoming the Oni of ife ..the greatness of Oyo started from ife through oranmiyan a great warrior that expand the territory of ile-ife that gave birth to Oyo.. the glory of Oyo empire belongs to ile ife ..The stool of the son can't be greater than the stool of the father ..The source of all kings in Yoruba land the crown that gave both to all... Alade okikiribiti